No App Store For Microsoft's Zune HD 351
Xerfas writes 'Microsoft's Zune HD, set to go on sale Tuesday, will not feature an open application store like its competitor the iPod Touch. It will come with some unique features, though, like an HD radio tuner, and with software that has been well-received by users. Those capabilities will determine whether the ZuneHD sells well — and whether Microsoft decides to keep selling its own music player, said Matt Rosoff, an analyst at Directions on Microsoft.' The Zune marketing manager was quoted in the Seattle Times on whether the Zune would open up for 3rd-party apps, and he gave a response of such mind-numbing PR-speak that John Gruber of Daring Fireball was moved to provide this English translation: "No, because our mobile strategy is a convoluted mess."
Let me fix that foryou.. (Score:5, Funny)
"Microsoft's Zune HD, set to go on sale Tuesday, will not feature a tightly controlled by control freaks with degrees in control freakery application store like its competitor the iPod Touch."
Fixed.
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Re:Let me fix that foryou.. (Score:4, Funny)
In other news, I'm going out for a bike ride like my competitor Lance Armstrong . . .
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If your bike cost you a couple hundred million dollars, you'd consider yourself a competitor too.
Re:Let me fix that foryou.. (Score:4, Funny)
Better still, FTA: "f you look around the company at other places where things like this are important, Windows Mobile rises to the top.".
If you are putting yourself in a place where Windows Mobile rises to the top, you are in a very bad place.
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Re:Let me fix that foryou.. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sorry but having an app store and causing problems for some developers beats having no app store at all.
Note: I think iTunes 9's focus on improving the app sync and letting you layout your iPod Touch/iPhones screens speaks volumes about how successful the app store has been.
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Who says there'll be no app store? There might well be plenty, if MS don't restrict it so that you can only run apps from one store.
No one says that the Windows platform (or Linux, OS X, Amiga or whatever) would be better if you could only download apps from one app store. And clearly, not having that doesn't mean you then have nowhere to obtain apps from!
Re:Let me fix that foryou.. (Score:5, Insightful)
> Who says there'll be no app store?
Read the article you moron. The head of Zune development at Microsoft said so.
> There might well be plenty, if MS don't restrict it so that you can only
> run apps from one store.
You cannot run any apps from any store.
> No one says that the Windows platform (or Linux, OS X, Amiga or whatever)
> would be better if you could only download apps from one app store.
That is not true, plenty of people are saying just that. There are more malware titles for Windows than legitimate titles. If Windows 7 had a version that could only run signed apps that had already been certified by Microsoft to not be malware, there are users who would pay more for that version of Windows, especially businesses who have short lists of approved apps. It would run Photoshop and Office and AutoDesk and so on but not malware.
Honestly, I think you need working examples of somebody doing this better before you knock the App Store. It's a huge success. Lots of developers, lots of sophisticated apps, lots of satisfied users. I have a friend who in 10 years of Mac use never installed a 3rd party app at all, yet on his iPhone he has 10-20 apps he installed himself. I have another friend who has used a lot of Mac and PC software over the past 10 years, but never, ever paid for it. He also has 10-20 apps on his iPhone and he paid for them all, yet it only cost $75. So there are a lot of things working about the App Store that are going to be replicated on the desktop, not the other way around.
Ubuntu should have a mode "only run signed apps" and the Ubuntu people themselves should test and approve a list of 3rd party apps. Then a user could choose this safer, more secure native app mode if it's appropriate to what they're doing. Considering only about 10% of all computer users ever create any of their own software, this is going to be the default mode for computing going forward. Especially when we have a wide-open HTML5 app environment for running arbitrary stuff.
> And clearly, not having that doesn't mean you then have nowhere to obtain apps from!
Again, you have to read the article to make a contribution to this conversation. The whole point of this article is YOU CAN ONLY GET ZUNE HD APPS FROM MICROSOFT. NO 3RD PARTIES. Even if the apps come later, they are still all built-in apps. They are exactly like iPhone apps were the first year. Whatever you said or agreed with in 2007 about iPhone apps is what you should be saying right now about Zune HD if not a hypocrite. The Zune HD is like an iPod touch from 2007 with no 3rd party native apps, yet the Zune HD also does not have HTML5 like iPod touch, so it's even less 3rd party developer friendly.
Would you care to give an example? (Score:3, Insightful)
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Microsoft has never locked down a general purpose computing device and told me what I can or can't run on it. They may have made cross platform stuff difficult, but they never banned it outright with DRM lockdowns.
Ever.
