TomTom Flames OpenStreetMap 345
An anonymous reader writes "TomTom Navigation has a recently launched article on what they call the 'negative aspects' of open data projects such as OpenStreetMap. As there are no hard facts and details to the studies they refer, the OSM community identified this release as classic 'Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.'"
Re:Why would it need studies? (Score:5, Interesting)
I would hope a self-driving cars use data from it's immediate surroundings to make decisions and just use a GPS as a navigational device that can be overridden by irl factors on the ground. It wouldn't even have to be sabotage that overrides a gps, just your avg Cop/Fireman blocking off a street temporarily.
IMO, people are bigger dangers. Especially in a situation like where faulty data will lead a GPS will tell them to turn the wrong way on a one way street and they don't really check. I have a friend that obeys the things blindly. I know the GPS is screwing up and using a route that may look good on paper but is utterly long irl compared to some shortcuts the locals know. But no, she never listens. The GPS says so and it must be followed. She's the type to veer into oncoming traffic on a one way street if, fate forbid, her GPS screw up majorly one day.
Applies to them too? (Score:5, Interesting)
The oddest part, to me, is that they kind of admit to the same issues in TFA:
Our map-makers are real experts, many having over 20 years' experience in the field. And we harness the local knowledge of our 60 million satnav customers, who can make corrections through TomTom Map Share.
Surely a disgruntled employee can be do a better job at keeping disgruntled users in check, than a community of volunteers...
Open Street Maps vs Commercial Maps.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Greetings and Salutations;
Well, I have been editing and contributing to OpenStreetMap for several years now, and, I have to say that while there is a point to the criticism, in general, I would disagree with their analysis. It is a bit too self-serving for my taste. I do not own a TomTom, but, have had a couple of Garmins, and, have used a TomTom unit before. The commercial maps have been no better than the Open Source maps, and in several cases have been far less accurate. There are a number of places here in East Tennessee where the commercial maps have the GPS insisting that I am driving through the fields on the side of the road.
One point where Open Street Map shines is that it has actual roads and trails in such places as National Parks and forests...where the commercial maps have nothing but blank green areas.
Re:Why would it need studies? (Score:5, Interesting)
I wonder how they handle winter roads, like one can find in the northern part of Scandinavia.
This are routes that are open only in winter when the lakes are frozen, and provide very convenient routes and shortcuts. In summer however they are closed for obvious reasons.
TomTom geek employee (Score:3, Interesting)
I am ashamed of our marketing department
Re:Why would it need studies? (Score:5, Interesting)
TomTom itself will direct you to a point about half a mile away from my house (in the middle of a large town) if you put my postcode into some of its GPS devices.
That's caused problems both for friends and takeaway delivery drivers :(
Re:Why would it need studies? (Score:5, Interesting)
In addition to your very good point some of the commercial maps (used to?) deliberately add mistakes to their maps as a test that they can use to see if anyone is copying them.
ye ye - I know [citation needed], don't feel like it
Says something else... (Score:5, Interesting)
The fact that Tomtom feels the need to bring up OSM says to me that OSM is now a credible competitive threat to them. The business model of selling maps for use on gps units is rapidly becoming obsolete, they can either try to fight it and become increasingly irrelevant, or adapt...
Incidentally, what i dislike about tomtom is that having bought the device, i needed a code to register my map, and this code was on a tiny sticker attached to the sleeve of a cd that came in the box... When my sdcard died, i replaced it, reloaded the software and map, only for it to refuse to work unless i entered the code. I still have the physical device, but have no idea where the code is (most likely lost) so am left with a relatively expensive device that i now cannot use via official channels.
Ofcourse, i simply found a crack online which allowed me to use the device i paid for without the tiny strip of paper containing an arbitrary code.
Hard Facts (Score:4, Interesting)
Let's distinguish here (Score:5, Interesting)
I have been working with digital map data for on advanced driver assistance applications for a few years, and my experience is the following:
Some applications want lots of data. They don’t care if it is perfect or not, such as whether there is a zebra crossing, a traffic light, a stair, a path for mountain bike but not for road bike, etc. One example of this is navigation: it doesn’t matter if the turn has an error of 10 meter, if it is 10 or 25 degrees to the right, etc.
Other applications they are fine with less data, but this must be absolutely accurate to within a meter. Examples of this are active-safety applications, such as map-based adaptive front lighting, curve warning, etc.
Some other applications are in the middle. They are not very sensitive, but annoying if incorrect: example of this is speed limit warning.
The biggest map vendors collect hundreds of attributes at very high quality. This is true particularly for low-number functional classes (highways and motorways). They often meet the 5-m absolute and 1-m relative accuracy for geometry.
It is very difficult for OSM to meet this high quality, specially because you need a differential GPS (DGPS) to collect these. That said, map vendors invest most of their effort on large important roads, while rural or off-roads have from low to very poor quality.
Moreover, one thing is the quality at which data is collected, and another one is the map quality. Vendors tend to decimate (strip-out) geometry points on non important roads in order to reduce the size of the map.
So to sum up: if you are on a motorway or highway, OSM probably won’t match the quality of Navteq, Teleatlas or Google. If you are on a rural area, off-road, bike trail, etc., OSM will probably kick everyone’s butt. Plus it is usually more up-to-date.
TomTom tries to close this gap with their community content, which I find very dishonest from them. They save millions by using people’s data, but they don’t pass these savings back to the consumer.
