Firefox 4 Will Be One Generation Ahead

An anonymous reader writes "Mozilla's Chris Blizzard talks about the rising competition by Google Chrome, the evolution of the web platform and the prospects for WebM. He also promises that Firefox 4 will be 'one generation ahead' of other browsers in relation to Javascript speed."

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[garcia]

The browser vendors' fetishistic obsession with Javascript speed is most irritating.

I have mod points but I decided to respond instead... I agree with you, it is irritating especially when the browser's speeds themselves are miserable. Yay great, Chrome loads faster but I have random issues with plugins which affect my work (one of the plugins is disabling me from reading GMail messages) and AdBlock still doesn't work nearly as well as it does on Firefox for the sites I use most often.

I wish Firefox would stop trying to compete in Javascript and go back to one of the biggest reasons they started the project: speed of the browser itself. That means it should open instantaneously and have low overhead--even with the usual plugins installed (AdBlock, NoScript, etc).

But...

[dispatch]

...my company insists on remaining one generation behind!

Re:Javascript is dead

[armanox]

Java and Javascript are related in name only. Whatever convoluted scheme Oracle comes up with for Java has no bearing on Javascript.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[pushing-robot]

Nothing can touch add-ons like NoScript, AdBlock, etc.

You mean like Adblock for Chrome [google.com] and NotScripts for Chrome? [google.com]

Chrome and Safari got a nice extension makeover recently that puts them on par with Firefox IMHO.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Anonymous Coward]

That should be modded up. I've about had it with lag and eventual shutdown of FF. After using for a few days with only a few windows open, FF eventually becomes so unresponsive that I've got to restart it. I mean, click a link and it's takes 4-5 seconds for FF to even start to do anything. Pages load fast, but then the cycle starts again. As an early adopter of FF, I'm now considering a switch to Chrome. Ugh.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[sd.fhasldff]

h264 isn't going to be a practical problem for the vast majority of users, since Firefox can just use a system codec (non-Windows-users would have to make sure they have one, of course).

As for JS speed, Mozilla are very ardent in their speed claims, so it's hard not to believe they have something to back it up. It's difficult for users and external testers to figure out exactly how fast they are, despite being open source, because the Moz team is pursuing several parallel tracks to increase JS speed. There's "fat-val", "tracer JIT" and "method JIT". Each is currently significantly faster than the "normal" versions, but there hasn't been any public testing on a build that combines all three.

Mozilla claim they'll be faster than everyone else and while they may be scuppered by new advances from Google and Opera, it seems reasonable that they will at least be faster at launch than where everyone else is now. That alone would ensure "next-generation JS performance".

Where they trail Chrome is in "use speed". Chrome starts and shuts down a lot faster -- and I think that's going to be a problem for Firefox moving forward (more than it already is).

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[elrous0]

Nowhere. But right now it's the most widely adopted and implemented (pretty much everyone but Firefox either does or is planning to support it). Until there is an alternative that all the major browsers support, Firefox is going to continue to lag behind. WebM is promising. But without MS onboard, it's going nowhere.

Re:GPU Graphics Acceleration

[VGPowerlord]

If Firefox for doesn't have GPU graphics acceleration it will be a generation behind Microsoft Internet Explorer.

All the Javascript speed in the world won't make up for last generation webpage rendering that nails the CPU while the GPU sits idle.

RTFA

Specifically:

derStandard.at: Firefox 4 is going to use hardware acceleration through Direct2D and DirectWrite on Windows, are similar things coming up for Linux and Mac OS X?

Chris Blizzard: Within what's provided: Yes. We're trying to give the best experience possible on each platform. So for Windows Vista and 7 we see huge improvements when doing certain graphically intensive stuff. On OS X for example we have support for OpenGL for doing compositing, on Linux we do the same. But generally the Windows APIs that we have are better and more rich than what we have on other platforms. To give you an example: On Linux Cairo and Pixman were supposed to be fast, but unfortunately the underlying infrastructure never really got fast. On OS X we are actually pretty fast but Direct2D gives the performance advantage to Windows at the moment.

Re:What would be better than faster JavaScript...

[sd.fhasldff]

This is probably due to sqlite and a severely fragmented / huge / whatever history+bookmarks.

