Ralph Nader Moderates One Last 3rd-Party Debate for 2012 409
Late Tuesday, both the 2012 U.S. election (the popular vote at least) and the 2012 campaign season should be over. Tonight, though, whatever your ability or plans to vote are (see the current poll for a peek at what other readers claim about their intentions), you've got the chance to see one more presidential debate, to be moderated by Ralph Nader, and featuring third-party presidential contenders Gary Johnson (Libertarian), Jill Stein (Green), Virgil Goode (Constitution) and Rock Anderson (Justice). Yes, the same ones featured in another debate a few weeks back. (We promise, this is the last debate of this go-round.) If you're voting (or would, if you could) for other than the Democratic or Republican parties' candidates this year, what drives that decision?
A Wasted Vote... (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're voting (or would, if you could) for other than the Democratic or Republican parties' candidates this year, what drives that decision?
Because it's MY vote. I'm told at work that I'm "wasting" my vote by not selecting candidate XXX, but to me, a wasted vote is a vote for something I don't agree with. I like Obama for ending the war in Iraq, I like Romney for requiring OpenDocument format (ODF) when he was governor of Mass, but at the end of the day, the candidates have more in common than not: use of drones, no plan to scale back TSA, overfunding the military, corrupted by Wall Street, etc.
That's a loaded question to ask anyway, its similar to asking, "Why use something other than Apple/Microsoft?" Well, its about personal choice, and its about ideas. Sure, Linux will probably never win on the desktop, but you better fucking believe that Windows and MacOS are better operating systems now than they would have been had Linux never come along. The threat of losing to competition forced a better TCP/IP stack, it forced real security options in Windows, and it forced Apple to reinvent itself as a UNIX OS. And oh by the way, I happen to prefer using KDE over Apple/Windows.
Same thing with the political parties, we have come to believe (as a nation) that R/D are the only legitimate choices, and it has lead to stagnation of ideas and of real work being done. The Federal government is broken, and cannot even pass a budget. But you better believe if Mitt Romney loses the electoral college due to the L vote, the Rs will start to distance themselves from the "abortion" issue and religious nutjobs, maybe start courting non-whites for a change and it will be for the better. Just witness how the Al Gore and the D's came around on the environment when my boy Nader took the election from him in 2000. The mandate for MPGs is going to double what it was 10 years ago, and we are finally subsidizing clean energy instead of oil.
Re:Tomorrow night? (Score:4, Insightful)
But for those people, the election won't end until Wednesday!
Re:A Wasted Vote... (Score:5, Insightful)
It is nothing like asking "Apple or Microsoft?" You, as an individual, can choose Linux, but it's not like you're gonna get to have Johnson or Stein as your own personal president.
Our election system sucks. It's just about the worst way to choose elected officials. It forces all elections to come down to a binary choice. But wishing and dreaming won't fix it. The rules are the rules, and you have to pick the best strategy within them. Insisting on only moving your pawns one square at a time will lead to disaster, no matter how much you may disagree with the double-move rule.
Now, that said, if you're among the 85% of Americans who don't live in a swing state, then your presidential vote doesn't matter so much anyway, so you might as well try to get some extra funding for your third party of choice for the next cycle.
Re:A Wasted Vote... (Score:2, Insightful)
the fact that there are virtually no third party members in any elected office is the real problem. i've never understood why the libertarians who can't get someone elected as mayor somewhere thinks they have a chance to win the presidential election. and on the wild, impossible chance that a third party one there is no party structure to actually get anything done. the only chance a 3rd party has is by starting small. look at the tea party, in the early 90's religious zealots and small gov types(proto tea partiers) started taking over local school boards because those elections are easy to win if one has even a small bit of organization. this is exactly how michele bachman got where she is today. of the greens and libs and the rest would actually engage the political system instead of having these self absorbed ego fests every 4 years then we might actually see a change. if nader really gave a damn about anything but himself he would have run for mayor of oakland or something and worked his way up.
Peace (Score:3, Insightful)
If I can get a ballot, I am voting for Libertarian Gary Johnson. He would pull all the troops (Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, Germany, Japan, etc.) home right away and stop the drone strikes. That's enough for me. How do Democrats or Republicans expect people to believe in their government, when their government continues to murder innocent civilians in other countries?
Why vote third party? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're voting (or would, if you could) for other than the Democratic or Republican parties' candidates this year, what drives that decision?
Maybe it's because I only see minor differences between the two major parties. Under both the D's & R's, the size & scope of government has increased, and our liberties are being decreased. What liberties you ask? How about the right to have medical marijuana in a state where the voters have decided it should be legal, but the Feds are conducting record numbers of raids? How about not having a presumption of guilt when trying to travel via airplane? How about the right to not be spied on without due process? That's just the start. I'm not 100% libertarian, but I'll still be casting my vote for all of the LP's candidates on my ballot. We need competition in the political marketplace just like we do in the financial marketplace.
