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Firefox Internet Explorer News

Firefox May Soon Overtake IE In Europe 290

Posted by kdawson
from the pick-your-stats dept.
peterkern writes "The July browser market share reports are somewhat inconsistent, but if we believe StatCounter, then it looks like Firefox will be overtaking Microsoft IE's market share next month. The two browsers are both within 1 point of 40% market share, IE above and Firefox below. Europeans are more crazy about Firefox than Americans: In Germany, Firefox has a 61% market share, while IE has only 25%. Google Chrome is, according to StatCounter, now above 10%. ConceivablyTech has more details, including market share data from both StatCounter and Net Applications (which as of this month is limiting its free data)."
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Firefox May Soon Overtake IE In Europe

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  • by kiddygrinder (605598) on Tuesday August 03, 2010 @04:26AM (#33120972)
    as long as other browsers have a big enough market share that MS has to continue play nice and follow standards it's not even that important.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by xtracto (837672)

      I love it here in Europe, just the other day a colleague of mine surprised me by wanting to install Ubuntu.

      People here are less resistant to change and have a tiny bit more of patience to adapt to new things. They do not equate "new/unknown" with "crap" as other countries do.

      • by binkzz (779594)
        Unfortunately, here in Holland people are very resistant to change. Especially companies and corporations.

        Holland has long been a Microsoft beacon in Europe, and I personally dislike it a lot because the main reason people here use Windows for solutions is because "everyone uses it".
      • by orasio (188021)

        I love it here in Europe, just the other day a colleague of mine surprised me by wanting to install Ubuntu.

        People here are less resistant to change and have a tiny bit more of patience to adapt to new things. They do not equate "new/unknown" with "crap" as other countries do.

        Europe is not a country, yet.

        About your sig: Ubuntu actually means "I can't be bothered to configure Debian". Messing with Slackware was fun, but since I was going to let apt do all the hard work for me, Ubuntu seemed like the logical next step.

    • It is important that a bad browser has a big share : a whole ecosystem of ad-financed websites rely on people being unable to use adblock-like filters. The FOSS fan in me yays at firefox gaining more adherents but the cynical in me thinks that he may see more sites becoming less profitable.
      • by AlexiaDeath (1616055) on Tuesday August 03, 2010 @05:31AM (#33121226)
        Those sites should not make their ads annoying. Google text adds are fine most of the time, unless page has crapton of them. Discrete page fitting ads are fine as-well. But you cant really live without an ad blocker on today's web where certain ads scream at you and prevent you from focusing on the content. It's visual mostly, but some people still haven't gotten the memo about self playing voice adds being a bad thing...
      • by daem0n1x (748565)

        I don't give a fuck. I use adblock, of course, so the Internet looks completely different to me than it looks for everyone else.

        I hate ads and would be perfectly happy without them. I'm not in the business of providing revenue for websites. If there were more of me the current business model would disappear, but not the Internet. They would just find another business model.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Inconexo (1401585)

        Sites must find ways to profit. The mission of a browser (or any app) is providing the best user experience, and ad block is part of this. You cannot stop technology development and adoption just because some guys don't know how to make money.

      • Piss on them. I don't use an adblocker, I place em in my hosts file from my proxy server app called Cookie Cop. If they try to set a cookie and I don't need em, then I look into what site was trying to do that. If it's an advert or other garbage like intelitext, I block em permanently because I have no use for the idjits.

  • by water-and-sewer (612923) on Tuesday August 03, 2010 @04:34AM (#33121000) Homepage

    It's getting harder and harder for Steve Ballmer to point to his resume and be able to justify his work over the past decade. While Microsoft has pushed out upgrades to all its software, the big picture is gloomy enough to make him sweat at upcoming board meetings: total loss to the ipod in the music market, total catastrophe in Microsoft's internally-competing music formats and platforms (Plays for Sure?), impending catastrophe in smart phones as RIM, Apple, and now Android eat his lunch, and growing irrelevance of desktop office software. Yes, they skirted disaster with Vista and pushed out Windows 7 which is generally well liked. But Microsoft is slipping behind in key growth markets and lack of vision and leadership is a big part of that.

