What's Your College Major Worth? 433
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samzenpus
from the getting-your-money's-worth dept.
from the getting-your-money's-worth dept.
Hugh Pickens writes "The Chronicle of Higher Education reports that with tuition rising and a weak job market everyone seems to be debating the value of a college degree. Anthony P. Carnevale, director of the Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce, says talking about the bachelor's degree in general doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because its financial payoff is heavily affected by what that degree is in and which college it is from. For the first time, researchers analyzed earnings based on 171 college majors and the differences are striking: For workers whose highest degree is a bachelor's, median incomes ranged from $29,000 for counseling-psychology majors to $120,000 for petroleum-engineering majors but the data also revealed earnings differences within groups of similar majors. Within the category of business majors, for instance, business-economics majors had the highest median pay, $75,000 while business-hospitality management earned $50,000. The study concludes that while there is a lot of variation in earnings over a lifetime, all undergraduate majors are worth it, even taking into account the cost of college and lost earnings with the lifetime advantage ranging from $1,090,000 for Engineering majors to $241,000 for Education majors. 'The bottom line is that getting a degree matters, but what you take matters more,' (PDF) concludes Carnevale." Last week we learned that dropping out of college could earn you $100,000 in start-up money for your business.
The plural of anecdote is not data, but... (Score:4, Interesting)
This economy sucks.
Re:Finally some sanity (Score:5, Interesting)
My thoughts exactly!
Yes a degree in liberal arts or religion isn't gonna carry you far... and yes there are extreme cases of CS majors flipping burgers and multi-mullionaire highschool dropouts, but in general I still think getting a degree results in a better job and more money later on in life. Good to see an article not trying to "rock the establishment"!
It maybe one of those bad corrolation dealies (people who can suck it up through a degree would have done better either way) .. but I suspect the paper still helps.
Value decreasing? (Score:3, Interesting)
In 2002 the US Census Bureau calculated that the value of an average degree over a lifetime was $2.1 million [census.gov]
Has the value dropped that much in 10 years? Taking inflation into account, the value's gone from roughly $2.6 million down to less than $1 million? I know we're comparing average to median here, but I have a hard time believing Warren Buffett et al are skewing the numbers by a factor of 2.5+.
Re:Finally some sanity (Score:3, Interesting)
Wealthier than average people are driven to succeed. They're driven to finish college and they are driven to find a good job. There is certainly correlation between education and income, but I see no reason to believe the formal education itself has any bearing on ones chances at financial success. It seems that the attributes one has drives them to finish college, then make lots of money. However, if you removed the option of college, they would still be driven to make lots of money.
Re:Q... (Score:5, Interesting)
Develop a technical bent and become a technical writer?
Develop a journalistic bent and become a journalist?
Become a secretary, writing out reports on behalf of, and to be read by, people with other skills?
There's an astonishingly large number of very bad writers out there and the one thing a BA in English MIGHT be able to convince people of is that you're able to string sentences together.
This. (Score:4, Interesting)
Frankly, it's taking a fair amount of discipline not to get four or five degrees, simply because I haven't run out of fields which absolutely fascinate me. Along the way, I'm finding very few classes I don't actually enjoy, and it's certainly more fun than real work.
If I was just in it for the money, I'd be a mainframe expert -- it's easy, but there are few enough of them (because no one wants to do it) that it's also very well paid. But then I would hate my life. As it is, I'm likely to end up in some sort of software development, but that's not going to stop me from studying the more interesting bits of biology and cosmology, because the universe is awesome.
Pretty interesting study, (Score:5, Interesting)
once you get past the race and gender tables. The actual facts about the comparative values of various majors starts around Table 30.
The problem with looking at this from a race/gender perspective is that the data tells us almost nothing about why there is a difference between these categories. For example, the study reveals that Petroleum is a specialty major, that 100% of the people who majored in it are men, and that this major has the highest median income.
OK, facts noted. Does this mean that men are better suited to be Petroleum Engineers than women? There's no way to tell from this data set. Maybe women would be great petroleum engineers, but they don't choose it because it sounds like it would be uninteresting or unpleasant or too inflexible.
What we _can learn from the data is that if you want a major that will bring in a steady, terrific income, Petroleum Engineering and other specialty majors are pretty awesome. The Study makes it pretty clear that people with "hard" majors make about twice as much as people with "soft" majors, so if money is your thing, pick a hard major. Put another way, if what you love to do is a soft major, prepare yourself for a life where you will never be tempted by the siren call of enormous wealth.
Re:Trade-school mentality (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Trade-school mentality (Score:5, Interesting)
"If making more money isn't the point of a college degree, why should the taxpayers subsidize you?"
