SSN Overlap With Micronesia Causes Trouble For Woman 494
stevel writes "Holly Ramer, who lives in Concord, NH, has never been to the Federated States of Micronesia, but debt collectors dun her mercilessly for unpaid loans taken out by a small business owner in that Pacific island nation. Why? Micronesia and other countries in the region have their own Social Security Administrations which gave out numbers to residents applying for US disaster relief loans. The catch is that the Micronesian SSNs have fewer digits than the nine-digit US version, and when credit bureaus entered these into their database, they padded them out with zeros on the front. These numbers then matched innocent US citizens with SSNs beginning with zeroes, as many in northern New England do. The credit bureaus say to call the Social Security Administration, the SSA says call the credit bureaus, the FTC says they can't help, and nobody is taking responsibility for the confusion."
Why do "credit report agencies" have immunity? (Score:5, Interesting)
The credit reporting agencies are redistributing negative information they _know_ is untrue. Why isn't this defamation or liable/slander (whichever is the written one)?
It seems like the credit agencies have managed to get some sort of immunity to "it costs money to lie" principle.
Where does this protection come from?
I agree that it has nothing to do with the social security system, since the extra-national numbers don't actually match (it's the credit reporting system that is forcing the reporting entity to "pad" the number with leading zeros) and are completely out of their control.
Like most of our problems in the U.S.A. there is a lack of accountability and personal and/or corporate responsibility at its core.
Eventually someone is going to revolt against someone somewhere.
Re:what i would say (Score:4, Interesting)
I wonder if one could report them for extortion. Especially if they keep it up after you have provided reasonable evidence that you don't owe them money.
Debt Collectors are Morons (Score:5, Interesting)
I got a new wireless phone a year ago. It came with daily calls from collection agencies for people I've never heard of. Some were annoying automated calls. When called by live people, I told them they had the wrong number and to please update their database. Of course they didn't. Finally took a letter to the agencies legal departments to get them to stop.
I was staying at a (rental) cabin in the woods this past weekend and got a call from a collection agency on the cabin's landline. And no, they were calling for a random person, not they owner of the cabin (or me).
As near as I can tell, collection agencies use the following strategy when seeking debtors: call every number in the country till they find the person they're looking for.
Re:what i would say (Score:4, Interesting)
from personal experience, i can tell you that this does not work. the C&D order will simply be returned to sender because the collection agencies know not to sign for certified mail.
Let them refuse the C&D letter. I'll include that fact in my lawsuit. Judges don't look favorably upon those that attempt to duck legal papers/service. They are just putting another nail in their coffin if they do this.
Simple solution for SSN (Score:3, Interesting)
The SSA simply needs to announce that from next January, all new SSNs issued will be 22+ digits long and will be identical for the first or last 9 digits. They wouldn't have to do it, but it would force lots of places to plan for a future change. They could also start putting in a checksum on some new cards or throwing in letters. Remember the common mod 10 checksum used for things like credit cards was designed to work with EBCDIC letters.
Re:what i would say (Score:5, Interesting)
If you don't admit to being the debtor they're calling about, they will not give you the opportunity to sue them.
That's why I don't confirm or deny that I'm the debtor. It should go like this:
"Hello, may I speak to Joe Deadbeat?"
"Who is this?"
"May I speak to Joe Deadbeat?"
"Who is this?"
Do this long enough and eventually you'll get some moron that assumes you are the debtor. They will then start trying to collect from you. At this point it isn't real hard to get an address out of them.
For extra points record the phone call (if legal to do so in your state) and hope they are stupid enough to disclose some detail about Joe Deadbeats account. Then track down Joe Deadbeat yourself and offer him the tape so he can sue them for this disclosure. Assuming that you never claimed to be Joe Deadbeat you've broken no laws by letting them hang themselves.
I actually did this once after a collection agency refused to take the hint that my recently assigned phone number didn't belong to the man they were looking for. I started recording their calls and eventually some jackass told me the amount that was owed on the account. I located Joe Deadbeat myself and gave him the recording. He sued them and won a sizable settlement and an agreement that they'd write off the debt.
Re:Debt Collectors are Morons (Score:4, Interesting)
I was promptly accused of covering for him, and was threatened with ridiculous legal action. That's when I made it clear that I knew exactly what my rights were and that if I received another call again I would refer the matter to my attorney (I didn't actually have one, but sometimes mentioning it is enough). I never got another call again.
Pretty much (Score:5, Interesting)
They just use shotgun tactics to try and get a response, calling every number that they can find ever associated with a person. They aren't real good about taking hints either. At work (state university) we periodically get calls for someone that used to work there a LONG time ago. Now never mind they aren't supposed to be calling work, but he's not there. None the less they try to get information on him. Usually they'll go away when I say "I'm sorry, we can't give out any information." However there was one who was pretty stupid about it. More or less went like this:
Me: "He doesn't work here any more, hasn't for a long time, since before I was here."
