Methane-Trapping Ice May Have Triggered Gulf Spill 341
sciencehabit writes with an excerpt from Science that begins: "Methane-trapping ice of the kind that has frustrated the first attempt to contain oil gushing offshore of Louisiana may have been a root cause of the blowout that started the spill in the first place, according to [UC Berkeley] professor Robert Bea, who has extensive access to BP p.l.c. documents on the incident. If methane hydrates are eventually implicated, the US oil and gas industry would have to tread even more lightly as it pushes farther and farther offshore in search of energy."
Spill baby spill! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Spill baby spill! (Score:5, Insightful)
this is why I'm against sudden rapid expansions of industry into sensitive environmental areas.
Article says "Drillers have long been wary of methane hydrates because they can pack a powerful punch. One liter of water ice that has trapped individual methane molecules in the "cages" of its crystal structure can release 168 liters of methane gas when the ice decomposes."
Doesn't exactly sound like this was a new and unforseen problem, it doesn't sound like this happened because we were being hasty. It sounds like it happened because they were on some level being stupid and ignoring a well-known risk. In my book, that's an even stronger reason not to drill. We've known about that for a long time and the oil companies -still- haven't made sure this can't happen? These are not people who should be making potentially environment-altering decisions for the rest of us.
Re:Spill baby spill! (Score:5, Interesting)
One liter of water ice that has trapped individual methane molecules in the "cages" of its crystal structure can release 168 liters of methane gas when the ice decomposes."
I wonder if that can be harnessed as an energy source?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You're seeing the problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You're seeing the problem (Score:5, Informative)
There is a ton of energy available in this form, throughout the oceans. It's a concern that the instability of these methane structures could actually cause some rapid climate change, if they're disturbed by warming oceans, current changes, etc.
That same instability makes them damn hard to mine for energy. A number of companies and research organizations have tried, but so far, everyone that's disturbed them has watched as the methane bubbled up to the surface, and escaped into the air.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I do not get why lowering a containment dome over the leak allowed freezing. I don't know what an oil and water mix can take to freeze solid. If that is the issue why not simply add a heater inside that container?
Further why do we not have containers poised above every valve cluster in case of urgent need? Why was this never required? Why were the shut off valves not tested every day or two? And why not simply bolt some lead on
Re:You're seeing the problem (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Spill baby spill! (Score:4, Funny)
....need more vespene gas?
Re:Spill baby spill! (Score:5, Informative)
Article says "Drillers have long been wary of methane hydrates because they can pack a powerful punch.. . . " . . . Doesn't exactly sound like this was a new and unforseen problem, . . .
The drilling is taking place in deeper and deeper water. Deep waters have high pressure and the low temperature. Both of these make formation of methane clathrates more likely. The high pressures a mile beneath the ocean surface also make it easier to dissolve gas in the oil. Avoiding pipeline blockages and explosive decompressions is not trivial. To the extent the industry is pushing the limits of what has been done before (and they are pushing limits of depth) they can be surprised by details that they haven't encountered before.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
gas/oil ratio units (Score:3, Informative)
By weight or volume?
It's by volume, in units of standard cubic feet [1] of produced gas per barrel [2] of oil produced (i.e. after the gas has escaped).
[1] "standard" meaning "at standard temperature and pressure"
[2] 1 barrel = 42 US gallons
Re:Spill baby spill! (Score:4, Interesting)
this is why I'm against sudden rapid expansions of industry into sensitive environmental areas.
Article says "Drillers have long been wary of methane hydrates because they can pack a powerful punch. One liter of water ice that has trapped individual methane molecules in the "cages" of its crystal structure can release 168 liters of methane gas when the ice decomposes."
Doesn't exactly sound like this was a new and unforseen problem, it doesn't sound like this happened because we were being hasty.
But it does sound like a sudden rapid expansion. And it sure does sound that the problem was hastily ignored, because preventing it simply cost too much money.
The good news is that there will be a charity concert in New Orleans, so BP won't have to pay so much money to their victims.
compensation for vicrims (Score:5, Informative)
The good news is that there will be a charity concert in New Orleans, so BP won't have to pay so much money to their victims.