    If I were on the Board, I'd be telling Ballmer to go work on his golf game, and bring in new leadership. Microsoft has lots of talented developers and engineers. But upper management is sinking the ship.

    • by allcar (1111567) on Tuesday August 03, 2010 @04:47AM (#33121038)
      Add to this their lack of success in pushing into the Enterprise Server market. .NET never had the impact they hoped. J2EE is still king of the application servers. SQL Server has made very little impact on the DB market. Oracle is King there. Windows Server has made few dents in the domination of UNIX. Solaris is still a force to be reckoned with. Open source has made far more impact in these areas - My SQL, PHP, Linux, but for the bigger enterprises, Larry's Empire is now becoming dangerously dominant, whilst Ballmer is largely an irrelevance and McNeely has gone completely. No doubt who won the battle of the CEOs.
      • by Richard_at_work (517087) <.moc.liamg. .ta. .ecirpdrahcir.> on Tuesday August 03, 2010 @05:16AM (#33121172)
        What planet are you on? .Net is big and getting bigger every year (in the past year we have been approached once for J2EE work, its been solidly .Net with a smattering of PHP, and these are not small jobs), SQL Server and Windows Server both enjoy increasing market share, with Oracle above and other offerings below.
        • by Sycraft-fu (314770) on Tuesday August 03, 2010 @05:50AM (#33121304)

          If Oracle keeps acting like retards. I work for an engineering college at a university. If you know anything about engineering they it'll come as no surprise we are a Solaris and Windows shop. Solaris has a heavy legacy, it was doing high end work before other things could, and even today there are products that are Solaris only (though they could be ported to other OSes, they just aren't). While I won't say Solaris is problem free, I see the value in it. There is a difference between a real enterprise UNIX and Linux, loathe though Linux heads might be to admit it.

          However we are currently in the process of getting rid of as much of it as we can. We are cutting it down to 4 essential servers and that number will likely go down further, perhaps to just one. Why? Because Oracle has decided to be complete fucks when it comes to licensing. So you already pay heavy maintenance on these SPARC systems. We could buy a new x86 server per year for the cost of maintenance on most of these things. Now that's not enough, they want to charge for Solaris patches, and they want to charge a lot. Oh, and should you ever stop paying they not only do you no longer get patches you are required, and I'm not making this up, to UNINSTALL all patches you've installed.

          That's right, they are extorting you: You have to pay a yearly per server fee, or have a vulnerable system.

          Well fuck that. We are getting rid of that shit post haste. Going to be Windows and Linux for as much as we can do. In the end I expect we'll need a single SPARC system to run the few apps that run on nothing else but that's it.

          Guess what? If Oracle continues strategies like that with regards to other products, you'll find that MS will just gain more marketshare.

          • Mod parent up please (Score:2, Interesting)

            by Anonymous Coward

            Oracle is seriously screiny us around as well.
            I hate to say this but DB2 looks more attractive from a pricing point of view every day.
            That coupled with the insance price increases in WebLogic and Solaris, makes us seriously consider not buying anything more from Oracle/BEA/Sun.

            We are already moving many critical systems to Linux on X86-64 Blades (Currently HP but maybe IBM in the future).

            Oracle don't give a toss. All they want is more and more every month.

            • You can get some amazingly high end MSSQL servers these days. I've never had occasion but I do have a couple friend who work at places that do. You can get an HP Superdome 2 with 2TB of RAM and MSSQL will use it, given a large enough database. When you get the Datacenter versions of Windows and SQL Server you find that it has all the heavy hitting features you expect from a high end database. It scales to obscene levels and can handle massive reliability requirements.

              I'm told that Oracle can go further stil

        • by kikito (971480)

          The fact that your company only has had .net offers only means what it says: that your company has had such offers. Deriving from there that ".Net is getting bigger every year" is not a valid assumption; I could give a counter example pretty easily: my company hasn't had a single .Net offering since it was started.

