House Websites Jammed After Obama Debt Speech 1042
Hugh Pickens writes "CNN reports that House switchboards have been flooded by phone calls — nearly twice the normal average — and hit with an unusual volume of constituent e-mails as voters voice their concern over the worsening debt-ceiling crisis. At least 104 of 279 congressional websites surveyed by CNN were down or had experienced slow connections on Tuesday, after President Obama's speech Monday night. In his address to the nation, Obama called on the American people to 'make your voice heard.' House Speaker John Boehner's website responded with a 'Server Too Busy' or 'Bad Request (Invalid Hostname)' message during parts of the day. His switchboard reported as many as 150-300 callers on hold, wanting to leave their thoughts for the speaker. House Chief Administrative Officer spokesman Dan Weiser said that lawmakers' websites and phone lines began to sag with the traffic on Monday night. 'Last night we had some website problems. ... There was some websites that were hosted by outside vendors that had slowness, sluggishness, people had trouble getting in. And that was rectified early this morning.'"
Rewrite the Constitution or face default! (Score:5, Insightful)
This is extortion. This is anti-American. Rep Mike Lee Admits Extortion. [youtube.com]
In specific Tea Party Republicans are threatening to put the nation into default, holding the entire US economy and millions of lives hostage to pass their amendment to the Constitution. They want the nation to default because it will boost recruitment into their militias. They want a civil war and are apparently beyond compromise. They cannot be reasoned with apparently.
Who are these people? Before they called themselves the Tea Party they called themselves the John Birch Society. [wikipedia.org] and before they were called the John Birch society they called themselves the American Liberty League. [wikipedia.org]
This is the same American Liberty League that was behind the Business Plot. [wikipedia.org]
The Business Plot was the attempt to overthrow the US government and in specific overthrow FDR and install a fascist dictatorship. The history of that can be seen by watching this video. [youtube.com]
Read about Smedley Darlington Butler and how he single handedly saved the nation from a coup. Now that we have a black President the forces looking to have a coup have grown stronger than ever. And these groups hate the feds and the government because these are the ones investigating them. The solution? Tax cuts, smaller government, which means less FBI investigations into them. [youtube.com]
And btw I expect "them" to rate my post down into oblivion. Expect to see it rated as flamebait, overrated or something else.
Will it make a difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems like the more extreme Republicans that are running things in the House don't have a political philosophy so much as they have a religion. It's hard to convince a zealot of anything.
Pay attention, kids: we're experiencing history! This is another stage in the long decline of the United States.
Re:Will it make a difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is another stage in the long decline of the United States.
If we keep spending at the rate we are, it'll be a much faster decline.
Re:Will it make a difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, please. The Dems, as usual, are bending over backwards to negotiate.
The now-standard Republican "negotiating" tactic is to throw a tantrum until they get everything they want. Compromise is when the Dems agree with the Republicans.
Re:Rewrite the Constitution or face default! (Score:5, Insightful)
This is how democracy works, FYI. It isn't extortion, it is how that pesky legislative process works. Troubling, I know.
So it's okay for that scumbag to threaten the lives of seniors, of poor people, of veterans, of anyone by threatening to let the nation default which means the checks wont be sent out to them? What about troops serving right now who are risking their lives so that ignorant congressman can safely speak like that? What about law enforcement who protects scumbags like him from being robbed and preyed upon?
Do you realize he's not only threatening all their jobs, but he's threatening to withhold their pay that they earned fair and square. He is doing this so that he can score political points and try to pass a Constitutional amendment which has no hope in hell of passing. So what he is doing is attempting to extort the entire nation.
If you think that is how democracy works, maybe when people like him call the police the police should decide "you know, we aren't going to keep you safe anymore unless you agree to write this bill for us.", in fact maybe the whole government could do the same thing to these congressmen. Then it would be called blackmail and extortion right? I guess it's not extortion if a Republican congressman does it?
Re:Will it make a difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes. On the other hand, people seem to want things like Social Security and Medicare, so a rational decision would be to raise taxes to pay for those things people want, and to reduce spending on things people don't want, such as unfunded wars to build friendly nations.
