Marking 10 Years Since 9/11/2001 804
10 years ago today, coordinated terrorist attacks on New York City and Washington, D.C. killed nearly 3,000 people. It wasn't the first terrorist attack directed against the U.S., or even on U.S. soil, but it was the deadliest, and came at a time of relative peace. Probably most people reading this remember where and how they heard the news. We've often discussed the consequences of the attack: security cordons, ID checks and metal detectors where none existed before, a reexamination of how U.S. policy affects international perception and attitudes, and the encroachment of surveillance policies and technology, to name a few. Today, we don’t want to inundate you with links to tributes and retrospectives, so we’ll offer the only thing we can: a look back at how the day unfolded here. Our thoughts are with everyone who lost friends and family members.
fuck the usa (Score:1, Insightful)
9/11 every day in Iraq
and the saddest thing (Score:5, Insightful)
Isn't that 3000 ppl died, that happens also in car accidents every few months.
It's that USA went from being a respected member of the world community to a nation hated even among its allies. A nation that things it owns the whole world, can torture other country's ppls, can force them to act in ways it wants, and that is in everyone else's face.
It was the day that marked the beginning of the end for the USA.
Re:But (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:and the saddest thing (Score:5, Insightful)
My thoughts are with everyone who lost anyone (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually I was reading /. when I heard about it.
My thoughts are with everyone who lost friends and family members in the attack.
Fuck religion! This is what happens, over and over.
Re:But (Score:4, Insightful)
what you propose is big-endian which is good because lexicographical sort works in the expected way. Little-endian (European style) is OK too. Middle endian is just silly.
Re:My thoughts are with everyone who lost anyone (Score:5, Insightful)
The terrorists won, beyond their wildest dreams (Score:5, Insightful)
They got us good. They caused the equivalent of a cytokine storm, a massive autoimmune response. We lost important freedoms, likely for good, and bankrupted ourselves financially and otherwise. The world hates us, our economy is in the toilet, the government is hopelessly corrupt, and we STILL haven't won, because no one really wins asymmetric warfare short of turning the insurgents and their country into a smoking glass crater. They did to us what we did to the Soviets not 20 years ago, and we fell for it.
My thoughts are with... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:My thoughts are with everyone who lost anyone (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:My thoughts are with everyone who lost anyone (Score:5, Insightful)
Religion doesn't cause war, but is used by people who aren't religious but pretend to be. All wars are for power and wealth, started and waged by sociopaths.
Huh? What? "Reexamination"? (Score:3, Insightful)
But keep in mind that unlike the others, Paul as ALWAYS been saying these things, for 30 years, while those others are just trying to get your vote, then will do whatever the hell they want if they get in office. Kind of like Obama.
Re:and the saddest thing (Score:1, Insightful)
Road Fatailities US
~ 33,000 per year * 10 years = 330,000
Iraq war - estimated 1,000,000 deaths (nothing to do with 9-11, but many believed so in the run up)
Worried about terrorism? More people die from dog bites.
Re:and the saddest thing (Score:5, Insightful)
Hmm, no. Car accident statistics dont get worse if you ignore them.
On the other hand ignoring something as big 9/11 would have emboldened OBL and invite him to make the next one even bigger...
It would have made us look like paper tigers. The appearance of weakness is the sort of thing that tempts our enemies to start wars.
Re:My thoughts are with everyone who lost anyone (Score:1, Insightful)
Day of Mourning (Score:5, Insightful)
This should be a day of mourning, not just because of the people who died (one of my managers at the time, Vladimir Tomasevic, I am lucky not to have been there too), but it's a day of mourning for the liberties and freedoms lost across USA but also across the entire freaking world. The entire world today looks more and more like a crazy toon town, with cops with machine guns everywhere, insane laws, TSA, just general loss of privacy, liberty, decency, everything, and this should also include the economic calamity that obviously worsened due to the insane response to the events.
This kind of response is not about fighting crime, which terrorism basically is. This kind of response is about destroying the human rights and freedoms, if that still means anything to anybody.
I wish to see return to normalcy and government non-intervention, so I think voting for Ron Paul is the obvious good first step. If the man understands one thing - it's liberty and the other thing is economy.