          • You are making a blatant assumption that we as a business do not know the market we are operating in, and that is a bad assumption to make - being approached is just one part of where our work comes from, and even when we go out into the market and talk to people they do not want Java, they want .Net. And that is in a large UK city with a huge financial and insurance presence, as well as a thriving new media community. Java just doesn't get asked for.
        • by rapiddescent (572442) on Tuesday August 03, 2010 @07:12AM (#33121694)

          What planet are you on? .Net is big and getting bigger every year

          in terms of 000,000's spent - J2EE massively outweighs .NET. I work in large enterprise systems delivery and the few financial orgs that went for .NET for truly resilient financial systems have moved away. .NET is used in places for presentation tier front end for web services but not a lot else.

          The london stock exchange problems with tradelect (see article here [computerworld.com]) demonstrated that even a well funded and supported closely by top MS engineers and consultants - the system could not scale or perform to enterprise standards. This sent a real message across the financial industry (here in the UK) with many architects shunning MS. I also had to do the same when my client, a large life assurer, is having to spend over £10m to replace a perfectly functioning MS VB6/ASP sales platform because there is no upgrade path to .NET and the windows 2003 systems that it uses will go out of support soon. The last thing we're going to do is give more business to MS - so it is currently being replaced with services on an open source ESB platform (with paid support of course). The IT people here have a hard time explaining to the business why we need to spend so much money to get no new business functionality.

          • by Richard_at_work (517087) <.moc.liamg. .ta. .ecirpdrahcir.> on Tuesday August 03, 2010 @07:44AM (#33121944)
            Thats all very well and good, but the very top end of the enterprise market is not the *entire* market, and we (and every agency we know and trade work with, which is a lot of agencies) have a full order book of jobs in the mid 5 figure to mid 6 figure price range (thats UK money, so add 50% to whatever figure you are thinking to come to Dollar amounts), and they are all .Net with no Java out there. Quite frankly, I am not seeing the Java demand that Slashdot keeps harping on about - sure, you can pull big stories like the LSE out for these sorts of discussions, but that demand is not trickling down to the SME markets that is the bread and butter of most digital agencies.
            • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

              by coder111 (912060)
              Um, I'm a Java developer, and I had plenty of job OFFERS from various different agencies over last several years in London. It has been quieter in 2008/2009, but over last several months things have picked up immensely. So there's plenty of Java demand out there. And lots of banks and other companies I worked for (not all of them big) use java with great success. Java can be used for small/medium end of enterprise market as well.
              --Coder
    • by Tom (822) on Tuesday August 03, 2010 @04:53AM (#33121054) Homepage Journal

      What you point out is niche markets for MS. The core business is still office, followed by the OS. The xbox is also coming around slowly, if I remember correctly it is even starting to make back its investment, though at the current rate it'll be a century or two before it breaks even.

      When some other office suit tops 50% market share, that is when the Microsoft ship starts sinking. And, as it goes with ships, once it starts sinking, the rest goes fairly quickly. Losing the document format lock-in would put a huge hole in the hull. Browsers, music format, smart phones - all that stuff is just water that's come over the railing. It sucks, but it doesn't endanger the ship.

      As for Balmer - MS had already lost its edge when he took over. I'm quite sure he becoming the fallboy was part of the deal. Does anyone here really think Gates stepped down because he didn't like being boss anymore? He stepped down because he knew that the star was fading, and he had to build an image seperate from MS or he'd go down with it. All the good that the Gates Foundation does has the purpose of washing his image clean. Even that idea is stolen from the robber barons. (note that I don't want to diminish the good the foundation does. I just point out it's not pure altruism but has a purpose.)

      • by allcar (1111567)
        Office is critical and remains a strong product for them. Open Office / Star Office never really gained much market share, but it is looming irrelevance of the desktop that threatens office. Online apps (whether Google's or any other) are the threat here, and once again, MS has been slow to react.

