Space Shuttle Spy Gets 15 Years 402
goG writes "A Chinese-born engineer was sentenced Monday to more than 15 years in prison for hoarding sensitive information about the US space shuttle with the intent of giving it to China. US District Judge Cormac Carney called Chung's crimes a matter of national security, saying he had committed a breach against the trust Boeing and the country had placed in him. Attorney Greg Staples said, 'The [People's Republic of China] is bent on stealing sensitive information from the United States and shows no sign of relenting. Only strong sentences offer any hope of dissuading others from helping the PRC get that technology.' Staples also 'noted in sentencing papers that Chung amassed a personal wealth of more than $3 million US while betraying his adopted country.'"
I've been saying it for years... (Score:1, Insightful)
15 years? (Score:5, Insightful)
He got away with it. (Score:5, Insightful)
He's 74 years old, he'll never see the end of this sentence. He lived what appears to be a good life living in the country he was betraying (about 3M worth of good life from TFA). His nursing home arrangements are less than desirable but he'll still have better care than many seniors in this country.
Re:If only... (Score:3, Insightful)
The booster rockets are still pretty valuable technology regardless of the payload they are attached to.
Re:15 years? (Score:2, Insightful)
Send him to Gitmo, then death penalty. No New York trials. He's a spy, stealing information that can be used against us. When are we going to acknowledge that we are at (cyber) war with China, have been for years, and start acting accordingly?
Sad thing is that you're modded funny, when you should be insightful. If China caught an American spy, they would execute him after quick trial.
Jsut make it open (Score:4, Insightful)
In my opinion it would be a better for everyone if public-funded research bodies like NASA( and the equivalent in every other country) made their non defense-related information freely available to all anyway.
That's not strong (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:15 years? (Score:3, Insightful)
Didn't you know? We're at war with Eastasia, we've always been at war with Eastasia.
Why not the death penalty? (Score:4, Insightful)
In many countries spying results in the death penalty, why not in this case? Spying is a grevious crime against one's country and has been handled by the death penalty across countless cultures since before recorded history. For that matter, if your in a position of trust (vs just sneaking around) than it isn't spying, but treason. With a sentence of 15 years we appear to be weak, not strong from the eyes of someone who could consider the crime.
Certainly a spy that was caught by China would receive the death penalty, so nothing new there. Nothing against the Chinese (vs another nationality), but this business of pandering to foreign governments that spy against us has got to end.
Re:Jsut make it open (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Ha, he should get a medal (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:15 years? (Score:5, Insightful)
"If China caught an American spy, they would execute him after quick trial."
So PRC should be emulated?
Re:15 years? (Score:5, Insightful)
This will not stop spying (Score:4, Insightful)
Promoting their agenda using others' advances. (Score:5, Insightful)
The Chinese government wants to promote their own agenda. Let them do so using their own advances, not by stealing the advances built by cultures which actually encourage advance.
Let the culture which reveres "ancient wisdom" prove its value by using feng shui to launch their space vehicles.
Re:15 years? (Score:2, Insightful)
Instead, we imprison with cable TV and free health care. I hear our prisons are lavish compared to the standard of a normal Chinese citizen. Might not be up to the $3M lifestyle "on the outside", but still better than his ancestors.
Re:He got away with it. (Score:1, Insightful)
People like you should be denied the right to vote.
Re:He got away with it. (Score:1, Insightful)
yeah, because punishing people who had fuck-all to do with the crime is what America is all about!
Re:He got away with it. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I've been saying it for years... (Score:2, Insightful)
How on earth did this get modded Informative?!
Re:15 years? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:i'm going to get modded troll... (Score:5, Insightful)
Nevertheless, it would be interesting to see if anyone else had any thoughts or experiences in this matter. In short, in today's world, what are the real loyalties of an immigrant population?
As an immigrant myself, I can tell you that it depends on the reasons why one leaves his homeland. When it's money alone, loyalty usually doesn't change (it's not really something that can be bought for money). But when one is genuinely dissatisfied with the overall direction of his original society, it's another story.