Also, WTF, USA? Where are 10 towers in place of those 2, 10 that are 5 times as tall?
Re:My thoughts are with everyone who lost anyone (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree it's wrong to blame religion in general for this, But the attacks were religiously motivated.
They were conducted by a religious fanatical group, al-Qaeda.
The stated reasons from al-Qaeda for the attacks were threefold:
1) U.S Support of Israel
This could be religious or non-religious, but for al-Qaeda it was probably a religious reason)
2) U.S. presence in Saudi Arabia
This was definitely a religious motivation. al-Qaeda believs that the Koran forbids a long term presence by non-Muslims so close to Mecca.
3) U.S. / Western sanctions against Iraq.
While al-Qaeda had no love for Saddam Hussein, they still listed this as a reason. I've never heard an explanation for why this is a reason, but I presume it's because they perceived the sanctions as harming Muslims living in Iraq.
So religion played more than a small role in the motivations. These statements were made before the attacks (years before) and after.
That said, as an atheist, I still can't make such a sweeping statement that religion is *always* bad, or that it causes things like this. It can motivate people both ways, like politics and lots of other things.
Re:10 years later (Score:5, Insightful)
First, thank you for your service to our country.
Second, fuck you for joining out of bloodlust. Service is a duty, not an excuse to become a heathen. Our military doesn't exist to settle feuds. It exists to uphold principles and rules of law, and to protect our nation from existential threats. Do you honestly think terrorist attacks from a landlocked nation that hasn't had a stable central government in three decades is capable of destroying our national sovereignty? Our failure to use restraint and common sense has cost this country its principles, the lives of your fellow soldiers, and trillions of dollars, all without making the world any safer from terrorism.
In short, your ignorance is more dangerous and has done more damage to this country than fundamentalist Islam.
As a citizen who is paying your salary, I wish I could fire you. You don't represent me or my values.
Re:fuck the usa (Score:4, Insightful)
Agreed.
100,000 civilians died already in that war and you NEVER hear the USA mentioning them. Even though they started that war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War
It's always "Thanks to our troops for your service" but the civilians of Iraq are not even acknowledged. I'm not even saying the US should apologize but they never even mention those civilian victims, as if they didn't exist!
Today the USA want the whole world to pity them. Well no, 9/11 was a tragedy but I won't have any sympathy for people who constantly ignore the innocent victims of their war. It's sick.
The responses OP received (and no doubt I will receive) just show how the US are callous, have no respect for foreigners whose lives they destroy, and never, ever admit any wrongdoing whatsoever. You don't want us to spoil your day by talking about people dying in Iraq, do you? Today should be all about America day, right? And those Iraqi civilians they can be mentioned any other day of the year, just like they have been so far, can't they? Oh wait, they have never been mentioned by the USA... Guess today is their day then!
For the rest of the world, 9/11 should be Fuck America Day and it should be so until the USA own up to their responsibilities towards the victims of the Iraq War.
Keep Calm and Carry On (Score:3, Insightful)
wow, on the oklahoma city bombing day (Score:5, Insightful)
who did you want to invade and kill?
Re:Nice summary, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
What about all the people USA has slaughtered (Score:1, Insightful)
Yeah, you don't remember those here, do you. Every month USA seems to kill more innocent people abroad, in Libya, Iraq, Iran, you name it.
Why not remember those ? Because it's the uncomfortable truth that nobody wants to think about. Everyday more money and resources are spent on military forces that could be used to educate children and help those who suffer, right in your own country. But this is not newsworthy stuff, and the big media is owned by the same people who control the military, so this is not something they want to talk about.
And terrorist attacks ? The facts point more to the fact that the terrorist, the same people who infringe on our human rights more and more every day, scanning our bodies at airports, spreading misinformation and lies and hogging resources that could be spreaded equally to actually create something great, are actually the US government and the people behind them.
Think for yourself, the mainstream media is bullshit and owned by the big money who also are dependent on the oil markets. Throw away your TV, it is the most powerful hypnotic spreader of lies ever inventend. Dismiss Hollywood, as their only task is only to make fiction out of our reality and make people believe that "that only happens in the movies".
THINK FOR YOURSELF. I would have thought Slashdot would even take into account all the controversy regarding 911 and stop just spreading the propaganda that we have been forcefed through all the mainstream sources.