        When some other office suit tops 50% market share, that is when the Microsoft ship starts sinking. And, as it goes with ships, once it starts sinking, the rest goes fairly quickly. Losing the document format lock-in would put a huge hole in the hull.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Tanaka (37812)

      I dont agree on the .NET thing. .NET is leaving J2EE for dust, and for good reason. And thats not including Mono, which is getting some serious commercial users now.

    • by master_p (608214)

      The music and smartphone markets are not the main Microsoft markets. Microsoft's game is at home and office desktops, office applications, development environment, database and servers. Microsoft is by far the dominant force in most of these domains.

  • Corporate Browser (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Nerdfest (867930) on Tuesday August 03, 2010 @04:43AM (#33121022)
    I'm hoping the big change comes as corporations replace IE6. Moving to IE8 puts them in almost the same position they're in now 5 years down the road with respect to standards compliance, tie-in to the OS, etc, but it seems that's what most are doing. Perhaps some of them will have learned something.
    • by houghi (78078)

      5 years? Most CEOs do not stay 5 years. So this won't be their problem. People want to make money now, not in 5 years. Shareholders want return now, not in 5 years.

  • companies (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Tom (822) on Tuesday August 03, 2010 @04:45AM (#33121034) Homepage Journal

    In Germany, Firefox has a 61% market share, while IE has only 25%.

    And a huge part of that is companies that are suffering from Microsoft lock-in. Seriously, when I see people's private computers, be it friends or people at the airport, etc. - it is probably 80% or more Firefox. In most of the companies, however, IE is still the corporate standard, and quite often the only allowed browser.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by AlexiaDeath (1616055)
      I don't know anyone who uses IE of their own will in these parts. The last person who I know did was my father and he is nearing 70. Using IE ended the last time I had to remove porn spam from his computer 4 or so years ago. He has been using Firefox ever since and he has even learned to use the no-script extension when he ventures into the wild parts of the Internet. Not bad for an old guy. Its the sharepoint intranet sites that keep corporate users at IE. Well, the not savy ones. The rest install IETab.
    • Firefox portable anyone?

    • Re:companies (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Lennie (16154) on Tuesday August 03, 2010 @05:33AM (#33121234) Homepage

      This is because of the deployment system and profile-settings for IE. Official Firefox doesn't have them. They are working on MSI's for Firefox 4 though. That's the first step.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Double Drop (1812370)
      Two words: Group Policy. Neither Firefox nor Chrome have officially supported ADM files and without them corporates can't manage (i.e. lock down) large numbers of users effectively. Without this critical component neither will achieve widespread corporate adoption.
      • It's actually quite trivial to set up a silent proxy with firewall rules that automatically redirect all network traffic on web ports through the proxy. Once all your web traffic is going through a proxy, you can control who can view what on the web with ease.

        In other words, it's quite easy to lock down users' web experiences without the user ever knowing it's happening. It just requires a little more effort than most management types are willing to put in.

  • Is this home users? Business users? How's the data collected?

    My experience of home users that the majority certainly aren't downloading alternative browsers. My experience of business users is that you get some IT types hating IE but others wanting the enterprise integration IE offers, the balance being those apathetic who leave IE on. So, assuming the stats are representative, what is triggering this switch?

    • IF you have a family member doing your IT support you will have Firefox. With adblock(very important, most crap happens by "OOOH, SHINY! *click**click**click*") and possibly noscript if you can be taught to operate it. Why? Because the support person values his/her free time spent doing the IT equivalent of manure shoveling. The users that can afford to go to a computer repair shop for crap cleaning stick with IE, because the cleaning guy wants to eat too and certainly is not going to tell the customer that
      • I've done the extended family + friend IT support thing and left some people on IE. Neither these guys nor the ones with FF seem to end up virus-laden once I've taken over the job. They've learnt to follow my eloquent speeches about how to behave online and enjoyed an appropriate level of anti-malware installation.

