While the U.S. and Iran Negotiate, War Commences In Cyberspace 181
An anonymous reader writes "A series of reports shows that the U.S. and Israel are engaged in a cyber war with Iran to stop it from developing nuclear weapons. Oddly enough, at the same time, the United States and others nations are trying to negotiate with Iran. As America and others start the world's first undeclared cyber-wars, dangerous precedents are being set that this type of warfare is without consequences. Such ideas could not be further from from truth."
Crazy (Score:5, Insightful)
As crazy as this may sound, talking with each other is usually the best option.
United States playing the role of 1941 Japan (Score:1, Insightful)
I wish people would learn history, especially reporters who are very influential in shaping readers' views. Quote: "Thereâ(TM)s a strong likelihood that the next Pearl Harbor we confront could very well be a cyberattack that cripples our power systems, our grid, our security systems, our financial systems, our governmental system," said Leon Panetta, the U.S. defense secretary. In the case of Iran, it seems, it was the United States playing the role of 1941 Japan.
The 1941 attack did not happen in a vacuum. The U.S. had already been at war against Japan for several years, bombing & killing their soldiers in China. Just like we're doing with Iran now (except via the internet).
Re:Crazy (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly. They are negotiating. "War" involves shooting and death. Using it to describe sabotage is just hyperbole.
Re:Crazy (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly. They are negotiating. "War" involves shooting and death. Using it to describe sabotage is just hyperbole.
Hyperbole, yes, but not without a purpose. You could also call it fund-raising [imagicity.com].
This is another example of a military-industrial complex ginning up a new theatre of operations in which to spend billions^W^Wdeploy.
An undeclared war (Score:5, Insightful)
"As America and others start the world's first undeclared cyber-wars, dangerous precedents are being set that this type of warfare is without consequences. Such ideas could not be further from from truth."
Oh please. The French have been doing this kind of thing since before the United States even had a name for it. It's called industrial espionage, and they're so good at it that the executives of major companies are frequently told to never use the fax machines in hotels, or the phones, or the internet (unless it is an encrypted VPN), because the French government aggressively works to steal industrial secrets from other countries and provide it to their own businesses. People think because you add the word "Internet" to a social problem, that suddenly makes it new and special... le sigh.
All the internet did was make it faster and more efficient; Which is (wait for it) what computers in general do to socioeconomic processes.
Once again proving the USA is really the bad guys (Score:4, Insightful)
The USA is beginning to look an awful like an awful country run by despotic psychopaths.
The complete history of the endless war over the last 60 years has conclusively proven the USA to be quite evil.
Each action is seemingly taken as a response to provocation, but it is very clear that it openly engages in hostilities well and truly before any open warfare. Being the bully and then pretending the victim is the reson d'être. Pearl harbour, Vietnam, desert storm, 911 and now this. The USA had very deliberately stuck its dick in another counties ass, claims to be the wronged when the victim retaliates, then mobilises the very next week. It is prepared for war instantly. it is premeditated and very deliberately provocative.
The school bully uses this same method. They invariably go to jail or end up in a shit job. Soon, perhaps, the world will react against this menace.
Re:Crazy (Score:4, Insightful)
But the US gave up talking. They cripple the factories as good as they can, on the other hand demand that Iran proves its innocence (which is impossible). They demand Iran give up their sovereignty and let IAEA roam freely around the country, while at the same time IAEA has leakage that gets Iranian scientists murdered.
If you refer to the US and Iran talking, you are only talking about a charade. The US lost trust by its actions. Like it did with torture, or starting illegal wars, it cancelled diplomacy single-sidedly.
I think Iran would be reasonable if the negotiators took Iran as an entity and their rights seriously instead of telling them from the distance what to do. Participators need to understand the culture of Iran (a lot of friction is created in the translations [wikipedia.org]). That's why diplomats are so important, presidents aren't enough for the talking.
If Iran hadn't signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, it wouldn't even be bothered by the IAEA. It would be left alone to make nuclear weapons as it wished. I wonder if they could cancel the treaty. There is no real reason for Iran to build nuclear weapons and hide the fact, except now that everyone is making a fuzz to show that they can, then destroy it.