I feel for those who lost loved ones during the attacks. But I have no sympathy for the real culprits behind this occultic mass murder.
Religion (Score:3, Insightful)
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
Short sighted? (Score:2, Insightful)
ours(average US citizen) is pathetically weak and short sighted. though, it's not like we have any direction or a plan to get behind.
Short sighted, eh?
Have you thought of the long term ramifications our invasions? And it's not just the emptying of our coffers (wars are extremely expensive) but it's also the chain reaction over the decades with regards to our foreign policy, economic health, and the liberties of our country.
And the pathetically weak part there .... I have a problem with you and other young people being over there and risking your lives for the stupidity of our elected officials. You may not have a problem with it, but I see it as a horrible waste of talent and life.
Still at War in Iraq (Score:4, Insightful)
The main consequence of the attack was that Bush/Cheney invaded Iraq. It's now over 8 years later, and we're still at war in Iraq. No WMD, no Binladen connection, or any of Bush/Cheney's other lies were ever proven anything but lies. Like "the war will pay for itself [boiseweekly.com]". The Iraq War has cost us well over $3 TRILLION [washingtonpost.com]. It has cost us almost 5000 dead Americans [antiwar.com], over 100,000 wounded Americans, and hundreds of thousands of dead and wounded Iraqis. Not to mention the severe costs of Americans torturing so many people.
We'll memorialize 9/11/2001 for a long time. But 3/19/03? What's that? It's the date the US invaded Iraq. Nobody wants to talk about that, so the war never ends.
Re:and the saddest thing (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:fuck the usa (Score:2, Insightful)
Unfair troll mod requires correction.
Only a completely myopic, brainwashed person without a shred of intellect could possibly think that attacking countless civilians day in and day out is anything but institutionalized terrorism.
Re:fuck the usa (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:fuck the usa (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a little more complicated than that. There are those of us in the USA who recognize that our government takes actions on its own behalf, often unbeknownst to most citizens, that cause strife, violence, and suffering. The US citizens are currently under economic assault from the same banking/government cartel which has launched full wars on the citizens of other countries. Some of us try to raise awareness, but as many have found through history, it's much easier to get people to hate than to get them to look at the failure of their own actions (or inactions).
Ron Paul, for example, is a presidential candidate who is largely mocked by the media, but he has explained publicly and repeatedly that US foreign policy creates the very conditions that foster terrorism - by interfering in other sovereign nations' governments, by having belligerent and aggressive foreign policy, and also by exporting our inflation by taking advantage of the dollar's reserve status. There are many, many things we do that are wrong, and most happen simply because the schools, media, and government don't see it profitable to make sure that the average Joe (who is too busy either working or watching TV) understands these issues. But the two big parties and the media have already decided that nationalism is our country's pastime, and anyone who questions it must be mocked. Other nations have had similar, if more heavy-handed, cooperation between government and media to suppress dissent, no?
I, for one, as an American, have made it a priority to educate my fellow citizens on such issues. I recently explained to a coworker why the Egyptians who revolted against our satrap Mubarak were also angry at us (our support of his regime through money, training, and weapons). He was shocked. He's not a bad guy, he's just too busy to take any serious steps to get the CIA/Pentagon under control.
When you consider how easy it is for the powers that be to quash real change in our democracy (again see Ron Paul), it becomes a question of whether the American people, even if they woke up to the evils our government does, could do anything to change it. We're not unique as a nation, whatever people believe.
A sad day for many reasons (Score:4, Insightful)
There is no doubt this was a tragedy and a sad day for the American people but from an outsiders perspective (an Australian perspective) this is what we saw happening to you guys.
Why has no forensic investigation ever been carried out and scrutinised? Why wasn't OBL tried and humiliated, and made to face his worst fear in front of the American public? I strongly feel that Americans have been denied actual justice and have instead been given a serve of McJustice by media/military. The true strength of Western democracies has been that they are countries run BY RULE OF LAW that has been refined over a roughly 800 year period. If we look at it from that perspective the military look like a very blunt tool, by comparison. Yet it was the tool of first resort. What does it say about our democracy that one of the strongest was so easily subverted?
