Glyn Moody writes "Russia's president, Dmitry Medvedev, has decreed a new holiday for his country: Programmer's Day. Appropriately enough, it will be celebrated on the 256th day of the year: September 13th (September 12th for a leap year). Do programmers deserve their own holiday ahead of other professions? Should the rest of the world follow suit?"
List of professions that I think are probably more deserving of their own holiday:
teachers
doctors & other medical professionals
social workers
scientists & mathematicians
mathematicians
firemen/coast guard/rescue workers
artists, musicians, and writers
Of course, some of these are sorta already commemorated by labor day, and I would have also put farmers on the list if most weren't just corporate farms these days. I also thought about including inventors (it'd be nice for encouraging kids to be creative a
Programmers are teachers, scientists, mathematicians and artists all in one. In that I've never met a programmer unwilling to share their insight and knowledge, hypothesize, construct a proof or make something cool appear on the screen.
There are teachers', doctors' mathematicians' days in Russia. I am not sure about other but perhaps they exist too. A relevant story.
A Russian grandpa is asked how often he drinks vodka. He replies "Not very often, only when it is a holiday or after a sauna. For example what holiday is it today?" It appeared that no one could recall any holiday today. The grandpa ponders "Hmm sounds like a good day to go to a sauna"
You're looking at this from the US perspective. In Russia, most of your list already exists:
Teachers Day: October 5 Medial Workers Day: Third Sunday of June Social Workers Day: Second Sunday of June Russian Science Day: February 8 Firemen's Day: April 30
In addition, Russia has commemorative days for public prosecutors, printed media, mass media, students, men, women, youth, mothers, tourists, elderly people, salesmen and service workers, police, geologists, cosmonauts, chemical industry workers, librarians, border guards, light industry workers, inventors, fishermen, postal workers, metallurgists, children's books, Slavic literature and culture, railroad workers, aviators, construction workers, miners, oil and gas workers, forestry workers, machinists and equipment workers, farmers, customs workers, automotive workers, security service workers, rescuers, power engineering specialists, and every concievable type of military workers.
Adding a Programmer's Day to this list is not particularly jarring or surprising.
Yeah, and we all know that Tetris didn't do anything other than create an entire new market for games and changed the face of gaming by introducing portable gaming as a real means of gaming. Without Tetris we wouldn't have the DS or PSP.
Whoever modded parent "troll" is a jackass. Tetris really was a profoundly important game; given its popularity and the market it spawned, it's probably up there with, say, Visicalc and Mosaic on the list of (so to speak) game-changing software -- programs that weren't just commercially successful, but created a market for a whole new type of computing. Given that today's cell phone games -- many of which are very Tetris-like -- use more processing power than what was generally available on the desktop when Tetris was first introduced, dismissing its importance because it was "just a game" is a mistake.
Yeah, but it looks like they have a plenty of _real_ programmers. It's quite striking that MIT didn't win the ACM competition in at least 10 years:
# 2009 - Saint Petersburg University of Information Technologies, Mechanics and Optics, Russia # 2008 - Saint Petersburg University of Information Technologies, Mechanics and Optics, Russia # 2007 - University of Warsaw, Poland # 2006 - Saratov State University, Russia # 2005 - Shanghai Jiao Tong University, China # 2004 - Saint Petersburg University of Information Te
It's ironic you make that joke, since one of the first reforms the Bolsheviks made during the October Revolution was reducing the working day to 8 hours.
Where did I defend the Bolsheviks? They created a heinous regime. I simply commented on the irony of the OP portraying them as stern taskmasters, as one of the ways they initially won over the people of Russia was by reducing working hours.
Sorry if my post came across as a 'Youre a commie!' type of comment.:)
However, they were extremely stern taskmasters. What do you think happened to people who did not work, worked less, or decided they wanted to quite their job and do something different? I'll give you a hint: It was a hell of a lot worse than getting fired or making less money which is what happens when you skip work in the USA. When you completely remove incentives to excel the only way anything gets done is if you punish people who d
Criminal punishments for skipped workdays were in effect from 1940 to 1946 - essentially during the WWII.
Later, there were punishments for 'social parasitism' if you were unemployed for more than 4 consecutive months (not counting vacations, medical leaves, full-time education, etc.). And the Soviet government guaranteed employment for everyone.
So stop telling fictional horror stories. There were enough real horror stories about the Soviet regime.
I think you have no idea how horrible things in Russia actually were before the Revolution. "Earn something for a full days work," bwahahaha. Yes, in retrospect Communism was a terrible mistake. But it didn't happen in a vacuum -- there was a reason people were willing to fight against the existing system.
