Giant Plumes of Oil Forming Below the Gulf's Surface 483
An anonymous reader sends in a NY Times article about the spread of oil from the BP gusher in the Gulf of Mexico. Quoting:
"Scientists are finding enormous oil plumes in the deep waters of the Gulf of Mexico, including one as large as 10 miles long, 3 miles wide, and 300 feet thick in spots. The discovery is fresh evidence that the leak from the broken undersea well could be substantially worse than estimates that the government and BP have given. ... The plumes are depleting the oxygen dissolved in the gulf, worrying scientists, who fear that the oxygen level could eventually fall so low as to kill off much of the sea life near the plumes. Dr. Joye said the oxygen had already dropped 30 percent near some of the plumes in the month that the broken oil well had been flowing. ... [Scientists on the Pelican mission] suspect the heavy use of chemical dispersants, which BP has injected into the stream of oil emerging from the well, may have broken the oil up into droplets too small to rise rapidly. ... Dr. Joye said the findings about declining oxygen levels were especially worrisome, since oxygen is so slow to move from the surface of the ocean to the bottom. She suspects that oil-eating bacteria are consuming the oxygen at a feverish clip as they work to break down the plumes."
Re:Worst Catastrophe In History (Score:1, Insightful)
has slashdot really sunk so low that halfassedly regurgitating a handful of quotes from the article with zero insight or original text of any kind gets you a +3 informative?
Re:Where's Sarah Palin (Score:4, Insightful)
The insistence of the political mainstream to stick to slogans is so backwards... This includes both the conservatives and liberals.
... Hear no evil. See no evil. (Score:5, Insightful)
The government has "top men" working on this. Who? "Top men" [wikipedia.org].
Besides, it's silly to think there could be oil elsewhere than the surface.
Yes, there's no value (to us) in trying to determine exactly how badly we've screwed things... It's not like a better estimate would be useful in calculating a level of effort for the cleanup, possibly quantity of cleanup materials, or potential ocean chemistry changes.
Re:i LOL (Score:4, Insightful)
Think of it like a milkshake. (Score:3, Insightful)
All we need to do is drink the milkshake.
Re:Where's Sarah Palin (Score:3, Insightful)
So, you're saying that because a company got greedy, wasn't regulated well enough, and fucked something up, that means we should stop doing it? Wow, that's rational. So I guess if I fall down the stairs today everyone should stop using stairs? Yeah, we as a society should be hellbent on renewable energy and kicking the oil addiction, but in the meantime, I'd prefer to drill locally instead of bleeding out money in the form of foreign oil imports. Really, are you making the argument that because things can go wrong they shouldn't be done under proper regulation, or are you being irrational to accuse Palin of being stupid? So yeah, I'll say it: drill baby drill...along with the less popular 'regulate baby regulate' and 'research baby research'.
Re:i LOL (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually BP no longer stands for British Petroleum officially, but meh.. No large company is anchored too heavily to its country of origin.
Re:Where's Sarah Palin (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:... Hear no evil. See no evil. (Score:5, Insightful)
Hmm, given that
1. BP used an inapplicable methodology for initial flow rate estimates
2. BP is injecting tons of dispersants at depth (so the oil will not reach the surface for years)
3. BP denied access to scientists wanting to do flow measurements,
I'm guessing BP knows they are closer to 50Kbbl/day than 5Kbbl/day.
Re:so? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So, if we wern't drilling for oil... (Score:5, Insightful)
If humans never (or, say before humans did so) drilled for oil, wouldn't the oil still be there, and occasionally be released by events such as earthquakes?
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601072&sid=aUqFB_GbhRYM [bloomberg.com]
Haiti's 7.0 earthquake "may have cracked rock formations along the fault, allowing gas or oil to temporarily seep toward the surface, [Stephen Pierce, a geologist] said yesterday in a telephone interview."
What earthquakes do not do is drill a hole 18,000 feet deep.
Re:So if... (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh, so you have an economical, reliable method for:
* pumping millions of tons of oxygen
* almost a mile below the ocean's surface
* and dissolving it in trillions of gallons of water
Goddamn armchair engineers... Seriously, you're about as divorced from reality as BP's PR team.
Re:So, if we wern't drilling for oil... (Score:5, Insightful)
The disasters would happen, but they wouldn't all happen in the same century.
Re:So, if we wern't drilling for oil... (Score:3, Insightful)
Who said anything about the dinosaurs adapting? The *Earth* adapted.
Re:Worst Catastrophe In History (Score:1, Insightful)
If Americans are so evil, why did you come here?
Re:... Hear no evil. See no evil. (Score:5, Insightful)
See, you don't know what you are talking about. Public resources are public and thus under the public protection, otherwise any asshole would be 'sending a robot' to drill on the ocean floor for a common resource. Of-course today the Government is bought by corporations, including the oil companies, so they get easy and basically free access to mine those public resources without giving back much of anything and thus gaining unimaginable profits.