Re:A Wasted Vote... (Score:5, Insightful)
A significant vote for a third party sends a very strong message to the powers-that-be: you are messing up.
They listen. They have to, if they want to be elected again.
Further, a vote for a third-party candidate can help set up a better atmosphere for another third-party candidate 4 years from now.
According to polls, approximately 20% of the voting American public identify themselves as "independent" (in this case meaning they do not support the "Big 2"). That is the largest number in history.
According to other studies, it only takes 10% to make major changes, if they are persistent and sincere. We have twice that now.
Look out, Big 2.
And you can bet that I won't be voting for either of them. They're both so bad as to be laughable. Or they would be, if it weren't so tragic.
--
"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." -- John Quincy Adams
Re:A Wasted Vote... (Score:5, Insightful)
A vote for a mainstream candidate in a non contested state is the real wasted vote.
I think that a vote for a D or R in a contested state is even more wasted than in a non-contested state. Because the D&Rs dominate the only way to make them adopt change is to scare them into thinking they won't win the state - they have no fear in the states that are not contested.
So if you vote 3rd party based on your conscience this time around and the D or R that you disagree with more wins the state you have exercised the only leverage you have - that a party that doesn't represent you could have had your vote but they effed it up. If they want your vote next election, they need to adopt some of the positions of the 3rd party that you did vote for. Winners keep doing what they were doing because it worked last time. Losers change their tactics in order to try to win next time.
BTW, this is why I think the Tea Party is a sham - they aren't a real party, just a wing of the republican party. You can't vote for a tea party presidential candidate the way you can for a real 3rd party candidate.
Re:A Wasted Vote... (Score:1, Insightful)
From the perspective of the individual voter, no state is contested. The probability of changing the outcome of a presidential election based on your single vote is astronomical. I.e. the nation as a whole must come down to your state's electoral votes and your state must be within one vote of going either way.
Now, third parties should be careful about campaigning in closely contested states, but this isn't a concern for the individual voter. For example, the Green Party should probably have left Florida alone in 2000. By splitting the environmental vote they allowed Bush to beat Gore. While I support environmentalism, I must say that environmentalists can be one of the most counterproductive groups imaginable...
Re:A Wasted Vote... (Score:5, Insightful)
Long-term thinking like that doesn't work. If you give up a few presidential cycles working for your twenty year goal, then you'll find that the Overton window has shifted against you, the Supreme Court is stacked with idealogues who'll rule your every move unconstitutional, and the districts are gerrymandered to make taking over Congress impossible.
Like I said before, if you're not in a swing state, then 3rd parties are the way to go, if only to get them federal funding. But if you are in a position where your vote could set the course of the nation for years to come, you'd be a fool to throw that away for some long-term plan that may never come to pass.
Re:A Wasted Vote... (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly. I stopped supporting the Libertarian platform because I grew up and joined the real world, and realized that most of them were just GOP washouts.
While we would all love to believe that everything would be better if the government stepped out of the way, that isn't true. Human history is inconsistent with this fantasy, and Atlas Shrugged is just about as realistic as Harry Potter. With rare exception, countries with weak central governments are hellholes that no modern American would enjoy living in. Anyone who thinks we can get away with deregulation after 2008 is either a complete moron or at best deluding themselves. Taxes are the price of civilization, and regulatory forces are necessary in order to keep things in check. We need moderates on both sides of the aisle who are willing to balance out how we spend our funds and ensure our policies don't go off the deep end in either direction (Fascism and Communism are equally dangerous).
Re:A Wasted Vote... (Score:4, Insightful)
With rare exception, countries with weak central governments are hellholes that no modern American would enjoy living in.
Our central government has put more of its own citizens in jail than any other on the planet. Just because you live in a privileged suburb doesn't make it real for anyone else.
Re:A Wasted Vote... (Score:5, Insightful)
With rare exception, countries with weak central governments are hellholes that no modern American would enjoy living in.
China, Cuba and North Korea are a paradise then.
Taxes are the price of civilization, and regulatory forces are necessary in order to keep things in check.
that price is not infinite and have you ever heard of 'revolving door' or 'regulatory capture'? Do you have your lobbyist on the capitol hill? No? So why do you foolishly believe the legislation originated there is supposed to make average peon's life better?
Besides only ex CEOs and insiders work in those regularory agencies, or fucking morons who were not smart enough to make careers on WallStreet. They aren't going to catch anybody, they are either buddies with criminals, or to incompetent to see the forest for the trees.
Also regulations are mostly toothless, they are carefully crafted to look pretty from PR point of view but at the same not to bother the regulated too much. On top of that they attack past problems and are completely unprepared to deal with next crisis because nobody knows what exactly it will look like.
Re:A Wasted Vote... (Score:5, Insightful)
I like Obama for ending the war in Iraq, I like Romney for requiring OpenDocument format (ODF) when he was governor of Mass...
Only on Slashdot are these comparable accomplishments...