Try a clean profile. If that does the trick, try backing them up and importing in a clean profile. Probably "prune" them a bit while you're at it.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[mini me]

Not yet. However, unlike previous HTML specifications, HTML5 is attempting to define which formats are required to be supported by media tags. Microsoft and Apple want it to be H.264. Mozilla says they won't support it leaving the specification at a standstill.

Re:SQLite database vacuum

[Sami Lehtinen]

There are a few alternatives to yet another plugin:
1) You can use standalone SQLite3 installation to open bases and vacuum those.
2) Use Python script for vacuuming.
3) You can use Error Console with following string to vacuum bases:
Components.classes["@mozilla.org/browser/nav-history-service;1"].getService(Components.interfaces.nsPIPlacesDatabase).DBConnection.executeSimpleSQL("VACUUM");
I personally prefer last option, beacuse no additional software is required.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[diegocg]

Not just extensions, the Firefox UI is written in javascript.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[marsu_k]

Regarding the "awesome bar" (I really like the functionality, but loathe the name), the sqlite database can get fragmented over time. You might want to try this [lifehacker.com] ever now and then. Can make a world of difference, especially with slower computers/disks.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[cyfer2000]

I hope you realized that the UI and extensions of firefox are written in Javascript, when you complain those speed issues, most of them are somewhat related with speed of javascript.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Enderandrew]

Mozilla has different groups working on different projects. Firefox had some bloat and memory leak issues and even since then, they've worked hard to address those.

Firefox uses less memory than Chrome. It's UI will never be quite as fast because of XUL but it isn't like the only thing they are working on is JS.

And JS is important because so many web apps depend on it. I have to use IE at work, and Gmail is painfully slow in it.

Re:Do these guy get paid?

[multipartmixed]

Christopher Blizzard is an Open Source Evangelist working for the Mozilla Corporation and a long-time contributor to Open Source projects, notably with Mozilla, Red Hat, and One Laptop Per Child.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Still not quite up to par, as shown on the home page itself:

New in version 2.0: Ads are actually BLOCKED FROM DOWNLOADING now, instead of just being removed after the fact! Note that Chrome doesn't actually support this all the way, so a few resources might still load before AdBlock can get to them, in which case we'll remove those as usual.

Which means that while most content is blocked, some gets loaded -- and any content that gets loaded is great for those who like to aggregate your usage data across multiple sites.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[slim]

Not yet. However, unlike previous HTML specifications, HTML5 is attempting to define which formats are required to be supported by media tags.

The HTML5 spec is done. Big players could not agree on a video codec, so the W3C regretfully had the standard leave the choice of codec as an implementation detail. Tsk.

Microsoft and Apple want it to be H.264. Mozilla says they won't support it leaving the specification at a standstill.

To paraphrase the other responder. "Mozilla, Opera and Google want it to be Theora. Apple and MS say they won't support it leaving the specification at a standstill."

Why are you furious at Mozilla for impeding progress, yet happy about Apple doing so?

Both parties are at deadlock. The difference is that Mozilla's position comes from a pragmatic desire to keep the Web open. (And Apple's from a pragmatic desire to profit from their software patent licensing).

Re:Javascript is dead

[Anonymous Coward]

Sun is innocent on this one; it was Netscape's marketing.
(yes, JavaScript is as similar to Java as a watermelon is to a pi-meson)

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Requiem18th]

He said usable, as defined by his standards not yours.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[darrylo]

but one advantage is that if you close a tab, the memory it is consuming is released.

That's the one big reason why I'm still using chrome. As attractive as FF is, some extension or something eats and eats and eats memory, and the only way to reclaim it is via a full restart. With chrome, you just kill the offending tab. I want to continue using FF, but the memory growth is driving me crazy.

I hear the occasional rumor that some upcoming FF release will support chrome-like multiprocess handling, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[aztracker1]

However, what one person considers an absolutely needed piece of functionality another will find useless... I find that greasemonkey, and firebug + yslow are invaluable. I don't really get that with Opera... also, Opera has had a few UI annoyances that really irked me in the past... The 10.x versions not so much though... I do have to test in Safari, Opera, Chrome, Firefox and IE6-8 currently, but my main browser for dev at work is Firefox. I use IE at work (because it's friendlier with the firewall), and Firefox at home... I've used Opera and Chrome as my main browser each for two weeks about once a year, but keep going back to Firefox.