$1M Prize For Finding Cause of Unintended Acceleration 690
phantomfive writes "Edmunds Auto has announced that it will be offering a $1 million prize to anyone who can find the cause of unintended acceleration. As Wikipedia notes, this is a problem that has plagued not only Toyota, but also Audi and other manufacturers. Consumer Reports has some suggestions all automakers can implement to solve this problem, including requiring brakes to be strong enough to stop the car even when the accelerator is floored."
Me thinks (Score:1, Insightful)
.. the problem is between the pedals and the seat, morons.
"The" cause (Score:2, Insightful)
Okay, I'll save them a million right here. "The" cause is that humans make mistakes. Cars are designed, assembled, and operated by humans.
Hmmm.... (Score:4, Insightful)
How about some sort of a mechanical linkage between the throttle body and the pedal....oh wait...where have I seen this before?
How the idea of "drive by wire" became popular is beyond me. There are some things that need to remain simple, and in human control. Steering, braking, throttle, and gear selection should never be done fully by electronics and remain in the drivers hands...along with the ability to kill power to the engine for that matter.
Solution (Score:3, Insightful)
We already have a solution - Cut the power when the break is pushed.
What I struggle to understand is why this isn't a legal requirement on all new drive-by-wire cars?
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Solution (Score:0, Insightful)
We already have a solution - Cut the power when the break is pushed
How do you left-foot brake if pressing the brake cuts the power?
The far bigger problem is the dramatic rise in non-standard controls over the last few years to the point where people can't even figure out how to stop the engine when they get into a new rental car. Going from an era where in 99% of cases you just turn the key to where you may have to tap three times on the starter while singing Ave Maria is a huge step backwards.
Re:Idiocy. (Score:3, Insightful)
As someone else said, shifting just sends a signal to the transmission. You're not directly controlling any gears. The transmission won't go into neutral or reverse at a high speed probably because of safety protocols in the software. The people that testified said they tried exactly this and it didn't stop the acceleration.
So you could argue that the software should allow this and let the engine rev and let whatever happen.
-John
Brakes! (Score:3, Insightful)
"... including requiring brakes to be strong enough to stop the car even when the accelerator is floored."
Yikes. Isn't that always the case, or are they really selling cars in the US with brakes that aren't able to do this? Just for the record, lack of this ability would basically mean that the car can accelerate faster than it can decelerate, and most cars accelerate pretty darn slow.
If your brakes can't do this, get them the fsck fixed. They're broken.
All cars already have this system (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Me thinks (Score:3, Insightful)
But those of us who CAN drive usually have the sense to want more brakes than the "barely able to stop once, much less handle a downhill mountain road" rubber bands that seem to be the common equipment on mainstream cars.
BTW, can someone actually name a car sold in the last 5 years that cannot stop, even against full engine power?
AWESOME CONTEST!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
What was that? No?
Didn't think so.
And where is the source? (Score:3, Insightful)
> What I struggle to understand is why this isn't a legal requirement on all new drive-by-wire cars?
You would think that there would also be a requirement that the source code be released for review to anyone who cares.
Re:Solution (Score:5, Insightful)
We already have a solution - Cut the power when the break is pushed
How do you left-foot brake if pressing the brake cuts the power?
You don't. It's not something you should be doing anyway.
Well, I have the solution... (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't know the cause, but to fix it, push down on that third pedal. It disconnects the engine from the wheels.
You don't have one? Oh... Hmm... Evolution at work. Better luck next time!
Re:Turn the key off or put the car in neutral..... (Score:3, Insightful)
Have you ever tried it? In any sane car (and I except 2 tonne SUV monstrosities) you don't need power steering to steer effectively except at very low speed.
Brakes might be more of an issue, but even after turning off the engine, there is usually enough stored potential energy in the servo reservoir for a minute or two of braking.
Re:What's with these drive by wire cars? (Score:3, Insightful)
If done correctly it is not more dangerous. mechanical cables and linkages fail too. What you get out of it is greater flexibility in the design and added control that lets the designer improve efficiency. for example it is generally better to ramp the throttle open rather than snap the butterfly open -- snapping it open causes a sudden loss of vacuum in the manifold which kills airflow for a fraction of a second. You'll get better fuel economy and the engine performance will be improved. Coming in the not too distant future is electronic steering. Removing the mechanical connection to the steering wheel will make it possible to repackage the system without having to worry about shaft angles; and, will improve safety in accidents because there won't be a steering column to get in the way and crush legs.