If it ends up like Vladez oil spill BP won't have to pay anything. More than 20 years later the fish [cnn.com] have not recovered and the fishermen have not been compensated. Heck, oil still persists [adn.com], is still found. Large corporations laugh while going to the bank to make another deposit while the people pay.
Falcon
Re:compensation for vicrims (Score:5, Insightful)
The compensatory damages, that Exxon is on the hook for, exceed half a billion dollars [csmonitor.com]. That's in addition to their spending on the actual clean-up...
The Supreme Court (in a 5-to-3 vote, with your beloved David Souter writing for the majority) did remove the punitive $2.5 billion as "excessive"... But the compensatory $507 million were left standing... Yes, it took much too long. Maybe, if the plaintiffs weren't greedy (greed is only good, when you are making something, that other people want), they would've gotten their compensation 20 years earlier...
"The people" (including The Children[TM]) also use the oil. Every day... We can't do anything without it.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Spill baby spill! (Score:5, Interesting)
The "kicks" he's talking about are pressure surges from gas in the well, so everybody knew what the well was doing because it was kicking all the way down, so no surprises there. The well was drilled, Halliburton was contracted to cement the casing which was done and tested and they were pumping out the mud from the riser pipe and filling it with seawater when the explosion occurred. The riser pipes is rated for 15,000 PSI and have a 3.5 million pound load-carrying capacity, between these riser pipes and the blowout preventer is a connector device rated for 7 million foot-pounds of bending load capacity. Right now this riser pipe comes out of the well head goes up 1500 feet and is bent over and the free end is now buried in the seabed. I don't see where they were cutting costs too much. Deepwater Horizon would probably have disconnected from the well and moved on in a day or two if there hadn't been an explosion.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Our options are as follows:
1) Continue drilling and have an accident every few decades
2) Switch to wind/solar with all-electric vehicles immediately and pay about 5000% of world GDP in the next 10 years doing it and 3 - 5x current energy prices thereafter
3) Switch to an all-Amish life
4) Work on a gradual transition to cleaner and more sustainable energy sources by continuing to utilize what we have and what works while developing new stuff that actually works
You seem to be advocating options 2 or 3. Some pe
Re:Spill baby spill! (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is that #4 is ofter #1 in disguise, i.e. nothing much happens to make the transition. And no one is really advocating #2 or #3, they're just used as the bogeyman by the people trying to stop the real #4.
Re:Spill baby spill! (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem is that #4 is ofter #1 in disguise
You deserve every mod point I have. People are instinctively reacting to the news of the disaster. They do this all the time. OOOHH there's a spill leaking out huge amounts of oil, EVIL oil companies, BAD oil companies, this would NEVER happen if we would just all switch over to alternative energy sources.
I have seen the Exxon Valdez quoted time and time again in comments here on slashdot. All I can say is wake up and expand your horizons people. Look outside the oil industry. If you want to judge human progress look at all major accidents. No one wanted to make Chernobyl melt. No one wanted to cause problems at 3-mile island. Yet while driving home from work in a Ford F250 drinking water from plastic bottles people are muttering about the evil oil companies, whereas the simple fact is as human technology evolves there will be accidents, there will be situations that have not yet been encountered before, and there WILL be dire consequences.
Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this is the last accident we'll ever see. Maybe there will be no more death from mining, maybe environmental destruction from bitumen mining in Canada (honestly this puts the BP spill to shame except that it comes with a government granted licence) will stop tomorrow. ...
A far more likely scenario is that in 50 years when the world is running of clean efficient fusion power there will be an industrial accident that will remove a small country from the world maps, and then here on slashdot with it's shiny new web 5.0 interface we can discuss how it's unsafe and we should be moving to a new source of energy.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You couldn't stop #4 from happening if you wanted to.
Re: (Score:3)
You forgot
5) Invest in a comprehensive expansion of nuclear power, electric
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Sorry, but windmills require maintenance. It's not "all gravy" once you get the mill built.
