Steve Furber On Why Kids Are Turned Off To Computing Classes 383
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timothy
from the thought-the-kids-were-alright dept.
from the thought-the-kids-were-alright dept.
nk497 writes "UK computing legend Steve Furber — co-founder of Acorn and ARM designer — believes students are avoiding computing classes because they teach nothing but the boring basics. Currently studying why the number of students signing up for computing has halved in the past eight years, Furber said schools focus too much on teaching kids how to use spreadsheets, word processors and PowerPoint, rather than teaching more challenging areas such as programming. 'What schools are presenting as ICT as an academic subject is very mundane compared with what students know they can do,' he said. 'It's as if maths was just arithmetic or English was taught as just spelling. It's not unimportant that you can do arithmetic or you can spell, but it certainly doesn't open up the whole world of interest and challenge, if that's all you do.'"
Re:More problems than just that (Score:3, Interesting)
Example.
I work in a US DoD agency that has a ton of civilian Engineers in it. I work with people who have MS degrees in Engineering, and tens of years of experience. Really. Friggin. Smart. People.
Not a one of them has taken a programming language that's even still used. Not even the newest Engineer, who has his Masters, and is only 26 years old. He didn't even have to TAKE a programming class. All the older engineers of my age (mid 30s) had to at least take a programming class, but it was Pascal (SERIOUSLY????) or FORTRAN.
Now - granted, FORTRAN is still used in a lot of the models we run, but I digress.
None have heard of Python, Groovy, etc. None have ever touched an object oriented language. But every one of them comes to me to write code for them where they could probably do it themselves if they had the training. I'm talking about silly stuff - data manipulation that takes 30-100 lines of code and a half day at most.
Don't get me wrong - I love my job, but ffs. If they had to take an object oriented language - even C++, but better C# or Java, they could much better interact with we programmers writing their apps for them.
Not just the boring basics (Score:5, Interesting)
Sometimes classes are outright outdated. I had a course around 1999 which was supposedly about computer programming. We spent the first few weeks with only lectures and an incredibly outdated textbook. The teacher (an otherwise okay math teacher) was clearly well behind the times. He lectured about microcomputers, minicomputers and had no idea that most servers by then were basically souped up versions of typical desktop computers.
The language was Pascal, which I suppose is a decent learning language, but we barely scratched the surface of programming ability. For a high-school level class, it was tediously outdated and slow. I truly hope that by now the instruction has moved along and kids are doing more interesting things. There were other interesting courses offered in things like graphic design, web design, etc. but the core programming class had neither much CS theory nor interesting applications. Worst, if you didn't know any better the content in the course would actually mislead you about the state of computing.
All subjects have the "boring basics". The key is the instructor; a good instructor can make the basics of a field really interesting. Unfortunately, being a good programming instructor is hard, and at the K-12 level it is really hard.
Re:well.. (Score:3, Interesting)
I think my experience differs (Score:4, Interesting)
The was a great CPU simulator programs on the BBCs and you could step through machine code. We had to write a small assembly program to add some numbers or similar. Of course we also had the office apps lessons with database/spreadsheet/wordproc stuff, mostly using clarisworks.
We also had atari sts in Art and Music departments, and the maths department had BBC micros for things like graphing and simulations on occassion. This was all during the 90's, even my primary school in the 80's had a BBC A and B for things like Funschool [wikipedia.org] etc..
Agreed. (Score:5, Interesting)
I had pre-CompSci in 7th and 8th grade, taught by an old mainframer.
He gave us challenging computer science problems. We turned them out on C64s.
When the work was done, out came the joysticks..
Thanks, Barry!
Re:well.. (Score:5, Interesting)
I was fortunate enough to attend the best-funded public school in my state and graduate from it several months ago (though one can easily argue much of the funding simply went to and from the football program, that's a topic for another post) and was also fortunate to get to experience AP-AB CS the last year it was offered. Whereas AP-A CS focused on the basics of Java (perhaps a controversial choice of language, but certainly not the topic of choice here; it worked for me and for those of my classmates interested in learning the basics of programming,) I found that AP-AB introduced more advanced concepts - algorithm efficiency analysis via Big-O notation, the exploration of various data structures, etc.
I feel the class left me unprepared in terms of what it set out to accomplish, but not because of its curriculum - I feel that the blame lies, quite frankly, in the incompetence of the teacher (for future reference, until the AP-AB course was discontinued in 2009, our school offered AP-A and AP-AB CS as consequent courses taught by the same teacher.)