Drive by wire aka fly by wire is technology that's been used in aircraft for two decades now and is only just finding its way into cars.
Kill Switch? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously - an Off switch within emergency reach of the driver - how complex a concept is that?
OTOH, what are these cars doing with such massive embedded systems in them? I've seen numbers in the tens of millions of lines of computer code being bandied around as indicators of their size and complexity - WTF does a *car* need all that computing power for? I've driven dozens of cars without a single microchip in them - they started, they stopped, they did everything you'd reasonably expect a piece of personal transport to do. What does adding all that complexity get you, apart from a car only officially licenced and approved dealers can work on because nobody else has the diagnostic software...? Oh wait...
Never mind.
Re:Solution (Score:3, Insightful)
Why shouldn't you be doing it? That's not what I was taught when racing cars in my younger years...
One of the problems these days is people aren't taught how to drive properly - they have to hold the steering wheel in the wrong place (ten-to-two when it should be quarter-to-three), they're told to only ever hit the brakes to slow down when they should be changing down a gear and using engine braking to keep the car under control and pre-load suspension and brakes more safely, they're taught never to cross their hands on the steering wheel when it's imperative that you DO cross hands when it's called for. Basically, most people these days are taught to drive like a complete spack so that they never have enough skill to drive fast (and, I'd imagine, so that never have a chance to get away from police who HAVE been taught correctly).
Re:Solution (Score:5, Insightful)
Why shouldn't you be doing it? That's not what I was taught when racing cars in my younger years...
Because it's a dangerous technique that is used by racing drivers to get some extra speed out of their car. When you are on the road you should not be trying to get that extra speed, you should be trying to get the extra safety. Now grow up.
Re:Solution (Score:2, Insightful)
Unfortunately there are situations where you do need both the engine and the brakes at the same time. Try getting out of a parking spot on a steep hill without hitting the car behind and in front of you. It's a balancing act. Clearly not necessary in Kansas.
Re:Hmmm.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Hmmm.... (Score:3, Insightful)
It still happens with a mechanical throttle though ... twice, to me.
First time was when the clip holding the outer at the carbie fractured; the outer pushed forwards into the throttle arm and opened it all the way when I lifted my foot off the accelerator. The second was a worn and frayed inner; it jammed when I accelerated away from an intersection. Both happened on the same stretch of road, oddly enough.
The lesson is this: shit happens; understand what you're doing well enough to automatically know your options when it does; and have the presence of mind to use them. Though, given that most people seem to drive around in some sort of daze or torpor where they don't even know what they're doing until after they start doing it, I doubt they think any further ahead than -0.5 seconds...
Re:Me thinks (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What's with these drive by wire cars? (Score:1, Insightful)
Why are the moderators modding up garbage like this? Fly by wire in airplanes uses triple redundant systems at a minimum, and more commonly quadruple redundant, and they test the shit out of it before it makes its way into production. In cars, on the other hand, nothing is ever redundant and they don't do anywhere near the kind of testing they do for airplanes. It's as though car designers care more about their convenience than about making the vehicles failsafe, and they should do hard time if anyone dies because of their attitude towards engineering.
Re:Kill Switch? (Score:4, Insightful)
These things are really saving lives by not slamming into trees when your car would suddenly start spinning on a slippery surface, as it would when you did not have ESC installed.
(Anti-lock braking [wikipedia.org] is an older technology, which also needs computing power, but this thing is actually needed to achieve ESC. My car only has this ABS, since it's a fairly cheap model)
I wouldn't be suprised if there are more very usefull things in a modern car that need that kind of computing power.
Re:You can NOT "just put it in neutral"... (Score:5, Insightful)
For the millionth time, you CAN put these cars into neutral at speed. I've personally done so.
...And releasing the accelerator will mean the engine car slows down. I've personally done that.
Since the car's electronics are malfunctioning, I think that assuming that the various systems controlled by the electronics would work as usual is making a rather large assumption.
