Google, Apple Call Workers' Race & Gender Trade Secrets 554
theodp writes "The Mercury News reports that Google, whose stated mission is to make the world's information universally accessible, says the race and gender of its work force is a trade secret that cannot be released. So do Apple, Yahoo, Oracle, and Applied Materials. The five companies waged a successful 18-month FOIA battle with the Merc, convincing federal regulators who collect the data that its release would cause 'commercial harm' by potentially revealing the companies' business strategy to competitors. Law professor John Sims called the objections — the details of which the Dept. of Labor declined to share — 'absurd.' Many industry peers see the issue differently — Intel, Cisco, eBay, AMD, Sanmina, and Sun agreed to allow the DOL to provide the requested info. 'There's nothing to hide, in our view,' said a spokesman for Intel. Some observers note it's not the first time Google has declined to put a number on its vaunted diversity — in earlier Congressional testimony, Google's top HR exec dodged the question of how many African-American employees the company had."
Re:It's not the white males they're hiding. (Score:5, Interesting)
Someone please mod this up! A friend of mine works at Apple, and all her co-workers who are SW developers are from IT contracting outfits in India (yes, they're all Indian, too). She couldn't name a single developer who wasn't a contractor (even the non-Indian was a contractor).
Trade Secret? (Score:5, Interesting)
Does Google not want Microsoft to scoop them on their new blacksploitation search engine? Would knowing how many women work at Oracle be of the slightest use to a competitor?
Even if the data were valuable, they are nothing that you couldn't easily enough gather with a statistics grad and a pair of binoculars and a few days casing the relevant corporate campuses(not to mention the more exotic methods: With modern analytical chemistry, the threshold for what you can detect is pretty impressive. You could probably get an approximate gender ratio for a given building just by sampling the sewer outflow for excreted hormones. You could probably also gauge morale: If you know roughly how many people are working there, you can watch the concentrations metabolites for various drugs and get a rough aggregate sense of what, and how much, the building is on. More SSRIs and anxiolytics? Bad times. More cocaine? Ambiguous, or 80's flashback...) You can sample people for sex or color pretty quickly, and accurately enough, from a fair distance. If the data were worth more than peanuts, it'd already be available.
There is no such thing as race (Score:1, Interesting)
I can't stand answering this questions on various government forms. Variance within racial groups is larger than variance between racial groups.
Why don't they just ask you what shade your skin is and what your hair looks like? That's really what they want to know; and that's when you realize how absurd the question of "what race are you?" is.
Re:I'm pretty sure (Score:5, Interesting)
They probably want to pick the most qualified worker rather than the most politically correct one. If they end up with an entire workforce full of white employees, perhaps an investigation should be done as to why there are no other qualified candidates in the area.
so if google does no evil (Score:1, Interesting)
why do they wish to compete unfairly with other companies burdened with equal opportunity laws?
Why only tho focus only on black and hispanics??? (Score:1, Interesting)
Instead of focusing on the overall diversity of the companies?
I live in Palo Alto and know several people who work for Apple, a handful at Google; and even interviewed at the latter a while back. And I can guarantee that for every black or hispanic that these companies "lost", they gained two asians, an indian, and a gay or lesbian.
The merc is a ridiculous provincial little rag. Everyone here knows it. And that's why they knock up sensationalist nonsence like this story.
Trust me; the klan and aryan brotherhood are NOT going to be successful recruiting in Santa Clara Valley.
Three hypotheses for imbalance in ethnicity (Score:2, Interesting)
Let's pretend, for the sake of argument, that, if Google were to release statistics, those statistic would show some kind of imbalance in workforce based around ethnicity. I can see a few different possibilities for this.
Perhaps Google is racist in hiring. I doubt it.
Perhaps certain ethnic groups are inherently more capable of the kind of things needed to get a job with Google. I doubt this also.
Perhaps our society is structured in such a way that people born into certain ethnic groups are less likely to get the credentials and skills needed to get a job at Google. If this were the case, you'd likely also see disproportionate rates of unemployment, poverty, and incarceration based on ethnicity. Of course, that couldn't be the case. This is America, after all. We're a color-blind, post-racial society. Everyone is equal here.