Re:Would you care to give an example? (Score:4, Interesting)
It cannot be said that Microsoft didn't lock them down, even if you said the lockdowns weren't completely effective. And don't forget that people have been prosecuted/fined/sent to prison for modifying them so that unofficial programs can be run on them.
On the PC front, I have 3 words: Protected Video Path [wikipedia.org]
Re:Let me fix that foryou.. (Score:4, Informative)
With introducing incompatibilities in document formats between Office versions, and introducing incompatibilities between SMB versions (just so that the Samba team can't reverse-engineer it), I think MS is just as evil as Apple. And no, I don't like Apple one freaking bit, it makes me vomit - but so does MS.
Re:Let me fix that foryou.. (Score:4, Funny)
You missed a bit:
Microsoft's Zune HD, set to go on sale Tuesday, will not feature a tightly controlled by control freaks with degrees in control freakery application store like its competitor the iPod Touch. Instead any Seattle based company called Microsoft will be allowed to place applications on the device with no restrictions
Re:Let me fix that for you, also (Score:3, Funny)
For the record, every time I grab an iPod I feel like I'm prying it from Steve Jobs cold undead hands.
Fixed that for you...
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"Microsoft's Zune HD, set to go on sale Tuesday, will not feature a tightly controlled by control freaks with degrees in control freakery application store like its competitor the iPod Touch, and therefore may or may not work and may or may not do anything you want it to do"
Further corrected.
Brett
I want my mp3 player to play music (Score:4, Insightful)
I have a cheap sansa. It plays mp3/ogg/flac. It plays little xvid videos and plays and records FM.
What more do I need?
Are these damn players becoming like cell phones? Do app stores matter? Makes no sense to me.
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Are these damn players becoming like cell phones? Do app stores matter? Makes no sense to me.
Here's what these music / video players need: An app to make them into a smart phone. I'd buy that for a dollar!
Re:I want my mp3 player to play music (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I want my mp3 player to play music (Score:4, Interesting)
Do apps matter?
That depends on a couple factors, the first is what you want or need in a portable device, and secondly what is your device capable of.
for me having a phone with GPS and internet capability means that I'm never more than inches away from a map, thus I'm lost a whole lot less than I used to be. Product reviews and internet prices are always in my pocket, so I'm a smarter consumer even for impulse buys. If I get stuck away from home in a rainstorm on my bike, I can check to see if I'm screwed or if the rain will blow over while I sit under a bridge and wait.
So no, apps are not needed, but they sure made my life better without having to carry another item.
Sheldon
Re:I want my mp3 player to play music (Score:5, Insightful)
You may not be the intended audience. If you have to carry a bare bones phone because (for example) you have one provided by an employer, or you cant have a camera (security reasons), or you don't want to upgrade and lose your ancient awesome phone plan, carrying an mp3 player that also doubles as a browser / calendar / email client / GPS / everything else is convenient and awesome.
If you just want it to play music, it's way too expensive and a waste of money.
Remember: not everyone just wants music.
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Bear in mind that, the iPod touch is not apple's music player device. Apple have the iPod shuffle/nano/classic for that purpose. As steve jobs himself stated in their recent iPod announcement, the iPod touch is a portable games console.
Games Console? (Score:2)
"As steve jobs himself stated in their recent iPod announcement, the iPod touch is a portable games console."
Yes, unlike other game consoles you can move it from one TV to another in your pocket! Awesome!
it does (Score:5, Interesting)
Are these damn players becoming like cell phones? Do app stores matter? Makes no sense to me.
In the case of the iPod Touch, it's become a highly popular gaming platform, not to mention having things like iCal, wifi, safari bundled, etc etc. It's either filled a void by providing a hybrid PDA+music player+gaming device, or created that void and told people that they need this. Imho it's a bit of both.
Re:I want my mp3 player to play music (Score:5, Insightful)
First, when making an argument, consider you are not the only person in the world, so yes, someone somewhere probably needs something more/different/whatever.
And yes, App stores matter. Developers like them for saless. Non-geeks like them because it's a trustworthy point to get software that's pretty much guaranteed to be malware-free and won't hijack your system. Ubuntu, in fact, has an essentially same functionality in synaptic. Perhaps, if they were to leverage that into a store, it could help linux grow further.
Not all software can be free software. Can't sell support contracts for games and the like.
There is also cool software to be had for the iPhone - like some small apps to help you learn chinese or japanese, etc. App stores help promote this type of thing.
Re:I want my mp3 player to play music (Score:5, Interesting)
Your opinion of what is relevant in the market is proportional to how much of that market you comprise.
