Remembering America's Fresh Water Submarines 225
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samzenpus
from the bravo-zulu dept.
from the bravo-zulu dept.
Hugh Pickens writes "As we move into Memorial Day and Americans remember the men and women who died while serving in the United States Armed Forces, I wanted to share the story of my Uncle Donald Cress born in 1922 in Bath Township, Minnesota who served as a Radioman, Third Class on the USS Robalo, one of the US Navy's 'Fresh Water Submarines' because they were commissioned in the Great Lakes. On the western shore of Lake Michigan, about 80 miles north of Milwaukee, lies Manitowoc, Wisconsin, a city whose shipyards had built car ferries and ore boats since 1902. In 1939 war broke out in Europe and President Roosevelt declared a limited National Emergency and U.S. Navy shipbuilders were concerned that submarine building capacity was not sufficient to support a long war. The US Navy asked the Manitowoc Shipbuilding Company to build submarines, a task far beyond their existing capabilities, but assured them that the Electric Boat Company, with the only shipyard in the country capable of building submarines, would provide plans and whatever assistance they would need. Manitowoc's shipyard grew from 500 employees to 7,000 employees at its peak working three shifts around the clock 365 days a year and by the end of the war had built 25 submarines in time to see action that together sank 132 Japanese ships. 'It appears from the results obtained at Manitowoc that given a set of good plans, competent engineers and skilled workman can follow them and build what is called for even though it might be very much more sophisticated than anything they have built before,' writes Rear Admiral William T. Nelson. But there was one more thing the shipyard had going for it. After Pearl Harbor the entire community was now engaged in vital and important war work, sacrifice was the order of the day, and each boat was their boat. 'With the entire community following the construction with such interest and spirit, success was inevitable.'"
As we move into Memorial Day and Americans remembe (Score:4, Insightful)
Hahaha. You mean "as we remember and celebrate barbecuing and long weekends off from work".
Besides, the holiday has become nothing more than a day to fill young minds with propaganda about how EVERYONE is a hero no matter what, just for BEING IN the military. That way, we collectively put anyone joining the military on a pedestal. That way, we keep the machine fed so dumb young people are brainwashed by the rest of us into sacrificing themselves -- worthwhile for a good cause and not so much for trivial world-cop activities and guarding international corporate interests and oil-wells. We're all guilty of promoting the government propaganda that keeps allowing elderly fucktard politicians to throw young lives away. Memorial day my fucking ass.
War is a Racket! (Score:3, Insightful)
"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes."
Re:Fresh Water submarines? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (Score:5, Insightful)
Besides, the holiday has become nothing more than a day to fill young minds with propaganda about how EVERYONE is a hero no matter what, just for BEING IN the military.
We drafted soldiers into WWI, WWII, the Korean War and Vietnam. Tens of thousands of them were killed, and many more were injured. I thank them and honor them for their service to our country. Subsequent military actions were staffed by men and women who volunteered to serve and protect our country. Thousands of them have been killed, and many more have been injured. I thank them and honor them for their service to our country.
I don't agree with all our government's policies regarding war, nation building, military spending, etc, but I can certainly distinguish between those in power that hatch these policies from those that fight, suffer and die because of them.
Re:25 subs managed 132 ships sunk (Score:4, Insightful)
I think they may have had a little more time to actually rack up that number,
Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (Score:5, Insightful)
So tell me what about the Korean war or Vietnam had anything to do with protecting our country?
They were about protecting our allies. I certainly don't think they were a great idea but I can separate those who fought and died from the politicians who sent them into battle.
Furthermore what about the countless other lives that we have ended, and the countless populations that we have stolen from, in order to live in the extravagance that we enjoy today?
Once again you're equating the policies and practices of the government with the sacrifices made by those who serve in the military. They are not one and the same.
Brainwashed!
Things are not as black & white as agreeing with you or being brainwashed. It's that type of attitude that leads to conflicts ... which lead to wars.
Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (Score:3, Insightful)
"Without that we'd be an Islamic state by now - the Muslims have no qualms about attacking the undefended or wasting lives."
Are you serious? You were doing great until this sentence. Not only is it a ridiculous exaggeration (the fantasies of a few terrorist fanatics do not make a viable invasion force), but it's no better than any of the other the bigoted BS that generations of political leaders have used to start wars, whether we're talking ethnic, religious, racial, or some other silly excuse. After a couple of world wars, I thought we had moved on from that crap?
I too have a great deal of respect for people who join the military. I have very little respect for politicians or for the other people that use words of prejudice and misunderstanding to justify sending soldiers off to war. When there's a GOOD reason, when it is a necessity: yeah, send them. That's their job, and soldiers take their duty seriously. But as citizens in a democratic country, it is our duty to make decisions that are based on credible threats, not on paranoia and childish fears. It is our duty to make sure that the military is strategically focused where it matters, not squandering lives and money fruitlessly.
I don't know what propaganda you've been listening to -- the fantasies of fringe islamist fanatics or the ultra-right-wing anti-immigration wackos who generically think "Muslims are the enemy" -- but the fear you are describing is a recipe for politicians to manipulate people, not the justification for having a military or respecting the job they do.
Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (Score:5, Insightful)
for the simple reason they are putting their lives on the line.
Just like miners, construction workers, fishermen, hangliding instructors, etc. Someone will inevitably argue "nobody is actively trying to kill those guys", but the source of the risk doesn't matter. Getting crushed by a pile of rock, or blown up by a IED, is death on the job either way.
Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (Score:5, Insightful)
the Muslims have no qualms about attacking the undefended.
Yeah because the army was formed on Sept 12th, 2001. Oh wait, what? Your argument is full of shit.
Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (Score:3, Insightful)
As a military veteran with friends and family who also served in the military (some who have been in combat), I'd like to offer you the most sincere heartfelt sentiment I can think of: Fuck You.
You don't even understand the thing that you're bashing. Memorial Day is about honoring those who died in battle, not everyone in the military. It doesn't much matter whether you agree with war, or the government, or the military, or whatever your favorite institutional boogeyman is, today is for those who volunteered to serve their country and paid the ultimate sacrifice. If anything, this should be the peacenik's favorite holiday because it highlights and emphasises the real cost of war.
And then there's the irony of posting as an Anonymous Coward...
Re:Another Memorial Day (Score:2, Insightful)
When and where is their Memorial Day?
They don't need one. I'm sure they can remember their losses every day. If they get close to forgetting the US military will send another drone or bomb to remind them.
Re:At the going down of the sun and in the morning (Score:5, Insightful)
And, of course, we also observe Veteran's Day (11 NOV)....
Yeah, that's when teachers, mail carriers and DMV clerks get the day off but if you're only a veteran you have to go to work.
Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (Score:5, Insightful)
I do what I do so that we can keep this fight away from our home.
Yeah, by fighting in someone else's home, so their little girls get to experience it, instead.
Your little girl's security comes at the expense of hundreds of thousands of completely innocent people, and not only that, but it perpetuates the terrorism that we're supposedly over there fighting in the first place. Simple logic and human nature dictates that losing your family in response to terrorist acts they had no part in [wikipedia.org] can do nothing but encourage the survivors to engage in terrorist acts themselves. If your little girls were killed by an occupying force, would you not retaliate with every fiber of your being? Yet we vilify the Iraqis (and Afghanis, and Vietnamese, and every other country we've occupied in the last 50+ years of proxy war we're involved in)? The vast majority of the people of this country would do the same fucking thing in their situation.
