"Hidden" PayPal Fees Inciting Community Unrest 309
Several sites are reporting on the addition of extra fees to PayPal that are just starting to become common knowledge. While PayPal has certainly had their fair share of controversy, the new "transaction fees" that promise to affect the entire customer base are already well on their way to becoming another. "For example, a personal account sending another personal account money for a one-time payment for, say, mowing your lawn was not previously charged any fees on either side, but is now charged the usual transaction fee (the sender gets to decide who pays). The only way to avoid this is by selecting 'gift' when making the transfer — something you can't do if you're following through on a purchase or invoice from someone. And, if you fall into this category (which many people do), it's likely that you had no idea about the changes until just now."
speaking of paypal..... (Score:5, Interesting)
... when is /. going to re-enable the direct credit card payment option for those who want to subscribe? I was a subscriber for the longest time until this option went away. Not everybody is willing to do business with Paypal or has the ability to do so.
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Yup. PayPal is a scam. Okay to use it until there is a problem.
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Actually PayPal and Ebay have been very crafty in avoiding the "Bank" or "Financial Institution" claim.
They are in constant battles with state and federal organizations trying to make sure that they are not deemed a bank as then they would have to play by the rules of the banks. Such as limiting theft, having to take insurance against false or fake transactions.
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In an unexpected outbreak of common sense, this is not the case in the UK (and I believe the EU as a whole), where PayPal have been successfully duck-typed and do now have to operate as a financial institution.
Re:speaking of paypal..... (Score:4, Insightful)
Fucked if you do, fucked if you don't.
The problem with Paypal is that, while they're not an FDIC-insured federally-legislated bank, they behave like one. If you're going to charge me service fees, currency exchange fees, transaction fees, balance fees, "you're a little too liberal for my inbred nationalist sensibilities" fees and "you're selling a big-ticket item so you must be rich" fees, well I expect there to be some very firm rules in place to ensure I get my mileage out of those fees. Dispute resolution ranks pretty high on that list, something Paypal does extremely poorly.
The reason Paypal is such a bastard ? Lack of competition. Paypal is a bigger brand than all other general-public e-payment gateways combined. Bigger than moneybookers, bigger than e-gold... They get away with it, because they're #1. Because the alternative is to get your own merchant account, and that costs way too much money, involves way too much paperwork, and like any bank service, it gives them way too much power over your business. You gotta do this, you gotta do that, can't sell this, can't ring the same amount twice in a row to a single card, if you sell X we increase your fees, if you sell Y we increase your fees AND your mandatory reserve amount, if you sell X + Y you need to fill out this form and put up with your condescending account manager for a half-hour on the phone.
Paypal is a hell of a lot simpler than a merchant account, so they get away with murder, in exchange for the privilege of not having to deal with a real bank.
Still Cheaper... (Score:5, Interesting)
...than using a credit card.
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Infinitely more expensive than doing a simple free bank to bank payment online. In the UK the fees are instantly transferred as well, if you wish, even between different banks.
Of course, anything less and we'd burn down the banks after their behaviour recently, and their other charges.
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In the UK the fees are instantly transferred as well, if you wish, even between different banks.
From my experience the only time transfers are instantaneous when using online banking is when both parties are with the same bank, between different banks there's a delay.
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Perhaps it is simple in the UK but bank transfers aren't a common (or cheap, for the costumer anyways) way of doing business in the US.
A good example of the payment culture clash was the open pandora.
Free Bank to Bank???? (Score:2)
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Can I write you a check for that bridge?
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Infinitely more expensive than doing a simple free bank to bank payment online.
Depends on where you live and where the recipiant lives. I looked into transferring money from my UK bank account to an ebay seller in germany that didn't take paypal (yes I know I should check before bidding and usually I do but when you are dealing with multiple auctions of the same product it's easy to get confused). It would have cost me more than the value of the transaction. Ended up sending cash through the post to settle
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Credit Card processing is a competitive business.
Our online credit card rates are $0.15 + 1.70% per transactions. That is much cheaper than paypal.
Re:Still Cheaper... (Score:4, Informative)
Wrong, unless I'm quite mistaken, as I've done a little research into this.