The fact of the matter is, these apps and a convenient source for them are very much in demand. I highly recommend you at least borrow someone's iPod Touch of iPhone, check out the app store (right from the device!) and see if there isn't something there you would like to have.
My 3GS is not only my phone, my ebook reader, my mp3 player, my backup navigation device, my portable dictionary, my (surprisingly good) camera, my portable gaming device, compass, and, and even a crude level, in fact it's the first device I've owned that's fast enough and user friendly enough that I'd call it a general purpose portable computer. I held out on getting an iPhone until the 3GS and it was worth the wait.
I'll get off your lawn now.
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wait, people use the iPod Touch to play music?? That's stupid, the device is huge! I use a nano for music and a touch for apps, mostly games. The Touch is actually a pretty decent gaming device, with a wide variety of great little games with lots of free demos and almost every game is les
Why they matter (Score:5, Insightful)
Because they are finally powerful enough to replace laptops for many uses.
I just came back from Europe, on the way over I was flying next to someone who bought a Touch just so she could have email and web support while there, but without the weight of a laptop (she was going on a long biking trip). But she was also using a few applications like language tutorials and so on...
And of course, she could also have music while biking.
You device is fine for you, but it's nice to have devices that can do enough to make laptops a truly optional choice.
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What gets me is that they are eroding storage space, and somehow expecting me to not notice thanks to being blinded by bloat. Looking at the latest iPod selection, only two models will actually hold all my music now (the $400 touch, and the Classic, which will probably go away in a year or so). The Zune page is being sucky right now, but I'm pretty sure they only have 2 players that could hold my library with room for growth. I don't think that the ability to "shuffle" my music collection is a feature, n
Classic lives on as does space (Score:4, Insightful)
What gets me is that they are eroding storage space...and the Classic, which will probably go away in a year or so
That's what everyone said about the Classic last year. And in fact, the Classic has *gained* storage space in the recent update (updated to 160GB from 120GB). How is that erosion?
The classic will be around just long enough for flash devices to support similar storage and then, it might go away. But it's clear Classic level storage is going to stick around, there are plenty of other people with large libraries of music.
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It is a valid opinion. Some people do want to carry lots of devices around.
And those who don't wouldn't buy a Zune anyway but rather a modern Windows Mobile phone - they can do pretty much everything nowadays.
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Yeah, some people love walking around with a Batman like utility belt full of all their devices. So far we have music player, cell phone, GPS, computer, video player....
Re:I want my mp3 player to play music (Score:4, Informative)
You exaggerate. Currently I carry around nothing more than my cellphone and an iPod. Sure, sometimes I bring a camera, but generally my cellphone camera is adequate, but when I really want to take pictures a real camera is better. Sure, sometimes I bring my laptop, but most of the time my phone is adiquate (if not optimal) for quick browsing and email.
This is the point. All in one devices generally don't match specialty devices in terms of functionality. My phone is really good at being a phone, but isn't the best when it comes to playing music, taking photos, or general computing. My iPod is 100x better than my phone at playing music (especially when you consider there is no smart phones on the market that have nearly enough storage space to hold any decent amount of music). My camera is 100x better than my phones camera. My phone does have all the GPS I need, especially since I haven't found a need for it. My laptop is some order of magnitude better than my phone at being a computer. And having a portable DVD player is around infinitely better at playing video than any phone I've ever seen (don't own one, the laptop is actually better than most portable DVD devices). Why would I want only one device that fulfills one need rather well, but really sucks at doing everything else?
Why would I want to pay a shit ton extra for a phone that does a whole bunch of stuff that I can already do much better?
So, no apps, or just not yet? (Score:2)
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You know that you don't need an iTunes like interface on an iPod touch? It has an app store app built into it.
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Re:So, no apps, or just not yet? (Score:4, Informative)
This is a major oversight if Microsoft isn't going to allow 3rd party apps. Maybe when they get around to supporting it, you'll be able to install apps without using an iTunes-style interface. Directly from app's website perhaps?
It's just "Not Yet". This article is extremely biased, check out the Engadget article for actual info, not fanboy FUD.
http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/15/zune-hd-3d-gaming-and-app-downloads-confirmed/ [engadget.com]
-Taylor
Is a store really necessary (Score:2)
Sure a dedicated app store is a great way to funnel your customers to your door. But that's like saying you only have one store available to you, and you have to pay in Stokessd-town dollars. I'm sure you would have less total customers than if the unit was open to applications from anywhere, although you'll most likely collect more stokessd-town dollars.
