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The Military News

$26 of Software Defeats American Military 534

reporter writes "A computer program that can be easily purchased for $25.95 off the Internet can read and store the data transmitted on an unsecured channel by an unmanned drone. Drones are crucial to American military operations, for these aerial vehicles enable Washington to conduct war with a reduced number of soldiers. '... the intercepts could give America's enemies battlefield advantages by removing the element of surprise from certain missions and making it easier for insurgents to determine which roads and buildings are under US surveillance.'"
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$26 of Software Defeats American Military

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  • $26 is a lot (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gurps_npc ( 621217 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @09:56AM (#30472672) Homepage
    How much is a bullet to the brain of the General commanding the war? But you need a trained sniper and an awfully good insertion to get that bullet there.

    Counting the cheapest part of the machine is silly.

    Software is often free. $26 is a lot for software. The radio reception, etc. and knowing where to aim are all much more expensive and require skill.

  • by mysidia ( 191772 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @09:56AM (#30472674)

    Defeating them would be gaining control of the drones (a really scary proposition)

    This seems to be an information leak.. something that ought to be fixable by using some sort of encryption.

    Or even by making slight changes to the stream format, since SkyGrabber seems to just be off-the-shelf software.

  • by SirGarlon ( 845873 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @09:58AM (#30472698)
    They're flying missions halfway around the world and not even bothering to encrypt the video stream. I can understand that in the rush to get drones in the field they might have had to cut a few corners on the system design -- but for crying out loud they've had 8 years to patch this hole. *Sigh* Your tax dollars at work.
  • by brusk ( 135896 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @09:58AM (#30472702)
    No, demodulating a signal is not news. But not encrypting it in the first place ought to be. (And TFA had a red herring in its focus on the software used to record the signal--the software is probably the easy part, once you've captured the signal).
  • Anonymous Coward (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 17, 2009 @10:05AM (#30472762)

    Perhaps the smart play would be to quietly encrypt actual data, while continuing to broadcast placebo or manipulated data in the clear.

  • Re:Oh noes (Score:5, Insightful)

    by fuzzyfuzzyfungus ( 1223518 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @10:06AM (#30472766) Journal
    I'm frankly more worried about "But the Pentagon assumed local adversaries wouldn't know how to exploit it, the officials said." than I am about this particular security vulnerability.

    Security vulnerabilities happen, and are unfortunate and need to be fixed, and we really should spend more time and resources on caring about them; but that is all manageable software/systems engineering stuff.

    Making important decisions on the basis of "Eh, our enemies are just ignorant mud farmers anyway, no problem", on the other hand, is colossally arrogant and extremely dangerous. Particularly, since the US currently has the world's highest tech and most expensive military, "Eh, they're just primitives, no problem" is a practically all-purpose dismissal of virtually any problem that you are too lazy to fix. That is a recipe for learning, the hard way, about every new asymmetric warfare trick.
  • Re:Sh..... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by gplus ( 985592 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @10:08AM (#30472790)
    Why are the military so goddam stupid? They have been transmitting video unencrypted ever since the Bosnia conflict. And apperantly they're still happily going on making same mistake as Joe Sixpack, setting up his new home wireless router.

    Don't they understand that even the weakest simplest encryption, is 1000 times better than none at all?
  • by a_nonamiss ( 743253 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @10:10AM (#30472806)
    why didn't the DoD just start passing a fake feed from the drone? They could have added another encrypted channel for the real feed, which I would assume is trivial given the military's budget. Then pass fake data over the unencrypted channel. Sometimes disinformation to the enemy is far more valuable than real intelligence. I can see a bunch of jihadis sitting around watching a tv screen. "Look at those infidels. They are going to blow up the wrong building! Our secret base is 100 kilometers away! Say, does anyone else hear that noi..." [BOOM]
  • Hubris (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mruizcamauer ( 551400 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @10:11AM (#30472814) Homepage
    "U.S. military personnel in Iraq discovered the problem late last year when they apprehended a Shiite militant whose laptop contained files of intercepted drone video feeds. In July, the U.S. military found pirated drone video feeds on other militant laptops, leading some officials to conclude that militant groups trained and funded by Iran were regularly intercepting feeds." The Germans did not think the Poles could break their codes. The Japanese did not think the US and the Australians would break their codes. The British did not think Argentina would finish assembling the Exocets on their own without the French manuals or use them in a way differently than designed. The Afghan and Iraqi insurgents have the money and the brains to break into Western weapon systems, don't underestimate them (or the probable help from Iran, Syria, Korea, etc...) The prospect of getting killed is a powerful motivator.
  • Re:Sh..... (Score:1, Insightful)