Those rates you quote are real, but you've conveniently omitted the monthly fees required, or the required monthly transaction volume. Not everyone is doing $100,000 worth of CC transactions per month to get those low rates. Personally, I have a small hobby business making only a few hundred dollars per year (hence the term "hobby"). Maybe I'll eventually get it to grow into something larger, but certainly nothing as large as $100k/month. For businesses like mine, Paypal is the only viable option, as CC processing is very, very expensive if you have little volume. Paypal is dirt cheap: no monthly fees, and just fees per transaction. The currecy-exchange rates are also cheap at 1% over the regular fees. For small sellers, there aren't any good alternatives, except maybe Google Checkout, which has identical rates.
Re:Still Cheaper... (Score:5, Informative)
Overall, I was out $100. I try to avoid both Paypal and E-Bay since this incident and only use them after exhausting all other options.
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Re:Still Cheaper... (Score:5, Informative)
Did you pay for the item using your credit card through Paypal or using your checking account? If you used your credit card you could have done a chargeback through the credit card company and bypassed Paypal's bullshit. Of course you'd lose your paypal account for doing this but that's a small price to pay to recover $100, IMHO anyway.
Re:Still Cheaper... (Score:5, Informative)
Did you pay for the item using your credit card through Paypal or using your checking account?
I did use a credit card. Unfortunately, I used the "Paypal"-branded credit card issued by GE Money Bank. They have in their fine print that any charge on the card through Paypal has to be resolved through paypal. They will just give you the run-around otherwise.
First thing I did after this was to tear up and cancel that card and then link my regular credit card to paypal which is a Citibank Card -- Citibank has always been *VERY* *GOOD* at dealing with any hint of fraud whether online or by phone / mail.
I'm out the $$$ but I've learned an important lesson which I can share with all of you. Don't use Paypal if you can't afford to be shafted -- and if you do use Paypal, whatever you do, don't get the Paypal Credit Card.
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I did use a credit card. Unfortunately, I used the "Paypal"-branded credit card issued by GE Money Bank. They have in their fine print that any charge on the card through Paypal has to be resolved through paypal. They will just give you the run-around otherwise.
That's pretty shitty but not at all surprising coming from Paypal. I would have gotten screwed out of $800 by them if I had waited an extra day to transfer the money out of Paypal and into my checking account. Now they just refuse to do business with me until I "reimburse" them. To hell with them :)
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There's your problem.
Re:Still Cheaper... (Score:5, Insightful)
So wait, you got screwed by PayPal, so at the first available opportunity, you gave them your credit card details so you could continue to use their service? This kind of thing is exactly why corporations continue to screw people over - they know they can keep doing it time and time again, and people will just keep coming back for more.
Re:Still Cheaper... (Score:5, Interesting)
So wait, you got screwed by PayPal, so at the first available opportunity, you gave them your credit card details so you could continue to use their service?
Unfortunately, Paypal has become a necessary evil if you want to use E-Bay. I try to avoid it if at all possible but many sellers (at least 30-40%) on E-Bay only take Paypal for electronic payments.
And yes, I'm trying to avoid E-Bay too but for hard-to-find or used items, you can't always find the stuff online or on Craigslist.
Sigh... basically, that's a problem of dealing with monopolies -- which is what Paypal and E-Bay are for all practical intents and purposes.
Re:Still Cheaper... (Score:4, Insightful)
I would like to use Google Checkout for eBay transactions, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
However, eBay specifically forbids it. I don't know why. Well, I do, but then I don't know why the FTC doesn't smack them down hard for such anti-competitive behavior.
Why can't people just DO WHAT'S RIGHT?
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>>>If you used your credit card you could have done a chargeback...of course you'd lose your paypal account for doing this
This is an oft-repeated myth. I've done several chargebacks on my ebay/paypal purchases, and my account is still alive and well. I think the key is that I followed Paypal's Dispute process, waited until they agreed to reimburse me, and then did a chargeback as a last resort (i.e. if paypal could not recover the money from the seller).
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I use it as a conduit for purchases through my bank account, costs me $0.00 in fees.
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I use it as a conduit for purchases through my bank account, costs me $0.00 in fees.
Until PayPay decides to clean out your bank account.
In which case it costs you every penny you had in it.
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Only the checking account which I transfer money to before I make purchases ;-)
Re:Still Cheaper... (Score:4, Insightful)
Unless your Paypal decides to overcharge and your bank charges your for overdraft fees....