So, that's what I can see. Since it can't be any of the three hypotheses I've suggested, it must be something else.
Re:It's not the white males they're hiding. (Score:1, Interesting)
H1Bs don't apply to contractors.
Re:Why does race or gender matter? (Score:2, Interesting)
No, the customary argument in favor of Affirmative Action is not that minorities need a handout. It's that fully qualified members of minority groups are both actively and passively discriminated against in employment, a fact which has been proven over and over again.
And enough already with the red herring of the mythical incompetent female firefighter. Where are all the factual horror stories about the female firefighters letting people die in fires because her widdle arms can't carry more than a latte? I'm sure you think that the fact that no such stories exist is proof of a big liberal coverup.
Re:It's not the white males they're hiding. (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm too lazy to do it again, but if you pull the numbers and do the math, the number of H1Bs that Microsoft employs is a rather small percentage of their total workforce.
In other words, Microsoft employs a ton of H1B visa holders because it has an absolutely massive overall number of employees. It's not particularly surprising that a company that engages in product development and basic research would require some foreign expertise. (Supporting this theory is that Microsoft's H1B applications have reportedly dropped at a rate that's roughly inversely proportional to the unemployment rate)
That all said, the H1B "problem" seems to be wildly blown out of proportion. The current law allows for 65,000 visas to be issued each year. In a country of 300 million people, 65,000 is really just a drop in the bucket (0.02% of the population, 0.04% of the labor force). Accounting for the total number of H1B holders is a bit more difficult, but even at 1 million (a wildly generous estimate), would still be less than 1% of the total workforce.
Also don't forget that there are plenty of Americans who work overseas. A degree of international mobility in the labor market is generally a good thing, as long as it's kept under reasonable control.
Find something else to complain about.
Re:I'm pretty sure (Score:3, Interesting)
Perhaps their numbers are skewed towards asians & indians. Who knows.
Re:I'm pretty sure (Score:5, Interesting)
They probably want to pick the most inexpensive worker rather than the most politically correct one. If they end up with an entire workforce full of H1B employees, perhaps an investigation should be done as to why there are no other qualified candidates in the area.
FTFY
Watching people get excited about and defend Google gives me terrible nostalgia of Microsoft's history.
Re:Why does race or gender matter? (Score:2, Interesting)
For example:
Even though the average "white" guy is not very much slower than the average "black" guy, in the 100 metre sprint world records, it's the fastest members that count, not the average or the slowest. There are very few sprinters not of West African lineage (and nonmale) that have run 100 metre races in less than 10 seconds.
Similarly nobody remembers the 100th person who proved E=MC^2. The Ashkenazi Jews have disproportionately more top scientists. Even if they have higher incidences of genetic disorders it doesn't matter for the "top scientists" criteria.
Why do I use the term breed instead of race? There are certainly breeds of humans even though they may not be as distinct as those for dogs. Race on the other hand would typically group diverse African breeds together (e.g. the Mbuti with the Zulus). Which is like grouping a chihuahua with a greyhound if they have the same colour fur, or came from the same country. It's actually correct for some cases but ridiculous in other cases.
Race tends to be more ambiguous, political, cultural and contextual. You have situations like the UK people using "Asian" to mean the South Asians (Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis etc), whereas the US people would tend to use "Asian" to mean the East Asians. The US at some point even had some strange category called "Asian or Pacific Islander"
Re:As for Apple... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not usually one to demand any particular degree of "diversity" of companies, but it is rather immediately noticeable how Apple's executives [apple.com] all come from the same demographics: white males between 40 and 65. You'd think there'd be at least one person from some other demographic--- it's not like this is the uniformity you see if you walk into a CS or engineering department at a university (ever seen one without a single asian?).
Re:Apparently "Evil" means "Non-White" (Score:4, Interesting)
Having walked around the Googleplex, it'd be hard to describe it as dominantly white. There are not too many African Americans, but asians are not absent by a long-shot.
