Teacher Suspended Over Blog About Students 634
English teacher Natalie Munroe is in a bit of hot water after she described the precious snowflakes in her class as: “Frightfully dim,” “Rat-like,” “Am concerned your kid is going to open fire on the school,” “I hate your kid,” and “Seems smarter than she actually is,” on her blog. The Central Bucks School District has suspended Natalie after parents complained to administrators. “It’s hard to know that you sat in her class for an hour and a half a day and for her to feel that way it is like, it is an awful feeling,” student Alli Woloshyn said.
Not an YRO (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think this teacher's suspension over the blog is a violation of her rights online. Everyone is free to say what they wish without risk of government censorship. But on the flip side of the coin, everyone must also bear the consequences of their speech. She went online, said something stupid and now she has to deal with the consequences of that.
And frankly, she deserves to be suspended. Clearly, if she's posting this kind of stuff, her ability to teach those kids she refers to as idiots and rats is compromised. Does anyone want to be taught by someone who feels nothing but contempt for them?
Re:Less Honesty Please... (Score:4, Insightful)
That's not the issue. If she had spoken to the parents, privately, about their children that's one thing. To speak about the children in this fashion on a public forum is extremely unprofessional behavior.
Normally I'm aghast when someone gets in trouble at work for their private blog/whatever, but in this case it's perfectly reasonable.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:5, Insightful)
I have a friend who teaches in high school. He comments about his students and their silliness from time to time on Facebook, but nothing even remotely like this. He has sense enough to do it very tactfully and in ways that are not degrading.
Re:she should quit if she doesn't like her job (Score:3, Insightful)
Quit yer whinin! When I was in school, we had nuns for teachers, and they'd tell you worse shit than this TO YOUR FACE. And then the rest of the class would laugh at you while the nun basked in your ridicule. It made you stronger, or at least work hard enough to not be below average.
Pot, meet Kettle (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Not an YRO (Score:4, Insightful)
I would want to be taught by someone who is honest. If a dimwitted student is holding back the rest of the class, I want the teachers empowered to say so and do something about it. In my experience, the more patronizing a teacher, the less effective he or she is.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:5, Insightful)
That might be, but nobody forced her to take the job or change her feelings. If the children were that dim there are ways of handling it. Sometimes parents do need to be told that the student isn't performing adequately. Typically that's done via report card, note home or possible home visit. Handling it via social networking site is completely unforgivable.
Typically I'm against employers holding employees accountable for personal writings, but in this case it's not really a personal writing so much as a violation of the students right to privacy and a general violation of professional ethics.
I've spent a lot of time personally undoing the damage that poor instruction has caused, and that was more legitimate lack of training without malice. Something like this could definitely haunt the students for years and possibly the rest of their lives. And no, I'm not exaggerating, a surprising number of late diagnosed "learning disorders" aren't really anxiety driven rather than whatever the diagnosis was.
Re:Less Honesty Please... (Score:5, Insightful)
I not only have to agree with everything the parent says, but add two points:
1) This opens the school up for a big "emotional distress" lawsuit, and
2) I taught emotionally disturbed kids and normal kids. Even for teens, teachers are still enough of an authority that for a student to realize this is being said about them in a very public forum (not just the teacher's lounge, for example) could have repercussions for decades. I've known people that have been insulted by teachers that took it to heart because they respected the teacher and took years to understand the comments were not only inappropriate but not worth paying attention to.
All teachers want to be remembered as an influence and want to change lives, but not in the way this teacher has changed some young lives.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree with you completely, I've got a few teacher friends who say similar things to what this woman said in the article. But, they say it privately, usually over drinks with non-associated friends, and they're well aware that saying them in public would get them fired.
Teaching kids is frustrating, and people need to vent sometimes. The only thing to remember is, if you need to work with people you're venting about, don't vent where they can hear you!
Re:Not an YRO (Score:5, Insightful)
Teaching kids is not about getting something from the kids. It isn't about mutual respect. It isn't about them asking "how high" when you say "jump". It isn't about having kids revere you as their mentor.
Teaching kids is about *helping the kids*. If they are great at algebra, then teach them polynomials. If they can barely handle addition, teach them addition. If they can barely pay attention to addition, work on getting them to pay attention/have self confidence/etc. Someone with the attitude of this teacher (or yours) is certainly not doing this. She deserves a suspension. Her attitude betrays a point of view toxic to pedagogy. In a perfect world where she could easily find work elsewhere and where the school could easily replace her then she should be asked to leave. Hopefully she takes her suspension as a wake up call. I doubt it, but we can hope.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:From the video in TFA (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not an YRO (Score:5, Insightful)
I had teachers who regularly called students (me included) "stupid bastard", and that wasn't by any means the worst of it. Never did me any harm - in fact the teacher who was polite and formal all the time was the universally despised one - nicknamed "Timmy!". His kid went to the same school, and was thrown out of a second-storey window because his father was such a pratt. Not defending that, I think it's reprehensible, but it happened.