No doubt things were bad in Russia, but the Bolsheviks were not the ones with the solutions. There were lots of pro-democracy and moderate socialists who on the rise before the Bolsheviks seized power. Those were the ones who could have turned Russia's industrial revolution into a good thing, but Lenin (and later Stalin) basically had them killed and exiled. To say that the Bolsheviks were the champions of workers welfare is just crazy.:)
Well, it's not all black and white here. The idea was to eliminate worker extortion. A concept you might know from not being able to quit when the working condition / pay ration becomes unbearable. Their attempt obviously failed. But the spirit was undoubtedly a good one. (As it usually is.)
Their main faults were to think that "everyone is equal", while some still were "more equal" than others. Thereby again creating the old hierarchy, or "boss paradise". (Originally, those "more equal" were just there to manage the transition, and then dissolve. Which for reasons of basic human behavior never happened.) We must accept, that humans first think of themselves. Even when we give, we do so, because it feels good to us, and because we follow our goals. If your goal is to make someone else big, and that makes you happy, you still do it for yourself. So this does not mean it is bad. And as for being egoistic, being the opposite of altruistic sacrifice, I can just quote someone I do not like very much, but who is right: “It stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there’s someone collecting sacrificial offerings. Where there’s service, there's someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master.” — Ayn Rand
So my solution (yes, I thought about this quite a bit) is very simple: In such a new "company", everyone can work for multiple people and let multiple people work for him. So it's not a hierarchy anymore, but a free graph. Which means that not only a boss can prefer one of his employees, but an employee can prefer one of his bosses. Or in proper non-biased terms: A service provider and a money provider, or two service providers, (two money providers would be strange, but thinkable), have equal freedoms. If one of your "bosses" offers a crappy deal, you can say no, and take a better one. Just as he can take a better one than you. You don't have to have any long-term contracts (although you can). You can simply work on a project basis. This would not have been possible, two decades ago. But with computers being ubiquitous, the whole contract-, "self-employment"- and tax management, can be automated. Even as a service. I'd try that. Even if just to see the flaws, and fix them.
Communism is not perfect, and I like free market economy. But some things need to be said "NO" to.
You: "I want to work for 10 hours!"
Boss: "Oh, everyone! He can work for 10 hours, that means you can work for 10 hours!"
or:
Boss: "Look, that Other Company makes employees work 12 hours a day! That means we can do that too!"
Worker: "But, that's not fair..."
Boss: "Law doesn't agree!"
Some things need to be mandated through legislation. Is maximum work hours something to be mandated? I don't know, it depends on situation. If bosses don't abuse their power, then sure, sometimes I'd love to be able to work extended hours. But if you live in 19th century and you're a coal miner or a factory worker...
The worker doesnt have to go along with whatever the boss wants. It is a free country. If my boss said that he was going to pay me half of what I make now and ask me to work 16 hours a day I would quit. Sure bosses will try to get as much as they can, but that doesnt mean the workers have to go along with it. Other companies have to compete for workers. That is part of what makes the economy viable.
I am not a total free market ideologue, I do agree that some things need to be regulated. (particularly risk taking in the financial sector) But generally speaking I believe that workers and employers should be able to come to their own agreements with regards to compensation relative to amount of work done.
I think, in what is fast becoming a fascist state of one part gangsterism and one part corporatism, the programmers they're talking about aren't the programmers you're thinking about.
Do programmers deserve their own holiday ahead of other professions?
Probably not ahead of scientists/mathematicians/enginneers. But still, pretty cool.
And can't but think it will be yet another forgotten day - secretary's day, siblings day, etc. All exist, all forgotten. Every day is proclaimed something and the novelty wore off or never caught on. Probably the only novel thing would be to have a "regular" day where nothing is officially remembered/celebrated/commerated/pissed_on/whatever.
"God performed surgery when he removed Adam's rib, so my profession is indeed the oldest" said the doctor. "But before that God performed feats of engineering to create the Earth from void and chaos, so my profession must be the oldest" countered the engineer. The programmer looked at them contemptuously and replied: "gee, where do you think void and chaos came from?"
In Russia a "professional holiday" is NOT a real holiday and it is NOT a day off. It is a mere sign of appreciation for a certain professional activity. You might hear nice words about your buddies on TV and Radio and you have one more reason to have some drinks that day. Most of "important" professions in Russia have their professional days -- from teachers, doctors all way to police and steel-mill workers. It is no surprise whatsoever that IT workers (aka programmers) get their professional day too.
