Windows Phone Permanently Modifies MicroSD Cards, Warns Samsung 426
dotancohen writes "Don't put your MicroSD cards into Windows Phones. According to Samsung, doing so is a 'permanent modification' to the card, and it can no longer be used in other devices."
And they expect to sell those phones? (Score:3, Interesting)
This information alone means that I'll avoid ever getting a Windows phone, even if it should have tremendous advantages otherwise.
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:5, Interesting)
The S in SD means "Secure" which is an acronym for DRM ... and how that DRM exactly works is not public... Microsoft is probably using the DRM feature of the cards... where as most other companies to this point have not been that brave...
Opportunity (Score:1, Interesting)
If the phone is using the seldomly-used DRM part of the SD specification to lock the card, this could be an opportunity for hackers to find out how the SD card DRM works.
Probably Just the media class being changed (Score:5, Interesting)
Its probably just the media class that is being changed. Within the first sectors of SD cards and flash drives there is a section which defines what kind of removable storage device it is. You can change this with certain tools to make things like flash drives that usually show up as removable storage show up like fixed drives so that you can boot from them. This simple change in the first chunk of the memory makes the system treat it entirely differently, allowing multiple partitions etc. So if the device is re-labeled as a different class in this memory segment it is quite possible that it would behave like this. The hp bootable USB utility can make this kind of change to a drive and so would probably be able to recover one of these 'modified' cards to a format usable by other devices.
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:2, Interesting)
The S in SD means "Secure" which is an acronym for DRM ... and how that DRM exactly works is not public....
That is why SD cards are scary... Once I tried to do a low-level formatting on my SD card, but the program I used to do do it went crazy and I guess it sent random comands to my card and killed it. Using another SD-specific low-level formatter on my pda it was back, nothing else could fix it.
Scary.
Logical Volume? (Score:5, Interesting)
The Windows Phone 7 operating system treats the SD card as an integrated part of the phone. This is in contrast to other devices, where you can use an SD card to increase the memory available to the device at any time or to transfer files to other devices,” the page reads.
To me this sounds like they are creating a disk pool that treats the internal memory and SD card as single logical volume, like LVM on Linux. In that case, even if other operating systems understood the formatting, it would be like yanking a single drive from a RAID array and expecting to get meaningful data off of it. It's possible in the forensic sense, but the data is incomplete and that's not how it is meant to be used.
I agree that you could probably reformat again, but they really should have been more upfront about the fact that sticking an SD card in a Windows Phone will result in permanent data loss.
The SD slot isn't meant for the customer (Score:5, Interesting)
The SD slot is intended to be used by the carrier to upgrade device internal memory. That's why there's a big old sticker over it saying it will void your warranty of you install it. There's really nothing wrong with this, IMO. It's more flexible than baking in the flash memory and having to go back to Foxconn for new orders of 64GB models.
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:3, Interesting)
Larry Boucher intended SCSI to be an acronym all along. Pronounced "sexy." That didn't quite happen. I still think you're sexy, Larry.
Re:SD limitations according to Microsoft KB2450831 (Score:3, Interesting)
Question:
If the MicroSD card in your Windows Phone 7 device cannot be removed or replaced, what is the point of making it a MicroSD card rather than simply more onboard memory?
Re:SD limitations according to Microsoft KB2450831 (Score:3, Interesting)
Good question!
I want to say that cost is the reason, but I can't: As highly-integrated as a modern smartphone is, it'd almost certainly be cheaper to put the extra flash memory on the same board as everything else than it would be to build a socket to house an SD card.
Perhaps marketing flexibility: They may want to be like Apple and advertise non-upgradeable 8, 16, and 32GB models, but don't want the bother of actually building the phones differently on the assembly line.
Or, my favorite option: They wanted you to be able to use it just like every other phone's MicroSD slot. And then, late in the game after the hardware is already beginning to be produced, the software folks decided they weren't going to let that work.
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:0, Interesting)
Electrical Engineer here...
Please mod this guy down. SD cards are ancient. The 'secure' part of SD means write protection. It has nothing to do with DRM or encryption or anything else.
Re:How do you explain that, given the facts? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:1, Interesting)
The S in SD means "Secure" which is an acronym for DRM ... and how that DRM exactly works is not public... Microsoft is probably using the DRM feature of the cards... where as most other companies to this point have not been that brave...
I think this is actually close to the truth. TFA mentions that the phone in question has on-board Zune software. This tells me that this was done deliberately to make sure that any music downloaded to the phone, stays on the phone.
