US Colleges Say Hiring US Students a Bad Deal 490
theodp writes "Many US colleges and universities have notices posted on their websites informing US companies that they're tax chumps if they hire students who are US citizens. 'In fact, a company may save money by hiring international students because the majority of them are exempt from Social Security (FICA) and Medicare tax requirements,' advises the taxpayer-supported University of Pittsburgh (pdf) as it makes the case against hiring its own US students. You'll find identical pitches made by the University of Delaware, the University of Cincinnati, Kansas State University, the University of Southern California, the University of Wisconsin, Iowa State University, and other public colleges and universities. The same message is also echoed by private schools, such as John Hopkins University, Brown University, Rollins College and Loyola University Chicago."
Solution? (Score:3, Insightful)
brain drain (Score:2, Insightful)
i thought the US needed to encourage more and better American citizens to go to college and become scientists and engineers...
looks like our educational institutions have said, "f that".
i say, "f them"
(i'm not opposed to immigration or people coming to get an education and leave, but i don't think my tax dollars should pay for these colleges to actively sabotage my kids' chances at getting a job.)
Don't blame the universities (Score:5, Insightful)
Lou Dobbs Dot (Score:5, Insightful)
I seem to have wandered into LouDobbsDot by accident.
These students I am sure are paying well to be attending those universities and part of that fee is towards support services for their interests.
It doesn't seem unreasonable to me for those services to highlight whatever advantages these students have, because they probably have a lot of disadvantages in language and local knowledge.
Amazing (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Odd, to say the least. (Score:3, Insightful)
They get more money from out of state students than they get from local students. They get even more money from out of country students than in-country students.
They want more students alright... just more of the big-money students is all.
Mod Summary Troll. (Score:5, Insightful)
Since Brown is literally up the road from me, I decided to click on Brown's PDF first, and then the others. I thought maybe there was a breaking story I could submit to the Providence Journal so they could get the whole state of Rhode Island up in arms.
The summary doesn't match the language of the PDFs in the least.
I don't have enough middle fingers for this summary. It's massive troll.
Does that sound like employers can avoid taxes by hiring foreign students? I don't think so, Bob.
--
BMO
Kneejerk reaction. (Score:5, Insightful)
This article is trolling. Move on.
Re:Don't blame the universities (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Huh? (Score:2, Insightful)
The private Universities can do what they want, but the public taxpayer funded organizations shouldn't be saying "Hire people who pay less tax", they should be saying "Congress, change the laws to make it a level playing field"
Would you want them to lie? (Score:0, Insightful)
The published information for the most part is accurate. The fact that the U.S. workplace law system has devolved to a point where there are significant disadvantages to hiring a citizen is a problem with the system, not with the universities who point out this fact.
In other news, there are even more significant patent law, employment law, liability, insurance cost, employment cost, and tax advantages if you relocate your business outside the U.S. The fact that this is also true is not my fault. Don't kill the messenger, reform the government that led to this mess. In an age where both jobs and companies are free to roam the world, most will settle in places where the cost/benefit ratio of local government is optimal. Unfortunately I can't think of many U.S. states that aren't economic and legal basket-cases at the moment, trying to tax and legislate themselves into oblivion. YMMV.
Re:All the proof I needed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:All the proof I needed (Score:5, Insightful)
Spin job! (Score:2, Insightful)
Wow, great spin job!
Its a fact that FICA and Medicare often don't have to be paid for international students. This is federal law, so it's not surprising that more than one university describes the same factual situation that applies across the country. This is not under the control of the universities.
Note that, due to the various issues with visas, paperwork, etc., international students often struggle to find employment, and so its not unreasonable for universities to advocate on their behalf. Universities also typically have an entire career services group that helps all the American students, so they are hardly neglected.
It takes a fair amount of cynicism (I know, I know, its /.) to spin a university's attempt to support their international students into an attack on their American students.
If you really care about this issue, you should just aggitate against the tax law itself.
Re:Solution? (Score:2, Insightful)
The right solution is to overhaul the US tax system so it is no longer confiscatory.
Early 20th century the US government tool ~3% of GDP. During that time the US was quickly headed towards becoming the dominant world manufacturing power.
Fast forward to today. Government is threatening to take over 40+ to even 50+ % of GDP. This requires raising taxes. It's becoming easier and easier to find other countries that are more business friendly. The only way to stay in the US and stay profitable is to play the system.