It *IS* true that with well designed equipment the maintenance costs are lower than with oil...but they need to be, because there are other costs. Specifically line ballasts to handle the periods when the wind isn't blowing and the sun isn't shining. That basically means that you need to store about two weeks usage at the rate if usage of the coldest (or hottest) part of the year. Even that's cutting your margins
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It could also be that it's simply impossible to eliminate the risk completely. While I doubt that the oil companies are concerned about the environment, I also find it unlikely that they want to waste valuable oil by spilling it into the ocean,
interestingly, themselves sometimes touted (Score:5, Interesting)
Since these methane hydrates contain a significant amount of methane (i.e. natural gas), in the years since it was discovered that there are large deposits of them, they've periodically been touted as something we should actively drill for, as e.g. in this 1997 PopSci article [google.com].
Re:interestingly, themselves sometimes touted (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:interestingly, themselves sometimes touted (Score:5, Interesting)
If it's methane gas that will otherwise be freed to the atmosphere, it's much better to burn that for fuel than to free it and drill for oil under it. Methane is a much more powerful greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide, by about 80 times.
Re:interestingly, themselves sometimes touted (Score:5, Informative)
ya know, I hear this all the time but no-one ever provides a citation. Do you have a citation? (don't go look one up, you said it with such authority, you should have one already).
I don't know if you are trying to be funny or if you are just too lazy or stupid to google it yourself. Either way, I took the liberty of doing it for you. I typed in "Methane greenhouse gas" (no quotes) in the google box and pressed enter. The first link [epa.gov], first paragraph showed me this:
Methane
Methane (CH4) is a greenhouse gas that remains in the atmosphere for approximately 9-15 years. Methane is over 20 times more effective in trapping heat in the atmosphere than carbon dioxide (CO2) over a 100-year period and is emitted from a variety of natural and human-influenced sources.
From now on, I expect you to be a big boy and find your own citation.
Seriously, if you were trying to be funny, then I guess the joke's on me because I don't get it. I'll be an optimist and hope that a Slash reader and contributer would know better. Allow me to "woosh" myself in the hope that it truly was a joke.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I would like to point out 2 things.
First of all, 20x more effective at trapping heat is very different from the 80x more powerful than the GP quoted.
Second of all, the half life of CO2 is ~38 years, which is several times longer than methane. So, although methane traps more heat while it is in the atmosphere, it does not stay in the atmosphere near as long.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, 'cause artificially limiting the use of available energy sources while not providing any viable alternatives won't deepen the energy crisis.
We need innovative people to come up with viable alternatives, not endlessly complain about the impacts of available options. If someone actually comes up with a feasible, scalable alternative to fossil fuels, the switch to using that idea would just take care of itself due to market forces. The ugly truth is - there's currently no real alternative to switch to
Alternative sources could compete (Score:5, Insightful)
... if 1) we didn't massively subsidize the use of fossil fuels, and 2) the price of various forms of environmental devastation wasn't treated as an externality. Consider that the continental shelf is the property of the US government, and we have been and continue to lease the mineral rights to BP, et al, for way below market rates. And that we provide massive security services to various oil companies in the form of huge military commitments in the Middle East. And we provide an enormous interstate highway system, the cost of which is only partly offset by user fees such as tolls and gas taxes.
Also, consider that fossil fuel extractors and consumers are essentially paying nothing for the privilege of dumping huge amounts of greenhouse gases and other pollutants into the atmosphere, even though everyone is paying the cost in the form of climate disturbances, poor air quality, etc. And that when these major spills happen, the companies involved generally get off without paying significant damages (note that after years of litigation, Exxon ended up paying a tiny fraction of the total estimated damages from the Exxon Valdez spill - local fishing and tourism industries were left holding the bag).
Greener alternatives such as wind and solar could compete, if the true costs of fossil fuels were paid at the pump. But they're not.
Re:Alternative sources could compete (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Alternative sources could compete (Score:5, Insightful)
To badly paraphrase Noam Chomsky, capitalists are actually big fans of socialism. They love the idea of socializing harm ... it's the profits they don't like sharing.