If my quick read of the article (what there is of it), there "does not have plans for an iPhone-like app platform", but that doesn't meant that apps cann
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Sure a dedicated app store is a great way to funnel your customers to your door. But that's like saying you only have one store available to you, and you have to pay in Stokessd-town dollars. I'm sure you would have less total customers than if the unit was open to applications from anywhere, although you'll most likely collect more stokessd-town dollars.
You're only seeing half the picture. Having a built in store that collects all the apps in one place is a feature and customers really, really, really like being able to get everything from one place in one consistent way. This leaves phone implementors with three choices:
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Microsoft has done a very consistent job of managing the Zune. That management got it where it is today, and I see this revelation as being consistent with all the previous management decisions.
And where it is today is right at 2% market share [marketwatch.com] (fifth paragraph from the bottom).
What about an SDK (Score:2)
Marketing speak is pretty funny (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's see, it's set to go on sale just about now. So how exactly has the software "been well-received by users"???
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Beta testers. They have opinions that are ignored unless they properly align with prepared marketing assets.
Gruber is irrelevant. (Score:2)
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Gruber may be fanboi extraordinare, but come on! Saying "windows mobile strategy is a convoluted mess" is like saying "the Pope is a Catholic"
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There's an old saying that goes "If Hitler says 2+2=4, you can't argue with him." Did you RTFA? How is this NOT a convoluted mess?:
It's hard to say right now. If you look around the company at other places where things like this are important, Windows Mobile rises to the top... Right now our product roadmaps didn't line up perfectly for us to snap to what they're doing or vice versa. That being said, we know people want things like this on their devices so we're going to build them ourselves, they're going to be super high-quality, and they're going to be free.
Down the road if there's a way we can work with Windows Mobile or another group inside the company that's building an app store and take advantage of that, that's something we'll look into.
This thing has been in development for YEARS and they're JUST NOW realizing that maybe people will want to run apps on them, and they're announcing that they don't know how, if, or when that will happen? I don't care who says it--John Gruber, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, it doesn't matter--it is clearly a convoluted mess.
For fuck's sake, why on Earth DIDN'T MS just build the Zune
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Wow, biased much? (Score:4, Interesting)
You know, I know this is slashdot and all, but this is a VERY biased article.
They don't have an open app store yet because they want all the games to be free, and developed in house, which isn't as bad as this summary makes it sound.
They aren't merging with windows mobile's store because they want to make extra sure the Zune is perfect, and I absolutely don't blame them.
I'm pretty annoyed that whoever wrote this summary was this biased, the Zune HD looks awesome and its really unfair to try to make it look bad on a site that gets 2 million hits a day. If it ends up being bad, that's one thing, but give it a freakin chance.
-Taylor
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Someone is very biased, but I'm not sure it was the submitter. The very fact that Zune even has a headline on Slashdot considering its 1% market share and fourth-place finish behind iPod, Sandisk, and "Other" comes close to astroturfing in my book. Zune is irrelevant in the market and pretending this is a viable product launch at ALL is awfully biased in a pro-Microsoft way.
They don't have an app store yet because it's hard and they don't want to invest in it for a potentially dying platform.
They aren't m
Re:Wow, biased much? (Score:5, Insightful)
Someone is very biased, but I'm not sure it was the submitter. The very fact that Zune even has a headline on Slashdot considering its 1% market share and fourth-place finish behind iPod, Sandisk, and "Other" comes close to astroturfing in my book. Zune is irrelevant in the market and pretending this is a viable product launch at ALL is awfully biased in a pro-Microsoft way.
They don't have an app store yet because it's hard and they don't want to invest in it for a potentially dying platform.
They aren't merging with Windows Mobile because that strategy is a mess (6.5? 7.0?) and a moving target. ("Make extra sure the Zune is perfect"? What does that even mean?)
The marketing folks at Microsoft are trying hard to spin, but their explanations make no sense if you examine how the current market leader won.
Really? The current market leader won by also not having an app store right away.
And this isn't astroturfing, as far as I'm concerned. I'm genuinely excited about the ZuneHD. Builtin HD radio, the first device with NVidia's Tegra processor for mobile 3D graphics, and a supposedly beautiful OLED screen are all reasons why this device is worth reporting on.
And I'm not a MS fanboy, I dumped windows mobile YEARS ago (thank god) for my iPhone, which I eventually dumped for Android. I just think it looks genuinely promising.
-Taylor
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I would argue that the current market leader won despite not having an app store right away. The griping about the lack of one and Apple's 'you just develop using Web widgets' strategy was loud and prolonged.