If government policy doesn't change regarding GDP but the tax system tightens up, you'll find even more companies choosing to leave the US entirely.
A solution: fix the tax system (switch to individual income tax only collected only by the states with some % of that revenue passing from the state to the fed), reduce the government back down to sub 10% of GDP. That policy would cause a dramatic flow of business back into the US.
Re:brain drain (Score:3, Insightful)
> looks like our educational institutions have said, "f that".
The job of universities is to point out reality, not fantasy. So if it truly is more expensive to hire American students, they should be saying so, just like they should be providing evidence for global warming even though there are people who would rather deny it.
Populist outrage on Slashdot? Sigh. (Score:4, Insightful)
Did Lou Dobbs submit that? Please preserve /. from this nonsense; I thought this website was supposed to post "Stuff that matters". All this post offers is an outlet for outrage, self-righteousness, and ugly xenophobia -- natural human traits, but not healthy or helpful ones that we benefit from encouraging. How many people have those websites affected? Isn't there something more consequential going on, that we can put on the front page of /.?
CUT Taxes don't increase them (Score:3, Insightful)
Here is a radical option, drop FICA and Medicare taxes, seeing that College age students will never benefit from the programs because they will be long broke by the time the students reach retirement. Combined that with dropping the aggregate (State + Federal) Corporate tax rate to less than 10% and you will see Companies rushing into the US, bye bye 10% unemployment.
Unfortunately, we are headed in the exact opposite direction with a Government take over of health care. Taxes are going to go through the roof to support all of the spending going on and the US will still not be able to reach it's obligations. Combined that with Cap and Tax [wsj.com], and other countries are starting to look a lot better then the US, especially India and China (sense they don't have the same emissions requirements under Kyoto because they are "developing" countries)
So no, raising taxes in the middle of a recession is not the answer, We are already why to the right on the Laffer Curve [wikipedia.org] and going further to the right is just going to push up unemployment more.
Re:Solution? (Score:3, Insightful)
Or you could move to a sales tax instead, giving the consumer everything they make and letting them make the decision on which company is actually giving them a better product to spend their money on. Domestic and Foreign students all have to buy goods and services and nobody would be left out. Government would have to encourage business to keep the money coming in. Capitalism can start working again. Businesses won't have to hire teams of accountants to figure out which tax brackets every employee falls in and which deductions they need to take. I believe some people call this the flat tax... or is it the fair tax?
(Also, reducing govt. overhead so we aren't paying 50% sales tax would help.)
Re:Tax Exempt? (Score:3, Insightful)
You're mistaken.
Most have an F-1 visa, with which they get one year of employment after graduation. During that year, they apply for an H1.
Re:Huh? (Score:1, Insightful)
No, its more like the apple grower is paying a PR firm who works for both apple growers and orange growers.
The international students are also paying the university, in addition to the state residents, and the university naturally will promote both groups.
Re:Solution? (Score:1, Insightful)
Let me guess: you're not in the 10%, are you?
Re:Would you want them to lie? (Score:3, Insightful)
The fact that the U.S. workplace law system has devolved to a point where there are significant disadvantages to hiring a citizen is a problem with the system, not with the universities who point out this fact.
That's misleading. If you're a tiny company, and want to hire a foreigner, there's a lot of paperwork to do. What the documents are saying is that if you hire them only temporarily (i.e. they don't need to apply for a green card and will leave in 6 years), then there is little work. But if you want to keep that employee, you need to sponsor him. And that takes money and paperwork and can be a headache compared to simply hiring an American.
Furthermore, if they hire for a job that simply requires a BS, they run the risk of the H1-B cap (FYI, if they hire a student, they apply for an H1 after hiring). Two years ago, roughly half of those who applied didn't get it. So now they lose the relatively new hire and have to go through the headache of finding another person.
Re:Solution? (Score:5, Insightful)
a sales tax does not make the congressman a middleman with sufficient power
Re:Tax Exempt? (Score:3, Insightful)
With the way the recession is currently in the US, it makes no sense for the US govt. to not only allow, but, in some cases expedite bringing foreigners in (or letting them in willy nilly across the border illegally) to fill jobs that our own citizens are in desperate need of...
I don't see that a state funded school should be allowed by the taxpayers of that state to promote the hiring of foreign people over US citizens either...that's not what my tax dollars should be going for...
Re:Solution? (Score:3, Insightful)
I searched the links to find evidence that colleges were treating American students worse and promoting outsourcing.