Of my fellow Russian immigrants, I've seen both kinds. Some come here (Canada) for higher quality of life, but generally try to disassociate from the local culture, and do the same for their kids - their primary social circle is all-Russian, they force their kids to speak Russian first and foremost (even though kids readily pick English first, because they use it more in school) etc. Quite often, such people return as soon as they feel that the quality of life back home has improved enough for them; sometimes, their kids do when they grow up. I've met a few such returnees from U.S. back in Russia as well, and all were rather derisive about American culture and societal norms.
Others come here to settle down first and foremost, and they generally try to integrate, even though it's nigh impossible for the first generation (too old to re-learn everything). The parents usually still have a mostly-Russian social circle, but they try to reach out beyond it. Their kids, though, consider themselves Canadians first and foremost, and their language preferences (they know both, usually, but they prefer English) and behavioral patterns are mostly local.
In conflicts of interest such as the one described in TFA and by you, consequently, the first group would tend to align themselves with their country of origin, while the second group would support their country of residence.
Re:15 years? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:He got away with it. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why not the death penalty? (Score:5, Insightful)
That seems a bit harsh....
As I understand it, the guy was working for Boeing - which is not the same thing as working for the government. Sure, it was on an outsourced government project. But if the information really were that essential to national security, why the f--- would you outsource it?
(Or am I being somewhat naive about the "military industrial complex" bogeyman, where Boeing and the US Government become synonymous...?)
Re:15 years? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not before a trial. But come to think of it, the way some legislators (and even judges) trash the constitution, maybe they should be tried for treason as well?
Re:15 years? (Score:3, Insightful)
I tend to be anti-death penalty for various reasons (what ever happened to redemption?) however, punishment? Sure.
There is an element of hypercriticality to this...when the US runs their own spys (something which I, as a citizen, do not support, and firmly believe the CIA should have been disbanded forever after the MKULTRA affair)
In short.... Punish the spys.... ALL OF THEM. Every single one of them, no matter who they work for, is a criminal in some way.
-Steve
Re:If only... (Score:4, Insightful)
The rumour was that the US chose the shuttle instead of better alternatives, because it can steer orbits, much better than an ICBM.
ICBMs don't orbit.
Re:15 years? (Score:3, Insightful)
It would only be treason if the spy had been a US citizen. You can't commit treason against a foreign country.
TFA doesn't specify the guy's current citizenship status, only that he was says the guy was originally born in China. He's also 74 years old and in poor health. A 15 year sentence is pretty close to a death sentence at that rate.
Re:15 years? (Score:4, Insightful)
And if we all close our eyes and click our heels, we'll be back in Kansas.
Re:15 years? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sensitive? (Score:1, Insightful)
How sensitive can that technology be when we're retiring the space shuttle soon and have no replacements past the drawing board stage?
Vehicles like the Space Shuttle have one capability that no other orbital vehicle past or current possesses... a large cargo capacity with down-mass (the mass of cargo it can land with) approximately equal to up-mass (the mass of cargo it can launch with). I don't think the Chinese want an exact copy of the the Space Shuttle, but I could see reasons why they'd want technology that enables this capability. Remember, once in LEO a craft is potentially 90 minutes from anywhere on the globe*... No I'm not worried about the Chinese trying to invade the US, Canada, or Europe from orbit, but there are other places outside of South Eastern Asia they may want to project power to in the future. Furthermore, even if they decide the US went down the wrong path with our shuttle you can often learn more from detailed analysis of failures than successes.
*Oh and if you think I'm being too speculative about this, the US military is seriously interested in orbital or sub-orbital spacecraft [popsci.com] to deliver both troops and equipment anywhere on the globe quickly.
Re:Concorde vs. Concordski (Score:3, Insightful)
Ironically, Concorde's tires proved to be fatal.
Re:Ha, he should get a medal (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:If only... (Score:5, Insightful)
As far as I'm concerned, it's rocket science, and that's worth keeping a lid on. Any kind of rocket science, unless you can buy a kit in the mail or a hobby store, has pretty serious potential applications. China getting their hands on space shuttle plans doesn't mean they'll build their own shuttle, it means they take some tiny piece of it and improve some military application like a missile or airplane.