Re:games (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Rewrite the Constitution or face default! (Score:4, Insightful)
I forgot which US president gathered up US citizens and placed them in camps? Which president summarily executed American citizens without benefit of trial? Oh that's right it was FDR, sounds like we already had a dictatorship. As for worrying about FBI investigations, given how well the Justice Dept is handling Operation Gunrunner no one should worry about investigations for a while.
Oh Great (Score:4, Insightful)
Now we're going to Slashdot them too!
Re:too big to fail? (Score:5, Insightful)
Or, just maybe, we could not be extremists and try to rejigger the system to bring it back into balance.
Nah, destroy it all. What could possibly go wrong?
Re:Will it make a difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
If the spending problems were a general problem, and generally flagged, I'd have less problem. But it's not. The Republicans tend to show up as deficit hawks during every Democratic administration, but during Republican administrations such things go completely silent. Vice President Dick Cheney is on record as saying something to the tune that the deficit is irrelevant. During the GWB years the deficit spiked, due to tax cuts, 2 wars run "off the books", and the unfunded Medicare prescription drug coverage program.
For the moment, I'm not commenting about deficit budgeting itself, or about any of the things done during the Bush/Cheney years. I'm simply commenting about the change-of-tune. This pattern of deficit-hawk behavior goes back before those 2 administrations, as well.
Re:Will it make a difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
People seem to want social security because they've paid into it their entire lives without having an alternative of opting out. It was supposed to be self sustainable.
Look at the taxes over the past 50 years. Back in 1981 the top 5% of wealthy americans paid a 70% tax rate. How come now in 2011 they pay less taxes than people making 1/10th their yearly earnings? Something is wrong with that. Look at all the tax breaks for the wealthy, lets start there. Then lets look at our out of control spending.
Re:games (Score:5, Insightful)
Hi, you seem to be using the FALSE EQUIVALENCE fallacy!
Let me bring you up to speed: two long and incompetently-waged wars kept of the budget books for political reasons, at the same time we had a tax cut. Nobody's ever cut taxes during a war, let alone two, because that's a really fucking stupid thing to do.
In the latest episode of the Washington Follies, the Republicans demanded big cuts in spending. Fine, say the Dems, here's $3 trillion in spending cuts But we want $1 trilliion in eliminated tax subsidies and raised taxes on the rich. NONONONONO, scream the Republicans, TAXES BAD TAXES BAD.
That's not "durr, they're equally bad".
Re:Will it make a difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
If we keep spending at the rate we are, it'll be a much faster decline.
Only if we don't tax enough to cover the cost of the spending. Plenty of countries have governments that spend far more than the US, but they make up for it by taxing more. And I'm not talking about Third World countries, I'm talking about places like Canada, Germany, and the UK.
Another thing that I've noticed regularly in discussions of federal government budgets is that it's much easier to rail against "spending" than it is to pick out what would actually be cut. So what spending would you get rid of? Social Security and Medicare (which you probably have a family member collecting on right now)? The military? Food stamps? Unemployment insurance? Section 8 housing? Public schools for your kids? Environmental protection that keeps nearby businesses from making your home unlivable? OSHA or MSHA, which reduce dramatically your chance of death or injury on the job? Highways?
Re:Will it make a difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
It /was/ more-or-less self-sustaining, it's just that the Feds stole money from the trust fund to pay for other things. Because that was easier than raising taxes directly.
Re:Rewrite the Constitution or face default! (Score:3, Insightful)
Debts will get paid, the US will and cannot default because there is more than enough income to pay for our interest to our creditors.
It is how it works, this is how legislation gets passed.
Re:Rewrite the Constitution or face default! (Score:4, Insightful)
Democracy is based on debating ideas, compromising and coming to an agreement.
The showboating that these congressmen are involved in right now is not democracy, and runs contrary to their duty to serve the nation.
Re:Will it make a difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
And increasing the debt ceiling only gives the addict a little more dope. It doesn't prevent the inevitable reckoning that we are on the verge of. The government has maxed out every credit card they have. The Federal government is broke and they want another credit card.
The only point of this D vs R debate is who is going to get the blame. It has nothing to do with changing the inevitable outcome. Thats what I find profoundly uninteresting about the whole topic... not really interested in who gets the blame, and its way too long until the next elections for it to have any effect. So, its all basically a bunch of noise.