I did not find this. And even my own college's page was very reasonable and straight-to-the-facts.
"Many US colleges and universities have notices posted on their websites informing US companies that they're tax chumps if they hire students who are US citizens."
Sorry, Slashdot, but the link to my college doesn't send this message. Cut the crap with the yellow journalism already.
Re:Tax Exempt? (Score:4, Insightful)
Who said the government ever makes sense?
Seriously. Look at Microsoft - they've been pushing outsourced (e.g. "revolving temp agency hiring") and overseas-sourced (how many times did Bill Gates lie his ass off claiming he "couldn't find" people trained to do things here while pushing for H1-B increases?) for years now. I have a friend who just spent three years "working for Microsoft", but he was actually hired by a temp agency (along with 80% of the people in his building) and forced to work "Shifts" with 90-day breaks in between "hirings" to avoid MS or the temp agency having to pay out certain benefits.
Of course we should be making it better on taxes to hire American workers than foreign workers, and that doesn't just go for visa holders; we should be taxing companies that use outsourced labor overseas, too. If they don't want to pay the tax, they can move their factories and resources back to the States.
Michael Dell is too cheap to pay for labor in the country that made him rich. I think the government owes him a reality check on behalf of US.
Re:Tax Exempt? (Score:5, Insightful)
With the way the recession is currently in the US, it makes no sense for the US govt. to not only allow, but, in some cases expedite bringing foreigners in (or letting them in willy nilly across the border illegally) to fill jobs that our own citizens are in desperate need of...
That makes little sense, but I approve. In fact, as somebody who lives in Europe, I encourage every smart, qualified worker who doesn't feel welcome in the US to come over here. We'll get out of these economic problems by having smart people do innovative things. It doesn't really matter where they were born, but it does matter where they work.
I don't see that a state funded school should be allowed by the taxpayers of that state to promote the hiring of foreign people over US citizens either...that's not what my tax dollars should be going for...
So you're saying that universities should promote political opinions instead of the truth?
Re:Solution? (Score:1, Insightful)
If you have a masters in political science, you SHOULD be working at mcds. Thats the definition of a waste of money and time.
Re:Tax Exempt? (Score:5, Insightful)
Or you could ... I dunno .... maybe SIMPLIFY THE TAX CODE and get rid of these dumb laws which create these idiotic problems in the first place? How much longer do you expect to be able to keep adding bandaids on top of one another?
Re:Solution? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm curious as to your source for your facts.
Fact Sheets: Taxes History of the U.S. Tax System [treas.gov]
1918 - Tax rates set at 25% of GDP
1920s - Tax rate reduced to 13% of GDP
1932 through 1936 - Tax rates increased, by 1940 tax rate at 6.8% of GDP
1941 - 7.6% of GDP
1944 - 20.9% of GDP
1945 - 20.4% of GDP
1950 - 14.4%
1952 - 19%
1960s through 1970s - 19.4% up to 20.8%
1986 - 17.5%
1990 - 18%
2000 - 20.8%
R Davis' receipts and outlays plots [att.net]
1950 through 2008 - Tax rate varied from 14.5% to 20.8% of GDP
List of countries by tax revenue as percentage of GDP [wikipedia.org]
United States - Tax rate at 28.2% of GDP
Total Tax Burden Is Rising to Highest Level in History [heritage.org]
1965 through 2008 - Tax rate varied from 15.5% to 20.9% of GDP
Even the Heritage Foundation that continually makes mind numbingly brain dead conclusions that in some cases contradict the charts on their own web site don't show future receipts in the 40% to 50% range. Their end of the world predictions only go as high as 25.5%.
It is also telling that the very worst of times seem to be preceded by tax cuts that resulted in some of the lowest tax rates versus GDP. Note the booming 1920s "The economy boomed during the 1920s and increasing revenues from the income tax followed. This allowed Congress to cut taxes five times," [treas.gov], the tax cuts reduced receipts and were followed with the great depression. Note the booming 1990s followed by the tax cuts during the Bush administration, the reduced receipts and, ta da, massive recession on the brink of depression.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for reducing tax burdens but lets not jump to conclusions and assume simply cutting taxes will instil wealth and prosperity into the heartland. In fact to the contrary, the facts show that something else is occurring along with the tax cuts that results in a detrimental affect to the working class and their ability to make a living.