Re:Nuke the F-ING thing. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Help me understand oil dispersants (Score:1, Insightful)
Exactly what I was wondering.
Why doesn't some government official step in and say, 'look, idiots, get off your asses and find out exactly how much oil is pouring out of there'. Where's the outrage? Where's the talk of 'millions in fines per day? Why is this all being basically looked past and swept under the rug?
I suspect this thing will be shooting oil until the reservoir it is coming out of goes dry, My guess is 5-7 years before it stops on its own, or gets to a manageable PSI.
Re:i LOL (Score:0, Insightful)
No they merged with Amoco: AMerican Oil COmpany.
And the funny thing ? they made something like 3billions in benefit since 2009.
And the sea is far more overfished now (Score:1, Insightful)
And the sea is far more overfished now. A cold when you're healthy is shrugged off. A cold when you're already starving and hypothermic will kill you.
In 1979 Newfoundland was still a massive fish nursery. The ocean flow past there comes from the Gulf.
And the fish there are already in far far greater trouble: http://archive.greenpeace.org/comms/cbio/cancod.html
Re:so? (Score:5, Insightful)
Protons are protons you fucking idiot yes the sun radiates nuclear radiation
Re:Nuke the F-ING thing. (Score:3, Insightful)
It isn't as bad as the Ixtoc I [wikipedia.org] spill that went on for 9 months and didn't kill the gulf. That was 30,000 barrels per day for 9 months.
Maybe you aren't keeping up with the news - current estimates based on actual observations of the oil flowing out of the hole is 50,000 barrels a day, making it worse than Ixtoc 1's peak flow rate (the number you gave). But Ixtoc 1 "only" released a total of 3 million barrels over those 9 months, an average flow rate more like 10,000 barrels a day.
Deep Horizon looks like it will only take 60 days to break the world record for an accidental oil spill, and we are now in day 30, with no estimate of when it is likely to be shut down (though that relief well, touted to be the real fix will take at least 3 months).
Re:Help me understand oil dispersants (Score:5, Insightful)
What you fail to take into account is that natural seepage and massive release are on such opposite sides of the spectrum that "it happens naturally" is not going to make anyone but yourself feel better about this spill.
Happens naturally: a woman's period.
Massive release: getting shot.
Get the point now?
Re:Some Good News (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh, thank goodness. They found a method of containing the leak that actually allows them to continue collecting the oil.
I was very worried that all the precious oil might just go to waste.
Re:Man! (Score:5, Insightful)
With the exception of the occasional mulishly idealistic college student, most people don't take long to stop caring much about things over which they have absolutely no power.
Re:We should call BP big polluter now! (Score:5, Insightful)
He also was the prime recipient of millions of dollars from BP. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0510/36783.html [politico.com] The pattern is more than a bit disturbing.
By millions you mean $71,051. Frankly, the 3.5 million dollars over 20 years BP has spend is peanuts, and only make it to 106 on the Heavy Hitters List [opensecrets.org]. But it is unusual that he appears on the top of the list of recipients of BP as well as #2 of the Exxon list, when both companies favour Republicans. But then, even combined they wouldn't be among Obama's Top Contributors [opensecrets.org]
Re:Help me understand oil dispersants (Score:3, Insightful)
They are quite good for keeping the oil where it won't show up on satellite/aircraft photos, and possibly off the beaches where the press would otherwise have a field day taking pictures of oil-soaked baby animals; but they aren't something you do because you care about the marine ecosystem.
Re:So, if we wern't drilling for oil... (Score:1, Insightful)
Yep oil would be released by other natural events and mother nature would deal with it in time. But, now we have humans with an interest - both commercial and aesthetic - in that area it now becomes a real issue.
Re:So, if we wern't drilling for oil... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:i LOL (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a publicly traded multinational corporation. The world's fourth largest, in fact. I think it's pretty much transcended nationality. The CEO is Swedish, FWIW.
Re:Help me understand oil dispersants (Score:3, Insightful)
Why do we let them control this?
Because if we don't they can blame any further failures on somebody else.
Re:Where's Sarah Palin (Score:5, Insightful)
There is no "extreme left" in the US just like there is no "Left", "Right", "Extreme Right", or "Central".
All of these terms are made up to make us think that we still have a choice. To make us think that this isn't for all intents and purposes a one party system.
Re:Help me understand oil dispersants (Score:4, Insightful)
Millions of gallons of oil leach into the Gulf every year through natural processes.