In any case, China is trying to get every scrap of technology they can get their hands on, regardless of its potential applications or obsolescence level. Some stuff may be useful immediately, others may be stepping stones to other technologies. Shuttle tech is stuff we improve on to develop new technologies. It's better, from our national security standpoint, for them to be stuck starting from scratch than from getting an idea of where our technology is headed and what we're starting with.
Re:If only... (Score:3, Insightful)
Why? they can get it from the Russians. They have had most of the details to the shuttle program for decades. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buran_program [wikipedia.org]
Honestly, I'm betting they will sell all their info to china for cheap low prices!
Re:Concorde vs. Concordski (Score:4, Insightful)
While a stray piece of titanium from a previous jetliner may have shredded the tire and caused the fuel tank to puncture, I think I could more readily argue that the fuel tank having insufficient protection is the real problem. I would prefer to have any kind of tire event keep all passengers, structural elements and fuel tanks intact. Judging from the amount of abuse subsonic jetliners have sustained over the last 40 years, and the fact that Concordes were retrofitted with better tank protection before the economy tanked and they were all grounded, I really have a hard time blaming the tires.
Re:15 years? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeeeeaaaahhhh.....
The idea that they're all criminals is kind of silly. Most spies operating abroad actually work with diplomatic immunity, gathering relatively public information and doing analysis. There are spies, working with that immunity, who go about trying to recruit assets like Mr. Chung... somebody disaffected, or somebody who has a reason to feel a stronger tie towards another country, or merely somebody who can be bought. They're the criminals, but they're a fairly small portion of the intelligence community as a whole. They're the ones who take the biggest risks, and the ones who get the biggest rewards for their work, if they do it well.
Unfortunately, we live in a world that's not all that friendly. Without spies, there'd be a lot more chaos and death in the world. Spies are the ones that allow leaders to go into a meeting with another leader and tell them "we know you're doing x, so cut it out" and lets military powers stay balanced enough that nobody gains a massive advantage and goes to war. Basically, spies allow for diplomacy to flourish, and they prevent conflicts. China is fully justified in wanting to spy on us and build up technologically and militarily in order to ensure their interests are satisfied. We're equally as justified in wanting to stop them from doing that so our own interests are satisfied. As a patriot, I want my own nation to have the best spies and maintain or achieve superiority in all things. As a rational human being, I'm not going to begrudge any other nation the same desire.
I'm against the death penalty on moral grounds, but treason/spying cases are pretty much the only time when I hesitate to rule it out entirely. The cost of spying against my nation should be prohibitive, and I wouldn't be terribly upset if other nations followed suit. That's the risk assets take.
Re:Ha, he should get a medal (Score:3, Insightful)
They're not going to build their own space shuttle if they get their hands on our space shuttle plans. They'll learn from our designs and build something else like a missile, or use the material science for some new fighter jet. It's better they start from scratch than get a leg-up from our designs. The shuttle may be obsolete, but what do you think we use to learn from and improve on?
Re: ancient wisdom of the day (Score:3, Insightful)
Too bad that the use of spies is not at all part of Chinese "ancient wisdom."
"Hence it is only the enlightened ruler and the wise general who will use the highest intelligence of the army for purposes of spying and thereby they achieve great results."
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War. (6th century BC)
Re:What could possibly be new about the shuttle? (Score:4, Insightful)
It was an X program. That is the entire point of and X program. It is too push technology.
I think the problem is the X-33 didn't fit the X program very well. The X-15 had an equation, every pound of vehicle weight means X lower top speed and/or X lower altitude. With the X-33 orbiter, its orbit or don't orbit. I think it would have been a PR disaster if it didn't quite make it. Thus either it'll suck, or they'll push the limit too far and blow it up and that'll suck. Perhaps they beat the vegas odds and get everything to work perfectly, in which case it'll suck when people ask why spend all that cash when multistage disposable boosters are a much cheaper program. Kind of a no-win situation.
No one remembers the X-3 very fondly, although it was an interesting aircraft and provided valuable results.