The iPod Touch/iPhone was lucky in that it didn't have an entrenched direct competitor with a full app store to compete against. The Zune isn't that lucky.
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I would argue that the current market leader won despite not having an app store right away. The griping about the lack of one and Apple's 'you just develop using Web widgets' strategy was loud and prolonged.
The iPod Touch/iPhone was lucky in that it didn't have an entrenched direct competitor with a full app store to compete against. The Zune isn't that lucky.
Fair enough, I agree with that, but it's not a suicide move either, or a sign of non-commitment, as some suggested.
-Taylor
Too Little Too Late (Score:5, Insightful)
The iPhone initially show was in January right after the first Zune came out. I thought "Wow, that's what the Zune SHOULD HAVE BEEN". The Zune might be finally getting there, but now its too late.
Don't get me wrong. The Zune HD is finally turning out to be what it should have been all along. But, it's really not anything different than the iPod Touch and the iPod Touch has a gazillion applications. Well, you say, the original iPhone didn't have an app store, but neither did anyone else. The thing Microsoft must realize is that the Zune has to compete against THIS YEARS iPod Touch.
In marketing, you have something called the "delta". This is the thing that your product has that your competitors don't. When the iPhone came out, the delta was a true to life web browser and easy syncing with your computer. It was the music player/phone/browser that everyone wanted. Since then, everyone has a music player/browser/phone combo. Now, the delta is the app store.
What's the Zune HD's "delta" that will get me to throw out my iPod Touch and line up to buy a Zune? HD Radio? It's hasn't really caught on. OLCD screen? That's a nice touch, but is it that much better than the iPod's screen? The Zune is $10 cheaper? Naw.
Here's what the Zune should have had:
* Compatibility with the XBox. Hey, you got a zillion XBox games, why not make it so they can easily be ported to the Zune?
* Camera that's integrated with Twitter/Facebook/Flickr. It should have spot metering and auto focus. Optical Zoom would be a big plus.
* Multiple platforms. Hey, the Mac now represents 15% of the consumer market. Maybe even more. Why are you immediately dropping that big a chunk of the market? Heck, the songs in iTunes aren't DRMd any more, and there's an API for perusing the catalog, so you don't even have to pull a Palm Pre. Show that you're willing to compete against Apple's home turf. And, don't leave Linux out.
* Work out a deal w/ Sprint a la Kindle for networking. Not necessarily a phone service, but use the Sprint network for your network. And, of course, WiFi.
All of this would have made the Zune something to consider despite having sand kicked into its face and its lunch money taken for the last few years. Now, it's just an also ran iPod look alike. If I want an iPod look alike, I might as well by the real thing.
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You're right. Any mention of a product released by the most successful software company in history is _totally_ astroturfing.
Quick, what irrelevent sub .05% market share Linux release just got published?
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potentially dying platform.
When exactly was this patient alive, doctor?
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Yeah, Apple's version totally ruined the iPhone, what were they thinking.
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Yeah, Apple's version totally ruined the iPhone, what were they thinking.
Apple *also* didn't come out with an app store right away, to make sure everything was perfect. This article also fails to mention that they intend to have one when the time is right. For apple that was an entire year.
-Taylor
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Zune is not on the Windows mobile store because the Zune project leader doesn't know how to get in contact with the WinMo team. I think that came across pretty clear in TFA.
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That's right. And opening an Appstore to third parties would absolutely prevent Microsoft from bundling free awesome games, because... wait, it's on the tip of my tongue.
I wonder why they didn't change their prices (Score:4, Insightful)
uslefull (Score:3, Funny)
What happened to the day when microsoft made a million useless machines usefull again... now their just making a million useless machines
This article is really sided (Score:2, Informative)
Zune does have a 'store'. There is the Zune Marketplace, around longer than the iphone app store. You can download games to your Zune (very limited) from the Marketplace, isn't that essentially what the iPhone app store does? The Zune isn't the iPhone or the iTouch (comes close), it is a DRM heavy Microsoft portable media player with the ability to run certain apps and share things with other Zune owners. If you have the cash and easy wifi access, then you are set on the media front. The Zune isn't for the
No more squirting (Score:5, Informative)
First, Microsoft has removed the "squirting" feature, which let you send songs directly from one Zune to another. This feature was supposed to be a big selling point of the first Zune but was crippled by unreasonable rights restrictions that let you play songs only three times or within three days (whichever came first). Microsoft and content owners gradually loosened those restrictions, but the feature never made much difference--mainly because there were so few Zune users out there to exchange songs with. (The "first man with a telephone" problem.) Now it's gone
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13526_3-10352637-27.html [cnet.com]
US only, why ? (Score:5, Insightful)
You have to wonder if Microsoft really wants to sell Zunes... As an iPod user, I would welcome a stronger competition.