The titanic is headed full speed ahead into the iceberg. One side wants to increase speed to flank, so the coal men earn a little more money. The other side want to decrease speed to 3/4 to save coal, and to embarass the helmsman. Everyone is eventually gonna drown anyway.
Re:Rewrite the Constitution or face default! (Score:4, Insightful)
Sorry, but your rhetoric doesn't fly. It wasn't this Congressman who threatened the lives of seniors, poor people or veterans, it was Obama. The fact of the matter is that if the debt ceiling is not raised, there is no reason for the federal government to default. There is, also, no reason for the federal government to not send out SS checks or pay the military.
I have a question for you, what happens if they increase the debt ceiling and no one wants to buy the new bonds? That day is going to come sooner or later. Isn't it a good idea to start reining in spending now, while people are still willing to buy U.S. government bonds rather than wait for that day?
Re:Rewrite the Constitution or face default! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Rewrite the Constitution or face default! (Score:4, Insightful)
Social Security had a surplus "During 2009, total benefits of $686 billion were paid out versus income (taxes and interest) of $807 billion, a $121 billion annual surplus"
Can't find medicare quickly, but will look.
Debt payments are around $189 billion
Wiki aggregates it nicely with all the standard references http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget [wikipedia.org]
There *IS* more than enough money to pay these things.
Re:Will it make a difference? (Score:2, Insightful)
Of course we also need to seriously overhaul our tax code to eliminate the volumes of handouts to special interests and cut the huge waste that is our foreign military occupations. In the end though, its the exponential SS and medicare/medicaid liabilities that will kill us.
Re:Will it make a difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally, I want social security - as a concept, not my social security - because I want to feel like I live in a civilized country. Not because of any money I may have paid into it so far.
Re:Will it make a difference? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Rewrite the Constitution or face default! (Score:5, Insightful)
You think that's bad? You can do something. It's worse watching from the sidelines. I'm in another country and can't do squat about the craziness you guys are starting by debating whether or not to continue paying your credit card bill's minimum payment. It's ultimately your business, of course, and you can tell the rest of the world to PFO (damn nosy neighbors meddling in USA internal affairs), but when the financial health of the USA is so intertwined with the rest of the world, it does become cause for legitimate global concern. The rest of the world cares about the decisions you guys are making, and the people in the USA should worry about this fact greatly. Because the obvious interpretation whether you do manage sort things out reasonably in the next little while or not will be: "Divest in the USA, because they can't keep their financial house in order anymore." As Obama has suggested, kicking the can down the road for 6 months and then going through this all over again, and again after that, does not bode well for future investment in the country.
I'm sympathetic and hope you guys sort things out, but, sheesh, get your act together. The numbers don't lie. You have to do something. Get on with it. This is going to affect a large part of the world because the rest of us have banked on the until-now-unquestioned idea that the USA is a reliable country when it comes to paying off its financial debts. Change that impression and people will invest elsewhere instead. It will be disruptive in the short term, but it will eventually be sorted out, with the exception that the USA will lose the special status in the financial realm that it has had for roughly the last century.
Let me put it another way. The rest of the world doesn't particularly care what the underlying political causes of this impasse are. That's your business. What we care about is that usually the USA has been able to put aside the worst kind of politics and do the right thing when necessary. You are a practical if fractious bunch, and that's why you are such a vibrant and successful democracy. If that willingness to put aside political differences for the sake of practicality has changed, well, a lot of things are going to be reassessed -- probably not in your favor. And that would be sad. Kind of like seeing your favorite uncle Sam succumb to dementia as they get older.
Re:Rewrite the Constitution or face default! (Score:5, Insightful)
You do realize that the responsibility for creating the budget rests in the house, right? You know the one that already passed this year's fiscal budget, and is now playing games with our economy by giving themselves a chance to vote on that same fiscal budget twice. This is not a dictatorship. This is a republic and people seem to forget their civics lessons in their zeal to hang the blame solely on the President. Don't tell me you attended the same retarded civics class with Michelle Bachman.