Re:Let's distinguish here (Score:2, Interesting)
If they have a means of averaging all the different GPS tracks they receive to produce their data, that wouldn't matter so much. You could even crowdsource this ; have a task list for people who are registered as "Open Street Mappers" in a particular region to go and recollect given data points to improve their accuracy.
waze.com does exactly this. They put small "goodies" shaped as candy on the streets that needs more data points, and users go there to collect the candy and help improve the map.
Re:We're better because we do the same thing! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Hard Facts (Score:2, Interesting)
Which was caused by a firmware error in a Broadcom chip used in several products. Firmware was made by Broadcom, not TomTom.
Re:No kidding (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually this is where osmand app (based on openstreetmap) comes in. You dont have to be connected, and is very user friendly in terms of downloading & updating maps. An android phone with Google Maps Navigation and osmand app, is way better than a TomTom.
Re:Why would it need studies? (Score:5, Interesting)
The reality is that the problem has never been with Ordnance Survey, but with the terms and conditions of Google Maps. It has absolutely nothing to do with derived data or our licensing terms but everything to do with Google claiming the right to use any data you display in Google Maps in any way it sees fit, even if it doesn’t belong to them.
Frustratingly, this is only a problem that exists with Google Maps. No such clause appears in the terms of any other mapping API, including Bing Maps and our own OS OpenSpace.
Re:Applies to them too? (Score:5, Interesting)
TomTom uses their customers input as recommendations for changes, which are then vetted by their experts. OSM users act as their experts relying on self-policing and trust.
Surely, even Slashdot readers can understand the difference.
-dZ.
Re:Open Street Maps vs Commercial Maps.... (Score:5, Interesting)
I checked out OpenStreetMap maybe 12 months ago with the full intention of correcting my local area. I had a mental image of 15km2 that I could help with.
I was extremely disapointed. Not only was my local area perfect compared to Google and Microsoft, it also told me where the drain covers were located. It kid, but it had far more info than I could ever hope to gather myself.
OpenStreetMap needs to advertise.
Re:Open Street Maps vs Commercial Maps.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Yep. For example, here [openstreetmap.org] is a place in the Alps in openstreetmap, and here [google.com] is the same place in google maps, and here [tomtom.com] is the same thing in routes.tomtom.com. Only openstreetmap shows the hiking trail (as well as peaks with their elevations, and mountain huts). This is a really good thing for hikers, runners and mountain bikers.
You can also get topo maps based on OSM data from toposm.com, although this still seems pretty primitive and they only cover the US. Google's maps with contour shading are OK, but they don't let you print them through their web interface (although you can always print a screenshot), and they don't show contour lines.
What isn't so great about OSM is that driving directions from yournavigation.org are not usable at all. Also, the search functionality is (not surprisingly) inferior to the one in google maps -- if you don't put in exactly the right form of the name, it doesn't work.
Re:Why would it need studies? (Score:3, Interesting)
My wife used to work for a well known map company. She was told that it was common practice to deliberately insert errors so the company could tell if its maps were being copied (I guess they could easily release the lawyers that way).
I wonder how many errors there are in the maps used by GPS. Maybe since it is more controlled, there are less errors ... maybe.
Re:Why would it need studies? (Score:5, Interesting)
On the way to my former residence, all the mapping services I have ever use direct me to a bit of a shortcut, taking a small bridge over a local river instead of the bridge associated with the state highway.
Said bridge has been closed (condemed) since 1967.
I have attempted to bring this to the attention of multiple major map direction sites and gps companies, but despite 'accepting' my correction, the latest Tom-Tom unit (just for example) still gives the route over the closed bridge
Re:We're better because we do the same thing! (Score:4, Interesting)
Uh, TomTom doesn't even exist in Japan. At least I've never seen one in my 13+ years of driving here, and I can't find ANY information about TomTom being available or usable in Japan.
Re:Why would it need studies? (Score:4, Interesting)
Google wants to be able to edit the map, as they expose a Map Editor for users. If they can't claim ownership, then they will not able to have their users make changes, either directly (using Google Map Editor) or indirectly (collecting GPS tracks and elevation data to supplement roads and terrain)
Re:We're better because we do the same thing! (Score:3, Interesting)
Sounds like it's time for someone to risk taking more direct action... maybe something like this: An artist disguised as a state employee takes a direct approach to correcting guide signs on the California freeway system [ankrom.org]...
Re:TomTom geek employee (Score:3, Interesting)
Another one here. It's really a geek company. No coincidence that we're still using Linux after that quarrel with Microsoft. E.g. the ext3 on top of FAT trick we pulled (workaround for the Microsoft patent) is open sourced on both the PC/Mac and device side.
That said, TomTom does have a point here, it's just Marketing that's unable to explain it (again :( ). We do have far, far more data to go on than OSM. TomTom Traffic requires that you send your position to receive the local traffic jams, but that information gives us by far the most detailed flow information. Sure, those 60 million users can provide us with MapShare data, but it's the few million traffic subscriptions that provide us with the bulk of the information. OSM simpy doesn't have millions of daily contributors.
I personally worked on further improvements; our traffic analysis server is now on its 5th release. I'd estimate Google is 3 years behind in this area; OSM doesn't even play in this area. We don't need to believe road direction reports, we _see_ the traffic. That's why we are sincere when we ask our users to help us with improving the maps. It really makes a difference.
Re:Tomtom can get stuffed (Score:3, Interesting)
(TomTom employee here) Please Please let our marketing people know this. Just like TFA they're also fucking up the Linux release. The whole PC software has been rewritten from scratch to eliminate anything proprietary or platform-dependent. The biggest problem in porting it to RHEL/Itanium would probably be the dependency on a USB Ethernet class driver for Itanium hardware ;)