The consequences of not applying those principles have drawn the U.S into an asymmetrical war that has cost trillions, without actually being able to hit a target of any meaning. I believe many forth amendment rights have practically been abandoned, you have a domestic spy policy now and bills introduced to protect the freedoms of everyday people are slowly being whittled down.
To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin "The constitution in it's current form will not save the United States from Despotism". The American people have been lied to and deceived, I'm ashamed to say in part, by an Australian Media mogul who learned how to do what he is doing to America in my homeland.
Justice delayed, Just denied.
The war that was being waged on America began when the Towers were hit but the enemy has attacked in such a way that the freedoms that protected US citizens have been hit far more severely than those Towers. The institution of democracy was weakened from within at one of the modern cradles of it's creation and now I see it more compromised than it has ever been. Human rights, the bedrock of your enviable Bill of Rights, the true strength of your nation were treated as an inconvenience to circumvented. Yet it's the only weapon capable of disarming a martyr.
Know your enemy, Know yourself, and whilst the truth must be painful for you to hear will you bludgeon to death the friend who has the courage to look you in the face and tell it to you? The one who says, "hey mate, yer acting like a dickhead". How can you possibly win in Iraq and Afghanistan when the real war is in the cathedrals of your institutions by an enemy who is manipulating you so skillfully that you dance willingly to the tune. Stop, friend, before you destroy yourself and ask who the real enemy is, what the true theater of this war is and what forces are at play?
How many of Ben Franklins warnings will you ignore? Why do I, an Australian, have to point out the wisdom of your own founding fathers whose words have been paraphrased ad infinitum;
Those who trade an essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither security nor liberty
Then why America why, do you keep doing it?
Re:I was using Yahoo! News at the time. (Score:5, Insightful)
No we don't.
Yes we are.
No we can't. I run the tech for an energy management equipment/network/software/support company in NYC that cuts energy consumption an average of 20%, mostly in heating oil/gas. The notoriously greedy building owners never pay the upfront costs, even when it pays back in under a year - that's close to 100% ROI, and rising with energy costs. The only way they do it is when there's government money and/or requirements to do it. Until NYC's law kicked in this year, building owners refused to even measure their energy consumption, let alone reduce it. This is the reality, not the "Mayor of Sim City" Ron Paul LARPing Ayn Rand.
The right thing would have been an "Apollo programme" for energy efficiency/alternatives to get our money, and the troops that always follow it, out of the Mideast. By now, a decade later, we could have cut our energy consumption by at least 30%, maybe more, and set trade policies to get all of our oil/gas from our biggest sources: Mexico, Canada and the Caribbean (and some gas from the Pacific). Instead we invaded Iraq, sending oil to $100:bbl for most of a decade, while promoting SUVs and even Hummers that get 1/3 the mileage we should require from cars. We could have interconnected regional and commuter rail, built more cargo and passenger interlinks. The $3 TRILLION [washingtonpost.com] we spent in Iraq so far could have bought us an energy, transit and building infrastructure that got the Mideast and much of the global corruption out of our hair permanently. Instead we spent the time, money and lives making things worse.
We don't need to do wild science fiction to solve our core economic/political problems. We need to do straightforward science and engineering. Which should be the easiest politics of all. Instead, we wanted a flight suit, a megaphone, and blood. We sure got it.
9/11, reflecting on Americans acting the Cowards (Score:5, Insightful)
The anniversary of 9/11 always pisses me off. No, not because 3000 people died. 3000 people dying was a tragedy to be sure and the relatives of the victims certainly have my condolences. What pisses me off is the cowardly way that we as Americans reacted and how we continue to behave.
After 9/11 we had a decision. We could either have been brave or cowardly. We chose the path of cowardice. Cowardice is submitting to terror by stripping ourselves of civil liberty, creating a department of "homeland security", and installing pr0n scanners in airports. Cowardice is secret no-fly lists and domestic spying. The worst cowardice was Americans mewing to their politicians to strip them of their liberties to save them from the oh-so-scary terrorist. Cowardice is the path we picked. We gave up essential liberties for a trivial amount of security.