Personally I believe the president should issue an executive order raising the arbitrary debt ceiling. Section 4 of the 14th amendment requires such drastic action since it states that "The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned." In other words, the republicans already authorized this year's debt when they passed the fiscal budget, and they are violating the constitution by refusing to make sure we have enough funds (from both taxes and credit) to meet those obligations.
I have many times. They are individuals that may have good intentions but are easily led astray. They arguments have little basis in fact, and their misinterpretations of the constitution is horrifying.
Re:Rewrite the Constitution or face default! (Score:1, Insightful)
The so-called "Business Plot" was an invention of Smedley Butler, who provided no supporting documentation.
The only man installing fascism in the United States was FDR himself, through the New Deal, which attempted to mirror the economic policies of Mussolini's Italy.
Re:Rewrite the Constitution or face default! (Score:2, Insightful)
The very point of this whole matter is that at the moment the United States do not have enough income to pay all their obligations (to their own people and the creditors), so they need to either increase their debt or fail to meet all their current obligations in some way. The Republicans want to cut the obligations (which is like saying "you're not going to get this anyway, so we might as well not promise that you get it"), the Democrats want to take on more debt. If neither happens, the total obligations exceed the income. Then it is only a matter of choosing which obligations to default on.
The gang of six and the Democrats basically agreed to cut spending and raise taxes. Republicans rejected that idea because they want to cut spending but not even attempt to pay off the debt. They just want to use this to keep Obama hostage and not actually solve the deficit.
Re:Will it make a difference? (Score:4, Insightful)
And there are solutions being suggested, but they'll never pass the Party of No.
Raising the maximum income for having to pay into SS, for example, or alternately raising the retirement age a bit.
Re:Rewrite the Constitution or face default! (Score:1, Insightful)
You think that's bad? You can do something. It's worse watching from the sidelines. I'm in another country and can't do squat about the craziness you guys are starting by debating whether or not to continue paying your credit card bill's minimum payment. It's ultimately your business, of course, and you can tell the rest of the world to PFO (damn nosy neighbors meddling in USA internal affairs), but when the financial health of the USA is so intertwined with the rest of the world, it does become cause for legitimate global concern. The rest of the world cares about the decisions you guys are making, and the people in the USA should worry about this fact greatly. Because the obvious interpretation whether you do manage sort things out reasonably in the next little while or not will be: "Divest in the USA, because they can't keep their financial house in order anymore." As Obama has suggested, kicking the can down the road for 6 months and then going through this all over again, and again after that, does not bode well for future investment in the country.
I'm sympathetic and hope you guys sort things out, but, sheesh, get your act together. The numbers don't lie. You have to do something. Get on with it. This is going to affect a large part of the world because the rest of us have banked on the until-now-unquestioned idea that the USA is a reliable country when it comes to paying off its financial debts. Change that impression and people will invest elsewhere instead. It will be disruptive in the short term, but it will eventually be sorted out, with the exception that the USA will lose the special status in the financial realm that it has had for roughly the last century.
Let me put it another way. The rest of the world doesn't particularly care what the underlying political causes of this impasse are. That's your business. What we care about is that usually the USA has been able to put aside the worst kind of politics and do the right thing when necessary. You are a practical if fractious bunch, and that's why you are such a vibrant and successful democracy. If that willingness to put aside political differences for the sake of practicality has changed, well, a lot of things are going to be reassessed -- probably not in your favor. And that would be sad. Kind of like seeing your favorite uncle Sam succumb to dementia as they get older.
If you haven't noticed, the US congress has already been hijacked by crazies.
I would hope these crazies aren't so crazy that they force foreigners such as yourself to "do something", because I don't want the chaos that would result. I'm not in control, I'm a peasant, a peon, and unfortunately neither are the congressmen, as they are all puppets being blackmailed and commanded on what to say and how to vote by corporations.
Re:We're a sinking ship (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, except that lowering taxes doesn't seem to grow the economy. Certainly not enough to make up for the lowered rate. Too bad. It's all sensible except for that point.
Anyway, the top 20% pays 86% of the taxes, maybe, but don't they own an equally large (or larger) share of the wealth and income?
