IBM Stops Disclosing US Headcount Data 377
theodp writes "ComputerWorld reports that IBM has stopped providing breakouts on US employees, closing a door to data that provided insights into the bellwether company's employment shift. In its latest Annual Report, Big Blue only provides its global headcount, and an IBM spokesman confirmed that disclosure of US headcount is a thing of the past. The Rochester Institute of Technology's Ron Hira called the US workforce data critical for policymakers trying to understand the dynamics of offshoring. 'By hiding its offshoring, IBM is doing a disservice to America — through omission the company is providing misleading labor market signals and information to policy makers,' Hira said. Ironically, CEO Sam Palmisano's Letter to Shareholders, which accompanied the Annual Report, touts how IBM's Analytics and 'Smarter Planet' efforts are empowering US government decision-makers. Nondisclosure domestically and abroad seems to be the new rule of thumb for Big Tech, sparking calls for government intervention." IBM laid off about 10,000 US workers last year, and 2,900 so far this year, according to the Alliance@IBM, a labor union.
If you have nothing to hide... (Score:5, Interesting)
...then why are you hiding it?
Companies that operate contrary to the national interest of the countries they operate in, shouldn't be allowed to operate in those countries.
Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains.
--Thomas Jefferson
Good (Score:2, Interesting)
Open Source is also a driver (Score:4, Interesting)
I run a small company. The reality is, off shoring especially with the Open Source market makes entirely too much sense from a business perspective. I can have 4 United States based people, and another 12 strategically located throughout the world. The cost of the 4 is the same as the 12. It is better for my customers, and frankly my pocket book. Also, to be honest Open Source expertise is easier to obtain off american shores.
The downside to the largest economy in the world is that it is also ridiculously expensive. Of course not as bad as western Europe but still...
Re:Umm, so what? (Score:5, Interesting)
but then get all fucking communist when it affects THEIR jobs
India isn't too bad but a lot of the jobs will be going to China, which IS all fucking communist. When I lived in China I applied to the local IBM to do business intelligence / data warehousing. They wanted to pay me a Chinese wage which would be OK there in China. But IBM wanted to send me to the USA on an L visa which lets them continue to pay the China wage the whole time. I made it through three levels of interviews before I found this out. When I said that as a US citizen I'd have to make at least US minimum wage (which would NOT be cool at all) they hung up and stopped responding to my calls. If you have an IBM consultant in the USA who is Chinese - he (she) is getting paid about $1,000/month while you're getting billed $120/hr from Blue.
you're not up on current events (Score:5, Interesting)
the entire company, middle management and upper management, is moving to india. they have an internal timeframe for this, sped up and slowed down by economic and political influences. of course they will retain a toehold here, but it will be a shell of its former self
good for india. bad for the usa. ibm has betrayed the usa
Re:Umm, so what? (Score:3, Interesting)
Let's get real. The poorest people in India aren't going to get those jobs.
You're right about the US hypocrisy over free trade, but I think if you examine your conscience you'll conclude that India isn't free from hypocrisy either.
Why is IBM doing this culling? (Score:4, Interesting)
IBM is one of the few companies that remained consistently profitable during the worst recession since the Great Depression. This profitability was accomplished by replacing high-wage Americans with low-wage foreigners in India, China, etc. Seeing the writing on the wall, IBM management has decided to accelerate the reduction of the American workforce.
The shareholders love this strategy since it maximizes their return on investment. The only problem is a political one: Washington will retaliate against IBM if IBM drastically reduces its American workforce in favor of cheap overseas labor. Hence, IBM has ceased reporting the size of the American workforce.
Dirty? Disgusting? Yes. Good business strategy? Yes.
its worse than that (Score:4, Interesting)
ibm gets obscene special favors in the midhudson valley politically and economically on the national, state, and county, and city levels
and all the while ibm slowly moves everyone out
so its getting special treatment to TAKE AWAY jobs. how the hell does that work? i know new york politics is fucked up, but come on, this is blatant, long standing and insanely obvious
ibm is getting special treatment, and it serenely smiles while it stabs new york in the back
i have nothing for ibm management except burning hatred. i spit on ibm. as for new york politicians, they're so fucking retarded and dysfunctional, hate has no use
The "I" stands for... (Score:3, Interesting)
Did anyone expect anything else from "International Business Machines"? They are not "American Business Machines".