No, that's neither capitalists nor free market supporters. What those are are corporatists [wikipedia.org] or Fascists [wikipedia.org].
Falcon
Re:interestingly, themselves sometimes touted (Score:5, Informative)
If someone actually comes up with a feasible, scalable alternative to fossil fuels, the switch to using that idea would just take care of itself due to market forces.
Only if that were true, but it's not. Those who use fossil fuels get to pass on the external costs to others. One way to make polluters pay is by taxing carbon. But of course some complain that that harms businesses or people. Are you one of them?
And that's only half of it. Fossil fuel supporters complain about how alternative energy sources get subsidies. Well, guess what? So do fossil fuels. Here's Rep. Edward Markey (D-MA) bragging about how his bill 'Has Huge Subsidies For Clean Coal! Huge!' [youtube.com]. He starts by saying the Nuclear Power industry has received $145 Billion in federal subsides over the years. But combined solar and wind have only gotten $5 billion. In another video the CEO of Chevron agrees to lobby with Sierra Club to end coal subsidies [grist.org]. Those subsidies for nuclear power above? The Freemarket CATO institute reprinted a "Forbes" article printed on 26 November 2007 about how the Nulear Power Industry is Hooked on Subsidies [cato.org]. Among other things it says "How do France (and India, China and Russia) build cost-effective nuclear power plants? They don't. Governmental officials in those countries, not private investors, decide what is built. Nuclear power appeals to state planners, not market actors." In 2007 [treehugger.com] in the US all alternative energy sources including the $3.0 Billion corn based ethanol got, when corn is not a good feedstock for ethanol, got $4.875 Billion dollars. Subtract that $3 Billion and geothermal, solar, wind, and others only got $1.875 Billion. Coal got $3.760 Billion. Itself, oil [issues.org] has gotten the majority of federal energy incentives.
What is happening is the government and not a free market is picking winners and losers. The government should end all subsidies, including allowing industries to pass external costs to others, and let the different players compeat.
Falcon
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Since these methane hydrates contain a significant amount of methane (i.e. natural gas), in the years since it was discovered that there are large deposits of them
The article says 168 liters of methane from 1 liter of methane hydrates... I have no idea how much methane hydrates would be released, or how much methane would have to be released before it became an issue, but that sounds like a lot of methane and I've heard methane is quite a bit better at soaking up heat from solar rays than carbon dioxide.
So, is that a concern, or would that just be a small drop in the bucket?
Clathrates == Oceanic farts: smelly and too warm (Score:3, Informative)
Read up on the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum [wikipedia.org]. The whole world was so warm, there was basically no ice anywhere on the surface (maybe some at extreme depths), and the Arctic Ocean was warm enough for alligators. One theory [wikipedia.org] for why temperatures spiked so high has to do with a runaway positive feedback loop, where rising temperatures cause clathrates to melt out, which causes more heating.
So no, not just a drop in the bucket.
Cheers,
Re: (Score:2)
That was before the global warming hysteria started. Now any discussion of peak oil is irrelevant unless it is being used as justification for switching to more environmentally friendly power sources (or as just a reason why we should all go live in trees). There was a time when peak oil was an economic argument, but now it is firmly a doom-and-gloom, we're-killing-the-earth argument.
energy (Score:3, Informative)
For Pete's sake, the guy was saying we should stop oil production to force people to use non-existent renewable energy.
Ever hear of geothermal? Solar? Wind? They all exist. And if they were given as much in subsidies as coal [grist.org], nuclear power [youtube.com], and petroleum [issues.org] they would be producing a lot more energy.
Falcon
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
For Pete's sake, the guy was saying we should stop oil production to force people to use non-existent renewable energy.
Ever hear of geothermal? Solar? Wind? They all exist. And if they were given as much in subsidies as coal [grist.org], nuclear power [youtube.com], and petroleum [issues.org] they would be producing a lot more energy.
Falcon
Um... no. No they would not.