The late, great Bill Hicks said it best:
The world is like a ride in an amusement park, and when you choose to go on it you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. The ride goes up and down, around and around, it has thrills and chills, and it's very brightly colored, and it's very loud, and it's fun for a while. Many people have been on the ride a long time, and they begin to wonder, "Hey, is this real, or is this just a ride?" And other people have remembered, and they come back to us and say, "Hey, don't worry; don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride." And we kill those people. "Shut him up! I've got a lot invested in this ride, shut him up! Look at my furrows of worry, look at my big bank account, and my family. This has to be real." It's just a ride. But we always kill the good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok But it doesn't matter, because it's just a ride. And we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings of money. Just a simple choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.
Imagine how much good will there would be in the world if, instead of killing these people, we fed them?
Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (Score:4, Insightful)
As much as it pains me to do so... I have to say that you're wrong and he's correct.
The historical reason for Memorial Day was to honor those who fell in service, but over the years it has expanded. Over the years it grew to encompass all service members who have died including veterans and retirees that passed quietly in their beds decades after their service. In particular, over the last decade is has further expanded in the public mind to include living servicembers and veterans as well.
(And, FWIW, I'm a vet too.)
Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (Score:3, Insightful)
It had nothing to do with protecting our allies, it had to do with protecting our business interest, which communism was an ideological threat to. The citizens of Vietnam and Korea wanted communism, and just like many other countries we took it away from them, so that we could continue to reap the rewards of our influence.
Really? Every citizen in Vietnam and Korea wanted communism? Next I suppose you're going to tell us that those not wanting communism were brainwashed/bribed by the US Industrial/Military Complex, while the USSR/China side was not.
Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (Score:4, Insightful)
The late, great Bill Hicks said it best:
There was nothing great about Bill Hicks. He was simply a bitter man that hated everything. What's funny is that he would despise people like you that deify him now that he's dead.
Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.
This from the same man that described humanity as "a virus with shoes"
Hicks was no different from any other bi-polar leftwing cynic: swinging wildly from visions of utopia to expressing the deepest hope that a giant meteor would come and end humanity once and for all. Yes, that's some voice in the wilderness you follow.
Imagine how much good will there would be in the world if, instead of killing these people, we fed them?
We already do that to a great extent. The United States in particular gives away more aid in food, medicines, and money than anyone else in history. We do it on a massive scale. And it'll never bring about this utopia you seek. Because humanity is flawed, and despite Gene Roddenberry's own utopian ideals, human nature will never "evolve". It is what it is. The are inescapable consequences to this truth. "For the poor will always be with you", as Jesus put it, is one of them.
We could totally and completely devote our country to doing nothing but feeding and caring for the rest of the world. We could completely stand down our army and become the biggest welfare state anywhere. And it would change nothing. Because there will always be people that, no matter what you do for them, will want to kill you and take what you have, or simply kill you because they don't like what you're thinking. The ramblings of "if we just embraced peace" from people like Hicks are the ramblings of fools. We're not perfect by any means, and there's a lot of room for improvement, but I'll take having a military defend our interests while trying to help others as we can... over simply laying our arms down and hoping for the best. The former is prudent. The latter will end you, with some other guy killing you and taking your stuff.
I've been fortunate (Score:2, Insightful)
to have seen ships burning after being torpedoed off the Delaware coast; dived in both WWII era sub, a Balistic Missle sub and a modern attack boat; played war games against Russian subs (they were remarkably friendly and knew our exercise rules and would help us with data to assist our scoring). We used to exchange officers between our subs and the anti-subs so we each could better understand the limitations each operated under, the effectiveness of their weapons, sensors and the like. Those guys were good.
And I just got back from a ceremony honoring an Air Force medic killed along with dozens of others when his chopper was shot down in Afghanistan. His widow lives near me, her husband never got to see the house they were building. The speech was given by a neighbor who can barely walk having crashed too many times and jumped too many times. Yes, he suffers from PTSD. Can't sleep well at night. And now spends his days dealing with suicides in the army trying to prevent and then to console the families.
Those are the heroes.
Some others of us who served, through the luck of our assignments, had relatively easy times of it. I volunteered in an era of the draft. I'm glad I did it.
What have you done for others? Have you even lost a friend?