Please Microsoft, keep Apple at work, else they will become another lazy monopolist !
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Please Microsoft, keep Apple at work, else they will become another lazy monopolist !
Will become?
Neat, maybe I want one! Oh, fine print: (Score:4, Interesting)
*Zune HD AV Dock and an HDTV (all sold separately) are required to view video at HD resolution. Supported 720p HD video files play on the player, downscaled to fit the screen at 480 x 272 â" not HD resolution. Zune Pass subscription required; streaming via wi-fi available in U.S. only. HD Radioâ is a proprietary trademark of iBiquity Digital Corp. Learn more about HD Radio here.
So does that mean I need a "zune pass" to play video on my zune? What the hell is a zune pass [zune.net] anyway? Ok, so I look it up, but now why do I need it again?
what the press still isn't saying... (Score:3, Interesting)
...is how this time, M$ decided to leave behind their prior Zune models with any new features in the update. Discontinuing them should have been the sign. As a 18-month owner of a Zune80, I'm seriously disappointed. The only new features we legacy Zune (18months is legacy now?) users get are for the desktop app, which personally I only use to manage my device, and nothing more. Since I have it running on a Windows Media Center PC, why do I need yet another app that does pretty much the same thing, especially from the same vendor. Even more, in a time of recession, where I don't want to drop another couple hundred for a replacement device that's hardly showing its age or need for replacement, why would I possibly want to replace it?
If you read the Zune forums, its full of device feature requests for simple things...unicode support, crossfade, better playlist management, better integration with Windows apps (there is currently none for WMP or WMC). All of these pretty much since Gen-1 of the device, and all have been disregarded since the Zune marketing team felt it necessary to take this route instead.
Its simply a sad example of greed overtaking common sense at the expense of a bit more hard work. A philosophical example of modern capitalism and American excess too?
Anyone wanna buy a Gen-2 Zune80 is Good condition? I'll use the $ to buy a MiniSD for my cellphone to consolidate my gadgets instead.
They might be pacing themselves... (Score:2)
Obviously we're moving more and more towards convergence devices which will handle many or all of the mobile technology needs of people. But we're not at that point fully yet.
Knowing this establishing yourself as a solid contender in one venue (music/media playback) isn't a bad thing. Then put together future offerings once others have dangled around in the market and figured out what people really do and don't want.
I could see MS coming out with a version of Windows Mobile that is a "everything under one
Must be a new definition of "unique" (Score:3, Interesting)
It will come with some unique features, though, like an HD radio tuner
Does "unique" mean "just like the iPod Nano"?
(The Nano's ability to show artist and song names, and its "iTunes Tagging" features, shared with some FM radio iPod docks, also use HD radio. Apple just doesn't, for whatever reason, put "HD radio" in giant flaming letters in its advertising.)
HD radio isn't FM (Score:3, Informative)
Its confusing, but HD radio is secondary radio streams (low bit rate I'm told), that is broadcast by existing radio stations. Its confusing because it sounds like High Def, or High Definition (The zune supposedly does 720p).
Not many people have the radios (I don't) so people are confused. They're trying to get them into cars. Its fm's answer to satellite radio.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Radio [wikipedia.org]
There aren't many people who aren't MS fans who think a slab /multi touch / one button PMP isn't just another
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I thought that HD Radio implied access to extra stations, in much the same way that digital OTA TV gives you subchannels. My car radio gives me station/song info, but it's not an HD Radio & I can't listen to multiple broadcasts per station.
This release seems... apologetic? (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't know how else to put it. It seems like Microsoft is coming straight out the gate on the apologetic. What sort of impression is this going to send to people considering investing in the platform? They haven't expressed any clear strategy for a possible addition of Windows Mobile apps in the future, which seems equally stupid.
Do what Apple does- sometimes you just have to lie to make yourself sound impressive!
Let's take a lesson from Apple here: they've been pawning off old technology in Mac OS X as i
yawn... (Score:2)
Fix the existing one first.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Confidence builder (Score:3, Funny)
Wow. If you want to get people to buy your product, nothing could exude less confidence than,
"Those capabilities will determine whether [...] Microsoft decides to keep selling its own music player."
Wow! Where can I buy a $100+ tech gadget that the manufacturer may wash its hands of real soon? I must have one!
Re:HD radio (Score:5, Informative)
It's ironic that the "HD" in "HD radio" stands for high definition, when current digital, especially with lossy comression, has a LOWER definition than the old analog vinyl did.