> Well, in Russia, police officers, medical workers, and every other profession actually have their own "days" as well. ^^^^^^ That, and also there seems to be a misunderstanding here, aka lost in translation. It's not a holiday in a sense that the whole country has a day off. It's just an official nifty name for this particular day. Also a good occasion to praise the work of your friendly programmer in the next cubicle.
Two bananas were standing on the river bank in the dead of winter. A turd floats by and says 'come on in, the water's great!' One banana says to the other, 'you believe that shit?'
What the OP is talking about is Obama's Speech [youtube.com] at the Pentagon. Watch at about 4:00 minutes in, and listen to what the President is saying... "On this first National Day of Service and Remembrance, we can summon once more that ordinary goodness of America to serve our communities..."
Armed, combat trained and battle tested right wing leaning organization = Patriotic citizens!! Left leaning college students delivering food to seniors and reading to school kids = Paramilitary revolutionary force!!! OH NOEZ!
By calling it "national service" day, rather than "terrorists kicked our ass and now we have to act like idiots" day, we take the day back in some small way.
Yes. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
List of professions that I think are probably more deserving of their own holiday:
Of course, some of these are sorta already commemorated by labor day, and I would have also put farmers on the list if most weren't just corporate farms these days. I also thought about including inventors (it'd be nice for encouraging kids to be creative a
Re:Yes. (Score:4, Insightful)
Programmers are teachers, scientists, mathematicians and artists all in one. In that I've never met a programmer unwilling to share their insight and knowledge, hypothesize, construct a proof or make something cool appear on the screen.
Parent
Re:Yes. (Score:5, Interesting)
A Russian grandpa is asked how often he drinks vodka. He replies "Not very often, only when it is a holiday or after a sauna. For example what holiday is it today?" It appeared that no one could recall any holiday today. The grandpa ponders "Hmm sounds like a good day to go to a sauna"
Parent
Russia already has most of these. (Score:4, Informative)
Why is the parent rated troll?
You're looking at this from the US perspective. In Russia, most of your list already exists:
Teachers Day: October 5
Medial Workers Day: Third Sunday of June
Social Workers Day: Second Sunday of June
Russian Science Day: February 8
Firemen's Day: April 30
In addition, Russia has commemorative days for public prosecutors, printed media, mass media, students, men, women, youth, mothers, tourists, elderly people, salesmen and service workers, police, geologists, cosmonauts, chemical industry workers, librarians, border guards, light industry workers, inventors, fishermen, postal workers, metallurgists, children's books, Slavic literature and culture, railroad workers, aviators, construction workers, miners, oil and gas workers, forestry workers, machinists and equipment workers, farmers, customs workers, automotive workers, security service workers, rescuers, power engineering specialists, and every concievable type of military workers.
Adding a Programmer's Day to this list is not particularly jarring or surprising.
-Graham
Parent
It is usually celebrated by... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:It is usually celebrated by... (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:It is usually celebrated by... (Score:4, Insightful)
Whoever modded parent "troll" is a jackass. Tetris really was a profoundly important game; given its popularity and the market it spawned, it's probably up there with, say, Visicalc and Mosaic on the list of (so to speak) game-changing software -- programs that weren't just commercially successful, but created a market for a whole new type of computing. Given that today's cell phone games -- many of which are very Tetris-like -- use more processing power than what was generally available on the desktop when Tetris was first introduced, dismissing its importance because it was "just a game" is a mistake.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, but it looks like they have a plenty of _real_ programmers. It's quite striking that MIT didn't win the ACM competition in at least 10 years:
# 2009 - Saint Petersburg University of Information Technologies, Mechanics and Optics, Russia
# 2008 - Saint Petersburg University of Information Technologies, Mechanics and Optics, Russia
# 2007 - University of Warsaw, Poland
# 2006 - Saratov State University, Russia
# 2005 - Shanghai Jiao Tong University, China
# 2004 - Saint Petersburg University of Information Te
Re:It is usually celebrated by... (Score:4, Insightful)
Ah Russia, Poland and China... where software is free.
Parent
Re:It is usually celebrated by... (Score:4, Insightful)
Nice correlation. Now about that causation...
Parent
In Soviet Russia, (Score:4, Funny)
Programming Celebrates You!
Humm .. (Score:5, Funny)
I would have had it on the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 8th, 16th, 32th, 64th, 128th and 256th day of the year, if I was to choose ;)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Good thing you skipped the 0th day. I'd be expect the conversations with the folks in HR would be less than productive.
Re:Humm .. (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:Humm .. (Score:4, Informative)
Good thing you skipped the 0th day.
2^0 = 1
Parent
Re:Humm .. (Score:5, Insightful)
Good thing you skipped the 0th day. I'd be expect the conversations with the folks in HR would be less than productive.