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They actually do not have to adhere to Reg E not being a banking or financial institution.
I have worked on a few accounts where this has happened and unlike the comment above about ruining your credit the problem with it is then your bank puts you on a list that does not allow you to open a bank account with any other bank. Sort of a non-banked black list.
Basically your only recourse is to pay the bank fees and beg paypal. If they say no you have to go the states attorney route. Good luck with that.
Re:Still Cheaper... (Score:4, Informative)
I don't know about this. A foreclosure, for instance, will certainly "tank" your credit score, as would an auto repossession. An unpaid fee of $30? I really doubt it. I'm not a credit expert by any means, but I don't think anything that small does much to your credit score
Your wrong. With collection items it has less to do with the amount that's owed and more to do with the fact that there's a collection item on your report. I'm sure the amount owed factors into it to a degree but just having a collection item on your report will tank your credit score. Even a paid collection item will tank your score until it gets to be a few years old and/or falls off.
Plus, you can write to the credit bureaus every month requesting it be removed, and if the bank misses responding even once, it's gone.
You can do that but eventually the bureau will stop responding to your dispute requests and just send you form letters back saying the item was already investigated. The best way to do this is to file the dispute right around the middle of December. The holidays play havoc with work schedules at the banks and credit bureaus. I successfully disputed all but two negative items off my report by doing this.
Just make sure you dispute the item(s) based off a report that you either paid for or obtained because you were denied credit. Don't ever dispute something based off one of the free reports [annualcreditreport.com]. When Congress passed the law mandating that they give you one free report per year they included language that says they have 45 days to respond to disputes from those reports. If you get the report through another means they only have 30 days.
Re:Still Cheaper... (Score:4, Informative)
I use it as a conduit for purchases through my bank account, costs me $0.00 in fees.
And your chargeback rights/protection if you get shafted by a bad seller or stupid Paypal policy.
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With a credit card you know ahead of time in most cases whether or not it's been declined. The wors
Probably just the first step (Score:4, Insightful)
It'll be an outrage for a month, then the world will settle down. Then they'll start the membership fees.
I think I'm just going to close my Paypal now - I only ever used it because I didn't have a credit card, and I trust the guys over at Steam with my credit card number.
Re:Probably just the first step (Score:5, Interesting)
I think I'm just going to close my Paypal now
My account was closed for me when I sold an item to someone on eBay who later claimed that he never received the item. Paypal locked my account over this dispute and claimed that I needed to provide them with a tracking number to get the block removed. I did so and then the buyer changed his story from "I never received it" to "he sent me an empty box"
In spite of the fact that his story changed once confronted with the tracking number they still sided with the him and permanently blocked my account until I "repay" them for the money they reimbursed him. If I hadn't already transferred the funds into my checking account I would have lost them and the item I was selling.
As far as I'm concerned Paypal can burn in hell.
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Re:Probably just the first step (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Probably just the first step (Score:5, Insightful)
You're kidding, right? Paypal didn't send a mass e-mail to all its users saying "Dear Customers, We're jacking up our fees!". Instead, they sent out a mass mail that said "Dear Customers, We updated our Terms of Service. By doing nothing, you agree that you accept the changes."
Take a look at Paypal's legal page [paypal.com]. The Paypal "Terms of Service" are actually 14 different agreements, all written in legalese, all saying that they can be changed at any time for any reason by Paypal. All together, the agreements add up 4000 lines, give or take. Not every user is subject to every agreement (some are for specific services), but many are.
So can you really say with a straight face that you believe it is reasonable to expect Paypal users to reread 4000 lines of legalese every time Paypal announces that they've made some change to the agreement? It's not like they're providing diffs. They do not want their customers to understand these agreements or how they have changed because they are dishonest. That's the crux of the issue - Paypal is acting in bad faith to screw their own customers and hiding behind legalese when called out on it.
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A propos diffs: it's interesting to note that PayPal also blocked the Wayback Machine [archive.org] via robots.txt, so it's not possible to go back and do a diff on their TOS, to see how they evolved over time.
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How do you know they didn't tell the buyer to fuck off as well, and then try to just pocket the money?