    by elrous0 ( 869638 ) * on Thursday December 17, 2009 @10:13AM (#30472830)

    Why are the military so goddam stupid?

    Not to be harsh about it, but think back to high school and college and ask yourself if you would describe the people who were planning military careers as the "best and brightest" of your class.

  • Re:Sh..... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by thetoadwarrior ( 1268702 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @10:17AM (#30472872) Homepage
    Yeah because being a computer engineering in the military is some how infinitely easier than in the private sector which allows the stupid kids to do it after school. They let just anyone fly jets too.
  • by Fieryphoenix ( 1161565 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @10:26AM (#30472964)
    From what I could make out, it's just the video stream transmitted by the drone that's unencrypted, not communications that control the drone. The obvious reason this might be done is to save on the computational requirements onboard the drone by not making it encrypt the presumably immense data stream of the video. Decrypting the rest of the communication the drone receives is probably an order of magnitude less processing load, or even two.

    If received and understood by the enemy in a timely manner, very useful information. But if it is just the image unencrypted and not GPS coordinates, etc, the enemy would have to have enough people watching the feeds to recognize the terrain that was being photographed... it's easy to see why this might not be considered likely and lead to the poor judgement to leave it unencrypted when the drones were designed, many years ago with less powerful processors available.
  • by sycodon ( 149926 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @10:29AM (#30472994)

    If they can prevent me from watching porn on cable and satellite, they should be able to prevent these guys from hijacking the video feeds from the UAVs.

  • by circletimessquare ( 444983 ) <(circletimessquare) (at) (gmail.com)> on Thursday December 17, 2009 @10:33AM (#30473052) Homepage Journal

    furthermore, there's nothing to say they still can't do that, or aren't actually doing that already. in fact, a big story in the international press about how dumb the military is on these video feeds is a good cover. one can hope, anyways, that the military is smarter than depicted in this story

  • by HateBreeder ( 656491 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @10:41AM (#30473164)

    Sensationalist... i would expect this from a tabloid.

    Title should have been: Unencrypted data broadcasted everywhere ... can be received by anyone!

    The leap from that to "$26 of Software Defeats American Military" is quite a big leap in my opinion.

  • Re:Sh..... (Score:0, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 17, 2009 @10:43AM (#30473186)

    Don't tell the DoD. They've been paying $170,000 per license for that software.

    There. Fixed that for you.

  • Re:Sh..... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 17, 2009 @10:43AM (#30473188)
    This is just my experience but I met some computer engineers with top secret clearance working at the DoD. They are so incompetent that it's scary. Even worse, they were contractors/consultants. I'm not saying all DoD computer engineers are idiots. The problem is the government is so incompetent that they've given much of the work to large consulting companies whose sole purpose is to fill as many seats as possible for the revenue.
  • by Registered Coward v2 ( 447531 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @10:53AM (#30473314)

    Unfortunately there are plenty of assholes out there who will exaggerate anything in order to claim that they are more security conscious than the next person (and perhaps hope to get a contract for their company). But this is surely small war, no-one dead, move along please.

    And those same people don't know (or remember) the first rule of intelligence:

    Those who know, don't talk. Those who talk, don't know.

  • Gung ho (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sjbe ( 173966 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @10:55AM (#30473334)

    Not to be harsh about it, but think back to high school and college and ask yourself if you would describe the people who were planning military careers as the "best and brightest" of your class.