...
:). We dissected things (bulls eye, frog, ...) from age-11 onwards; I took an explosives option in Chemistry, used woodworking and metalworking power tools from age 12, etc. etc. Basically they treated us as young adults, and expected us to behave the same. Part of that is coping with being told you're a stupid bastard. Because, sometimes, everyone is (the stupid part - the bastard part is just to drive home the stupid part...)
I had a Spanish teacher (Geoffrey Park) who used to throw a padlock at kids who weren't paying attention, a maths teacher who threw chalk (he was far more accurate...) and it was all fine. I remember getting my own back at the kids-v-teachers football match by starting a chant "Geoffrey Park, super-star!, walks like a woman and he wears a bra". All in fun, and I didn't expect (or get) any comeback in class later.
Of course, I went to school in the UK, in a northern town, and it was far-and-away rougher than the US (at least in CA where I live). No guns or knives (considered the tools of cowards, where I'm from), but it was easy to come home bruised every single day for a year or so, with occasional visits to hospital.
Sometimes the comparison between my school-life and the "issues" and "problems" facing todays youth seems very amusing
Of course, it wasn't all bad. I had teachers who shot down thrown paper airplanes with the fire-extinguisher, or who came out to the pub with us for a drink after driving us to 'Bridge night' (I was in the school bridge team, and yes, we were under-age
Simon
Re:Less Honesty Please... (Score:4, Insightful)
Purely playing Devil's Advocate here ....
But haven't kids repeatedly gotten their right to say what they want about teachers online upheld over and over?
I've know a fair few teachers ... as much as they start out really giving a shit, after a sufficiently long period of time babysitting other people's ill-behaved, spoiled brats with various anti-social disorders ... well, eventually, they're mostly just putting in time.
Nowadays they're so hand-cuffed by not wanting to hurt little Billy's feelings by telling him he can't spell, I can see why she would be ranting about the things she'd like to say.
Everyone keeps lamenting how we need more educators -- make it less of a thankless job, and let teachers actually fail kids and be able to enforce some form of discipline.
She's probably right about being dimwits, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Not an YRO (Score:4, Insightful)
There's quite a strong bias against teachers here. There's also a lot of self-proclaimed geniuses who don't get recognized because ["the system" is biased against them | they test badly | they have assburgers | other lame-ass excuse].
I wonder if these two facts are connected?
Re:Not an YRO (Score:5, Insightful)
A teacher's obligation is to help her students learn, is it not? An appropriate response to a student "holding back the rest of the class" is to confer with the parent and recommend alternatives, not complain about it on a publicly accessible blog. Honesty does not require being an asshole.
If it walks like a duck (Score:5, Insightful)
What exactly is wrong with calling lazy, sneaky, rude teenagers "lazy", "sneaky" and "rude"?
Re:Not an YRO (Score:5, Insightful)
Teaching kids is about *helping the kids*.
How is the 'no kid left behind' doctrine helping kids? How is dumbing down the curriculum to help the under achiever helping the brilliant student?
If they are great at algebra, then teach them polynomials. If they can barely handle addition, teach them addition.
And here we have the crux of the problem with education in the United States. Teachers are unable to individually teach students, and thus, those that shine in their area of expertise suffer for those who are average. In fact, some school systems enforce average teaching because singling out students tend to get the teacher in question in trouble with the school boards.
If they can barely pay attention to addition, work on getting them to pay attention/have self confidence/etc.
And how does one enforce this? Spanking no longer is an option. Sending to the principles office? Most kids causing the problems really don't care if they're in trouble because they know the school system can't do -anything- to them if their parents don't care either, which is most always the case for troubled youth to begin with. Teachers can't do anything when the legal system and government and school boards take their power away to help them.
Someone with the attitude of this teacher (or yours) is certainly not doing this. She deserves a suspension.
Then you should suspend all teachers. I guarentee you that every single teacher out there, good or not, have felt this at least once. They vent to family, friends, and each other all the time. The only mistake this teacher did was to vent on a public forum where it was visible when she probably should have kept it private.
Her attitude betrays a point of view toxic to pedagogy.
Point your finger to the Government system that have ham-strung our education system. The teachers are as much a product of it as the piss-poor education our children are suffering through. She's a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.
Hopefully she takes her suspension as a wake up call. I doubt it, but we can hope.
Why should she? She will likely do the exact same thing that students under her do who also cause problems. Not a damn thing. Why? Because it won't matter. Why care when no one else does. You've shown what the majority of people think already. You never once considered her view point. Why she felt the way she did. Why she felt she needed to vent. You automatically accused her because... why? The children could do no wrong?
Smell reality sometime. It's different than the fiction you're sniffing.
Re:Less Honesty Please... (Score:5, Insightful)
1) This opens the school up for a big "emotional distress" lawsuit, and
Oh, no! Someone said mean words to me! For some reason, I absolutely must get offended by this!