The path of bravery would have been to have by clinging to our essential freedoms and liberties. The nation that stood down the fucking USSR, a REAL threat, managed to go half a century without surrendering their freedoms and running away screaming like cowards. Seriously, consider that. 9/11 stripped away freedoms that we had even when the US was facing down a nation armed with a nuclear arsenal big enough to wipe out the world multiple times over. We faced down a world ending threat and didn't balk, but when a couple of sheep herders managed to knock down two buildings in a manner that they can never repeat again, we promptly shit ourselves and surrender those liberties we guarded when facing down the existential threat that was the USSR. Talking about acting the part of the fucking coward. If there was ever a time to piss ourselves and wipe our ass with the constitution, it was during the Cold War.
Just think about it for a moment. In a time when it was our policy the literally destroy the world if our allies were attacked, you could get on an airplane unmolested and the fourth amendment was still actively enforced.
If you are an American, you are going to die by stuffing your face with too much fucking food. Fucking deal with it. You are not going to die in a terrorist attack. The food you stuff into your god damn face is going to be the death of you. That, or your own body is going to murder you with cancer. If you are really lucky, you might die in an exciting car accident. The fucking terrorist are not going to kill you. If you believe so, you are a god damn coward and an idiot.
Look here: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm [cdc.gov]
Fucking food bacteria kills 10x more people every year than terrorist did in 2001. It kills 300x more people than terrorist have killed Americans in the past decade. Terrorism in 2001 didn't even make it to the top 10 most likely ways to die. It falls well below chocking on your own god damn food over the past decade. That is right, stuffing food into your fat face is literally more likely to kill you than a terrorist.
So what pisses me off about 9/11 is that it is not a time for memorials and what not. What pisses me off is that we sit around circle jerking each other over how scary the terrorist are as we stuff our fat Americans asses with McDonalds food. We mew and bleat to politicians to protect us from one of the most unlikely ways to die imaginable, as we work on scoring a heart attack before the age of 60 by eating ourselves to death.
We could have a 9/11 style attack every single MONTH, and we would still have more people dying to being fat asses. Despite this, I don't see us cowardly begging the government to strip us of our civil liberties to save us from eating ourselves to death.
9/11 pisses me off each and every year because it is a sore reminder that when faced with a minor and petty threat to ourselves, we shit our pants, pissed ourselves, and picked the path of the coward. We gave up our civil liberties and elected asshole politicians who promised to rip apart the constitution. It pains me to think
Re:The terrorists lost (Score:3, Insightful)
Fair enough, but I can still blame Bush for ignoring his counter-terrorism team (eg: Richard Clark) practically screaming at him to take notice of Al Qaeda before the 9/11 attacks. And I can blame Bush (and particularly Cheney) for railroading the country into a second, unnecessary war in Iraq, based on false information (eg: Downing Street memo). There's plenty more to mention, but you get the idea.
Yes, I also blame the Dems for going along with it. But there's no denying it was pushed by the neo-cons from the beginning.
Marking 10 years since US Revolution overthrown (Score:4, Insightful)
I was once attacked by a dog. Since then I have carried around a solid gold tiger. It has made me the object of ridicule, my limbs are aching and I can barely afford to eat. But at least I haven't been attacked by any more dogs.
God bless your betters!
Not True (Score:4, Insightful)
Not True. The number of deaths from drunken driving has been steadily reducing for many years. What we've done about it has been very effective. We've treated it as if it were a crime.
How effective do you all suppose it would have been to have declared "WAR" on drunk driving? My guess is that we'd have spent our treasury dry and had to borrow money from China. Probably would have ruined our economy. Sure glad that didn't happen.
Re:and the saddest thing (Score:5, Insightful)
The US faced down the fucking USSR. The USSR could literally destroy the world, and we had a policy of going toe to toe with them if they messed with us or our allies. We were just as ready to jab the 'blow up the god damn world' as they were, if not more so. We went nearly a decade in that mindset without pissing away our civil liberties.
9/11 comes along and one of the least scary threats to Americans, a threat that ranks well below eating McDonalds food (which actually DOES kill Americans), and we piss ourselves.
Our actions didn't scare away OBL. OBL couldn't do it again because as soon as we installed $100 security doors and airplanes and passengers decided to beat the shit out of anyone trying to take over the airplane, it made that attack impossible. The US could eat a 9/11 10 times a year, and if we didn't act like fucking cowards in response, terrorism still wouldn't even make it into the top 10 most likely ways to die as an American. Eating your fat American ass to death would remain safely on top by over two orders of magnitude.