    Ahh, you are thinking of the one or two guys who were all gung ho but not especially bright and had delusions about being a badass commando. Yeah, my school had some too. See the thing is though that those guys aren't the guys running the military. The guys you are thinking of end up as infantry grunts or something similar and exit the service after a few years. I have a cousin who is one of those guys. Smart but classic ADHD and socially stunted and not someone I'd trust right now to be in charge of anything. But he served two tours in Iraq and now he's in college so I have hope for him.

    The guys in the officer corps (commissioned and higher level NCO) are almost invariably bright and hard working and most of them that I've ever met didn't talk much about their interest in the military. I have a classmate who is a major in the US Navy who never gave the slightest hint he was interested in a military career. He was quiet, very smart, and I would have guessed he'd be an engineer but instead he's become a heck of a good officer. I have a number of friends who were graduates of West Point and Annapolis and I've been impressed as hell by each one of them. Smart, incredibly disciplined, and I'd hire any one of them in a heartbeat.

    The US military is an incredibly complicated and large organization with huge budgets, difficult goals, and a huge workforce. If you think managing all that is easy and doesn't require tremendous skill, you are delusional. Sure they make mistakes just like any other large organization but their mission is also more complicated than most and if they fail, people die.

  • Re:Sh..... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by gestalt_n_pepper ( 991155 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @11:01AM (#30473408)

    Which is the problem with military outsourcing in general. The goal is "make a profit" instead of "protect the country."

    Halliburton is not in the defense business to defend. They're in the defense business to make money.

  • by lorenlal ( 164133 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @11:01AM (#30473412)

    Mods. That comment may be redundant, it may be old and tired, but it is certainly not offtopic. In fact, in the grand scheme of frist psots!, it might be the most on-topic one I've seen in years.

  • Re:Sh..... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kalirion ( 728907 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @11:03AM (#30473436)

    I think this has about as much to do with Army IT as IE vulnerabilities have to do with the Microsoft IT department.

  • Yawn (Score:3, Insightful)

    by mea37 ( 1201159 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @11:05AM (#30473458)

    $26 software defeats American military? OMG, we've been beaten?

    Oh, wait... you're just saying that insurgents have a tactical advantage in some missions because they've exploited a security vulnerability using $26 software. So maybe $26 software used as weapon aganist US military?

    Ah... but the military discovered the problem in the field, and is working to plug the security hole. $26 software annoys American military temporarily.

  • by OzPeter ( 195038 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @11:10AM (#30473536)

    Is there any real security risk in this? I suspect it is very small.

    The risk to this is not a danger to troops. The risk of this is having a completely un-edited video source available to people who would have a field day if the official US proclamation of what happened was visibly different from the recorded video stream

  • Re:$26 is a lot (Score:2, Insightful)

    by c6gunner ( 950153 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @11:22AM (#30473740) Homepage

    Tend to agree, especially since current strategy is to only pick fights with opponents one step above the stone age, then bomb them right back into it.

    If you're referring to Afghanistan, the US didn't pick that fight. If you're referring to Iraq, they are/were quite a few steps out of the stone age.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 17, 2009 @11:27AM (#30473814)
    Yes, and some linux geek on slashdot has *all* the information and has studied the situation more than the folks who do it for a living. Right. Go back to your room, kid, and watch more movies.
  • by MrMickS ( 568778 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @11:30AM (#30473864) Homepage Journal

    Must be good to live in a world where all life's problems can be solved by OSS software. Sadly, life just isn't that simple.

  • by decsnake ( 6658 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @11:40AM (#30474042)

    As an engineer in the defense industry you probably also know how long defense systems live and how hard it can be to get upgrades pushed out into the field. It wouldn't surprise me at all if it wasn't technically feasible to encrypt the video stream at the time this system was first deployed and since then upgrading it has never been a priority for anyone with enough clout to make it happen. Now that its on SecDef's radar how long do you think its gonna take before this gets fixed?