Geothermal, while prevalent in some parts of the world, is not that big of a resource here. And most of the places where geothermal is available are national parks. Could you imagine the uproar if you tried to build a power plant at Yellowstone?
Solar is nowhere near efficient enough to power the country. It can be a nice boost, hardly economic, and government subsidies are not enough to help. For starters, government subsidies exist [examiner.com]. There are also several tax breaks you ca
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, since hippies hate nuclear (because of a very small chance of a meltdown), wind (because it kills birds), hydroelectric (because it interferes with fish), solar (because it's ugly/turtles/godknowswhy), coal (because it's dirty), oil (because it's dirty), gas (because it's dirty), geothermal (because it requires you to dig holes), and even wood (because you have to cut trees and make smoke), why don't we just cut the middle men and burn hippies for power?
Your ideas fascinate me. Where can I sign up for your newsletter?
Actually, I think the goal is not saving the earth, turtles or fishes. I believe that they hate the fact that someone, somewhere is using more than someone else. Actually, it's not even the fact that someone has more than someone else so much as it is the fact that someone has more than they do. If they can drive all of mankind back to caves and trees, we'll all be equal. It doesn't matter if we are all equally impoverished and equally mi
Re:peak oil (Score:4, Informative)
Siiiigghhh.. fish farming.. you know, as opposed to getting in your boat and going out to fish in the ocean then being surprised when one day there's no fish?
Oh that's what you mean? Like farmed fish don't need to be fed and don't know massive amounts of antibiotics. Except they do. Farmed fish requires vast amounts of wild caught fish to feed. Daniel Pauly [time.com] "a professor of fisheries science at the University of British Columbia, has calculated that it takes 2 to 5 lbs. of anchovies, sardines, menhaden and the other oily fish that comprise fish meal to produce 1 lb. of farmed salmon". Because they are packed into small areas they also need those antibiotics [bellona.org], which end up in the ocean leading to antibiotic resistance. Fish farms also create dead zones [stanfordalumni.org].
Still think fish farming is the answer?
Falcon
Farther offshore? (Score:2)
"would have to tread even more lightly as it pushes farther and farther offshore in search of energy"
Is there a correlation between the amount of methane hydrates and the distance from shore?
Re:Farther offshore? (Score:5, Informative)
Depth, pressure.
Re:Farther offshore? (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
It's related to the decline in pirates. Pirates produce methane, and that is processed by midgets to make the methane ice to feed the sharks. Thus completing the great circle of life, as dictated by his noodliness.
Ramen
Re:Farther offshore? (Score:5, Informative)
Is there a correlation between the amount of methane hydrates and the distance from shore?
The correlation is between distance from shore and depth + temperature.
Here's some nice graphs showing depth vs temperature for methane hydrates [doe.gov]
And here's a picture of seafloor depths for context [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Whats needed is a fully submersible drilling platform. Fortunately Ed Harris is still available.
Re: (Score:2, Offtopic)
Sweet. Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio has a nice rack. Didn't they make a movie about that once that happened to take place underwater? ;)
Arctic? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Arctic? (Score:5, Informative)
This doesn't really answer why it's not a problem in Alaska, but the temperatures aren't actually much different. Alaskan offshore drilling is in relatively shallow water, which at those latitudes is somewhere in the low single digits C once you get below the ice pack; while this operation in the Gulf was at about 1700 meters depth, where the temperatures are also in the low single digits C. (There's lots of complicating factors, but this graph [blogspot.com] of depth v. temperature for three different latitudes gives an idea.) There's differences in pressure, which might matter, but also big differences in geology.
Re:Arctic? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I've been wondering how warm oil is coming out of ground. Surely the oil coming out from such deep depths and with all the friction from the sand it carries along the way, the oil should be pretty hot.
Re:Arctic? (Score:5, Informative)
I wonder how they've avoided the problems up around Alaska or other places where it's actually cold enough for there to be ice - much less methane trapping ice.