Is there ever any other kind of conversation with the folks in HR?
Parent
Re:Humm .. (Score:5, Funny)
32th?
Yes, Thirty-tooth.
Influenced by the dental profession.
Parent
In honor of Programmer's Day (Score:4, Funny)
All programmers in Russia are permitted to work only a single 8 hour shift
today instead of the usual 16 hour shift !
Re:In honor of Programmer's Day (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Sorry if my post came across as a 'Youre a commie!' type of comment. :)
However, they were extremely stern taskmasters. What do you think happened to people who did not work, worked less, or decided they wanted to quite their job and do something different? I'll give you a hint: It was a hell of a lot worse than getting fired or making less money which is what happens when you skip work in the USA. When you completely remove incentives to excel the only way anything gets done is if you punish people who d
Re:In honor of Programmer's Day (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe you should learn some Soviet history?
Criminal punishments for skipped workdays were in effect from 1940 to 1946 - essentially during the WWII.
Later, there were punishments for 'social parasitism' if you were unemployed for more than 4 consecutive months (not counting vacations, medical leaves, full-time education, etc.). And the Soviet government guaranteed employment for everyone.
So stop telling fictional horror stories. There were enough real horror stories about the Soviet regime.
Parent
Re:In honor of Programmer's Day (Score:4, Insightful)
I think you have no idea how horrible things in Russia actually were before the Revolution. "Earn something for a full days work," bwahahaha. Yes, in retrospect Communism was a terrible mistake. But it didn't happen in a vacuum -- there was a reason people were willing to fight against the existing system.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
No doubt things were bad in Russia, but the Bolsheviks were not the ones with the solutions. There were lots of pro-democracy and moderate socialists who on the rise before the Bolsheviks seized power. Those were the ones who could have turned Russia's industrial revolution into a good thing, but Lenin (and later Stalin) basically had them killed and exiled. To say that the Bolsheviks were the champions of workers welfare is just crazy. :)
Re:In honor of Programmer's Day (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, it's not all black and white here. The idea was to eliminate worker extortion. A concept you might know from not being able to quit when the working condition / pay ration becomes unbearable.
Their attempt obviously failed. But the spirit was undoubtedly a good one. (As it usually is.)
Their main faults were to think that "everyone is equal", while some still were "more equal" than others. Thereby again creating the old hierarchy, or "boss paradise".
(Originally, those "more equal" were just there to manage the transition, and then dissolve. Which for reasons of basic human behavior never happened.)
We must accept, that humans first think of themselves. Even when we give, we do so, because it feels good to us, and because we follow our goals. If your goal is to make someone else big, and that makes you happy, you still do it for yourself. So this does not mean it is bad. And as for being egoistic, being the opposite of altruistic sacrifice, I can just quote someone I do not like very much, but who is right:
“It stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there’s someone collecting sacrificial offerings. Where there’s service, there's someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master.” — Ayn Rand
So my solution (yes, I thought about this quite a bit) is very simple: In such a new "company", everyone can work for multiple people and let multiple people work for him. So it's not a hierarchy anymore, but a free graph. Which means that not only a boss can prefer one of his employees, but an employee can prefer one of his bosses. Or in proper non-biased terms: A service provider and a money provider, or two service providers, (two money providers would be strange, but thinkable), have equal freedoms. If one of your "bosses" offers a crappy deal, you can say no, and take a better one. Just as he can take a better one than you. You don't have to have any long-term contracts (although you can). You can simply work on a project basis.
This would not have been possible, two decades ago. But with computers being ubiquitous, the whole contract-, "self-employment"- and tax management, can be automated. Even as a service.
I'd try that. Even if just to see the flaws, and fix them.
Parent
Re:In honor of Programmer's Day (Score:5, Insightful)
Communism is not perfect, and I like free market economy. But some things need to be said "NO" to.
You: "I want to work for 10 hours!"
Boss: "Oh, everyone! He can work for 10 hours, that means you can work for 10 hours!"
or:
Boss: "Look, that Other Company makes employees work 12 hours a day! That means we can do that too!"
Worker: "But, that's not fair..."
Boss: "Law doesn't agree!"
Some things need to be mandated through legislation. Is maximum work hours something to be mandated? I don't know, it depends on situation. If bosses don't abuse their power, then sure, sometimes I'd love to be able to work extended hours. But if you live in 19th century and you're a coal miner or a factory worker...
Would you allow child labor?
Parent
Re:In honor of Programmer's Day (Score:4, Insightful)
The worker doesnt have to go along with whatever the boss wants. It is a free country. If my boss said that he was going to pay me half of what I make now and ask me to work 16 hours a day I would quit. Sure bosses will try to get as much as they can, but that doesnt mean the workers have to go along with it. Other companies have to compete for workers. That is part of what makes the economy viable.