I am all for beating the piss out of Afghanistan post 9/11. It is a friendly reminder to other nations not to harbor enemies. I was okay with dropping a couple hundred on security doors for airplanes and telling passengers to beat the shit out of anyone trying to take over and airplane. Absolutely everything beyond that was a complete fucking waste of money and much of it a violation of civil liberties we managed to keep even when facing down the fucking USSR.
Seriously, consider that. The fourth amendment meant something when facing down the god damn USSR, an world ending threat. When faced with sheep herders who are as likely to blow their own dicks off as they are to blow up a single airplane (of our many thousands), we promptly rip up the constitution and use it as toilet paper to help clean up the mess when made we shit ourselves in cowardly fright.
Anyone who fears terrorist in the US is a fucking coward, pure and simple. Anyone who fears them enough to mew and bleat to politicians to strip their fellow Americans of civil liberties and constitutional protection is not only a complete and total fucking coward, but a sniveling traitorous coward of the worst kind, as they have the nerve to bleat for politicians to strip their fellow citizens of freedoms that 200+ years of Americans fought and died to build and protect. If you are going to be a coward, do it quietly, and don't be a traitorous piece of filth working to undo freedoms bought with 200+ years of sweat and blood by men and women far more deserving of those freedoms than your sniveling pathetic ass. If the thought of dying really causes your bowels to loosen, eat less fucking food.
Don't forget France, those murderers (Score:4, Insightful)
It seems if we accept that 9/11 occurs every day in Iraq, then we must also accept that 9/11 happens every day in Libya. So, fuck those terrorist countries too for causing civilian deaths in a war zone.
Let's see... fuck Denmark, fuck Italy, fuck Netherlands, fuck Norway, fuck Sweden, fuck Spain, fuck Turkey, fuck Jordan, fuck Qatar, fuck UAE. Fuck them all.
Re:and the saddest thing (Score:1, Insightful)
If anybody calls you a "conspiracy theorist",
Saying man never walked on the moon makes you a conspiracy theorist. Saying a magic bullet swerved through the crowd and made a u-turn before hitting JFK makes you a conspiracy theorist. Seeing two commercial airliners hit a pair of giant towers then wondering why the buildings collapsed and watching the tons of debris hit and destroy another building and wonder how hundreds of tons of falling flaming rubble could possibly damage a building doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist, it makes you batshit bonkers.
Re:Nice summary, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
Wait, wait, wait - the parent points out that there are thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians who have been killed or injured by US forces and he's modded "Troll"?!
Yeah, and you get -1 for questioning them. Huh. There's a lot of "Dumbth" in this thread so far, and I've only seen a third of the posts. "America, right or wrong!"
I do think hundreds of thousands of innocent casualties are far worse than a few thousand Wall Street Banksters (but I'll admit, I've developed a prejudice against the latter in recent years).
I'm not sure I'd blame the Iraq war on "*cough* oil *cough*", though. I blame it on Bush's arrogance, narcissism and naivete. That, and wanting to finish the job to make his pop proud of him.
OBL was a sh*thead, just as are all those who followed him (ask any *real* devout Muslim). That said, the US believing that ~3000 innocent (US based) civilians easily justifies hundreds of thousands of atrocities committed elsewhere is horrifying, to say the least.
Re:He just made one mistake (Score:5, Insightful)
Thinning out the Taliban? What are you talking about? The pourose border with Pakistan means the Taliban can move with relative ease to escape NATO forces. What's more they're receiving aid from Pakistani security services, so it's not like they don't have important allies.
The minute NATO leaves, the government will be overrun, collapse and everyone will be back where they started.
Re:He just made one mistake (Score:5, Insightful)
The US may not be winning the war but they sure as hell are thinning out the Taliban.
Evidence, and over what time period? In 2009 it was reported [aljazeera.net] that "Taliban-led forces fighting US and Nato troops in Afghanistan have increased nearly fourfold since 2006, according to a US intelligence estimate". In the last few years the Taliban have managed to spread their influence (or, at least, philosophy) to largely destabilise the tribal regions of north west Pakistan, suggesting that their power over the last 5 years has increased rather than decreased. This graph [wikipedia.org] of coalition casualties in Afghanistan shows that most deaths have occurred in the last two years, further suggesting that Taliban power isn't waning.