  • by mdarksbane ( 587589 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @11:44AM (#30474098)

    And of course these drones have been operating for years, and have to withstand conditions well beyond what any off the shelf parts are rated for. Doing good crypto in a small package wasn't quite as easy twenty years ago when these were in development.

  • Re:Hubris (Score:3, Insightful)

    by querist ( 97166 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @11:49AM (#30474180) Homepage
    Never underestimate your opponent. Anyone who forgets that rule is doomed to failure. The safe rule is always to assume that your opponent is AT LEAST as well trained and capable as you are. You may be able to make intelligent suppositions regarding supplies and equipment, but never underestimate training, intelligence, and skill.
  • by Xtravar ( 725372 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @12:02PM (#30474352) Homepage Journal

    Maybe they're purposefully sending incorrect video feeds unencrypted, and this story has been disseminated to lull the enemy into a false sense of security.

  • Re:$26 is a lot (Score:4, Insightful)

    by c6gunner ( 950153 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @12:09PM (#30474450) Homepage

    Yes, it did. Not that the Taliban didn't have it coming, but the USA was still the attacker.

    If your friend shoots one of my family members and then goes and hides in your house, I'm not picking a fight with you when I come to drag him out. If you decide to get in my way, that's your problem.

    The pathetic thing here is that Taliban, Al-Qaida and bin Laden are all still alive and at large, so it could be argued that the US actually lost, failing to meet its goals for the invasion.

    By the same logic, Germany and Japan still exist today so I guess the US lost in WW2, also. Good thinking!

    They do seem to be quite primitive, actually, considering how quickly their defense collapsed, and how few casualties the attacker suffered.

    Frankly, the US could probably roll over the Canadian military tomorrow, just as quickly, while suffering not many more casualties. I guess Canada is primitive too, huh?

    You're confusing American dominance for Iraqi incompetence, and then assessing their entire nation based on your misunderstanding. That's just silly.

  • by QuoteMstr ( 55051 ) <dan.colascione@gmail.com> on Thursday December 17, 2009 @12:26PM (#30474652)

    series of one-time-pads

    ...

    It can be repeating

    You are a dangerous fool. Never use a one-time pad more than once, even for "light" security. Doing that turns the whole thing into a Vigenère cipher [wikipedia.org] and destroys all security. You might as well just XOR each byte of the message with 0x42.

  • Re:Sh..... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by 5KVGhost ( 208137 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @12:28PM (#30474696)

    "Halliburton is not in the defense business to defend. They're in the defense business to make money"

    What?! You mean to tell me that Halliburton, Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, and General Electric are not staffed by monks who've taken a vow of poverty?

    People who aren't in business to make money seldom manage to stay in business long enough to do anything at all. And I'd much rather contractors operate at a profit than be perpetual budgetary basket-cases like NASA.

  • Re:Sh..... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by HaZardman27 ( 1521119 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @12:32PM (#30474766)
    I truly hope this is sarcastic, because the ignorance of this statement baffles me. To say the military is comprised only of self-serving individuals who seek some sort of sick pleasure from killing people is offensive to everyone who served or is currently serving. Military members don't get free food, clothes, or housing more than anyone else with a job does. There are allowances for these necessities that are simply an extension to a member's base pay, which for enlisted members would be terribly low otherwise. If you worked a minimum wage job for the same number of hours per week as an average military member, you would probably make more money than their monthly base pay.
  • Re:$26 is a lot (Score:5, Insightful)

    by IgnoramusMaximus ( 692000 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @12:42PM (#30474906)

    If your friend shoots one of my family members and then goes and hides in your house, I'm not picking a fight with you when I come to drag him out. If you decide to get in my way, that's your problem.

    Well, its a fine demagoguery you got there, but the actual reality was that the Taliban demanded to see evidence of Bin Laden's responsibility before handing him over (remember that Bin Laden is just a "spiritual leader" - read: "pontificating bore that talks hell of a lot but hasn't actually done much directly" as opposed to other, more hands-on operatives who worked out of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and, in the case of the 9/11 crew, Germany) and the USA flatly refused. Following which the USA invaded declaring any and all comers as "unlawful combatants" with no rights of any kind.