I am not a total free market ideologue, I do agree that some things need to be regulated. (particularly risk taking in the financial sector) But generally speaking I believe that workers and employers should be able to come to their own agreements with regards to compensation relative to amount of work done.
Parent
Wetware Not Software (Score:5, Insightful)
I think, in what is fast becoming a fascist state of one part gangsterism and one part corporatism, the programmers they're talking about aren't the programmers you're thinking about.
Probably not ahead of scientists/math./engineers (Score:4, Interesting)
Probably not ahead of scientists/mathematicians/enginneers. But still, pretty cool.
And can't but think it will be yet another forgotten day - secretary's day, siblings day, etc. All exist, all forgotten. Every day is proclaimed something and the novelty wore off or never caught on. Probably the only novel thing would be to have a "regular" day where nothing is officially remembered/celebrated/commerated/pissed_on/whatever.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Not to mention mattress sale^w^wpresidents day.
answer (Score:3, Insightful)
No.
Should the rest of the world follow suit?
No.
Only REAL Programmers! (Score:3, Funny)
People who do web sites are not programmers, unless you write it in C,FORTRAN, or assembler!
Be a real programmer.
http://www.sorehands.com/humor/real1.htm [sorehands.com]
Frontpage? (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Oldest Profession (Score:5, Funny)
Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but the "worlds oldest profession" probably needs its own holiday too.
It is a holiday that has been a long time in coming.
Re:Oldest Profession (Score:5, Funny)
Isn't that the 14th of February?
Parent
Programming IS The Oldest Profession (Score:5, Funny)
"God performed surgery when he removed Adam's rib, so my profession is indeed the oldest" said the doctor. "But before that God performed feats of engineering to create the Earth from void and chaos, so my profession must be the oldest" countered the engineer. The programmer looked at them contemptuously and replied: "gee, where do you think void and chaos came from?"
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but the "worlds oldest profession" probably needs its own holiday too.
It is a holiday that has been a long time in coming.
Bakers? Why not! Without bakers, we wouldn't have bread which led to beer!
Let's hear it for Mr. Flibble for sticking up for the bakers!!
I was referring to a profession involving a different kind of yeast.
Yes, more holidays please (Score:3, Funny)
"Do programmers deserve their own holiday ahead of other professions? Should the rest of the world follow suit?"
Yes. Every conceivable profession should have its own holiday, on its own day, and each of these holidays should apply to all workers alike.
"Stevens! Where have you been? I'm still waiting on that documentation!"
"Oh? I'm just here to pick up my mail. Don't you know? Today is Auto Mechanics Day."
"I want that documentation by tomorrow!"
"Oh boy. I'm so sorry, but tomorrow is Plumber's Day!"
hold your horses (Score:5, Informative)
In Russia a "professional holiday" is NOT a real holiday and it is NOT a day off. It is a mere sign of appreciation for a certain professional activity. You might hear nice words about your buddies on TV and Radio and you have one more reason to have some drinks that day. Most of "important" professions in Russia have their professional days -- from teachers, doctors all way to police and steel-mill workers. It is no surprise whatsoever that IT workers (aka programmers) get their professional day too.
Re:Seems odd... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
> Well, in Russia, police officers, medical workers, and every other profession actually have their own "days" as well.
^^^^^^
That, and also there seems to be a misunderstanding here, aka lost in translation. It's not a holiday in a sense that the whole country has a day off. It's just an official nifty name for this particular day. Also a good occasion to praise the work of your friendly programmer in the next cubicle.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:At least... (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:At least... (Score:5, Funny)
I really wish I could laugh at your ignorance. Patriot Day [wikipedia.org] started well before Obama came along.
YOU LIE!!!!
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I really wish I could laugh at your ignorance.
What the OP is talking about is Obama's Speech [youtube.com] at the Pentagon. Watch at about 4:00 minutes in, and listen to what the President is saying ... "On this first National Day of Service and Remembrance, we can summon once more that ordinary goodness of America to serve our communities ..."
Re:At least... (Score:4, Informative)
Armed, combat trained and battle tested right wing leaning organization = Patriotic citizens!!
Left leaning college students delivering food to seniors and reading to school kids = Paramilitary revolutionary force!!! OH NOEZ!
Parent
Re:At least... (Score:5, Interesting)
By calling it "national service" day, rather than "terrorists kicked our ass and now we have to act like idiots" day, we take the day back in some small way.
Parent
Re:At least... (Score:4, Interesting)
I thought we were drumming up support for another try....
Parent