Re:15 years? (Score:3, Insightful)
Arguing death penalty (which I'm generally against, btw) is like arguing abortion on the internet. It's a moral issue, and it's not worth arguing unless you're going to post some well reasoned articles (not sound bytes) that are well documented and researched. I'm not kidding when I say I'd be very interested to see a well written argument against the death penalty for treason. I still hold that his actions fit the generally accepted definition of treason.
Re:If only... (Score:3, Insightful)
Because there is value in forcing the Chinese to make all of our mistakes as well. If they have exact specs on what works, they don't need to run through the host of mistakes it took us to get to this technology. Outdated or not, it's still a valuable stepping stone.
Re:15 years? (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe we aren't talking about the same people...
I seem to remember them working illegal deals for arms through third parties, helping to ship cocaine into the US, doing mind control experiments on people in New York City (Operation Midnight Climax), Kidnapping people (and being sloppy about it), Torture. Let's not forget that they attempted to assassinate one world leader enough times to get him into the guiness book of world records (add multiple counts of attempted murder).
Exactly the sort of sociopaths I want on the payroll that I pay my taxes into.
Bravo! (Score:2, Insightful)
That's the best, one sentence global economic over view I have read. "China is spending money on its future, we are spending money from the future."
Nailed it. And I don't blame them for doing that, because our own domestic economic traitors handed that opportunity to them on a silver platter, the Chinese would have been 'tards to turn it down. It was completely logical what they did and are still doing, building up their own nation, "protecting" themselves, adding to their real economy, etc. Of course they would take that deal, free stuff. And how it happened is we let those wall street pirates and bribed off politicians cook this whole scheme up, then they hard sold it all over, to great success, they sold that con and got most to "believe" in it, and now they are extorting trillions in bailouts on top of that. *Extorting*.
The Chinese guy is sort of a spy, I'm not all that concerned about him because I imagine he is merely one of tens of thousands in a similar (barely hidden) tech transfer situation. Because that's been the business of the US since they started this con job, transfer as much manufacturing tech as possible.
The real economic and security damage has been from the short term mega profits crowd who destroyed, in a single generation, sold it off cheap for a fat skim, what it took multiple generations to build up in the US, all that wealth creation manufacturing infrastructure, all of it, from A to Z. All those value added jobs..all mostly poofed now, so multi millionaires could become billionaires and another flock of corrupt politicians could get re-re-re elected, so they could keep accepting more bribe money, all the time spouting off all these economic and social promises to the US people that they knew in advance could never be met. And they are still doing it, and tons of people asre still falling for that noise.
They sold this global wealth transference con with massive credit expansion, got almost everyone faked out that credit=produced wealth, like it is the same thing. Something to keep the peons amused while their bank accounts, retirement savings, etc all got evaporated away, and will continue to evaporate away.
On a small scale they call it corporate raiding. A hostile take over, sell off all the assets cheap, gut the workforce, etc. Massive short term profits are the result, wall street loves it, politicians love it, they all get rewarded for their "hard work" of gutting companies, then they bail out with golden parachutes, leaving a company in mostly name only. Everyone has seen this happen and knows exactly what that is.
But do the exact same thing on an entire national scale, all of a sudden there's this mass blindfold gets slapped on, people *refuse* to see the situation for what it is, go into complete denial over it, claim it is something other than that. We are supposed to believe these national scale wall street/ DC politician corporate raiders that what they are doing isn't corporate raiding. They just call it something else and say it is a "good deal".
They have been saying that for near 25 years now, and if it WAS such a good deal, why all the recent economic meltdown? Could it be, that manufacturing really is the big kahuna when it comes to creating real wealth, and not phony IOU and credit crap so called "wealth"? I say yes, it is. And we let them crooks sell it off cheap for their fat middleman skims, now we are seriously hosed, and are borrowing against our future generations, which is a pure bogus abomination, we should have never had to do that. It wasn't necessary until we let them sell off/transfer all that good tech and generations of hard work and massive investment in R&D.
Re:This will not stop spying (Score:3, Insightful)
But we SHOULD sanction the Chinese gov. These are active spies since this is a cold war with us. We are insane for allowing this.
Re:Promoting their agenda using others' advances. (Score:1, Insightful)
... says the country that imported its technology, social structures, philosophy, laws, religion - heck, even its language - from Europe.