Re:If you have nothing to hide... (Score:5, Interesting)
If Microsoft and IBM likes chinese and indian labor so much- how about making the executives move there.
Then if they cross the government, they can simply disappear at night (in china) or perhaps be killed by some random extremist (india).
But no... they stay in the u.s. reaping the benefits of our legal system, police, military protection, democracy and "relative" safety (i.e. our government does bad things too- but not to the wealthy much any more).
If IBM has 1000 employees in the US and 90000 employees overseas- then why should they get us government work any more.
Seriously-- this is going to fix itself. Rampant inflation in china and india (over 100% on the low end of society) combined with deflation here and the retiring baby boomers should give us some relief in under five years.
Likewise, it's reached a point where the u.s. consumer isn't willing to spend future money any more because that future money is increasingly dubious.
Overseas capitalism wouldn't be so bad if it resulted in cheaper prices here. But it doesn't. Laws protect the right to sell drugs for 1/50th of the cost there and forbid importation here. To sell movies for $2.50 there and $20.00 here. You can't have it both ways. You can't ship the jobs over there AND keep charging 10 to 20 times as much for products in the U.S.
Unions aren't the problem (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:I've never joined a union but .. (Score:3, Interesting)
You forgot to mention the 40hr work week and a minimum wage. Unions have their downside, but at least one generation has been significantly better off for their existence.
In the US, hat would be our grandfathers' generation.
In the last 50 years or so, the big US unionolpoly (AFL-CIO) has done very little to keep jobs or improve conditions. Mostly it has focused on pursuing unsustainable benefits packages for its dwindling membership, enriching its managers, and allying with organized crime.
Unions can be good, but the AFL-CIO has given unionization a bad name.
Re:ibm isn't an american company anymore (Score:1, Interesting)
just because when you call a help desk and you hear an indian voice, doesn't mean everything IBM does happens in india. sure the low-level call centers might be there, but all of the real-work is done either in Europe or the US.
you have no idea what you are talking about 'circletimessquare'
You're saying that R&D and product development aren't real work? Apparently so - because they're doing increasing amounts of that in Beijing and Bangalore as well. The only thing that isn't being moved off-shore are the executives. Trust me on this one. I work there.
Thank you Slashdot (Score:5, Interesting)
ibm was born in new york state (Score:5, Interesting)
binghampton, to be exact
it used to be a major employer in hudson valley towns like kingston, poughkeepsie, fishkill, westchester, and new york city, and all the rust belt cities along the thruway corridor to buffalo
but this started shrinking as it went international, and accelerated as the political center of gravity within the company has shifted to bangalore. hey, it makes sense economically, and its good for india. but ibm has shafted its birthplace, and as someone from the area, so i say fuck them for the betrayal
as a historical major and influential employer, it has developed relationships with new york state and the feds for decades. therefore, the story of ibm is a shining burning example of how corporate money destroys my country
if you want to start your own ibm hate machine, and you should, start here:
http://www.niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=background.view&backgroundid=00434 [niemanwatchdog.org]
dear frothing at the mouth tea party morons:
stop listening to your demagogues who redirect your rightful anger at your government. the people robbing you blind are corporations, not your fellow poor citizens who just need healthcare. money influence in our government and our congress is destroying our nation. stop focusing your hate at your poor brothers and sisters. focus your righteous anger at the corrupting influence of corporate dollars that pay for the propaganda that fools you, all the while stabbing you in the back with a smile
stop hating your fellow man who just needs healthcare, your anger's direction is paid for by healthcare companies and their demagogues for hire
don't focus your anger on your government. focus your anger on the assholes in your government who are supposed to represent you but instead sell you out to the highest bidder. you need to reform government, not destroy it
and finally, focus your anger on the corporations themselves, who take away your job, defy your rights, and destroy your country with their special interests, all the while paying demagogue assholes to tell you that it is your poor neighbor who is to blame, because he needs healthcare and unemployment benefits, that they deny him
if this is too michael moore for you, recall that what motivated him to initially make films like roger and me was hatred for gm for destroying flint michigan. dear tea party right winger: you get poorer, and you get angrier, and they get richer, and they take your lifeblood out of this country. you want to talk patriotism? go ahead and hate michael moore for his left leaning beliefs if you want, but don't hate him because he fights for YOU: the future third world residents of the formerly great country known as the usa
know the real villain: corporations, not the government. the government is only the villain insofar as corporations have paid them to be
Re:If you have nothing to hide... (Score:5, Interesting)
"The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission's Regulation Fair Disclosure, also commonly referred to as Regulation FD or Reg FD, was an SEC ruling implemented in October 2000. It mandated that all publicly traded companies must disclose material information to all investors at the same time." [wikipedia.org]
I believe that most investors would think that a comnpany's US-based employee head-count to be "material" to their investment decisions, particularly when the Federal government is both a customer of that company, and interested in these numbers. I also think it wouldn't be that big a stretch to consider not disclosing these numbers a a violation of insider trading laws, given that the top executives and the board of directors would be familiar with the counts.