    So to keep your analogy straight, you have a case of my friend showing up at my house saying that you are gunning for him, following which you show up with a box of explosives and demand that I hand him over or else "because he did me wrong!". And when I say "hold on for a sec, what proof exactly do you have?" you say "I don't have to explain myself to a non-human like you, far beneath my superior Manifest Destiny self! What I say goes or else! You got 10 minutes to comply!" and then set the bomb off 5 minutes later, killing my wife and maiming my kids, following which you get the biker gang down the street to help you rummage through and "govern" the wreckage. And so now you have two mortal enemies instead of one and not exactly what could be called a "moral high ground".

    This is how the Afghanistan mis-adventure is seen by "the other side" and it is of little wonder that the fight will likely go on indefinitely, Taliban having quite a bit (and growing by many accounts) of local support and very able to present itself as the victims of a belligerent, arrogant, foreign, religiously-motivated, supremacist aggressor, victims who will defend their ancestral homeland, their religion and their "way of life" against that aggressor to the bitter end.

    I'd say the odds of "victory" in Afghanistan for the USA are pretty much on the same level as those of all the previous Empires ... not entirely zero but any Vegas slot machine looks like a guaranteed retirement plan by comparison.

  • by acklenx ( 646834 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @12:49PM (#30475032) Homepage
    Just to be clear

    frequency hopping != encryption

    especially if you are the only transmitter in that spectrum nearby.

  • Re:Sh..... (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 17, 2009 @01:12PM (#30475342)

    As long as you understand thats a generalization and not the rule. Most of the smaller private companies are quite good at what they do and deliver an excellent product.

  • by ImprovOmega ( 744717 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @01:27PM (#30475546)
    Well, bear in mind that it's probably sending the video signal compressed in the first place, and compression is just as prone to catastrophic errors as encryption is. It's encoded either way. As others in this thread have mentioned, you just do some error correction and carry on. Encapsulate the encrypted payload with some kind of error handling stream.
  • by Mr 44 ( 180750 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @01:40PM (#30475728)

    The risk to this is not a danger to troops. The risk of this is having a completely un-edited video source available to people who would have a field day if the official US proclamation of what happened was visibly different from the recorded video strea

    Awesome point! And of course, since they've had access to these feeds for over a year, can we then assume that there hasn't been an incident where showing the footage would have disproved the US version of events?

    Of course, they would be hestitant to tip thier hand that they've got access to the footage, but if they really caught us in a lie, don't you think they'd show it?

  • Re:$26 is a lot (Score:5, Insightful)

    by IgnoramusMaximus ( 692000 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @01:55PM (#30475942)

    Your first mistake is assuming that operations against Al Qaeda in Afghanistan started in 2001. The rest of your argument is rendered moot by that mistake. The US has been operating in Afghanistan since the 90's, as a response to earlier Al Qaeda attacks. The 2001 invasion was just the final commitment in a much longer campaign.

    Oh I see, so in addition to being the chief sugar-daddy and arms supplier to Al Qaeda throughout 1980s, the USA then proceeded to meddle directly and covertly in Afghanistan as soon as their "allies" won and the USSR withdrew, showing itself utterly duplicitous and untrustworthy to the locals ... and this is improving your case how exactly?

    That, of course, hinges on how you define "victory". If all we care about is maintaining majority control over the country and preventing it from being used as a staging area for further attacks against the west, then we've already won.

    By that token the Nazis "won" WWII in 1942 ... I mean they occupied and held a lot of territory at the time, "preventing it from being used as a staging area by the Allies", no?

    Under any other reasonable definition we ... we haven't achieved all of the goals we've set for ourselves, but the odds of eventually meeting them are pretty much 100%.