Media coverage of anniversary. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's shameful that the media coverage is merely a flashback back to 9/11, and I here nothing about the subsequent fear, paranoia, and loss of freedoms that have engulfed the country. It was certainly a horrible day, but the aftermath on our country has been tens of thousands of times worse.
We got into two wars that we're STILL it., We have this lovely patriot act, which continues to be renewed with little debate. We have a continually fearful public, cowed into submission to The Official Reaction. We have ever increasing security theatre at airports. But yet no coverage of any of that. It's all about the day, and nothing about the disaster afterward.
Re:fuck the usa (Score:3, Insightful)
We have a theocracy. Nobody can win a major seat in our government without professing to be a person of faith.
Secondly, what legislation are you thinking of specifically -- I'd like to read it and see if it says what you say it does.
Finally, if it takes a whack job to stop burning people and money around the world, that's a whack job I'd prefer to the scum currently dictating policy.
Re:and the saddest thing (Score:5, Insightful)
Robert Fisk is, was, and always will be uber anti-american. Quoting him on this day just makes you look like the idiot you are.
My post was not intended as anti-American, since I am not anti-American. I was summarising an interview with Osama bin Laden on why he planned to attack the U.S and what his motivations were. Is that not relevant to this discussion? Why is interviewing Osama bin Laden considered anti-American? Why, "on this day", are we not allowed to state the reasons that he gave for attacking the U.S.? Would it make you feel better if we all pretend that he was just a crazy guy who never tried to justify his actions?
Yes, life under the Taliban sucked. Yes, killing thousands of civilians is bad. Yes, Al Qaeda is not a conventional military of a nation state (although the Taliban could have been considered that way in 2001). I have no idea if they have a functioning legal system, perhaps Sharia? Regardless, I really don't see how these points are relevant; they do not refute Osama bin Laden's statement that he intended to draw the U.S. into a protracted war in Afghanistan, and that he stated some reasons, which is all that my original post said...
Re:My thoughts are with everyone who lost anyone (Score:3, Insightful)
Your understanding of certain critical elements is flawed.
We didn't invade Iraq unprovoked (the first time). If you're referring to the second time, yes, that invasion was unprovoked, but that occurred years after 9/11, so it couldn't have been a motive.
In fact, when Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990, we had the entire world on our side. We were virtually unopposed in the campaign to grow a coalition within the U.N.
Also, what fewer people realize: Bin Laden offered his help to Saudi Arabia at the time.
Bin Laden didn't want Infidels in the Kingdom. He realized a war against Iraq to liberate Kuwait and defend Saudi Arabia would have to be based out of Saudi Arabia. So he asked the Saudi royals to let his forces defend the Kingdom rather than allowing foreigners onto holy ground.
The Saudi royalty, seeing the Kuwaiti royalty now living in the Saudi royalty's hotels after narrowly escaping from Kuwait, decided that perhaps they'd rather have real armies to defend them instead of a group of poorly armed rebel freedom fighters.
Wise choice or not, it pissed off Bin Laden. He used to be close with the Saudi royal family, and apparently this created a permanent rift between him and the royals. That Infidels would be stationed on holy land was insult to injury to him. That they would stay after Kuwait was liberated was intolerable.
Why Bin Laden never chose to strike Israel directly, I can't say. But their motives were most definitely religious. Political too to be sure, but unquestionably religious.
Again, it wasn't target selection that was religiously motivated. It was the motives of the war to begin with.
We went to war with Japan because they bombed Pearl Harbor. We didn't only attack targets that were related to Pearl Harbor. That's not how war works.
Re:fuck the usa (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:and the saddest thing (Score:5, Insightful)
The US faced down the fucking USSR. The USSR could literally destroy the world, and we had a policy of going toe to toe with them if they messed with us or our allies. We were just as ready to jab the 'blow up the god damn world' as they were, if not more so. We went nearly a decade in that mindset without pissing away our civil liberties.