They: "Well where is he now?"
Me: "I don't know, and even if I did I can't give you employee information, only HR can do that."
They: "Will they tell us where he is?"
Me: "Nope, they'll tell you his dates of employment."
They: "We need to know how to get a hold of him now, where we can reach him."
Me: "Well sorry, we can't help you."
They: "You have to tell us where he is, or get us someone who can."
Me: "I have to? Ok hang on a moment I'll need to conference in the general counsel, they'll need to be involved if you are making a legal claim."
At that point they immediately hung up. Guess they didn't want to talk to the lawyers. What amazed me was the tone and attitude of they had of "You have to help us do our job or else." Else what asshole?
Re:what i would say (Score:3, Interesting)
Then you keep them on the line as long as possible, tell them "please hold", set them on hold, and forget about them for a few hours, so they will waste as many international calling minutes as possible.
Oh, yes, and add their phone number to your call blocking list, so they can't call you anymore.
Or just say "I'm not paying" and hang up abruptly, as soon as they call you.
If they call back, "Calls from your organization are harassment, don't call me again" [CLICK]
It's annoying, but they should stop eventually.
Re:what i would say (Score:5, Interesting)
>>>This is a civilized country with civilized rules
Really?
Then how come on of my local citizens, who spied a thief trying to steal his car, and hit said thief over the head with a bat to stop him, was arrested by the policy *on his own property*? Why is the thief now suing the homeowner for medical damages?
This is not a civilized society when thieves are protected while homeowners trying to protect their homes/cars/yards are jailed and later sued. A civilized society doesn't take the view that homeowners should just quietly hide, while the thief drives-off with the car or other personal possessions. That's an anarchist society.
Re:what i would say (Score:2, Interesting)
Then how come on of my local citizens, who spied a thief trying to steal his car, and hit said thief over the head with a bat to stop him, was arrested by the policy *on his own property*? Why is the thief now suing the homeowner for medical damages?
Because he hit the thief over the head with a bat to stop him from stealing a car. That is an anarchist society.
Protecting property is hardly justification for risking someone's life, thief or no thief. Civilized people know that, which is why our civilized rules say he should be arrested.
Do SSN's wrap around? (Score:4, Interesting)
I just realized that there is not much of a space for unique SSN's. 9 digits gives a maximum of 1 billion numbers. However, not every number is actually used. I assume that there must at least be a control number to check if SSN can be valid, similar to how credit cards / ISBN work. There could also be regional prefixes, similar to IP addresses (e.g. 111 = New York, 999 = California or something like that). etc. This would significantly reduce the number space.
Even if that's not the case, the population of US is ~ 300 million. There must have been more than 1 billion people who have lived/still living since the SSNs were first introduced.
My question is, how did US not run out of unique numbers? Do SSNs get reused?
Better yet... Dominoes! (Score:5, Interesting)
When I was younger, I developed the habit of answering the phone, "Mort's morgue - you stab 'em, we slab 'em!" and other sophomoric phrases. After a while, I made a conscious effort to come up with new and interesting tag lines when answering the phone.
My friends and family expected wierd responses when they called. Debt collectors didn't. Sometimes they'd just hang up. Other times they'd apologize for the wrong number. But then some got downright nasty.
Having a relative run into debt problems, there was a period of time of about 6 months when I would receive calls from debt collectors on a regular basis. They always pretended to be someone else - usually someone with authority. In some cases, they impersonated the police, which was illegal.
But it just so happens that one time, I answered, "Dominoes Pizza..." And instead of a familiar family member's voice, it's the debt collector, impersonating a Chicago police officer. So I played along, taking his order (I had worked at pizza places before).
Now, this was after the invention of caller ID. And reverse-lookups on the Internet. And I happened to know that pizza stores routinely re-route orders to another store if the address doesn't fall within their delivery area. I'll leave as an exercise for the reader just what happened next.
Needless to say, they stopped calling.
I can't help but think that at least once, the sweatshop employees at a debt collection agency got a much needed pizza party, courtesy the employee who had the balls to impersonate a Chicago cop.
Re:what i would say (Score:4, Interesting)
"This phone call is being recorded for legal liability purposes."
Re:what i would say (Score:4, Interesting)
Protecting property shouldn't be necessary at all. Once someone is trying to steal my belongings, they have waived any rights to safety they might have had. To give the criminal rights while they are committing a crime is to remove all rights from the victim. That is not just.
But I have known for many years that there is no justice in the United States.
Re:what i would say (Score:3, Interesting)
You only have to do that if you live in a so-called "two party" state, wherein all parties to the call need to consent to the recording. Most states are "one party" states, where only one party (i.e: you) needs to consent.