        Today it's almost impossible to find straight up-to-date IE on a machine with good anti-malware installed being used as a vehicle for automagic malware installation. The guys who download a trojan

  • I didn't want to install software on my win7 running netbook but IE annoyed me so much, it became usable and smooth only after installing Firefox.

    Today the first thing you do, you simply install Firefox, don't use IE, it is a pain.

  • by Xarius (691264) on Tuesday August 03, 2010 @05:13AM (#33121160) Homepage

    Could this be highly related to the fact that in Europe, as part of an anti-trust settlement, when you first log into a new Windows machine you are presented with a choice of internet browsers [microsoft.com] and no longer default to MSIE?

    • by Lennie (16154)

      No, this has always been the trend. The settlement didn't have a big impact as I see it.

      • How many people actually install Windows these days? Most corporations have a ghost image they roll onto every laptop, and I wouldn't be surprised most small tech firms do the same. Leaves Dell and supermarket computers, which are usually not used by the brightest of techies.

        I'm guessing that I'd choose for "Microsoft" rather than "Mozilla" or "Opera" if I were to select a question I don't understand in the first place -- just because there's Microsoft branding all over the screen.

      • Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)

        by daveime (1253762)

        Well it stopped the EU from extorting money from Microsoft. Never mind, they still have ongoing antitrusts with Google and Oracle to keep the coffers filled (and Greece in the black).

        Funny how the customers / businesses were the ones who felt the pain, yet Brussels gets to keep all the money for themselves.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by dag (2586)

      Nope, the Firefox usage numbers have always been higher in Europe than elsewhere. This has been a tendency for years. And Germany also has a historical aversion for Microsoft software and was in the past a big Linux proponent (think SuSE) and StarOffice (now OpenOffice) was bigger than Microsoft Office for years IIRC. I wouldn't be surprised if also OS/2 had a larger following to elsewhere (or at least US).

      All this predates any anti-trust settlement, but I am sure that change will make a difference too, but

    • Well, old in the computer world at any rate. IE 8 came out in March of last year. It more or less has not been updated since then. It's been patched, of course, and gotten some compatibility view updates and such but the browser, the rendering engine, all that is nearly a year and a half old.

      Lot has changed since then, there are new features people want that IE does not offer. Stagnation can cause people to switch. I switched from Netscape to IE back in the day for that reason. Netscape hit 4.7 and just sto

    • by Zumbs (1241138)
      More likely it is because Europeans are more distrustful of large coorperations than Americans and, thus, more likely to go looking for alternatives. Also, Europe has a significantly stronger trade union movement and politcal left, who are more inclined to use and contribute to Open Source usage and development.
    • I believe the slashdot crowd has already debunked these people effecting the numbers numerous times. People who don't have a browser can't get a browser to get on the internet. Furthermore, this must have caused all of the nuclear plants in Europe to blow up leading the continent to a fate not unlike Atlantis.

      And even in the unlikely event a there were number of refuges... the sample group would be too small for anything meaningful plus correlation does not necessary equal causation. Many would be like

  • Only in Europe (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Have you noticed that Europe has a much bigger uptake of Linux, Firefox and in the older days Amiga?
    I've often wondered if this is Europe being "open minded"....

    I would love to be able to say the same about Australia...

    AC

  • Seems clear that the people of Europe are generally unsatisfied and I am willing to bet that other changes, not related to Microsoft or MSIE are occurring at the same time and I would venture to guess that it is anti-American at its hearts. Not that I blame the people of Europe in the least. In a way, it might help the people of the U.S. become better people.

    • If my experience counts (I live in a small country in Europe), people are not anti-US, not by a long shot. And if they were anti-US, they'd use other OS, not just switch browsers.

    • You really shouldn't try to pin everything on anti-Americanism.
      If anything, people here in Europe like the US more since the end of the Bush era (even if many of us probably expected mor from Obama than he delivered).

      If we shun the products of American companies, it's not because they're American, but because their products or their attitude sucks.

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