The USSR could destroy the world, but they DID NOT WANT TO. The commies were corrupt dictators, but they were rational people who loved their lives and that of their children. They wouldn't attack the west with terrorist sleeper cells that used airplanes as bombs, or with suitcase nukes in NY harbor. With people who love life, the "mutually assured destruction" deterrent works. The USSR had the capability to destroy the world 10 times over, but they didn't use that capability for 40 years. Islamic terrorists do want to destroy the world. If you gave the nuclear arsenal and launch sites of the USSR to Al Qaida, western civilization would cease to exist the next day.
Re:and the saddest thing (Score:5, Insightful)
No, but wasting over a trillion dollars and ten years to find and kill him and turning your precious Constitution into toilet paper in the process certainly was.
Re:fuck the usa (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:and the saddest thing (Score:4, Insightful)
It was the day that marked the beginning of the end for the USA.
even I don't believe this.
its the beginning of a dark period, to be sure. but the whole WORLD has gone 'down hill' along with us. this is not a USA issue but it shows what people are like. more specifically, it shows what people IN POWER are like. world wide, all countries have take the same liberties away from its citizens. this isn't an american issue; its about all world leaders and how human beings react to threats and threats on their powerbase.
if you can't see this, you are as foolish as the people you accuse.
well of course (Score:2, Insightful)
you realize that your attitude is exactly the same thing you hate
therefore, you are part of the problem
the idea is to rise above the hate, not simply invert the hate, and think that means anything
you've become just another empty pointless node in the endless cycle of tribal turf wars
Re:and the saddest thing (Score:5, Insightful)
You have it exactly backwards. The only reason people do terrorism is to get attention.
Look, the whole point of terrorism is to be an effectiveness multiplier. The purpose of flying the planes into the twin towers wasn't to kill people. It was to get the US to spend billions of dollars on counter-terrorism measures.
You'll occasionally see in sports games, people who strip naked and run onto the field. When that happens, the TV broadcasters point the cameras away. Why? Because they know that the cameras is what the guy wanted. By putting him on TV, they're giving him exactly what he wants, and encouraging more people to do the same. By talking about the game and ignoring him, they're sending a message: Your little stunt will be largely ignored.
If the media did that with terrorism, then terrorism would not exist: there would be no point. But the fact is that terrorism is very good for the media. It has people glued to their television sets. The media are an integral part of a terrorist attack; it wouldn't function properly without it.
Now, I'm not saying we should just ignore terrorism. We need to find out the root causes and see what we can do about it. But one of the biggest things we could do is just not make a big deal out of it.
Re:and the saddest thing (Score:4, Insightful)
The US faced down the fucking USSR. The USSR could literally destroy the world, and we had a policy of going toe to toe with them if they messed with us or our allies. We were just as ready to jab the 'blow up the god damn world' as they were, if not more so. We went nearly a decade in that mindset without pissing away our civil liberties.
I agree with the sentiment of your post, but I also think it's important not to gloss over history.
The truth is that more than a few people had problems during the Red Scare [wikipedia.org] (both of them), but even more so as a result of McCarthyism [wikipedia.org]. While we may have done better then than we are doing today, the US didn't weather the Cold War without any blemishes on civil rights or liberties.
Re:But (Score:5, Insightful)
Start saying "1st of September" like the rest of the world does..
Re:fuck the usa (Score:5, Insightful)
afghanistan absolutely was the fight for 9/11 and continues to be.
How so? Afghanistan was invaded because talibs refused to unconditionally hand over Osama, but they themselves didn't play any significant part in 9/11. So eventually they've got Osama in Pakistan - what's Aghanistan about, now?
Also, let's see what the track record of U.S/NATO there has been so far:
1. Replaced autocratic theocracy with sham democratic theocracy. Beheading for apostasy and stoning to death for adultery are still the law in "liberated" Afghanistan.
2. Taliban-controlled areas, both in Afghanistan and in Pakistan, became the breeding ground for terrorists. Now that they are attacked by the U.S., it's a good and easy way to be "martyred" for those looking for it.
3. Poppy production is through the roof again, and floods Russia and Europe. Taliban used to burn the fields and kill the growers; the new government almost entirely consists of those people who cash in on selling drugs.
Re:Nice summary, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
I remember that one too. I also remember that it was a fake, footage taken from some different event.
You remember incorrectly. [wikipedia.org]