    Yes, the time-honoured way of getting your ass handed to you: "fail to declare coherent, logical and testable goals, bloviate endlessly about 'progress' and 'democracy' and whatever other abstract and nebulous feel-good concept you can come up with, declare 'victory' and skedaddle home holding your bruised posterior, having met 'your goals' 110%! - whatever those 'goals' morphed into in the end in order to be met 110%". You did not seriously think you are the first would-be conqueror to come up with this?

    The opposite forces have no chance of achieving a military victory - the best that they can hope for is that we get bored and go home.

    You have an interesting way of defining "boredom", apparently measured in trillions of dollars, thousands of wounded, dead and maimed on your side and many more on theirs...

    And yes, all the defenders have to do is to do what they always have done ... to outlast the latest Empire until it crawls back whence it came from. They have an ample precedent for that, although you are of course the Super-extra-specially-exceptional Empire, the American One, so everything will be oh-so-super-specially-extra-exceptionally different for you, despite no substantial changes in the general conditions of the whole affair. Just because America is oh-so-Speeeecial!

    As long as we're willing to stay, we can't lose

    Which is pretty much a guaranteed loss for the USA as the "will to stay" (translated to real-life measurements of mayhem and treasury) is far, far, lower than "their" will to outlast you - they are after all fighting for their homes, their "way of life" (as they see it) and their religion (and "zealot" is too kind a word to describe most of them) - and all that on top of their vastly disproportionately lower cost of warfare!

    Unfortunately, it seems likely that we will decide to leave, largely due to opinions such as yours.

    No, you will leave because that is the only thing you can do. The alternative is "total war" and utter bankruptcy of the US Empire. None of the previous empires left because of nay-sayers either, they left because staying further meant Imperial Collapse (and some, like the USSR, waited a tad too long). No amount of Rah-Rah cheer leading will change basic realities of Afghanistan and the logistics of foreign conquests.

    I find that truly depressing. Seems like people didn't learn a damn thing from the American mistakes in the 80's.

  • by TubeSteak ( 669689 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @01:57PM (#30475958) Journal

    Must be good to live in a world where all life's problems can be solved by OSS software. Sadly, life just isn't that simple.

    They didn't have to use OSS.
    How about using established standards?
    Then the Army can drop in some off the shelf fix instead of having
    to pay their sole vendor to custom code/design new software/hardware.

  • Re:$26 is a lot (Score:4, Insightful)

    by IgnoramusMaximus ( 692000 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @02:37PM (#30476568)

    Seeing as how your very first sentence is a complete lie, I see no reason to wade through the rest of your comment. If you're honestly mistaken instead of intentionally deceitful, I suggest you do a bit of research and then come back here and post an apology and a detailed explanation of why you were wrong. Under those circumstances I would be willing to continue our discussion.

    Now this is a classic case of Projection! Accuse your opponent of the very thing you are doing and then try to escape pretending that somehow defending your lies is beneath your oh-so-high-moral-standards!

    Speaking of detailed explanations [wikipedia.org] however... oh but you probably meant this whiny quote form the US government "The United States wanted to be able to deny that the CIA was funding the Afghan war, so its support was funneled through Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence agency (ISI). ISI in turn made the decisions about which Afghan factions to arm and train, tending to favor the most Islamist and pro-Pakistan. The Afghan Arabs generally fought alongside those factions, which is how the charge arose that they were creatures of the CIA." - oh so everything is now so wonderfully clear! You did not hand the brown envelopes directly to Bin Laden, you had a middle man! Therefore you soooo absolutely absolved of any culpability, yes Siree! After all if one hires a middle-man, one is automatically innocent of anything that middle-man might have done in one's name ... unless of course you are not an American! Then all the rules change, naturally.

  • Re:Sh..... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by NiteShaed ( 315799 ) on Thursday December 17, 2009 @03:14PM (#30477200)

    One lie, persistent on all battlefields in the history of humanity is: We're the good guys!

    Silly concentration-camp prisoners during WW2, falling for that lie and thinking the Allied forces were the good guys. Man, what a bunch of rubes, when clearly, according to you, they were no different than the Wehrmacht.
    Or did you really mean some battlefields, or "the occasional battlefield"?

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