Re:It's not the white males they're hiding. (Score:4, Interesting)
Disclaimer: I used to be on H1-B and am a permanent resident now.
Do not forget that it is 65,000 "new" H1Bs, they are valid for 3 years, renewable once for a theoretical total of 6 years. It is also extendable from year to year pending a change of status, usually while the green card application is being processed. Some people can be on H1-B for 12 years with this. Add to that the fact that H1-B are usually concentrated in a few areas and you get more than 1% of the local "workforce" (not the same as population).
That said I would estimate that the average H1B last 5 years. Personally I think the green card process is broken, if the queue is taking many years to process either the US should put more resources into it (it cost lost of money so it got to be profitable) or be more picky about application and reject them sooner.
I'm a bit annoyed at all the bad press H1-B visas get. Sure there is a lot of abuse, but I like to believe that in my case there was a genuine need for a foreigner. While being on a H1-B I've quit twice and each time for a significantly larger salary. On my last H1-B year my total compensation was double the required H1-B salary. I have a few friends that have been on H1-B and most of them were much more qualified than the average software developer here in Silicon Valley.
Re:Trade Secret? (Score:1, Interesting)
The same goes for Apple, except I've got it straight through the grapevine. My friend's interview was precisely 0% about technical things and 100% about whether he was interesting to hang around.
They know based on the school he's going to and his GPA that he can learn things. That's all that matters on that front.
What his future boss said was that they don't hire Indians and Chinese because they're culturally....socially....different. They just don't fit with the environment at Apple. Difficult to work with, particularly the Indians, he said. What's more, difficult to have a normal conversation with.
Re:we MUST hide (and protect) our african american (Score:3, Interesting)
I am half black, half white, and don't always relate to either half. One the whole, the black side of my family is much more worldly, educated and open minded. Thats just how it worked out in this particular case. Members of my father's family have spread all over the country and lived in foreign countries. Members of my mother's family have tended to stay in the Western US. Their attitudes are about what you would expect, even if you knew nothing of their skin color.
I think that these stand-offish attitudes are another relic of physical and often legal segregation that is, again, part of living memory for many Americans. Its not as if there was mass migration for the purposes of integration once the Civil Rights movement took hold. Where members of either culture have since moved to seek a better or different life, I think the cultural chasm narrows. Where insular communities (of any race or ethnicity) persist, ignorance and distrust of outsiders persists.
I've often heard that Africans do not naturally relate to African Americans. Is this so surprising? The United States and most African nations are as different as can be. Why do we assume that blacks of vastly divergent cultures would automatically relate?
Re:I'm pretty sure (Score:1, Interesting)
The equal opportunity system is absolutely not flawed, at least not in the direction that you're suggesting. It's actually set up so that only the most egregious offenders get busted. They do indeed do statistical analysis, and they use a wide range of data from the appropriate region to determine the likelihood of discrimination. Then, once they have determined that it's worth further investigation, they investigate.
You would be amazed at how often people are caught red-handed with memos, emails, minutes and more where it's handed down from on high--or at least from the middle--that guidelines beyond the requirements for the job are communicated clearly to those in the position to do hiring.
How do I know? Let's just say I've got connections to the DOL.
I see more middle class white men complaining around the water cooler about political correctness and hiring quotas. Funny, because if they didn't spend so much time bitching about such things and concentrated on their jobs, they'd probably be CEOs by now.
Re:I'm pretty sure (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:I'm pretty sure (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I'm pretty sure (Score:4, Interesting)
US Census [infoplease.com], median incomes for 2006:
White: $50,000 / year
Black: $32,000 / year
Hispanic: $38,000 / year
The percentages are also interesting.
Re:I'm pretty sure (Score:4, Interesting)
Great post, technically correct, but totally ignoring the elephant in the room.
Yes, "equal opportunity" is what you say. "Affirmative action", however, is exactly what you say "equal opportunity" is not.