Re:Crazy (Score:3, Insightful)
As crazy as this may sound, talking with each other is usually the best option.
Problem is, every time USA, France, Germany, anybody, tries to talk to the leadership in Iran they are met with a very disingenuous leadership who will talk round in circles, but never give an inch. Rather like talking to the North Korean Government. They'll concede nothing and take everything they can get.
Not surprising - Iran's Revolutionary Guard and they aren't about to give up anything. If Grand Ayatollah Khamenei gives them too much trouble they'll just see to it he's replaced. Really is very Kremlin-esque what's going on in Tehran these days. Ultimately they want the bomb to use to preserve their grip on their own people, who they hold in great disdain.
Re:United States playing the role of 1941 Japan (Score:3, Insightful)
>>>So no -- the US was not at war with Japan prior to Pearl Harbor.
A distinction that matters not when you're Japan and your soldiers are getting blown to bits by U.S. airplanes flown by U.S. servicemen by direction of a U.S. general answering to the U.S. president. Next I suppose you'll claim the U.S. was not at war with Iraq in the 1990s (even though we blew-up a lot of them). If you cannot understand that our victims would desire revenge after watching their comrades die, then you must have ZERO empathy.
Re:Crazy (Score:5, Insightful)
>>>every time USA, France, Germany, anybody, tries to talk to the leadership in Iran they are met with a very disingenuous leadership who will talk round in circles
Source?
Last I heard Iran allowed UN inspection teams to enter the country and look at the labs. ALSO you seem to be unaware that Iran is allowed to develop nuclear capability under the terms of the Nonproliferation Treaty. It's not a crime for them to purify uranium below 29% purity. You appear to hate Iran simply because you were TOLD to hate Iran, without any logical reason for doing so. You're a "useful idiot" of the politicians.
It isn't war, it's espionage (Score:4, Insightful)
Which isn't exactly a new idea - both stealing secrets and sabotage.
Re:Once again proving the USA is really the bad gu (Score:2, Insightful)
Preventing a theocracy from getting a nuclear reaction is inarguably a good thing. Additionally, put it in the context of every single nation being involved in corporate hacking. Instead of doing hacking to make money, the way China or every other nation does, it's to prevent theocracies from developing nuclear weapons.
In before "the US is the biggest theocracy of all!"
Oh, and this is a dupe of an article from a week ago.
Fixing India's and Pakistan's nuclear arsenal should be the number one priority for the international community.
Iran is a game changer the same way NK is a game changer. No real game changer.
But if India goes nuclear on Pakistan or viceversa we will find ourselves in a world of hurt.
Funny how Pakistan, a country that finances and supports terrorism is given a free pass to having a nuclear arsenal. Yeah nothing could ever go wrong eh ?
Re:An undeclared war (Score:4, Insightful)
a state obtaining information from companies for economic gain would not be anything like a state secretly destroying part of another state's energy infrastructure and/or weapons program
The end result remains the same: Your adversary loses an asset. That loss can be quantified in monentary terms. How you get there and the morality, ethics, legality, etc., are logistical matters, not strategic.
How significant would it be if it was revealed that the French government had destroyed Russian gas drilling equipment or the Japanese government had sabotaged North Korean missiles?
Is now a bad time to point out the very word saboteur is French? They are so famous for just such things that we have named the act itself after them. Is every reported case of an industrial "accident" really an accident? Even Hollywood joked about it in Iron Man, "Call it a training accident." I'm not sure whether you're naive or arrogant to say that such a revelation about state-assisted sabotage would ever be revealed to the general public. Regardless, what you're demanding nobody here will give you: Anyone with proof of state-assisted industrial espionage is not going to hand it out on the demands of some guy on the internet who fancies himself an intellectual. Offer me a few million dollars and I'll consider it though. Offer me a few million more, and it might even be true.
Re:Once again proving the USA is really the bad gu (Score:5, Insightful)
Preventing a theocracy from getting a nuclear reaction is inarguably a good thing.