Typical for a collection agency I guess (Score:2, Interesting)
Wow that sucks. I wish the SSA here in the US would make a notice, something along the lines of "Numbers A through Z are affected." Just so we know if we are at risk for being harassed.
Debt collectors don't even care who they get the money from, as long as they get it. For example, when I was a kid my siblings and I had health insurance from my mother's job. She used to just bring my card to the doctor's office because, as far as she was concerned, our claims were all the same (different than hers).
When I turned 20 a collection agency called my house trying to tell me that I owed $500 to the Where I Live Medical Group. I asked her for details about the charges, and they all turned out to be hospital visits made in my name. They were all about 5 years old. I tried to explain to her that there must be a mistake, but what she said next was a real kicker: "Mr Lastname, aren't you going to take responsibility for your daughters medical bills?" I freaked out (I have no kids) and asked her what she was talking about. She said the name that was filed under patient care was "Mysister Lastname". She thought that my sister was my daughter, just because we had the same last name. She didn't even look at the DOB.
So my mom took my sister to the hospital five years ago with my insurance card, and didn't pay the bill. Then the hospital hunted me down and tried to tell me that my sister was my daughter and I was legally obligated to pay the bill. I asked her to look at the DOB for the patient and myself, and all of a sudden her demeanor changed (she must have realized she screwed up). The worst bit was that she started demanding to know how to get in contact with my parents, she was very aggressive. I called her a cunt and told her to fuck off. Most women who want money from me respond to that.
I just ignored the letters and phone calls until they went away, but the whole thing is fucked up if you think about it. I mean, shouldn't someone have noticed that the names on the forms don't match the name on the card, let alone the blood type and sex type? Birth date too now that I think about it.
Re:what i would say (Score:2, Interesting)
Many states are "open carry" states. Many more, while being more restrictive about public open carry have laws which make it legal for one to open carry on his own property. Exercise that right, while you're around your house at the very least, and problems go away. Personally, I usually strap one of my SBR AR-15s to my chest when I answer the door--unless I'm expecting someone, that is.
I've found no better deterrent for salesmen or those darn Jehovah's Witnesses, and lo and behold, I could never be lawfully accused of brandishing. If one of those crummy bill collectors showed up for any reason, I might just flick off the safety.
YAAAY USA. (Score:1, Interesting)
I want to be an american even LESS after this.
Re:Social Security #s are for Social Security ONLY (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, but they can get a judgement against you in another state - say, New Jersey - and use that to garnish your wages in Texas. I know of at least one case in which a default judgement in a California court was used to garnish wages in Illinois. The person in question had to fly to California to dispute the judgement and reopen the case.
I don't know how it all played out, but he was out a few thousand dollars in expenses before his name was cleared.
Re:what i would say (Score:3, Interesting)
Especially if they keep it up after you have provided reasonable evidence that you don't owe them money.
Here's the problem - it's very hard to provide reasonable evidence here. Think about: every day, all day, these guys hear variations on excused, but one that they hear predominantly is "What? No, you've got the wrong person. I don't owe you money."
It's very hard to prove that you don't owe money - especially when they have documetnation that confirms you are the right person. Even though the documentation is flawed, how can you reasonably convince them of that -- keeping in mind that they hear "It wasn't me" all the time.
Re:what i would say (Score:5, Interesting)
I know how this happens. There is a company that sells information to track people down. This company lists my wife and I as possible relatives of this couple. What is really funny about this company is that even though I am part of a large family, the only people they list as my possible relatives is this guy and my father. My father has been dead for 10 years. They don't even list my wife as one of my relatives, although they list her as related to this guy.
Re:DO NOT CALL List ? (Score:3, Interesting)
Uh no, actually. The Do Not Call List has loopholes that allow debt collectors to make phone calls. Also charities and survey companies are exceptions to call as well.
I have a number that used to belong to someone else, I keep getting calls for that person. I keep telling people that person does not live here, and then they ask if they could talk to me (as if I was the person pretending to be someone else or something) and I told them no, that person does not live here, please stop calling.
Thing is he signed up for business with many companies and they still think he has the same number. They claim they have a right to call because they are debt collectors. I cannot get an address out of these companies, they want a bank account or credit card to pay off the debts.
I also found out that some companies are both debt collectors and telemarketers, so when they call to collect a debt, and find out they got the wrong number, they use the loophole to try to sell me something, even won't take no for an answer and I end up hanging up on them after telling them not to call back here.
Re:what i would say (Score:3, Interesting)
Hello, this is the same legal system that has given us multi-million dollar verdicts for thieves who were injured in the commission of their crime. Juries are insane. There's no other reason for some of the civil verdicts that have come back - prisoners awarded damages for being denied ice cream with a frequency they want, silo owners having to pay multi million dollar suits because people cut through their fences, break locks, climb silos, break more locks, then fall.