Since I see just as many stories of them siding with bad sellers as I do bad buyers, I'd bet that they use any dispute as an excuse to just keep the cash.
Re:Probably just the first step (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Probably just the first step (Score:5, Informative)
Often times the Paypal "Dispute Process" can be really messed up.
I used to sell a lot of stuff on EBAY when I was unemployed for a period of time. I'd buy things in bulk and sell them off on EBAY. It wasn't making me rich and it was a lot of work but it was helping me get by a hard time....until they started making things difficult for me.
The worst problem was a $27 transaction. The buyer paid and a day later my account was locked. The reason? Apparently at some time the buyer was a victim of credit card fraud so they decided it was fraud again....and because I was receiving the money I MUST be involved. Both of our accounts would be locked pending a paypal investigation.
I had about 60 packages I had to ship out very shortly and the money to do that was...in my Paypal account. Being poor and unemployed, I didn't have nearly enough money to cover it outside of that account. I talked to the guy with the $27 transaction on the phone and we decided to just call Paypal and get them to cancel it. No way. We were both under suspicion of criminal activity. In the meantime, I had another 70-80 auctions end but the Buyers could not send me money because of my frozen account. Obviously "Paypal froze my account" didn't inspire confidence so few of those people worked with me and I got stuck with EBAY seller fees.
I tried to explain the situation to the other people I owed goods. Some asked if I could just refund their money. I agreed to that but...guess what? I couldn't! As time wore on, they started getting mad and filing more complaints. By the time the original was cleared up 23 days later I had another 30 or so complaints where.....I couldn't refund the money. Ebay Fees hit (That money could come out) which left me with not enough money for all the refunds anyway. Of course, they started hammering my bank account after that. Luckily I got a job shortly after and was able to make sure everyone got their merchandise or money....but Paypal just destroyed me, my once spectacular Ebay reputation, and my bank account. It was absolutely ridiculous.
Re:Probably just the first step (Score:4, Interesting)
This seems to be a common complaint, but it's hardly specific to PayPal. Merchants accepting credit cards get stuck with charge-backs all the time, and from what I can tell (from second-hand reports, anyway) the credit-card dispute resolution process isn't much better for sellers than PayPal's.
The simple fact is that PayPal has no way of knowing which side is in the right. Maybe you did send an empty box, and the apparent change in story was just a misunderstanding. After all, the buyer did consistently claim not to have received the item; perhaps they simply didn't consider an empty box worth mentioning until you brought up the tracking number. The only way to avoid this sort of issue is to have a mutually-trusted third-party mediate the transaction rather than dealing directly with the buyer/seller. Unfortunately, that's only a practical solution for relatively expensive items. For everything else, well--sellers are fewer in number, deal in higher volumes, and are generally regarded as being more capable of absorbing the cost of proving their side of the dispute, or otherwise taking the occasional loss. This isn't a great solution, but it's the best available at present.
Re:Probably just the first step (Score:4, Insightful)
I partly agree with what you're saying, but a big problem here is that eBay has effectively shut out all other forms of payments to further their Paypal monopoly. To quote from them [ebay.com]: "Checks, money orders, and bank wire transfers arenâ(TM)t allowed for most eBay purchases. "
If eBay still allowed USPS money orders as payment, in addition to avoiding the 2-3% Paypal fees, unscrupulous buyers would have a strong disincentive to lie about not receiving their items; the USPS can and does investigate cases of mail fraud, and mail fraud is a felony. Paypal, on the other hand, could give a rat's ass whether the buyer is lying about not receiving the item...
Mail fraud (Score:3, Interesting)
it's still mail fraud even if you don't use a money order.
You're correct, assuming you ship USPS -- hadn't thought of that. And the USPS does provide a mail fraud complaint form [uspis.gov] online which includes both "Failure to Pay" and "Failure to Provide". Has anyone actually successfully had the USPS investigate cases of eBay fraud (e.g. buyer falsely claiming non-receipt) for non-gigantic dollar amounts, though? I googled for a bit and found people who contacted the USPS about eBay fraud, but no indications of whether USPS actually followed up.
Re:Probably just the first step (Score:4, Interesting)
I quit doing business with PayPal, and thus eBay, after they wanted direct access to my checking account to do any further business.