Really? Does that happen all in one spot, just off the coast of Louisiana over a short period of time, or is it spread out over the entire Gulf of Mexico over an entire year?
but it also seldom gets mentioned by the 'any amount of oil is bad bad bad' crowd who seek to capitalize on the crisis.
Maybe it doesn't get mentioned because it's a really terrible comparison to what's actually happening? I'm really getting tired of this continuing trend among some people to merely assume everyone is as bad as everyone else, as if everyone in the world has some seedy angle. Child labor laws? That's just a product of people who want to "capitalize" on a less available labor such as Unions and the like. Public libraries? Pushed through by "big learning" and educational institutions so they can get people hooked on learning, and then will need higher education.
Not everything is a special interest. I object on a very basic level to your attempt to imagine some group of people and try to paint them as into a tiny, somehow relevant opinion. Who is this "any amount of oil is bad" crowd, and when did that one point become the over-riding opinion they hold? If they do indeed exist, do they really have any more relevance than the crazy guy down the street who worries about the government mind control rays?
Re:Help me understand oil dispersants (Score:3, Insightful)
Since the microorganisms use up oxygen to digest the oil the answer is yes and yes.
Re:Where's Sarah Palin (Score:4, Insightful)
You are almost right except this: No amount of Government intervention (regulation) can do anything about all possible ways someone may fuck up in all different companies in all different sectors of economy.
Have the Government do what it should do on behalf of the People: Sue the Shit out of BP, Halliburton and Transocean, get the damages, cleanup and x100 or x1000 liability as a way to scare the fuck of all the other companies who are pumping oil, gas, digging coal etc etc etc
Do this: destroy the fucking BP if necessary and also, screw the corporate protection, arrest the management, arrest whoever wasn't doing the job right and also put every single prick from MMS (that's the Government agency literally is fucking with the corporate whores, literally) to jail for 10 consecutive life sentences. Or shoot them Chinese style.
You have to do it. Have to distribute the punishment to the guilty and be consistent about it. That's the way to avoid the future 'calamities' like this one.
Re:Where's Sarah Palin (Score:1, Insightful)
So, you're saying that because a company got greedy, wasn't regulated well enough, and fucked something up, that means we should stop doing it? Wow, that's rational. So I guess if I fall down the stairs today everyone should stop using stairs?
If you falling down stairs involved not just hurting yourself but instead killed a dozen people, threatened the livelihoods of thousands of people and the environment of hundreds of miles of coastline then that is different. Your assertion implies that other oil companies apart from BP are less greedy, somehow exist under better regulation and make no mistakes and therefore should be allowed to drill seems a stretch.
The main discrepancy with those chanting 'drill-baby-drill' is that they do so in complete ignorance of the risks and dangers involved while at the same time bemoaning the scope and size of governmental regulation.
Re:Man! (Score:5, Insightful)
I find curious how apathetic people are these days.
It's like a toon character:
"Hey! Look! The Earth is being destroyed!"
"Yo, man! That sucks!"
Earth may be doomed, but is there hope for us?
We are basically bombarded with completely irrelevant bad news 24/7.
Turn on the TV or radio, fire up a web browser, pick up a newspaper... You'll read about some random person who got kidnapped on the other side of the planet. Or a nasty plane crash somewhere. Or a tsunami.
Yeah, it's sad that somebody is suffering somewhere... But it's really got absolutely no bearing on my life.
And then we're bombarded with big stuff that is relevant, but we can't do anything about it.
Things like the volcano in Iceland, or the oil spill in the gulf. Yeah, it affects me... But there's really nothing I can personally do about it. Maybe throw some money at it in the form of a donation or two... Which might help... But there's absolutely no immediate feedback that I'm doing something to alleviate the problem.
And then we're bombarded with random scary stuff that doesn't even necessarily have a basis in reality.
Somebody, somewhere said that they wanted to kill the President - so now we're at threat level plaid, be afraid! There's some random bowl game coming up and terrorists would love to blow it up, be afraid! Mashed potatoes cause Alzheimers, be afraid! Obamacare is going to destroy Social Security, be afraid!
Is it any wonder that we've learned to tune all that out and just keep chugging along in our day-to-day lives?
It's either that, or stop functioning entirely.
Re:Worst Catastrophe In History (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:i LOL (Score:4, Insightful)
"Previously known as Anglo-Iranian Oil Company," of Operation Ajax fame. The wikipedia has a decent article on Operation Ajax - maybe some people would like to look at it. The United States literally overthrew a legitimate government, for the sake of BP's profits. Not something that the UK or the US government readily admits to.
Re:Man! (Score:4, Insightful)
Lemme guess. You're still in school - or at least you're very recently graduated. I'm not apathetic, myself, but at age 54, I'm getting there. No matter how bad the news, how dire the warnings, or how hopeless the situation, EVERYONE AROUND ME is an apathetic jackass. Phht. There is no "mobilization". We'll just continue to swirl around and around, until we finally get sucked down the toilet, and find ourselves in the septic tank.