RSD
It sounds like the standard is broken (Score:3, Interesting)
If the SD standard allows for this then the standard is broken.
All devices - particularly media devices - should be able to be reset to a "clean" state, where the only changes are those put in by the firmware to track remapping, "odometers," and the like and this "firmware"-controlled data is unwritable by ANY consumer device.
You can make a DRM-enabled chip that meets these requirements and meet what I think are Microsoft's requirements fairly easily. You need to have an instruction to the firmware to "lock" the SD device to the host device so only "authorized" devices - or only this device - can read it, an "unlock/modify lock" instruction that can only be executed by devices authorized to change the lock settings, and a "reset card" instruction accessible to any device that will scrub the card of all usable information and THEN after the scrub finishes, remove all the locks and finally do a standard format operation.
It sounds like the latter or perhaps the last two operations are missing from the SD standard or missing from most implementations.
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:5, Interesting)
The only reason it uses an SD card is because it's convenient to build, and it allows the different providers to use whatever size storage they want. In this phone, the SD card it not a user serviceable part.
That, and it doesn't even surprise me in the slightest that MS is going to require you to buy an SD card from THEM. At twice the price I'm sure, "for the added quality" of course. They're doing you a favor don't you see?
Who else in the world would consider making a proprietary format of SD card?
It's like those game consoles that can take a hard drive upgrade, but only if they get to dip their hand into your wallet during the upgrade, selling you an "upgrade kit" that gets you past their clandestine restrictions on swapping of hardware.
You can piss and moan all you want, but be sure to Vote with your wallet - it's the only vote they count.
Slipping a little bit more towards on topic though... the SD card format (sony iirc?) has a lot of cloak-and-dagger DRM features built into it, that up until now haven't gotten used much. There's a reason it's called a "secure digital" card. I expect this problem is coming up because when you stick in a new unlocked SD card, MS flips all the switches to turn on the DRM on the card, effectively bricking it for any device short of that specific phone you put it in. Preventing you from using it to move data between your phone and anything else. I'm sure they'll sell you an app to do that though.
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:3, Interesting)
Microsoft has really managed to create a device less compatible with microSD cards than the iPhone, which doesn't even have a microSD slot. That's... that's quite impressive, really. The decision to make data on the internal flash dependent on the health of the SD card is pretty insane but... I mean, wow.
I wonder if Microsoft will at some point notice that their attitude of "we define the specs and the market will follow" does not neccessarily work.
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:1, Interesting)
The only reason it uses an SD card is because it's convenient to build, and it allows the different providers to use whatever size storage they want. In this phone, the SD card it not a user serviceable part.
That, and it doesn't even surprise me in the slightest that MS is going to require you to buy an SD card from THEM. At twice the price I'm sure, "for the added quality" of course. They're doing you a favor don't you see?
Who else in the world would consider making a proprietary format of SD card?
It's like those game consoles that can take a hard drive upgrade, but only if they get to dip their hand into your wallet during the upgrade, selling you an "upgrade kit" that gets you past their clandestine restrictions on swapping of hardware.
You can piss and moan all you want, but be sure to Vote with your wallet - it's the only vote they count.
Slipping a little bit more towards on topic though... the SD card format (sony iirc?) has a lot of cloak-and-dagger DRM features built into it, that up until now haven't gotten used much. There's a reason it's called a "secure digital" card. I expect this problem is coming up because when you stick in a new unlocked SD card, MS flips all the switches to turn on the DRM on the card, effectively bricking it for any device short of that specific phone you put it in. Preventing you from using it to move data between your phone and anything else. I'm sure they'll sell you an app to do that though.
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:3, Interesting)
odd, as i have one in my hot sweaty palm as we speak. seems to work pretty good too.
regarding the SD thing, i've seen reports that the Samsung Focus (currently the only phone with SD storage, and the one i own) is very picky about the cards being used, it doesnt seem to matter which class of card you use or what size, though it can allocate up to 32GB. from what i understand, WP7 will append it on to the existing partition, and the fault occurs when the card is removed and reinserted, the device will only recognize 15MB free space and then both the phone and card must be reformatted. but again its not been identified publicly as to what causes this issue. the original notion was that the SD card quality may be a key factor, WP7 may not like seeing a bunch of unusable blocks on a card. i know many cards have some sketchy reliability.
Re:How do you explain that, given the facts? (Score:2, Interesting)
The Nazis were impatient, is all. Their admirers watched, and learned.