Both are law. So your whole diatribe basically makes one point : "you're misidentifying the law you're complaining about". Of course, you're acting as if this little mistake invalidates the whole argument.
That's just not how you present your argument : it's a direct attack against complaining about the obvious stupidity of this law. In other words, you agree with affirmative action, with racist quotas (oh sorry I meant "racial" quotas, which means the same thing), and you somehow feel the need to attack anyone disagreeing with you with tiny little details.
Your argument is as idiotic as saying "watr" isn't wet, due to misspelling.
Re:Cultural differences, why are people so oblivio (Score:2, Interesting)
What a collection of stereotypes taken out of context. Almost feels like a bad soap opera. Nazi ideology didn't grow on trees you know. It wasn't some flashy new idea that emerged over the course of few hours or even a few years. Nor did Panthers invent 'black self-defense' thing. Did communist invent struggle for worker's liberation out of whim?
Also, communists didn't believe that everybody should be the same. They put high value on labor, and if you are not a working[wo]man, you are more-or-less inferior. Also, communist society never grew outside their own history and planted into an otherwise 'healthy' society. Conversely, once a communist system is abolished, and a 'democratic' system is installed, values did not change over night. They remained more-or-less stable initially, and only gradually shifted towards the new set of values. And that's despite the fact that installing democratic systems in communist countries was never undramatic. Nazis have their background, too, and so do panthers.
Re:I'm pretty sure (Score:3, Interesting)
The problem is no longer disparity between races, it's disparity between socioeconomic classes.
Indeed, and few people seem to realize that -- and they don't WANT you to realize it. Racism is a tool of the rich to keep the poor at each others' throats and their attention away from the fact that they're just the rich man's tools. Remember Blago's "I'm blacker than Obama" equating class with race?
The fix for this would be to fund education differently. As it is, property tax (the most evil of all taxes IMO) mostly funds education, so the rich will get a FAR better education than the poor. This is exacerbated by the fact that the poor adults have had the same shitty education as their kids, keeping them down more.
Instead of "no child left behind" they need "no SCHOOL left behind".
Those in power use magic, and I don't mean Merlin magic, I mean David Copperfield magic. "Do not look at the man behind the curtain."
Re:No: translation "leave us alone" (Score:3, Interesting)
There are some big problems with affirmative action.
I'm a minority who stutters... believe when I say... I have not fulfilled my potential.
Yet, affirmative action tries to cast far too wide a net. What it normally does is help people who don't any help.
Do you think Google is going to increase its 'African American' percentage by hiring the kid from the inner city? Or do you think they will hire a middle/upper class african american who really doesn't need any help?
It also has what I would call the 'missed opportunity' problem. It's fine and dandy to just be a worker bee. But if you look at Indians/Asians. One of their strengths is simply dealing with it by building your own. So store X does not cater to indian food... no problem... open up their own indian supermarket. I really feel affirmative action has hurt african americans more than helped. It has prevented them from forming their own community institutions. Instead, they decided to pretty much rely on government... other people to care about their own community.
Their leadership sits around waiting for a utopia where all government institutions (like public schools) are great and everyone cares about everyone. Waiting for utopia does not work. Life is a balance and while the state can provide somethings. If it is not, you have to provide things for yourself. A little history will tell you the state never cares about the poor... when push comes to shove, they will line their own pockets. Just look at california's budget problems? Which is more likely... they cut public sector salaries and pensions... or they cut services that help the poor. My money is on them cutting services for the poor, while keeping their pay and pensions. So don't put all your eggs in one basket. If a public school is not cutting it... demand school vouchers. If a public rec center is not cutting it, build a rec center in your church or work with the community for your own park. If you don't see fresh food at your supermarket... start your own supermarket.
Anyways, back to affirmative action.
something like 'african american' is just too wide a net. You might as well throw in poverty, disabilities, religion, cultural group... and in the end, you will have so many groups that it becomes meaningless. Trying to help those who really need help will be impossible. I honestly think the missed opportunity outweights any benefits of affirmative action.