You may not feel it's appropriate, but this is the reality of the world we live in. The school could be facing lawsuits like this, whether the plaintiffs are just trying to make a buck, or if they feel it's the only way to make sure it doesn't happen again, they are still open to liability issues surrounding this.
Even for teens, teachers are still enough of an authority that for a student to realize this is being said about them in a very public forum (not just the teacher's lounge, for example) could have repercussions for decades.
Decades? No, even for a moment? Why are some people so afraid of words? If there's anything people need to be taught, it's that you do not need to be offended by mere words, and indeed, it is far more efficient not to be. If you made a mistake, don't make the same one again. If you didn't, shrug it off. Whining about things (especially words) and getting offended doesn't change anything.
I've heard people say this, and it sounds like good logic, but it's good in theory and not in face. The phrase "I love you" is just words. The Constitution is just words. Hitler's speeches that riled up so many people is just words.
But words are how we communicate, they are how we express our thoughts and feelings. They are how we transmit facts and opinions, so the "Just words" argument really doesn't work.
These words are letting a number of students know that someone they respected and whom they thought respected them did not respect them. They are telling them that someone, a trained and recognized authority, has judged them to be inferior. So it's more than just words, there's a lot more involved. Even for people that will just "shrug it off," there's still damage that hits in ways we don't always see for a long time.
So it's not about words. It's what those words convey, communicate, and represent.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:4, Insightful)
And then the parents go "LA LA LA Our crotchfruit is perfect! WE CAN'T HEAR YOU!" while plugging their ears.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:5, Insightful)
I disagree. Some of my BEST teachers (based on the measure of how much I learned/gained from a class) had no problem calling a student out in front of the WHOLE class with a cuttingly honest remark. Why? Because they would point out the faults and pressure you to work towards fixing them. Sure, there was a student here or there that merely gave up in the class after such remarks, but those were the same students that put no effort in elsewhere either. On the flip side, these same teachers gave out praise for exemplary work, and you can bet when you got it you felt great.
At this point, too many students are coddled when they need to be slapped up-side the head with reality. Lazy, disrespectful, and borderline criminal students need not be told it's "okay" but rather need to be told to shape up. Too many are coming out of school expecting things to be handed to them, or to "pass" with minimum effort.
You Forget. Teachers are Scum (Score:5, Insightful)
They have no right to a union, no right to speak, no right to demand respect from students. Everybody except teachers knows exactly how to teach just as those who use computers or cars know everything there is about how to design and build them. Education is a mess because of worthless, lowlife teachers and despite the heroic efforts of principals, administrators, parents, taxpayers, and former students. All the smart people on Slashdot taught themselves everything they know, and, as former students, are experts not only at being students but also on being teachers. Teachers should be fed to the hogs, or better still, the students. Just imagine how much money it would save if students taught themselves and ate ground teacher instead of tax-payer supported lunchmeat.
I don't work for a school district, or, of course, I would be suspended and muzzled for this post. Quite right, too.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:4, Insightful)
Teachers are expected to lead their charges in the right direction and have made the choice to be a teacher in the first place.
And if a teacher is doing that when acting in her position at school, I don't see a problem with her holding or expressing negative opinions outside of school. Writing in her blog is not the same as neglecting or mistreating her students. Just as I can work with co-workers I don't like or respect, I'm sure she's capable of instructing people she doesn't like or respect.
Re:Oh, come on (Score:4, Insightful)
Here's a hint: the teacher is supposed to be the RESPONSIBLE one of this matchup.
No, I don't see how that's pertinent. Just because she doesn't like her students doesn't mean she's not doing her job. It's not irresponsible to complain about people you don't like. Impolitic, maybe, but I'm less interested in politically-savvy teachers than I am in capable educators.
If she's not doing her job that's irresponsible, but if she's doing it despite personal feelings, I'd say that's the definition of responsibility.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree with everything you said, but it has nothing to do with this situation.
There is a big difference between calling a students failings out in the class room vs any public forum, electronic or otherwise.
And I would also expect a teacher who says "I hate your kid" to get fired no matter what the forum.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:4, Insightful)
You're talking about constructive criticism. It does have it's place. TFA is about a teacher writing snarky comments (that seemed to be mostly name calling rather than constructive) in her blog where they wouldn't likely do the students any good.
Re:Less Honesty Please... (Score:4, Insightful)
Everyone keeps lamenting how we need more educators -- make it less of a thankless job, and let teachers actually fail kids and be able to enforce some form of discipline.
Sadly that right is reserved only for private schools (and even then only ones with standards, ones that are not afraid to lose students for the sake of the bottom line). This works because public schools are always there to catch the dumb, delinquent and violent of the bunch. Sadly also the poor.
The system does work for those with money or exceptionally intelligent children (Catholic schools can offer scholarships even at grade school level). For everyone else... well, that's not where politicians' kids are anyway...
Re:Not an YRO (Score:4, Insightful)