Thomas Jefferson -- "I think by far the most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of knowledge among the people. No other sure foundation can be devised, for the preservation of freedom and happiness...Preach, my dear Sir, a crusade against ignorance; establish & improve the law for educating the common people. Let our countrymen know that the people alone can protect us against these evils [tyranny, oppression, etc.] and that the tax which will be paid for this purpose is not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings, priests and nobles who will rise up among us if we leave the people in ignorance." [Letter to George Wythe, 1786 August 13]
More Jefferson quotes on education: http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/quotations-education [monticello.org]
Re:Trade-school mentality (Score:5, Interesting)
A college degree is about making you an educated individual. I had a friend in college, who admitted that all she wanted to do is be a house wife. But for her, 10 grand a year in tuition was worth it, because she didn't want to be a moron for the rest of her life. What kind of role model are you to your kids if you can't communicate well, don't understand history, can't appreciate literature and art? What kind of voter are you if you can't think critically, or if you don't understand politics and science? Can you manage your financial decisions without and understanding of math and business? Think about what a better neighbor, parent, and traveler you would be, if you could speak a foreign language.
Your technical degree can make you all the money in the world, but actually being educated is what will improve life for you, your family, and your neighbors. Ideally high school would teach you these core skills, but kids just aren't mature enough at that age to do it.
Re:Trade-school mentality (Score:3, Interesting)
Case in point: finance. Back when I started college ('06), finance was the way to be. Sure, banking wasn't what it was in the 80's, but the industry had recovered significantly since the early 00's and there appeared to be no end in sight to growth. I remember reading statistics that over 50% of people in my business school majored in finance. How could 50% of kids in a top-25 ugrad business school be wrong? As an 18 year old, how was I supposed to predict that the demise of the financial services industry would occur during my 4 years in college? But that's what happened.
I've heard that the same thing is now happening in nursing. I imagine the same will soon happen to accounting, medicine, and law, if it has not already begun. You may claim to be an "open-minded" "smart" liberal arts student, but if you're like most people, when it comes down to getting serious about a career path, you are incredibly close-minded, and you probably only consider going into 5-6 professions, while ignoring all other possibilities.
Re:And the ones without job!!! (Score:4, Interesting)
Yeah, the methodology on this sucks. They're counting everybody up to 65 years old, and those over 45-50 went to school when it was cheap, easily available side jobs would pay your tuition, and you could have your student loans (if any) discharged in bankruptcy. The relevant measure today is "will I be able to make my loan payments throughout my first decade out of school?", "how fucked will I be if it turns out I can't?", "how long will it take me to pay off those loans while still eating everyday and sleeping indoors?", "what is the net present value of all the payments I will make over that period?" and "does the data show that this particular course of study at this particular school is a better investment of time and money than other opportunities?".
I think looking at those questions, for many of those currently contemplating college it really isn't a good deal on the terms offered today. The education bubble is going to burst someday - it isn't affordable, the schools and student-loan pushers are bilking the students as hard as they can, and one can get a better education by reading and doing, and more prestige by teaming up to start a company. Why take a mortgage out on your brain so you can beg employers for the opportunity to be treated like a Dilbert?
Re:unemployable majors? (Score:4, Interesting)
There are lots of jobs out there that open up just because you have a degree. Several of the managers at my work turned out to have weird degrees like art history rather than business. Even though a friend of mine is good with computer and has experience, he was only eligible for his current job because he had a history degree also. My uncle with a degree in fine arts ended up the plant manager because he had a degree and the other candidates didn't. While the most important things in getting a job are connections, experience, and then education as last, a degree, any degree, is often a bullet point on many jobs and if nothing else will put you ahead of those without. If you have the connections and the experience, just about any degree of suitable level will do.
Re:Finally some sanity (Score:4, Interesting)
So what's the moral? Right now, we're coming off the finance bubble, where the ideal graduate had a degree either in business or communications, or economics, or english, or something social. The bubble really burst about 2-3 years ago, so all the folks who went in before it burst who came in with an expectation that a fluff degree and the right social connections were all that was required (and who consequently glutted the B-schools and the aforementioned other departments with fad-chasing n00bz) are coming out now with little do show for their time.
Re:Finally some sanity (Score:4, Interesting)
there are tons of well paying and stable engineering jobs that do not require formal education
In the US, all engineering jobs require a college degree. That's the result of lobbying from the engineering professional societies to define engineering as "those who have a PE certified by us and only us, oh and people that actually run the engines on trains, since they had that title long before any of our professional organizations were created."