Re:Solution (Score:3, Insightful)
No, just two different driving styles. And maybe, just maybe, you could disengage the engine power cutoff and all other such devices when going racing and re-engage it when returning to public roads. Because, after all, it's pretty unreasonable to demand that all cars should be made with the needs of racers in mind.
Re:Right answer (Score:3, Insightful)
In Australia, it's a legal requirement that an automatic gearbox has no interlocks preventing the driver from shifting from a driving gear to neutral. You don't even need to press the shift button to shift to neutral. As long as you don't actually switch the engine off, there will be enough oil circulation to keep the gearbox happy while you fly on inertia. Shifting to neutral and switching the engine off would likely cause damage if you were travelling at high speed.
Re:You can NOT "just put it in neutral"... (Score:1, Insightful)
That's not true. My landrover has an electrical lockout that prevents changing into nuteral whilst driving. I have tried it
Re:AWESOME CONTEST!!! (Score:1, Insightful)
Yeah that's what I don't get. What are they going to do, take suggestions and compare them to a list of shit they've tried already? Have you guys tried turning it off and on again?
If you seriously want serious help from serious nerds that seriously know serious shit, get serious and AND RELEASE THE SOURCE CODE AND RELATED INFORMATION.
This is exactly like helping your parents "fix" their Windows machine over the phone. We're pretty useless (or might as well be reading from a script or howto) unless we can tinker with the conflicted contraption and press ALL of it's buttons to see what they do and how they act. Some other post suggested it was the garbage collector or something nice and obscure like that. Only by using the source can we figure out stuff like that.
Do I get a point wasted on my anonymous ass for having a computer analogy in a car topic?
On a side note I was absolutely furious when I realized that every single car I had my eye on was drive-by-wire when I bought my current car. I do not want a computer controlling my throttle position, and absolutely do not want it handling my brakes in any fashion. My problem with drive-by-wire is that computers can not possibly know what I want the engine to do. There are times for things like that, and that system already exists in the form of cruise control. If I don't want to manage my throttle then I want it to be fully managed, I have no desire for anything in between. People that *drive* have no desire for anything in between. People that go places will certainly benefit from drive-by-wire systems though, so we're going to see more and more of them, sadly. 2008 Honda Fit 5-speed manual. Braking works while giving it gas (and I need new pads), but IT'S A STICK. Even if the floor mats were a culprit in my ride and fouled every pedal, that bitch is going in to neutral whether it wants to or not.
Re:Me thinks (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:You can NOT "just put it in neutral"... (Score:4, Insightful)
From my reading, pushing the brakes (yes, even real hard) does not cause the electronics to cut the gas in Toyotas -- this is one of the usability problems in Toyotas, so to speak. However, in all tests, the brakes in Toyotas are able to overpower the engine, although it might take a bit longer to stop than normal.
I believe in the future Toyota plan to introduce an engine cut-off feature when the brakes are applied hard.
Re:Turn the key off or put the car in neutral..... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:All cars already have this system (Score:3, Insightful)
This might explain why the issue has shown up more in the US than elsewhere. It countries where most drivers have a manual transmission (as in the UK), when you're stopped you've either got your foot on the clutch or the transmission in neutral, and when under power you can always disconnect the engine by stamping on the clutch.
Re:Right answer (Score:3, Insightful)
Shifting to neutral and switching the engine off would likely cause damage if you were travelling at high speed.
No, it doesn't. Ask any automatic transmission repair guy. Unless you're going to coast for more than about 10 miles (probably impossible unless you're driving down a mountain slope) then nothing bad is going to happen.
Where are people coming up with this nonsense?
The worst that happens from turning the engine off is that you lose power steering assist, and after a couple of applications of the brakes you lose the power brake boost.
Re:Huh ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Million Dollar Answer (Score:5, Insightful)
An easy fix would be to have a 'dead' spot on the accelerator right at the end of the travel, so that the 'foot to the floor' situation would just result in the car idling
Disastrous idea. I've had to accelerate hard a few times to avoid a collision, and you do that by flooring it, no time to think further. Unfortunately once I couldn't do that because there was a car right in front of me and we were both stopped. The resulting fireball resulting in 8 cars looking like this [gdargaud.net]... Way to end a honeymoon.
Don't you mean... (Score:3, Insightful)
That the main problem is the American press being influenced by the Government trying to create mass hysteria? The Government DOES own quite a large stake in GM.