Re:Huh? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Tax Exempt? (Score:3, Insightful)
That makes little sense, but I approve. In fact, as somebody who lives in Europe, I encourage every smart, qualified worker who doesn't feel welcome in the US to come over here. We'll get out of these economic problems by having smart people do innovative things. It doesn't really matter where they were born, but it does matter where they work.
I wish it were that easy. Where is this elusive "work" you speak of? From where I sit, there is no hiring growth in 1st world countries. Requirement #1 for hiring is "low cost geography".
Re:Tax Exempt? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Do not take things out of context! What the document says is companies might save some money if they hire foreigners on F-1 or J-1 visas. It is just so foreigners _who_study_in_the_United_States_ can find a job since employers seem to be under the impression that hiring a foreigner is a hassle."
With the way the recession is currently in the US, it makes no sense for the US govt. to not only allow, but, in some cases expedite bringing foreigners in (or letting them in willy nilly across the border illegally) to fill jobs that our own citizens are in desperate need of...
These particular foreigners have come to study at universities here. The universities bring foreign students over for a number of reasons:
* It makes it easier for our students to study in foreign countries when they want to.
* Different academic emphases in different cultures lead to students who bring a fresh perspective and a different set of background knowledge to research and inquiry.
* Foreign students are usually required to pay not just non-resident tuition, but an even higher additional fee to public universities.
* Positive experiences studying in the US send foreign students home with a new take on American culture and values. It's a fairly cheap and easy method of exporting democracy to certain parts of the world.
Our own university system would suffer if we ended international student recruitment. Unfortunately, because studying at US institutions is so expensive, many foreign students need to be able to find jobs to work while they're in school. Therefore, those programs are threatened by bigoted or ignorant employers who have something against hiring foreign students. (They're also threatened by DHS procedures that get students placed on the wrong list and have their visas held up for weeks, while their research languishes and in some cases completely expires, losing them a year or more of work.)
Simply not true (Score:4, Insightful)
In fact, the document which is entitled "What Employers Should Know About Hiring International Students" really only speaks to
How did this make it to the front page? It's clearly flamebait.
Re:Tax Exempt? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Tax Exempt? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, if they would start a very honest effort, I'm sure they could find TONS of stuff they could do without. Let's start with some really outdated things they fund? I mean, the just recently got rid of the federal excise tax [arstechnica.com] that used to be on your phone bill that was used to pay for the Spanish-American war. That tax lasted from 1898 till 2006 I believe. Well, there are federal spending dollars going to things like that too. We could start there and drop all spending for programs that are outdated.
No we don't need to cut education dollars first..BUT, why not dismantle the bureaucracy layers above the teachers and schools? I mean, we pay a LOT per student, but, by the time that $$ actually reaches the student, there is very little left for him and the teacher and the school itself. If you could cut out the upteen layers of middle men, I'll be you'd find we could cut spending, and STILL have the student/teacher level realizing more dollars than they do today.
While I do support a safety net for the elderly and the truly infirmed, I don't see a need to subsidize any abled bodied person that can work. If you screwed around and didn't get an education, well the world needs fruit picked and ditches dug. If we put off all the able bodied workers on welfare and entitlement programs, we wouldn't have a need for so many ILLEGAL (there is a difference) alien workers. Taking care of that situation, would also ease the burden that feds and state have to pay for schools and social services that non-citizens use, as well as a large chunk of medical expenditures that we all pay treating illegals here in the US at the emergency rooms that they use for emergency and less than emergency tx.
Have you seen the highway system lately? It isn't looking good. Let's stop subsidizing everyone, the corn farmers, the corporations, all the special interests. We should NOT be giving money out to anyone from the tax coffers. It should only be used for basic government needs and functions. Hell, why do we give money to other countries? I mean, sure, in a time of need emergencies, I don't have a problem with it..like when the tsunami hit, sure you help out. But this constant stream of $$ out of the US is just bribe money for trying to get someone to vote or act our way. Screw that.
There is a fuck-ton load of waste in the bureaucracy of the United States govt.
Unfortunately, I think the only way to get the Fed. to stop spending like a drunken sailor on leave, is for the states to grow some balls, and STOP SENDING MONEY to the federal govt. I think we have to dry up the funds before they will cut the spending.
Re:Tax Exempt? (Score:5, Insightful)
Hey, at least it is ONE govt. program that DOES stimulate the economy and put money back in the hands of the citizens. There is a lot of money to be made in working these military govt. contracts. At least they aren't wasted dollars as bad as some govt. projects are. Good high tech jobs for these dollars, better than subsidies to corn farmers and high fructose corn syrup interests.