When I was a kid, in the 1960s, tax rates were way over 50%. Tax rates in England peaked at 90%. While 90% marginal tax rates will certainly hurt your economy, it's not at all clear than 30%, 40%, 50% rates will do much damage. If we can manage to spend some of that on useful infrastructure things, it may even be good in the long run. Just think! We could have a well-educated, healthy workforce, streets and networks that work, et cetera.
I couldn't agree with Obama more.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Over the past 5 years, our federal debt has increased by $3.5 trillion to $8.6 trillion.That is “trillion” with a “T.” That is money that we have borrowed from the Social Security trust fund, borrowed from China and Japan, borrowed from American taxpayers. And over the next 5 years, between now and 2011, the President’s budget will increase the debt by almost another $3.5 trillion.
Numbers that large are sometimes hard to understand. Some people may wonder why they matter. Here is why: This year, the Federal Government will spend $220 billion on interest. That is more money to pay interest on our national debt than we’ll spend on Medicaid and the State Children’s Health Insurance Program. That is more money to pay interest on our debt this year than we will spend on education, homeland security, transportation, and veterans benefits combined. It is more money in one year than we are likely to spend to rebuild the devastated gulf coast in a way that honors the best of America.
And the cost of our debt is one of the fastest growing expenses in the Federal budget. This rising debt is a hidden domestic enemy, robbing our cities and States of critical investments in infrastructure like bridges, ports, and levees; robbing our families and our children of critical investments in education and health care reform; robbing our seniors of the retirement and health security they have counted on.
Every dollar we pay in interest is a dollar that is not going to investment in America’s priorities.
Senator Barack Obama
Senate Floor Speech on Public Debt
March 16, 2006
-- Amazing how things change...
Re:March on Washington! "We demand more debt!" (Score:3, Insightful)
Uh, we already have the debt. We already spent the money. That part was easy, all those trillion dollar packages that nobody read had a whole lot of support.
This is deciding whether or not we are going to pay the bills we already owe. That is why not paying would be so catastrophic.
It's not a bankrupt nation, it's a deadbeat nation.
Call your mortgage holder, tell them you have the money to pay, but you just arent going to anymore, and fuck them. It's a lot different than calling your mortgage broker and saying you cant pay due to legit hardship, and want to work out a plan to stay current.
The first will destroy your credit instantly and get you hauled into court fast enough to make your head spin. People unwilling to negotiate with their creditors in good faith receive little mercy.
The second is what responsible adults do.
Re:You've just revealed yourself as an extremist (Score:4, Insightful)
"The Republican plan would allow Obama to increase the debt ceiling by $2.4T"
It's not the President's job to increase the debt ceiling. The cowards are just looking for a way to get around their blood oath AND be able to score points in the next election, pretty much the definition of dirty pool.
Re:Rewrite the Constitution or face default! (Score:1, Insightful)
Besides, it is not the Tea Partiers blocking progress. Boehner and McConnell's plan was a compromise that met some of the President's goals. Then the President changed the requirements.
The Americans wanted "Hope and Change". Sadly, they bought into the non-specifics of the ever-Present senator from Chicago. (Not that the Republicans nominated anyone worthy in 2008 - we got a liberal vs democrat for that general POTUS election). In 2010, the Americans sent a message and as many representatives as they could to DC for the real change they wanted. Can Obama blame these "Tea Party" representatives for doing exactly what they told their constituents they were going to do? Should those representatives do anything different? No.
Let's hope in 2012, we can get more representatives in office that will put their foot down to the extravagant DC spending, those who will think more like the Taxed Enough Already Party with less government, more power to the people.
Re:Rewrite the Constitution or face default! (Score:1, Insightful)
"Then the President changed the requirements. "
That is completly false, as is much of your ost. Did you just copy and paste that?
"t their foot down to the extravagant DC spending, "
See, that's a meaningless emotional statement. It doesn't help. What extravagant spending?
"Taxed Enough Already Party" AKA Don't pay our bills party.
Another meaningless statement. Taxed enough compared to what? What is that based on? Everything I have read the Tea party has zero logic behind what that means.
There nothing but emotional and strawman fallacys of a party.
Re:Rewrite the Constitution or face default! (Score:4, Insightful)
This is how democracy works, FYI. It isn't extortion, it is how that pesky legislative process works. Troubling, I know.