I'm a gas field operator in Alberta, and hydrates can be a massive problem, especially when the wells are not big enough to justify dehydrating the gas at the well site and has to flow to a central facility. Since I operate a sour gas field (contains hydrogen sulfide) the problem is even worse. At our normal field pressures the gas starts to hydrate at around 20 C (68 F) if we are not taking extra steps to control it. It is one of the biggest causes of equipment damage and injuries/deaths. I have never operated oil wells so I am not knowledgeable about how they effect production of oil, but I have read about deaths due to mishandling hydrates at the wellhead of oil wells in Alberta and BC. To reduce the rate that they form, we inject chemicals such as methanol into the gas, and have line heaters at regular intervals along the pipeline. They are a regular problem and danger.
Re: (Score:2)
You misread my post... ;-)
oil leaks aren't natural? (Score:3, Interesting)
Don't cha just gotta wonder with ocean floor earthquakes why we havn't have more natural oil spills in the ocean?
Re:oil leaks aren't natural? (Score:5, Informative)
Of course we do. The Gulf is said to leak 2000 barrels a day naturally.
Some natural leaks in the gulf of California are even bigger.
Re:oil leaks aren't natural? (Score:4, Informative)
The California seafloor leaks are much larger. I don't think they know exactly how much, but this source [isa.org] quotes "8-80 Exxon Valdez spills", I would guess they mean annually. That's somewhere between 86.4 and 864 million gallons.
Article says 7665 gal/day. (Score:5, Interesting)
The California seafloor leaks are much larger. I don't think they know exactly how much, but this source quotes "8-80 Exxon Valdez spills", I would guess they mean annually. That's somewhere between 86.4 and 864 million gallons.
They're talking about the total volume of oil residue contained in the down-stream sediments in the seabed, deposited over an unknown period of time. And it seems like they're talking equivalent pre-biodegraded volume, but I'm not sure.
The statement about the rate of seepage was slightly further down:
There is an oil spill everyday at Coal Oil Point (COP), the natural seeps off Santa Barbara, where 20-25 tons of oil have leaked from the seafloor each day for the last several hundred thousand years.
25 tons/day * 7.3 bbl/ton * 42 gal/bbl = 7665 gallons/day.
That's tiny compared to this spill at 200,000 gal/day.
Re: (Score:2)
earthquake question indeed asked before (Score:2)
http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1639434&cid=32078300 [slashdot.org]
Whether or not the answer is any good is another matter entirely - I wouldn't know.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:oil leaks aren't natural? (Score:4, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:probably a bit ignorant here (Score:5, Insightful)
Uh, dude, look around you. 99.99% of everything you eat, own, use, buy, throw away or want is brought to you by oil. *Nothing* matches it for chemical versatility, nothing else even comes close to the energy density of oil.
It's one of our very few true energy sources. There is also hydro-electricity, nuclear electricity, and coal/gas electricity. Everything else is farts.
You can't run our civilization on electricity alone. All air traffic would immediately and forever stop. Car traffic would essentially disappear. You'll go back to wooden sail ships (how are you gonna mine, refine and transform metal without oil? With coal? Good luck with that, *no one* is gonna want that in their backyard, except poor countries...)
Food production depends on oil for everything. Fertilizers, harvesting, transportation, transformation and your drive to the supermarket. All oil.
Your job, your house in the suburbs, your car? Oil.
You want to know what your kids should learn?
How to raise, breed and ride horses.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Step 1: Use your diesel tractor to plow a field and plant some hay.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You are not very imaginative. You can run on electricity alone, you use that to make whatever hydrocarbons you want.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You can run on electricity alone, you use that to make whatever hydrocarbons you want.
Sure. Of course the only carbon free electrical source that can scale like that is nuclear....
Re: (Score:2)
I'd lay odds that orbital solar can bring down a hell of a lot more energy with a lot less mess and risk than nuclear.
Re: (Score:2)
So use it. I fully support Wind, Solar, Tidal and clean nukes. By clean nukes I mean ones good at breeding fuel, so the waste ratio is lower.
Re: (Score:2)
I own no SUV nor home in the burbs, oh trollish one.