A few things:
1) It's a good thing the HD in HD Radio doesn't stand for "High Definition" then. It's "Hybrid Digital".
2) HD Radio is higher fidelity than FM, and that's what it's being compared to. ("Definition" doesn't really work with audio, anyway)
3) Vinyl may have a higher theoretical accuracy, but CDs have a far lower noise floor, which in practice makes them far more accurate.
I guess that's why they changed it from "High Fidelity" to "High Definition, because at today's low sampling rates and especially lossy compression, the fidelity just isn't there.
Again, they didn't change it. And at the recording studio, they're using higher sampling rates and less compression than ever. The fact that the music you buy from iTunes is more compressed (And the fact that CDs in the "Loudness War" are clipped) is irrelevant.
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2) HD Radio is higher fidelity than FM, and that's what it's being compared to. ("Definition" doesn't really work with audio, anyway)
Partially True. A station has a set amount of data it can transfer. If a station splits its signal over too many channels (like High-Def's sub-channels), you can get down to a quality that is indeed worse than FM.
Re:HD radio (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah. All those pops and scratches and distortion really make you believe being in a live performance.
Anyway, there are only a bunch of artists who sound good live making your rambling a moot point.
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Out of the sleeve there are no pops or scratches, and if you take care of them (keep your fingers off, don't drop them and keep them in the sleeve) they'll be very minimal. When an LP is scratched (or dirty) to the point where you'd notice at all, a CD wouldn't even play.
And I wasn't just referring to recorded live performances, which ironically seldom sounded live but sounded like a recording of a live performance because you get the acoustic effects of the hall plus the acoustic affects of your living roo
HD radio sounds poor (Score:2)
It has poor quality and the user experience when the signal fades is awful.
But you are completely insane about the vinyl thing. It's in your head.
Re:HD radio (Score:5, Informative)
HD Radio stands for Hybrid-Definition [wikipedia.org]. It's misleading marketing bullshit.
The guy who initially demoed Zune couple of months ago was scrolling the list of songs on the device and said (in reference to a 480-by-272 display) "Look at the gorgeous screen. You can really see the HD." I don't think people at Microsoft really understand the meaning of High Definition or lying through their teeth in their marketing materials.
Re:HD radio (Score:4, Insightful)
Have you ever heard a CD that you would confuse with a live performance?
No. Thankfully I can play at less than ~100dBA.
I have heard LPs played on high end equipment that you would confuse with a live performance.
No, I would not. It does not have the ambience of a stadium and the feeling of over 1000 people around me.
I am so sick and tired of "LP is analog therefore better" bullshit that I strongly recommend you to calculate LP's channel capacity (according to Shannon's nice theorem). You will be surprised how much you have to fiddle with the numbers before you get higher than 1.4Mbit/s (stereo).
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HD stand for HIGH DISTORTION
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Lets not also forget that HD is not a widely used system. Its closed source and only used in North America. In Europe DAB is the standard, so good luck using or selling the zune outside the states.
Re:HD radio (Score:5, Informative)
You make entierly untrue assumptions about HD radio, and unfair comparisons.
HD radio requires a fraction of the power of analog.
HD radio requires a fraction of the bandwidth of analog.
HD radio survives with 0% distortion over the majority of its receivable range.
HD radio is capable of CD-quality sound.
HD radio is capable of >2-channel encoding.
Similarly, your LP-vs-CD, while bordering on religious, is unfounded. Though LPs have a higher top frequency than standard CDs on their first play, both are well above human hearing.
The long-and-short is that the quality of playback on high-end equipment, when considered in light of the human ear, will be far more dependant on the mastering than on CD-vs-LP. And at that level we are usually discussing SACD and DVD-A... welcome to the 21st century.
And yes, I've heard CDs sound like live; and I've heard a number of SACDs that do. I suspect that you havent either because of a disparity in the mastering, a disparity in the playback equipment, or listener bias.
Re:HD radio (Score:5, Informative)
From the HD Digital Radio FAQ [hdradio.com]
Q : WHAT DOES THE HD IN HD RADIO MEAN?
A: The 'HD' in 'HD Radio' is part of iBiquity Digital's brand name for its digital AM and FM radio technology. It does not mean either hybrid digital or high definition, it is simply the branding language for this new technology.
They are simply riding the wave of video High Definition hype nothing more.
Re:HD radio (Score:5, Interesting)
Have you ever heard a CD that you would confuse with a live performance?