Re:let me see (Score:3, Interesting)
As an American, I apologize on behalf of those of us (who are a minority, I believe) who don't agree with the way our government doesn't regulate businesses, and has allowed this place to turn into a fascist/corporatist state. Personally, I'd like to see our country operate a lot more like Switzerland: keep to ourselves, don't get involved in foreign conflicts, and make quality products and sell them.
I'm sure a lot of Americans would like to do something about it, but with a two-party political system where both parties are in the pockets of the corporations, and most of the populace too stupid to care or vote for 3rd parties, there's not much we can do.
Re:I've never joined a union but .. (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh, the unions were never bastions of purity, not even in your grandpa's day. Nor was management. Nor was government, not even small town government.
It all boils down to a simple but overlooked aspect of human nature: people tend to be most public spirited when they see themselves getting the most out of the public good in the long run.
So it's no accident that you see unions willing to destroy the companies they work for to get short term gains when they expect their jobs to be shipped overseas. Especially since the top level managers were making a killing offshoring jobs. A *safe* killing too. There's no reason the CEO job couldn't be sent overseas. There's lots of really talented people in India who would do that job for less. Hell, if that's to exotic, you could still save bundle by replacing yoru top level management with Europeans.
The only reason that management doesn't offshore their own jobs is because they are in a position to stop that from happening. And you expect *unions* to look out for the company's interests under these conditions? To refrain from screwing the company so management can do it first?
As for organized crime, you're worried about the teamsters, but not Goldman Sachs? I suppose it makes a kind of ironic sense: if a criminal has enough power to draft the laws and get friendly justices appointed to the courts, *technically* he's not a criminal any longer.
We're in a quick buck economy, where it's about getting yours before somebody else grabs his. If you're a worker and your union runs the company into the ground, you're a villain. If you're a CEO and you run your company into the ground, you're senatorial material.
And older (Score:5, Interesting)
For some of us it was our generation. And we tried, we really tried to warn you. Then for years we kept getting told by the white collar workers that it was all our fault that the manufacturing jobs were shifting away. We kept trying to tell you guys that your turn would come next, because we looked at the situation, hell we were living the situation so it was easy to see, that the big increases were going to wall street, that's where the massive skim was going, but you refused to listen. You believed the big liars instead. Because those crooks are "white collar" too, so you automatically identify with them, so you believed those guys instead of the older generation blue collars who tried to tell you the straight shit.
Even now, with all the emphasis on the economy and every single possible clue you need to see what is really going on..crickets. Mass denial. The white collars generic "you" will not ever understand that your own government and big economic leaders have been hell bent on stealing everything, all of it, yes even from you, then getting the theft victims, starting to include you now, to blame each other instead of the real crooks.
Enjoy the big bucks "you" might still be getting now, because it won't last long. The same globalists who ripped us off and then shifted the blame are doing it to you now, but you'll wait and do nothing as one by one by one by one you are picked off, sniped, until there is just one little special snowflake left who melts away whimpering, wondering what happened.
And you'll never blame the correct people, because you got suckered completely into believing their globalism and stock market bullshit that you could get something for nothing forever, and that you were somehow special and exempt from the great global wage arbitrage scam because you are "white collar", and you won't notice that global wage arbitrage is never accompanied with global cost of living reductions in places that lose mass numbers of jobs. You see that's the con, they claim that costs of living will go down, and more jobs will just magically appear, just spring out of the ether, but they don't, and you have had an entire generation and a half to see that, but you still aren't seeing it.