I support any and all non-fossil fuel based energy solutions. The reality is this problem will be solved, once the price of oil is high enough alternatives start to look very attractive.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:probably a bit ignorant here (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
The amazing thing is, if we allowed ocean drilling much closer to shore we wouldn't have these problems.
From what I've read, BP or one of their partners were to blame, this could have been avoided where it was, but corners were cut, regulations were eased, etc. I'm not convinced the way to prevent these things is to let those same idiots drill closer to the shore. I think the way to prevent these things is to not have idiots drilling anywhere.
ironically, it is the wacko environmentalists that are to blame for this situation
You have some odd views there. Environmentalists don't want drilling -anywhere-. They're not to blame.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:probably a bit ignorant here (Score:4, Interesting)
And, more importantly, why do we want to make drilling off the cost of Florida legal?
I'll tell you why: it's the same reason we aren't all driving electric cars. Because the oil industry, by hook and crook, has done everything it can to make damned sure we're totally dependent on them for our transportation needs, such as buying up all the patents to make sure NIMH and Li-Ion batteries couldn't be used in cars, lobbying hard against ZEV-promoting initiatives, etc. See Who Killed the Electric Car? [wikipedia.org].
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Cobasys is no longer controlled by Chevron (it is jointly owned by Samsung and Bosch):
http://www.cobasys.com/investors/ [cobasys.com]
They will sell you nimh battery packs:
http://www.cobasys.com/products/transportation.shtml [cobasys.com]
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Oil companies are out there to make money. If you had offered Chevron a high enough price, they probably would have designed and developed batteries for you. And sold them to you. It is not Chevron's fault that a gallon of gasoline is worth 55 man hours of manual labor in terms of energy, and so way less expensive than your batteries.
Notice how IBM decided to start supporting Linux, despite the fact that it is a competitor to what was then their core products. They would rather cash in on their competit
Re:probably a bit ignorant here (Score:5, Informative)
Oil is really valuable, so there's a very high bar for the monetary cost of disaster to be not worth it, on a purely profits-vs-cleanup-costs basis.
Some back-of-the-envelope estimates. Say this disaster ends up costing BP $10 billion. Say that any given rig has a 1% chance of causing a disaster of that magnitude. So we assign a $100 million amortized cost per rig, to cover the "chance this rig will catastrophically blow up". Is it still worth drilling in that case? Well, it actually barely changes the economics at all: these deep-water wells cost about $500-600 million to drill and put into production to begin with. So add to $100m to that and total costs are basically still on the same order of magnitude.
In particular, these rigs can produce a lot of oil. BP's Thunder Horse rig in the gulf produces 250,000 barrels per day. Even if they make only $10/barrel operating profit (probably a low estimate), that's $2.5m per day in profits from the well, i.e. almost a billion dollars per year. Unless fully 10% of such wells incur $10b catastrophic cleanup costs every year, BP comes out ahead.
Re:probably a bit ignorant here (Score:5, Insightful)
Finally someone who sees the numbers for what they are.
I keep saying that BP laughs all the way to the bank.
What they are doing right now with the dome and booms is just PR stalling. They know full well that drilling the relief is the only way to fix the problem, but the public would go apeshit if they "did nothing" for 3 months. Of course the fact that they are in fact, umm, drilling the relief well is quickly lost on mostly everyone.
The best thing we can do is buy up as much of their stock as we can. That way we can partake in their profits!
Re:probably a bit ignorant here (Score:4, Insightful)
I think making them pay the actual total cost of cleanup might be a better solution. By that I mean they must clean every grain of sand that oil touched, if this bankrupts them good.
Only higher oil costs will move us to better fuels.
Re:probably a bit ignorant here (Score:5, Informative)
I think making them pay the actual total cost of cleanup might be a better solution.
Unfortunately, their liability was limited to $75M under the 1990 Oil Pollution Act [epa.gov]. Of course, wanting to close the barn door after the horse has burned it down, the White House now wants to increase that to $10B [al.com], a figure slightly more in line with something that would make an oil company slow down and think about how shoddily their operations are being run [salon.com].