Re:Tax Exempt? (Score:4, Insightful)
Or you could ... I dunno .... maybe SIMPLIFY THE TAX CODE and get rid of these dumb laws which create these idiotic problems in the first place? How much longer do you expect to be able to keep adding bandaids on top of one another?
Won't happen. The only reason the populace hasn't overthrown the current government is because the tax code is complicated enough that people don't realize how screwed they are.
Re:brain drain (Score:3, Insightful)
The job of universities is to point out reality, not fantasy.
I thought the job of universities was to bring in enough students to keep the overly priced tuition, housing, food court, and textbook dollars rolling in and give the students enough busy work so that the professors can get back to writing grants for their next pet project. I've had plenty of great teachers, but academia seems to exist in a world largely separated from the real world. The only aspect of reality it prepares you for is the ability to jump through endless bureaucratic hoops.
Re:Tax Exempt? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Tax Exempt? (Score:4, Insightful)
I question the idea that funding of military is good for the economy. Military spending is often on manufacturing of non-renewable items. Items, like bullets and missiles, that need storage when not used and can only be used once(often to destroy objects of value).
As opposed to producing things that have utility value, like fishing nets, rakes, pots/pans, etc.
Yes, intelligence satellites became used for GPS and stuff, but what if money was used for civilian benefitting tasks to begin with? Would it have yielded better economic results
Immigration (Score:1, Insightful)
Awesome, nice work theo. Looks like you got the crowd nice and angry. You should apply to CNN. They may replace Lou Dobbs with you for your cool attempts at spreading falsehood. READ the article people. It doesn't advocate recruiting international students but rather provides guidelines to employers who wish to do so with legal information that they would need.
Having been an international student myself , its funny to see these kinds of antics becoming increasingly more prevalent now. Looks like this is from the people at the Programmers Guild. If the USA does not welcome skilled professionals from the world by pursuing sensible immigration policies, then its days as a technological superpower are numbered. And it could only be a few years before, China, followed by India and maybe other countries in the region such as Singapore (as big as Silicon Valley, and tremendously talented workforce) complete the deed. Currently, it takes close to 10 years for an international student with a standing job say from a blue chip tech company like Intel,Google,Cisco or Microsoft to get a Green Card. That is outright crazy.
Give it a few years. You are already seeing students stopping to come to the US to pursue higher studies. And we are also already seeing a reverse brain drain of talented professionals, a high percentage of whom were trained in US universities, returning to their home countries to pursue opportunities there rather than wait for years to be accepted as permanent residents (green card) here. A few more years and we'll reach a tipping point where the GDP growth in those countries, which is already > 5-6%, will encourage budding entrepeneurs to stay there and lead the charge of tech professionals and tech companies (the few that don't already have a presence there) to move there.
The entire story is about talent. If you can't attract and retain it, then you are done. Bill Gates, Tom Friedman, John Chambers, Andy Grove have all encouraged stapling a green card to international students. At around 50-100k per year, (assuming it is restricted to those with job offers), its a tiny drop in the ocean. But yet, Americans are so narrow minded that its incredible to see the foolishness unfold.
Re:Welfare bums now SS disability bums. (Score:5, Insightful)
so why the hell are you bitching and not reporting them and their "doctors" for fraud like a responsible citizen.
fuck dude, take some responsibility.
Re:Tax Exempt? (Score:1, Insightful)
Actually, you read his post completely wrong. He didn't criticize the education system so much as point out a fact about the useless layers that basically do nothing for us. Just look at your town and the education system and count the number of people who are not teachers, janitors, or technical support. Basically the people who do nothing but sit in an office, never speaking to students or getting up to actually do anything useful. Fire all those guys, and you've saved probably 70% of our education cost, or at least freed that money up to hire more teachers.
Re:Tax Exempt? (Score:1, Insightful)
Bullets and bombs are the best products to sell. Think about it - they're use once. Additionally, once you use them, you generally need more. And the other guy is going to want some too. It's a wonderful system.
Re:Tax Exempt? (Score:1, Insightful)
Military spending buys something much more precious than bullets and missiles - it buys security. With our huge stockpile of bullets and missiles, we run a much lower risk of invasion by some hostile country.
Of course, that benefit is eroded quite a bit when our politicians toss our military around like so many tennis balls to overthrow whatever dictator we had set up a decade ago...