Even then - MOST PEOPLE JUST WON'T FUCKING CARE!
Re:you can do something (Score:5, Insightful)
But we can make BP wish they'd never been so reckless, and give pause to any company still cutting corners on the safety.
Can we really do that?
Stop driving gas guzzlers. Don't fill up at BP gas stations.
Haven't you heard? BP is now Beyond Petroleum. They, as well as pretty much all the big oil companies, are diversifying. They're now energy companies. If we don't buy their gasoline we'll be buying their electricity, or hydrogen, or whatever else.
Use other means of transport or propulsion.
Where I live, there's no public transportation.
Assuming there was public transportation... It'd still be running off some sort of energy, which would likely wind up lining some irresponsible corporation's pockets.
Fire off angry letters to Congress.
Except that this isn't just a national problem. These are international companies acting irresponsibly all over the world.
It may not sound like much, but enough people doing these things will hit them where they live.
Except that it probably won't.
These guys are hired to make the company money - nothing more. Nobody cares what kind of collateral damage there is. As long as the stockholders make money, they're happy.
And even if somebody actually gets fired over this... They've probably got plenty of money to tide themselves over until they get another job with another giant corporation that'll do exactly the same thing.
Hell... Absolute worst-case scenario they just re-brand themselves and pretend like the old corporation is dead while continuing to do business-as-usual under a new name.
Re:Worst Catastrophe In History (Score:3, Insightful)
Hah. Because in the 3rd world, American trash gets dumped right in your backyard, rather than down in Texas where nobody gives a shit. :-)
Hmmm... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:i LOL (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah - as someone who has been through 4 mergers, it's the "tow-mah-tow" to acquisition's "tow-may-tow". Probably there are differences in accounting and filings to regulatory agencies, but within each company, what ever name was kept was the winner.
Re:We should call BP big polluter now! (Score:4, Insightful)
But it is unusual that he appears on the top of the list of recipients of BP as well as #2 of the Exxon list, when both companies favour Republicans. But then, even combined they wouldn't be among Obama's Top Contributors [opensecrets.org]
I disagree, the large companies tend to back whomever is favored to win when they don't have a "preferred" (someone they have a relationship with) candidate. That should tell you something about the similarities of the politics between both major parties, as perceived by companies who can/do spend tens of millions analyzing politicians.
Re:i LOL (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Big Plug (Score:4, Insightful)
Because every figure he gave was wrong.
The casing pipe (the pipe you can see) is 21 inches in diameter, not 5 feet. The borehole (the hole that was actually drilled down to the reservoir, which you can't see) is 9 inches in diameter.
The pressure is easily calculated - 45 psi per 100 feet of water, and 100psi per 100 feet of sedimentary rock. 5,000 feet of water gives you 2250 psi, and 11,000 feet of rock give you 11,000psi. Total pressure on the reservoir is therefore 13,250psi, with the pressure differential between the two ends of the borehole at 11,000psi.
However, you can't just calculate that out with the density of crude oil to get the actual flow rate, and therefor the pressure, coming out of the pipe, because you don't know the gas to oil ratio of the oil or the porosity of the reservoir rock, which affect how fast the oil flows and how dense it is, which determines the force it exerts as it exits the pipe.
This is why I call bullshit on so called experts who claim to have calculated the flow accurately. Visual calculation methods cannot be made accurately because of the lack of information about the gas to oil ratio - one 50k-100k visual based estimate I read assumes a GOR of zero (no gas), which is absurd, the oil at 150 degrees (the temp of the oil in the reservoir) and 13,000+ psi can hold a crapload of gas in suspension, which could easily make the visual estimate off by 50% or more. This is because as the pressure drops on the way up the borehole, the gas comes out of suspension and expands, causing the flow to increase dramatically but the ratio of oil by volume to gas decreases dramatically as well. The result is what appears to be a massive gusher of an oil leak that is actually mostly gas.
Non-visual based calculations lack even more critical information about the composition of the oil that are necessary to make accurate calculations, like the porosity of the rock, the GOR again, and whether or not there are any obstructions that inhibit the flow.
Frankly I'm very skeptical of anything over 30,000 barrels a day, that's one hell of a high flowing oil well as it is. 50,000 barrels a day I'm extremely skeptical of, and I dismiss anything more than that out of hand as virtually impossible. Oil wells simply don't flow that fast.
Re:Help me understand oil dispersants (Score:1, Insightful)
That would put it on par with Ixtoc I, which went on for 9 months and didn't kill the gulf.
The irony is the oil spill won't kill nearly as much it otherwise would because a lot of the Gulf is already dead [carleton.edu].