What they really need to do is create an escrow service where I send PayPal my $, the seller sends them the goods. Goods are verified by paypal as best as possible with perhaps pictures sent to me. As the buyer, if I'm okay with that verification then they release both the goods and the funds.
A decent fee should be associated with it, even if rejected by buyer. Perhaps arbitration fees for deciding who is at fault for rejection.
This would not be something everyone would use, but when you are dealing with very expensive merchandise that is small such as computer devices it would be nice. A high MP photo of that Cisco management blade that costs over $10,000 would have revealed it was a clone built in China and not authentic.
My thoughts.
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I did so and then the buyer changed his story from "I never received it" to "he sent me an empty box"
Damn, maybe I should have tried that. I bought an item on Ebay, which was shipped by DHL. DHL claimed it was delivered, but it was not; I was at home the day they claimed it to be delivered, and looking out my window at the front door for the delivery truck. No truck, no package. I tried to file claims, but DHL wouldn't allow me to since I wasn't the shipper, and the shipper supposedly filed a claim but
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I call BS.
The tracking number when pulled up on UPS's website shows the UPS recorded weight of the box.
Paypal will look that info up on a transaction. If you send a empty box, they will see that it was empty when you pull up the info.
I had this happen, I pointed out the tracking number, AND the UPS recorded weight and asked how the hell did I send a 22 pound empty box?
I won that dispute.
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I think I'm just going to close my Paypal now
You can't. Trust me. I 'closed' my paypal account nearly a decade ago (and twice more since) yet it still spews emails now and again over service updates and other folderol.
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yet it still spews emails now and again over service updates and other folderol.
Sure those aren't phishing attempts? Over 90% of the e-mail that I receive "from" Paypal usually is.....
I quit using paypal a long time ago (Score:5, Informative)
Ever since they began taking a percentage of my transactions, I stopped using Paypal whatsoever for the freelance work I do.
Paypal was nice when it began, but the more time passes the more annoyinng it becomes.
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Ever since they began taking a percentage of my transactions, I stopped using Paypal whatsoever for the freelance work I do.
Paypal was nice when it began, but the more time passes the more annoyinng it becomes.
What do you do now?
I also do freelance work and I'm looking for a cheaper way of receiving payment.
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Re:I quit using paypal a long time ago (Score:5, Insightful)
If you want to accept credit cards, paypal is by far the easiest way to do so since you don't need to qualify for a merchant account and get set up with a card processor.
The anger here is split between the fact that they added the fees without really alerting anyone and the fact that until now their business model had always been to give people free access for personal and near-personal (small scale ebay selling etc.) and then charge fees to the business users who receive payments. People would get comfortable with using the service as a buyer (no fees) and then as a small scale seller (fees only on CC based transactions) before becoming a true revenue stream for paypal when they move a business onto paypals system. Paypal has a lot of annoying stuff going on and maybe some fees are too high (although the real fee problem lies in their parent company getting double fees since you basically have to use paypal with ebay), but I am not sure that charging a small amount for business transactions that cost them money on a site that is otherwise cost and ad free is that big of a problem.
Business Sense? (Score:3, Insightful)
As much as I hate to think so, this might just be "good business". The company can and should push the limits of their service while still maintaining their customer base. IF one way to do that is to incrementally increase fees until they see a detrimental business impact, then why shouldn't they try it? If they overdo it, then competition will step in and offer cheaper alternatives. And if PayPal is truly being anti-competitive then there are ways to legally resolve that as well.
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Mod parent up (Score:5, Informative)
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This is the cost of doing business with eBay, and is a major reason why eBay is on the decline. The future of online auctioning and payment is decentralized and dynamic. eBay is trying to stay afloat in a medium that is losing specific gravity -- it's GOING to sink eventually.
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eBay is on decline? Has netcraft confirmed it? If you are selling something you basically have two venues to do so -- eBay or Amazon. That's where people go first and that's what google returns. Where do you buy things -- craigslist?? I don't like eBay, but it is both cheaper to buy there and there is plenty of stuff simply unavailable outside of eBay. And once you are stuck with eBay you are stuck with payp
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Sorry, but the idea that Craigslist is a replacement for Ebay is lunacy.
CL certainly is a useful website, and is useful in many, many ways that Epay is not: it has community forums, jobs postings, you can look for a landscaper or a housekeeper there, you can look for friends/romance/"casual encounters", etc.