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BP has made a lot of noise about how they've paid more than that already, $300 mil+ I remember reading.
But speaking of closing the barn door, if that sounds like it's just PR, well the PR loss of having this spill go on right as they're talking about expanding off-shore drilling is costing them a lot more money than they're worried about spending on cleanup. Higher liability for this spill means little compared to losing out on profits from a bunch of future wells. Even if they're only delayed.
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In a few years?
So how many tourist dollars is that?
How many fishing dollars?
What about the cost to the environment?
I think they are lucky more folks are not calling for criminal prosecution.
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When industry polices itself... (Score:2)
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Think of it this way: does one major disaster every thirty years (if you take Exxon Valdez plus BP Deepwater Horizon and extrapolate) outweigh thirty years of economic growth made possible by cheap energy? Considering the sheer quan
Re:When industry polices itself... (Score:4, Insightful)
Better Article (Score:5, Informative)
This one has more detail [myway.com], and is actually really-well written. Really, an AP story with some investigative journalism. Kudos, guy, you're making your co-workers look bad. :)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I agree. That was the best story of dozens that I read on the entire subject.
There were 2 reasons for that: (1) Schwartz and Weber interviewed Robert Bea http://www.ce.berkeley.edu/~bea/ [berkeley.edu] and (2) They were smart enough to understand what Bea was talking about.
The reason Bea is so brilliant is that (1) He understands the technology thoroughly and (2) He concentrates on the question of why engineers don't do what they know they have to do in order to prevent accidents. Bea does for civil engineering what Feynm
It's the BP spill, not Gulf spill. (Score:2)
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Well, it looks like the crew doing the cementing was from Haliburton, so can we call it the Haliburton Spill?
Re:It's the BP spill, not Gulf spill. (Score:5, Informative)
And what if it turns out that, in fact, BP broke no regulations, bent no rules and this was simply something that nobody could have for-seen and no safety equipment on the planet could have withstood the pressure released from below the earth's surface? Would it be the Mother Nature spill?
Also, I don't think a lot of you appreciate the safety culture in an offshore environment for American companies. Safety is number one. Nobody wants to die on the job, nobody wants their actions to cause somebody else's death and no company wants to tell someody's loved one they died on the job. Safety is a very serious thing offshore - for employees and employers. Following procedures, regulations, safety protocols is paramount to everything else.
Re:It's the BP spill, not Gulf spill. (Score:5, Insightful)
I worry about permanently assigning blame only once those responsible decide they're going to do nothing (or next to nothing) ala Exxon Valdez. Accidents happen, and unless BP acted in gross negligence, and unless they don't put much effort in to fixing the problem, I won't be worried about permanently affixing their name to it.
But ymmv, I'm not your spiritual leader.
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You mean how BP acted during Exxon Valdez? And here again?
During Exxon Valdez they lied about cleanup equipment and personnel being available, this time they neglected to use safety equipment other governments would have required.
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BP is responsible they hired these assholes. You can't push it off on a contractor. Like it or not, their oil is leaking onto someones land, BP's problem to fix.
So does this mean......... (Score:2)
That they are treading on thin ice?
This may be secondary (Score:2)
To me, the underlying cause is that some disconnected individuals in a power hierarchy are taking irresponsible risks playing Russian Roulette with our environment.
Details on this and against it can be easily researched. If one takes a more distant perspective, it may become more clear - or not - who cares at the moment?
ExxonMobile doing great (Score:5, Insightful)
Sadly, BP should hope that things work out for it the way things worked out for ExxonMobile after the catastrophe of the Exxon Valdez.
Exxon had a drunk for a captain who crashed a poorly designed oil tanker causing one of the worst environmental disasters in history. The region's environment still has not recovered two decades later. But ExxonMobile sure has! ExxonMobile is the most profitable company in the world. From 2005-2009 the annual profit for ExxonMobile averaged $36 Billion!
The US Supreme Court was also generous enough a few years ago to reduce the punitive damages award against ExxonMobile for the Valdez from an original jury amount of $5 Billion down to $500 Million (about five days worth of profits).