This is rubbish. You are using a premise as its own justification. Israel is not in danger from an Iranian nuclear attack. Such an attack would be complete suicide for Iran. At best, Iran wants to play the game of using the Bomb as a political weapon as does everyone else. It isn't e very credible game, given the force asymmetry between them and Israel. Israelis know Iran is not a substantial threat, as some of their intelligence officials have pointed out. The question is, why are Israel and the US conducting open hostilities against Iran, including operations by US Special Forces on Iranian territory and support of terrorist attacks in Iran by Mujahedin e Khalq as well as Flame, Stuxnet, etc.?
In the past one could have speculated that they help maintain the illusion of great instability in the Middle East, which helps justify huge financial support of the US and international arms industry (where Israel is an important player, BTW) as well as high petroleum spot market prices (the traditional reason to ensure that there is always conflict somewhere vaguely near our political allies' oil fields, but not too near). Oddly, though, oil prices have fallen in the recent past, presumably due to unusually weak demand (in spite of that all-time favorite: "The Summer Driving Season"). Military spending has not diminished, however, and in the US Republican politicians are constantly trying to take military spending "off the table" when budget cutting activities heat up.
Frankly, I never am able to figure out why such things occur until well after the fact when the other shoe drops and it becomes clear who is making the big bucks out of the deal. Make no mistake, though. This is about money, one way or the other. The "Israel is in mortal danger from the crazy mullahs" scam is pure horse shit. I guess we'll have to wait for Steve Coll [amazon.com] to quietly write a book 10 years from now with the details.
Re:Crazy (Score:4, Insightful)
Hyperbole, numbnuts. The weapon used in cyber-warfare are not one shot and gone, do not disappear in an explosion are not fired and used. Software weapons last forever, once released, released into the wild, anyone can access them, mutate, edit them for their own purpose. What you have is idiot government agencies basically handing over the tools of crime to criminals. Here's a back doors, here's a hole, here's an exploit, and here is the tool to attack it, go edit it have fun, do as much for profit attack to private sector as possible, "JUSTIFY OUR SECURITY BUDGETS".
One would have to become deeply suspicious at the real reason behind releasing these attack tools to the wild, where any organised crime gang can access them, where any foreign government can access, where skilled coders can edit them to their own purpose. This is criminal stupidity.
Re:Crazy (Score:5, Insightful)
Participators need to understand the culture of Iran.
Yes, let's all gather around, share our feelings, get to really know each other, sing "Kumbaya" around the campfire, and peace will follow. F***ing A.
The U.S. and Iran aren't preparing for war because we don't understand each other. We're preparing for war because we *do* understand each other.
What you say is unbelievably ignorant. I bet that you have never talked to any actual, living Iranian in your life and probably know absolutely nothing about Persian culture or even Iran as a country. (Like e.g. that you can go skiing there. You didn't know that, right?) In contrast to what you might presume with prejudice the Iranians I've met at conferences were friendly, not wearing beards, and had world-views that resemble most closely those of Europeans. (From my personal experience, Iranians are rather skeptical about the US, which is not very suprising given that the US has attacked and occupied a neighboring country.)
Moreover, the only people in US and Iran who are perhaps preparing for a war are the people in small circles of governments, each of which are corrupt in their own ways. The vast majorities of people in these countries certainly do not want a war. However, it is most likely that the US not preparing for a war with Iran, and of course Iran is not preparing for a war with the US either. (The latter would be so patently absurd that not even the current Iranian government would consider it.) Its all just rhetorics, geopolitical strategy plus some cheap attempts to score points in inner politics.
The Iranian people are suppressed by a theocracy. There is a dangerous moral police on the streets, so most of the live is within their homes, where they throw parties and dance to pop music. AFAIK, the situation is similar to other totalitarian states like the GDR or 70ies Soviet Union. People are careful what they are saying to whom and stay amongst friends. But most of them are pro-Western, although not pro American, and would like to live in a more secular and modern Muslim democracy.