While I am by no means myself an excellent programmer by any stretch of the imagination, perhaps due to some predisposition for the topic matter, I had an easier time understanding the material than many of my classmates. I believe that one factor contributing to this was an immediate dislike of my teacher, which led me to largely ignore the lectures and simply read the corresponding material in our book (if I recall correctly, it was Fundamentals of Java by Lambert and Osborne). I noticed many of my (otherwise very bright) classmates struggling with what seemed to me basic concepts and they began turning to some of my other classmates, who were either already familiar with programming or simply had a knack for picking it up quickly, and myself for help.
The teacher did not only fail to encourage having the kids actually learn something, she actively began to *stop* them from asking for help - both from each other AND from her!
This sort of attitude, combined with a very, erm...'interesting' grading scale (you could easily pass the class if your code was formatted exactly as she specified in terms of white space but didn't work at all the entire year) and, judging by the few lectures I did listen to and the complaints of my classmates, a grip on Java that was tenuous at best, guaranteed that a large number of my classmates who were bright in other subjects and sought to learn basic programming skills turned away from the area for good. (About the one thing fully everyone got from that class was that the teacher was, by all accounts, full of hot air.)
I think the problem lies in that, to weed out unsatisfactory teachers in programming, you'd need to have someone who actually understands the topic at hand involved at the screening, which, given the school I came from, seems unlikely.
TL;DR (because not everyone enjoys a long-winded and rambling essay): I just graduated from high school and took the CS courses available; both the basic and more advanced courses were held back less by their content than by the several levels of incompetence of the teacher (and it's a total shame.)
Re:8-bits for education (Score:4, Interesting)
I'd suggest starting with LOGO just to get the general concept of programming (along with immediate gratification), BASIC for a short time only to bridge between LOGO and a more advanced language.
Too much time spent using BASIC means a lot of un-learning needs to be done later.
Re:kids aren't stupid (Score:3, Interesting)
And this is what surprises me.
We always get these articles... cool ways to teach kids... problems in educations...
I hate to break it to Mr.ARM... but not everyone finds computing interesting. People have different interests.
More importantly though is the job issue. Kids are not going to invest the time into the field without good and stable job prospects.
Those do not exist.
Hence the kids who could be your engineers and developers are now being doctors, nurses, teachers, lawyers...
How many of us really bright people who went into the field would have taken the 'safe professional' route if we could do it over again?
I certainly would. Heck, I became a teacher... just no full time jobs here in Ontario, Canada... or I'd be a teacher right now.
It's a much nice life.
Which brings us to another conundrum that makes me more suspicious. The motives of the education industry.
I hate to break it to them, but increasing money on education is not going to make us more educated and better prepared in industry.
It's just going to draw more people who should be in industry... to work the education system.
Basically it will have a counter-effect of actually reducing the nations competitiveness.
America and most western countries have kids who are more than capable of being top engineers and scientists.
We are more than educated
We just choose not to do such work.
And I don't blame the kids.
Make engineering a better profession and maybe you can get some kids back. But it's going to take a generation or two.
Lord knows, if my kids ever even mention being an engineer or a software developer... they're getting a good...talkin to
If they're smart...go into a regulated profession dealing with people that gets government money or mandates (doctors, nurse, lawyer, teacher...)
If they're not that smart... then find any other job.
I just wonder if the policy makers are truly this ignorant. They really have no idea what engineers in the field are thinking. We have no seat at the table. Only economists and the social sciences. Maybe those in power just really never hear our side?
Or maybe they could care less.
Re:well.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Wake up (Score:1, Interesting)
May be different now, but when I took Comp Sci in HS (back in 98) it was an elective. So the people who WANTED to take comp sci took comp sci (granted all we landed up learning was BASIC and Pascal but it was still by choice) and it wasn't forced or anything of the sort. There was a similar class for those who just wanted to up their typing skills and play with spreadsheets.
Re:Agreed. (Score:3, Interesting)
In comparison in my highschool despite having many labs full of really nice little modern machines they taught nothing but the ECDL(read:Bullshit, nothing but microsoft spreadsheets)
To be fair to him the "computer teacher" wanted to learn but he was only one lesson ahead of the students.
I remember explaining things like the DNS system to him.
Heaven forbid they teach even a scrap of programming.
people, both students and teachers have come to consider "Computers" to mean excel spreadsheets and Microsoft word.
It would have been cool if they'd taught even the most basic scripting.