Ironic - the real debtors have no fear of default (Score:4, Interesting)
This is somewhat off-topic, but I found the details of the article very interesting. Of 299 US government loans to Micronesians, over 200 were not paid up!! That makes subprime loans look like gold. Basically, the Micronesians are treating these as gifts, not loans. And why not - it's obvious the lender (that would be you, the American taxpayer) doesn't have any real recourse to collect. It's not like the Micronesians have anything to fear from US credit bureaus, who can't even track them adequately.
In other words, the US government tries to pretend these are loans by putting SSNs on the accounts, which ends up screwing over some hapless US citizen, when they should just treat them as gifts, because in reality it looks like they are.
Re:The real problem (Score:4, Interesting)
Lots of things.
Unless you've got a lot of money, you need various forms of credit in case of an emergency. What if you suddenly need to pay a $50,000 medical bill because you suffered an injury the insurance won't cover? Or a legal bill? For even the upper middle class with a few hundred K in assets, it's not convenient to come up with that kind of money on the spot. You usually have to sell some stocks or other securities, or get a second mortgage, etc. A few high limit credit cards in your wallet can make the problem a lot more managable.
Insurance of all types looks at credit ratings. Cell phone companies.
A key one is EMPLOYERS. Yep, your credit score can determine whether they even offer you a job. Unfair, but some do it.
Banks also care.
Bottom line : your credit score matters a ton, and you should do what you can to protect and optimize it. The formula is complex, but you should have exactly 4 high limit credit cards with very little utilization. You should keep those 4 cards for as long as possible, never canceling them. Maybe have them set to be paid in full automatically at the end of each month, and occasionally purchase something using the cards. You should get a form of long term consumer debt (like a mortgage) and pay that as well. Usually, even if you can afford to buy a house cash, a mortgage can give you tax benefits that are worth it, and you can secure the mortgage with some securities to lower the interest rate.
Re:Idiot programmers (Score:3, Interesting)
All this, caused by someone too lazy to add a "if (country == USA)" statement.
All this thread and your comment about country==USA reminds me a problem my wife and I are facing now with SEVIS, DMV, and Immigration Services. When we tried to get our Driver License, we had problem because our prove of legal residence didn't match with the records of Immigration Services. Specifically, we appear as Ivory Cost citizens but we are Chileans. Trying to find out what the problem is, I discovered that my DS-2019 in the country code field has CI, the Ivory Coast code. But that was not the problem!!! SEVIS (a DB of students in US and part of the Homeland Security) use other kind of Coding for the countries. This coding is called "The Federal Information Processing Standard (FIPS) 10-4", and it is different of the code used by Immigration services (another office in the same Homeland Security), the former use ISO-3166-1. In the FIPS code Chile is CI which is the Ivory coast in the ISO-3166-1 standard. This situation has generated a lot of problems, traveling to Immigration offices, then back to DMV, then office of Customs and Border Protection in the airport, etc. We still cannot get our driver license for this and other problems. But what is still surprising me is the way that public workers and bureaucrats try to avoid problems instead of resolve it. That way they have been seeing me again and again, week after week, with little sense of empathy for our situation and less sense of optimality for their own job. so... if (CodeStd==FIPS && CountryCode==CI) then Country=CHILE
Re:what i would say (Score:3, Interesting)
Absolutely it is. Killing a thief on your property, in the act, is morally acceptable. It's a perfectly civilized act in response to the uncivilized act of the thief.
And when you can't get a loan? (Score:5, Interesting)
And when you find you can't get a loan / get a mortgage / have other credit problems because of this mistaken identity getting entered into a central credit agency that your bank refers to?
It happened to me: Experian got information wrong about me and they refused to change my records until I took a train to London to speak to the council officers who kindly agreed to speak to Experian on the phone, and explained that they held incorrect records about me. Local government officials, thank you. Experian - dodgy commercial operation that doesn't care about people.
Re:what i would say (Score:3, Interesting)
Ten points if your tell them your address is
445 12th Street SW
Washington, DC 20554
And get them to actually send correspondence there.
(That's the office of the FCC, and my first choice anytime a spammer would like my mailing address.)
Re:what i would say (Score:1, Interesting)
I tried all that. It didn't work for me, when 'MCI' collectors kept calling on my brand new AT&T cell phone for somebody I never heard of... they also wouldn't give me their name and address (just 'MCI')... I ended up getting rid of the phone to stop it.
Re:what i would say (Score:3, Interesting)
Best lawyer wins. A good lawyer can prove anything they need to.
Nope, a laywer can only do so much when they have no proof.
Using force only helps them convince others you are guilty of something.
Of what? Removing a trespasser from your own property? I'm tired of this logic; sometimes force is acceptable and called for.