CL is basically meant to be a big, free (for most things) "community" website. One feature of that is the for-sale listings, which basically replace the old-style Classified Ads sections in newspapers.
Re:Mod parent up (Score:5, Interesting)
Only if you explicitly say "Google Checkout", I put in my auctions That I DO NOT accept paypal but have 'my own' credit card processor. Of course all I do is send them a Google Checkout invoice via e-mail and they pay it.
I'm sure if I started selling to someone that worked for paypal/ebay I might get caught but 99.9% of people out there don't give a damn.
Buyer protection (Score:5, Informative)
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$514 fee to collect $514 reversal (Score:5, Informative)
I'm just fucking thrilled with PayPal right now, can't you tell?
Re:$514 fee to collect $514 reversal (Score:5, Interesting)
The ONLY way I pay though PayPal is via my American Express card.
One time I had a problem and PayPal was zero help. So I directed my
complaint through Amex. Good old American Express came down like a ton
of bricks on PayPal and REVERSED the transfer, which got PayPals attention quick!
All of a sudden, PayPal was in my court and got the seller to fix things.
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AMX is known for being good about that. ;)
I've done the same with my bank. Called em up, said, "yup, those guys at paypal, they robbed me". It took about 10 minutes total. They took the money back and gave PayPal the finger. Problem solved.
PayPal is the disgusting shithole of online payment processing companies... really always has been.
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Paypal sucks.
Re:$514 fee to collect $514 reversal (Score:5, Informative)
You went about it all wrong.
I tried to get a seller to pay for return shipping when he sent
the wrong item (his description was wrong). When the seller wouldn't
see things my way and PayPal wouldn't help, I just told Amex I had
a complaint and wanted the charges dropped from my account. Amex did
their OWN investigation and reversed the charges on PayPal. Finally the
seller issued me a refund AND paid the cost for return of the item, at which
point I shipped it back to him. I then told Amex that the problem was fixed and
they and PayPal finalized things.
NEVER use a bank account to fund a charge with PayPal. You give up too much
clout.
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If you pay via PayPal, always always always use a credit card when you do it. If you get screwed by a seller and PayPal doesn't make it right, call your credit card company, and most often they will reverse the charge.
If you used PayPal with the "instant transfer from your bank account" or whatever, then, well, too bad. Chalk it up as a learning experience and use your credit card next time.
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I respectfully disagree.
I work in the touristic industry in Mexico, and every so often I have to deal with jerks that come here, pay for services with their credit cards, and once back in the US, they call their credit cards claiming that "evil thieves in Mexico made unauthorized charges to my card! WAAAAAMBULANCE!!!"
I can (usually) save the day for my company sending the card issuer with copies of all the invoices and contracts, signed by the jerk, along with copy of the id, but sometimes American banks ju
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VISA and MC do NOT do chargebacks. Your finance company does.
On a side note, why does nobody know who is giving them credit? Everyone here seems to think it's Visa's/MC's fault. Visa doesn't do that. They issue the card system that banks and other financial divisions use to process credit, they don't actually issue the credit. Did anyone ever apply to Visa for a card? NO. Everyone in the history of Visa and Mastercard (AmEx is mostly a charge card company, and Discover uses its own bank for most of their c
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So isn't that mail fraud?
Sure is, but since it's over international boundaries, can't get it prosecuted unless Mr. SHAHUL HAMEED ABDUL LATHIEF decides to come to the US to face prosecution...
Oh yeah... (Score:4, Interesting)
I had this problem a few weeks ago.
If I remember correctly, you have to switch to the personal tab and make sure the source is a paypal balance or a bank account
They even tell you what costs what when you send the money and click "When fees apply" link.
Here's the excerpt from Paypal:
I used my bank account to pay a friend, so it was free. Though, if it were anything more serious, I would be leery since I can't do charge back or other convenient stuff.
The writer does NOT mention that in the article what source the money came from.
Perhaps another person could say why the bank account/paypal is free and the other stuff costs money.
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Perhaps another person could say why the bank account/paypal is free and the other stuff costs money.
Probably because there are no fees for a bank transfer - its very much like writing a check - and all the other options are basically credit cards which do have transaction fees.