No. It is not how democracy was intended to work. You do not threaten to harm the country if your demands are not met.
Re:Will it make a difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
The programs don't depend on exponential growth. They depend on revenue. If that revenue is not adequately or accurately adjusted to match reality, then you will get a shortfall.
But neither SS nor our tax code accurately reflect the wealth distribution or population demographics. A mere 20% of the population controls the vast majority of wealth in this country. Our population base has been in decline because it is too much of a financial strain to have more than one or two kids. Wages have been stagnant for most Americans for at least a decade. And thanks to the "job creators", jobs have been moving overseas leaving lower paying jobs (or no jobs) in their place, further diminishing revenues of any sort. This doesn't even take into account the various tax loopholes, dodges, and other tricks those with the bucks (people and corporations) can afford to employ to avoid their tax burden.
We can fund SS. We can even fund our gross bloated unnecessary budget. There is plenty of revenue available to pay for it and more. The problem is nobody wants to raise taxes to levels necessary to cover the expenses, nor do those with the wealth want to pay for it.
Greed is what will kill the US, not any particular set of defense, social, or discretionary spending. It's why any balanced budget amendment will never ever pass congress. It's why congress never comes up with long term solutions. It's why people who don't need social program assistance think it's all a big waste of money and why "those lazy welfare bastards can't work like the rest of us".
The US has a GDP of around $15 trillion. Our tax revenue is $2.1 trillion. Our latest budget is $3.5 trillion. We have plenty of room to cover our bills. We CHOOSE not to.
Re:Will it make a difference? (Score:4, Insightful)
>They are pyramid schemes that depend on an exponential population growth that hasn't been happening because people just aren't fucking like they used to.
What the hell are you talking about?
Social security is a pension plan where people pay into it their whole lives and get money back when they retire, how is that a pyramid scheme? Exponential growth? Good job pulling that out of your ass.
The only flaw with medicare/medicaid system is that it has not been paired with a rise in taxes. If you're going to provide medical coverage for a large group of people, they need to be taxed accordingly for the service provided (like every other sane country does). The solution isn't to get rid of the programs, since both are very useful programs, the solution is to actually pay for them with appropriate taxation.
The problem with the US right now isn't "big government", it's the idiot electorate that wants tons of services and doesn't want to pay for it, so they keep electing people who promise to be able to pull that off somehow (which of course they can't).
Bullshit. Wars that cost trillions of dollars will be the end of us. Get rid of social security and watch how fast it plunges the US into mass poverty as the elderly suddenly can't pay any of their bills.
Re:And what about contractors? (Score:5, Insightful)
The issue I take with that line of thought is it ignores what the debt ceiling is. The ceiling isn't spending the money. The budget is. When congress passed it's budget they know when and how much the ceiling was going to have to be increased. In the past decade the biggest factors for increased debt (according to bloomberg business news) was the Wars, the medicare drug program, and TARP. All of which the speaker, Eric Cantor, and Senate minority lead McConnell voted for. They helped run this tab up, and now they are threatening to walk out on the bill.
Re:Rewrite the Constitution or face default! (Score:5, Insightful)
I had a small amount of sympathy for them.
Then I went to one of their rallies and saw the raw racism and insanity of their followers.
"Taxed enough already" - you do realize taxes are the lowest that they've been since the 1950's [usatoday.com], right? That the "top income earners" actually, after you count up all the loopholes and compare how much of their "income" actually gets taxed at the much lower Capital Gains rates, actually pay less in taxes than the middle class do?
This is the problem today. There is so much disinformation and misinformation spewed out there by Rush, Beck, Faux News, and the rest of the insane nutwing noise machine that large numbers of people are willing to give them the "well if even if a little of what they say is true" benefit of the doubt. And then we get people like you who wind up with "sympathy" for the Tea Partiers because you aren't informed enough to realize how full of crap the Tea Party is.
Re:Campaign Promises (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Rewrite the Constitution or face default! (Score:2, Insightful)
Actually, of the 47% of Americans who legally pay no income tax (or even receive a CREDIT from the Treasury), very few are unselfish enough to join a Tea Party group.