That's the lie they use to sell that con, and it is very effective so far, because they gave you credit and "stock" numbers instead of real wage increases. You can't even tell those things apart, you believe those crooks that they are the same thing.
People don't pick up on it until they lose their job..and look for work..and look for work. And a year later are still looking for work and they are now completely broke and wondering when the unemployment checks will stop. But by then they finally have taken the time to take a real look at the situation and figure things out better, but it is too late then to do anything about it to help yourself.
And the cost of living never adjusts down to deal with the lost wages and jobs, that stays the same or goes higher, because those thieves are never satisfied and they want it all and they 100% own government and keep the laws in their favor, always. Oh, they let you "vote", and you keep voting for one of the two hand picked for you candidates at the top, believing this is your "choice", or one of the two hand picked for you candidates for lesser than the top job. And the cycle continues and you keep wondering why.
Inefficient IRS == Good (Score:1, Interesting)
No thanks, I'd rather not have the IRS become an information clearinghouse for the rest of Uncle Sam (and all those pesky TLAs).
Though it is kind of "funny" when you think about all the other government groups (like the Census Bureau) which collect information already held by the IRS.
Re:Speaking as an IBMer... (Score:3, Interesting)
Also speaking as an IBMer, and can totally agree with this.
Indians working in IBM ***IN INDIA*** appear to be essentially useless without any ability to do anything on their own. If you've not asked them to do something specific, they'll happily sit doing nothing for the 5.5 hours before you get into the office, instead of acting on their own initiative and doing something that needs doing (even when its obvious, e.g. a list of defects that need fixing, tests that need running etc). Curiously, if they are brought on-shore they seem to be pretty good and do show some independent thought. Maybe we only see the absolute 0.0001% top of the class best sent over? Perhaps when they are out of the Indian culture and somewhere like Europe, they have the balls to actually speak up?
There will however always be a place for IBMers in their home countries - this role will be to assign work and defects offshore, code review work coming in from off shore, send reviewed code back off shore and tel them to stop copy-pasting from Google, then go explain to the management why things are riddled with defects and behind schedule, then repeat until you are way over schedule and way over budget. Then eventually when the shit really hits the fan, the on-shore technical people will be expected to snatch as much as possible from the jaws of defeat by pulling 70 hour weeks to make things work.
Oh and by the way I've been in IBM for under 4 years, I'm 27 and joined directly from uni and *even I* can see this is madness - this is not a comment from an old-school IBMer pining for the "old days"!
Re:The only cognitive dissonance is your own (Score:3, Interesting)
The US politicians are doing a good job of it.
The CEOs and other elite are doing a good job of it (bonuses for screw ups etc).
But the US voters in general aren't doing a good job of it.
The "Republicans and Democrats" voters are like those pro-wrestling fans - their team can do no wrong at least in comparison with the other team (even if they do the same bad thing as the other team).
The Libertarians don't seem to understand that it's not whether a government is small or big that matters so much. It's about quality not quantity! Getting fixated on quantity means that even if you get what you ask for, you don't necessarily get what is good. A small corrupt government is just as likely as a big corrupt one to work with corrupt corporations to screw the voters.
The voters who don't bother to vote at all. The politicians can safely ignore these - they do not count.
No surprise then that the elected Government isn't taking as good care of voter interests, since the voters themselves aren't clear on what to do to protect their interests.
Lastly: voting to "send a message" in many ways is easier than buying/boycotting consistently enough to "send a message", especially if a company or country you are boycotting produces so many of the goods you use.
Re:Wow. Offshoring... (Score:3, Interesting)
I suppose you have to attack like that to boost your ego, "Lord" ender. No skin off my back.
Using some specialized term that 99% of the population wouldn't use only shows naive ivory tower elitism.
U6 is what was called "UN"employment before the government started inventing terms to hide the truth.
I've never heard a single person say they were "underemployed" when they couldn't find a job.
And that certainly didn't change when their unemployment benefits ran out.
Then they would just say, "I'm unemployed. And now have have no benefits. I'm screwed."
Not going to bother feeding the troll any more.