Re:Agreed. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:kids aren't stupid (Score:3, Interesting)
Where is "here"? I'm just curious. I've never had a hard time finding a job. I was out of work for four months recently, at the height of the recession, granted; but four months is hardly forever. Realistically, considering that everyone was looking for work at the time, I expected it to be much worse. What skill sets do you have? Where are you looking? Are you willing to relocate? I had to relocate to take this job, which sucked, but they paid for the move. When you write resumes and cover letters do you use capitalization and proper punctuation, or are they written like your post? I'm not a Grammar Nazi on Internet forums, and I certainly don't care how you express yourself here; but if you write the same way in business correspondence I wouldn't hire you.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not knocking you. These are legitimate questions. When you send a resume to a business, yours is doubtless one of at least ten they see. I've hired people for entry and mid-career level IT jobs, and I've never received fewer than 10 or 12 applicants for a given job. I've received as many as 30, but that was before the recession; I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that jobs get dozens or hundred of applicants now.
When I have 12 resumes and cover letters in front of me, and I'm looking to weed it down to 4 for interviews I'm looking at a lot of things, but a couple stand out:
1) What can you do that others can't? If your resumes basically says: "I can program in Java" or "I can fix Windows" chances are that you're staying in the pile. If you've got good experience, let it speak for you (really speak for you, not 6 jobs worth of "and then I programmed Java again for x industries"). If you're just starting out, give me an idea of your skills beyond "program Java". Tell me about how you "have in depth understanding of CS fundamentals that will allow you to pick up new skills and tools quickly" (that's nearly word for word from my resume when I was just starting out). Make yourself sound as awesome as you can without actually lying.
2) Quality of the writing. Yes, it matters. If it's between you and a guy who has most of the same qualifications; and your resume is barely intelligible, guess who's getting an interview. I've been known to drop even technically more qualified candidates for people with communication skills. I'm expecting these people to communicated with users, other techs, vendors, in a couple cases even government officials. Being able to write and speak is important.
Of course being familiar with a specific technology or having a particular skill, or whatever can matter too; but really it's about laying out what skills and experience make you awesome, and doing so in a literate, readable way. If your location is really awful, get out. You don't have to live in New York or Silicon Valley to get good work in technical fields, but some places are better than others. I'm in Huntsville, AL right now. Not my preferred home, but there's plenty of work here and the cost of living is reasonable.
Stand out, be flexible, and make your resume the one that the guy with the checkbook wants to hire. It's taken me pretty far for a guy with a BA in History who started as phone in tech support on Windows boxes for just above minimum wage 12 years ago.
Re:Agreed. (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been helping some students learn programming that have similar math issues. Their code is sub-optimal. It's just that simple. They don't have the knowledge to design or understand certain algorithms and usually just brute force trial & error until they happen upon the correct output.
Since it is the correct output they've done well for introductory courses. Unfortunately their code is littered with superfluous variables, if/else blocks, and no ability to sub-divide into smaller problems with well defined inputs and outputs. In fact I assume these are exactly the kinds of programmers that end up on TheDailyWTF.com
Re:That's how it was in my school (Score:5, Interesting)
Then there was my freshman geometry teacher, God bless her, who on the first day of class told us all to get TI-83's, and on the second day started handing out code listings and had a standing policy of 'if you wrote the code on your calculator yourself, you can use it on the test'.
Re:Misdiagnosing the problem (Score:2, Interesting)
Irony: Using as a citation a guy who thinks that citation is a game that "academics" play.
Re:Agreed. (Score:3, Interesting)
My children both attended private schools for a couple of years. The first school was possibly the best in the city, curriculum-wise. When we found that my daughter had a bit of trouble with reading and was falling behind, they had nothing for her except to tell us to seek private tutoring. We tried another private, all-girls school for her and had only a little better success. When my son, on the other hand, progressed so rapidly he out-paced the class, again they had had nothing for him but to advance him long before he was emotionally ready. Therefore, he languished in boredom like you hear about in public school.
When a pay cut came along for me in the downturn, I had was forced to move them both to public school, a solution I was already considering for my daughter due to the availability of reading specialists. Both are now flourishing in an environment that has a far greater variety of challenges for my son and the help my daughter needed (she now reads above grade level.) This is certainly not what I thought I'd learn, but there you have it.
Private schools have many trade-offs aside from the additional cost.
"How to use a Macintosh" at Stanford (Score:3, Interesting)
I actually took a 1-credit "How to use a Macintosh" course at Stanford. Of course, this was in 1984, when that was a big deal.
(The 128K Macintosh, with one floppy and no hard drive, wasn't very impressive. It's worth remembering that it was a commercial flop. "A machine for the intensive study of wait icons", someone wrote at the time. Not until the Mac was built up to 512K or so and had a working hard drive was it actually useful.)