Re:Oh yeah... (Score:4, Informative)
Perhaps another person could say why the bank account/paypal is free and the other stuff costs money.
Because it costs Paypal money to run your credit card. They have to pay processing/transaction fees for credit cards just like any other merchant. However, they are still making money. I guarantee that with their usage, they can negotiate CC transaction fees in the 5-15 cent range with a percentage take of 1.5-7%.
Bank and paypal accounts are 'free' because of the practices surrounding those types of transactions.
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The trick is to have people move $ into their paypal account, before sending it to you, and not use a credit/debit card to send $ to your paypal account.
If you send paypal to paypal you're still free. I have a bank account tied to my paypal, and move money to and from Paypal via that account. I have that account tied to another account, so I can move money to and from it as needed. At any given time, there is nothing in that bank account tied to Paypal.
Yeah, it takes a little more effort, but I have some pi
Screw em (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
eBay's Craigslist is actually Kijiji [kijiji.com]. Thankfully, they haven't fucked with it too much since acquiring it... yet.
Never mind that, it's the 100% fee that gets me. (Score:5, Interesting)
I sold an expensive (~$1800) camera package for a friend on eBay. Got an instant PayPal payment, with a confirmed shipping address, but no other communication from the buyer.
Shipped the package to the Texas address via UPS Ground. Followed the tracking info as it hit various points, and eventually made it to the destination...
...where it bounced, launching an exception that the "recipient had moved", and that it was being "redirected to the new address". An address which happened to be within 50 miles of my own address. The "buyer" continued to ignore emails.
Called up PayPal, explained that I'd shipped the package to a confirmed address. They said, "Yes, you should be covered under Seller Protection." I then explained that it had been bounced to an unconfirmed address, without any action or agreement on my part. "Oh," they said. "If you can't provide proof that the package has been delivered to a confirmed address, you aren't protected."
"So," I ask, "you mean that I can send a package using your approved shipper, with your approved tracking, to an address that you've confirmed -- and if the "recipient" redirects the shipment somewhere else, they can then claim that they never received the package, and I'll lose my payment with no recourse?"
"Well, I'm afraid so."
"So I guess I'd better recall the shipment and eat the shipping fee." "Yes, if I were you, that's what I'd do."
And that's why my eBay/PayPal annual sales volume has gone from five figures to one figure (0).
Re:Never mind that, it's the 100% fee that gets me (Score:4, Insightful)
One PayPal and eBay got together, eBay was already on the way out the door. Everyone had already found out that there just MIGHT be someone out there willing to pay $50 for a $10 pair of speakers, and that it MIGHT be pretty trivial to scam people out of money for a living. 80% or more of eBay is totally worthless to most people due to this.
So now what you have now is a company that makes its money from transactions, and settling a dispute wastes more time than its worth. For every scammed item or payment, there's one side that's unhappy, and one side that's happy. For a net gain of 0%. One person stops using it, the other person continues using it. All they have to do is maintain a decent user base and they'll be around for a while.
Of course, like most companies, they aren't looking to the future at all. They aren't trying to change things to sustain their business.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course, like most companies, they aren't looking to the future at all. They aren't trying to change things to sustain their business.
This is what makes me laugh when you hear about eBay's CEO thinking of a run for CA governor and the blurbs introducing the candidate as CEO fortune whatever company eBay... Of course, that prolly guarantees she'll be our next governor.
Um, that would be "via UPS Ground". (Score:4, Insightful)
And, yeah, I was more than a bit surprised at the way it panned out. I also didn't know that you could recall a shipment; it was certainly lucky for us that you could.
I honestly don't know what would've happened if we hadn't done the recall. Maybe it was a legitimate buyer, and everything would have been fine. But here's one more "interesting" observation:
I searched to see who else this buyer had dealt with recently, and found one seller. I emailed that seller (through eBay, very official and everything) asking if he'd had any trouble. He said "Yeah, they tried to reverse the charge and claim that they hadn't received the merchandise, but I sent PayPal the tracking info showing that it had been delivered, and PayPal restored the money to my account."
Now, on the old eBay, each of us would have negged the buyer, and anyone else getting a bid from her would have seen the recent negative feedback. But, of course, if sellers can leave negative feedback, they can blackmail buyers, or some damn thing. So not only can we not leave negative feedback, warning other potential sellers about this scammer -- we can't even leave NEUTRAL feedback. We're offered the choice of leaving positive feedback, or none at all.