Are you *really* serious? I don't buy that at all. You must not have had a very good CD player or summin. I have a *large* collection of LP's, 45's, and CD's, and most of my library I listen to is on my iPod now. I've spent enormous amounts of time comparing the AAC version of what I've recorded to the original. Can't tell a difference.
What I have found is that CD's tend to unmask the weakness of the original recording, making it a little less pleasurable to listen to. An extreme example is Journey "Lovin' Touchin' Squeezin". If you listen to it on a cheap radio over FM it's not too bad. Listen to it on LP it sounds better. Listen to it on a CD with high-end equipment (I have Mackie studio monitors) and it sounds absolutely friggin horrible. It's not the mastering of the CD or the quality of the A/D conversion, it's the original recording. Now go and listen to James Taylor "Everyday" - the remastered version - downloaded from iTunes. That's probably some of the best quality audio you'll ever hear.
Oh, and IAASE (I am a studio engineer)
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Have you ever heard a CD that you would confuse with a live performance? Me either.
In fairness, that is more a fault of the way most CD's are mastered today, rather than an inherent problem with the CD format. It is possible to produce CDs with a decent amount of dynamic range that do have the "feel" or dynamics of a live performance.
It's too bad that none of the 24-bit music formats have really caught on. That increased bit depth gives even more opportunity to incorporate real dynamics. With a CD (16-bit) you only have 65,535 possible amplitude levels. With a 24-bit format you get 16
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Have you ever heard a CD that you would confuse with a live performance? Me either. I have heard LPs played on high end equipment that you would confuse with a live performance.
Maybe you need to buy one of these Intelligent Chips? [archive.org]
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The HD in "HD Radio" doesn't stand for high definition. It's a bs market confusing effort to push proprietary digital radio broadcasting, and it's US only. That's also why the Zune HD isn't being sold overseas, because it doesn't work with open digital radio in Europe.
From OLED to Tegra: Five Myths of the Zune HD [roughlydrafted.com]
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Heh...it's been proven that the PVC polymer chains that comprise LPs don't offer as much resolution, even on the molecular level, as 44.1 KHz sampled audio.
Back in the early seventies they introduced a recording technology called "quadrophonic" -- four channel sound. How they did they ger four channels out of a single groove? Well, monophonic records' up and down motion of the stylus was used for the signal. When stereo was introduced, they wanted them to be backward compatible, so the up and down motion en
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Be careful reading Daniel Eran Dilger's writings and assuming that they are accurate and unbiased, that's dangerous.
Sheldon
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The funniest part is the headline he chose: "Microsoft launches Zune, clarifies what's up with apps"
Q: Will it open up for third-party app developers?
A: It's hard to say right now.
That's clarification?!?!?
And this absolutely KILLS me:
Q: Are you concerned about competing with new iPods with cameras built in?
A: The more things like that that make their way into these devices that aren't about great music and video playback, the more it's distracting or sacrificing that original purpose of the device. Apps are jamming in, cameras -- that's work that's not being done on the music front.
With this release, you can see we're still really focused on music and video. We're still hyper-focused on that. Maybe that's the benefit of being the little guy. We can have that laser-focus.
Maybe some of those people ... did buy an iPod because it's all about music, and now it's not. Maybe we can get some of those folks.
I have never listened to music on my iPhone and thought "Boy, I could really be enjoying this if I weren't constantly distracted by the fact that there's a camera ON THE BACK, and a calculator button on the home screen that I CAN NOT SEE RIGHT NOW."
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I have never listened to music on my iPhone and thought "Boy, I could really be enjoying this if I weren't constantly distracted by the fact that there's a camera ON THE BACK, and a calculator button on the home screen that I CAN NOT SEE RIGHT NOW."
I know what you are saying, but I feel the same way about unneeded features. For example if there were no tuner on the new Nano, that's more material dollars, internal volume, and software guys that can be turned loose on another part of the unit and make that part even better.
I love all the features until they include a feature I don't want, then I bitch and moan that they should have used that volume and money to add more battery.
It's a scalpel vs. swiss army knife argument. Since I only carry one thing
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Be careful reading anyone's writings and assuming that they are accurate and unbiased, because nobody is unbiased or always accurate.
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That's true, but what if they already have tried enticing 3rd party developers with a sales pitch for some kind of store and got so little interest they decided to can the whole thing?
The reason I bring this up is that, as a mac/linux guy, I had an interesting experience this morning: I had to burn a disc image using windows vista. I discovered to my dismay that Vista doesn't contain thi
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Please read the gave a response [nwsource.com] link.
No amount of astroturf can cure the ridiculousification of messages in TFA.