When eBay supported an open feedback process, it was a great place to buy AND sell. Now, it's pretty much a place for big sellers to move loads of crap, and that's it. There's no way in hell I'd think of using it to sell a popular, high-value item as an individual seller. They've systematically taken away what little buyer protection there used to be, and they've castrated the seller's feedback mechanism -- there's no way to identify problem buyers, and no protection against negative feedback from them.
If the only feedback you can leave is "good job", what's the damn point?
Nothing "Hidden" Here (Score:2, Informative)
I use a webservice that mointers the TOSs of companies whos' services I use to be alerted to changes.
You can easily use TOSBack.org to do this for many companies.
I don't think I got that email (Score:5, Funny)
I found my notice from PayPal on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying
"Beware of the Leopard."
they must charge (Score:2)
Financial transactions always have cost, because there's always a chance of something going wrong and some expensive legal procedure following. Also, they must obviously pay for their operations. I don't understand how someone could expect a financial transaction service to be free.
Re:they must charge (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, they must obviously pay for their operations. I don't understand how someone could expect a financial transaction service to be free.
It shouldn't be free as much as it should be cheaper.
There is no point to micro-transactions anymore with Pay-Pal because of the fees and people are too afraid of their revocations without recourse to sell expensive items through them.
Sadly there is no alternative for ebay these days so people have stopped using it.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
How about because PayPal said they would be free?
When PayPal first started there were no fees of any kind and they had a page on their site called "How PayPal works" (it's long gone). The idea was to charge your credit card and then hold the money for a couple of days before passing it along to the merchant, making money on the "float". It was a good idea that worked for a while.
Unfortunately, PayPal fell victim
Simple... (Score:2)
Close all paypal accounts, and use mostly kijiji for my ads, and use ebay less then likely unless item is really something i need...then I use credit card on paypal..
unlicensed (Score:5, Insightful)
Paypal is operating as an unlicensed bank. I am amazed that the Feds have not already come down on them. And don't get me started on Ebay...
Re:unlicensed (Score:4, Informative)
Paypal blames eBay, eBay blames Paypal. (Score:5, Interesting)
I made an eBay sale recently. The charges, when I placed the auction, amounted to 50p, but by the time Paypal took them from my bank account they had quadrupled to £2. On an item that only sold for £15 this amounts to a 10% surcharge. But who is getting the extra £1.50?
eBay say that the discrepancy is down to Paypal, Paypal say they're just passing on eBay's charges. Yet, as far as I can gather, they are the same company?!?
I get the feeling they are "bouncing" small amounts like this back and forth between the two divisions in the hope that nobody will notice, or at least that we can't be bothered chasing it up.
I wish more sites accepted Google Checkout.
PayPal needs to be regulated like a bank (Score:5, Insightful)
PayPal works with money like a bank or credit card, but they are treated like an internet Western Union on steroids, and yet most of the public is trusting them like a bank, which is a mistake.
PayPal needs controls like bank. The majority of their transactions may be okay, but that's like 95 to 99%... of billions. That's way too many bad transactions. They need to be made more secure, particularly for consumers.
I avoid PayPal like the plague because I don't want to become a statistic.
Cutting Their Own Throat - I Say Let 'Em (Score:4, Interesting)
My high 5-figure online business recently ditched PayPal because despite the various fees and commissions a bricks and mortar bank merchant facility was marginally cheaper and, here's the big one, they never reject a valid credit card. They also don't require nineteen types of personal information to process a simple, small payment. In the name of security PayPal occasionally would reject perfectly valid cards from customers with a good trading history (in one case several of the customer's cards were rejected). PayPal would not talk to the merchant about the customer's card, and the customer's time is better spent buying elsewhere rather than fighting to pay through the PayPal "Customer Service*" call centre in downtown Calcutta (that's what it sounds like).
* Just who is PayPal's customer anyway? Is it the merchant or the buyer, or is it whoever gives PP the easiest option/biggest profit?
Re: (Score:2)
Because Slashdot is digg?
P.S. Just because something happened yesterday doesn't mean it's not news, yeesh the internet generation wants to know everything the second it happens.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)