Re:A Wasted Vote... (Score:1, Insightful)
With rare exception, countries with weak central governments are hellholes that no modern American would enjoy living in.
China, Cuba and North Korea are a paradise then.
Taxes are the price of civilization, and regulatory forces are necessary in order to keep things in check.
that price is not infinite and have you ever heard of 'revolving door' or 'regulatory capture'? Do you have your lobbyist on the capitol hill? No? So why do you foolishly believe the legislation originated there is supposed to make average peon's life better? Besides only ex CEOs and insiders work in those regularory agencies, or fucking morons who were not smart enough to make careers on WallStreet. They aren't going to catch anybody, they are either buddies with criminals, or to incompetent to see the forest for the trees. Also regulations are mostly toothless, they are carefully crafted to look pretty from PR point of view but at the same not to bother the regulated too much. On top of that they attack past problems and are completely unprepared to deal with next crisis because nobody knows what exactly it will look like.
What are you suggesting? You think Goldman Sachs, Monsanto, Exxon/Chevron/Shell/BP, Westinghouse gives a gnat's shit about the masses and of dipshits who shill for no regulation like you? "Regulation" is what's keeping your drinking water drinkable, the air you breath breathable, keeping your body relatively free of known carcinogens and other toxins. But people like you want to get rid of all that. You trust the free market will take care of your well being. The vast majority of people in this country would spiral down into 3rd world status oblivion - and if you're not financially independent, then that includes you.
Re:A Wasted Vote... (Score:2, Insightful)
Just because you think Mitt Romney is the devil incarnate and ready to harvest your soul taking America down a dangerous road doesn't mean that he may have a few redeeming qualities too. There were several Slashdot stories about Massachusetts under the Romney governorship and adopting the Open Document Format with some pretty sound reasons for doing that. If you are too new here to remember those stories or so closed minded to have skipped over them, I can't help your ignorance on this subject.
You don't need to do a google search to find this stuff and certainly if you are older you can remember significant things like that... as his move did set the standard which pushed Microsoft and some other companies to adopt the Open Document Format as at least an option with their word processors and even do a pretty decent job of supporting the format.
While I don't think Barack Obama is the messiah either and in fact I am hoping he doesn't get re-elected, he has several redeeming qualities about him too. In particular I like Obama's space policy as a massive improvement over what George W. Bush or for that matter anybody since Lyndon Johnson. I can certainly name a few other things that I admire about his service to America, so why is it that you must be such a jerk and fail to see any good qualities in another person who lives on this planet?
Re:A Wasted Vote... (Score:5, Insightful)
You are misrepresenting my point about subsidizing not working and you know it. Subsidies in general result in more of the thing that is subsidized, are you telling me that generous welfare system causes disabilities and vetarans?
1) "Not working" includes children. Should we return to Dicken's Englang?
No. But if you think that passing the law by the govt is enough to make child labor dissapear, you are very wrong. That is putting the cart before the horse. In reality it's the other way around. Society needs to be wealthy enough to pass on the child labor, the law is merely icing on the cake that was baked already.
Starving families in 3rd world countries don't give a fuck and sure as hell won't allow their children to play and learn and have happy careless childhood when their very existence is on the line. If you passed such a law there, you'd create even more pathology, as these children would still be expected to bring money home, but now they would be forced to beg (optional mutilation for greater efficiency) or into illegal activities: crime, prostitution.
Besides if you are a parent, it's your fucking responsibility to provide for your offspring first and foremost, not everybody else's.
2) "Not working" includes veterans. Probably we just should let them die on the streets.
i got an idea. Stop waging wars on brown people, there won't be any veterans, problem solved.
3) "Not working" includes disabled people. Natural selection FTW!
being disabled sucks, no doubt, but do you think that whining about it will make their lifes better, with the sense of fulfillment? No, treating them as a special, worse kind of people who are not able to wipe their own ass without help causes 2 things:
- lower self esteem
- increased helplessness and dependency on the system
It's simple, lower expectations and you can bet the people will lower their performance to match them.
4) "Not working" includes retired people. Invisible hand of market wiped out your investments (remember, no FDIC!)? Tough luck.
Investments and FDIC? i thought FDIC secured boring deposits up to $X. I know the libertarians believe that such programs make people not do their due diligence because it's easier and more convenient to delegate the responsibility to bureaucrats than to cover your own ass (which means more malinvestments and outright scams slip through) but seriously, that's your main criticism? no FDIC?
Besides if there is a situation where much of the fake wealth evaporates, the only thing the govt can do is to paper the problem over and restore nominal number, but not the original purchasing power behind it. If such a disaster happens you can be sure there was a bubble and the correction was unavoidable either way. Besides the govt is not exactly a friend of retirees, they are that huge ugly position in the budget and the govt is glad the inflation lowers the burden of promises.
In the absence of a single freaking example of a libertarian country that is not a hell-hole like Somalia, we are forced to conclude that the redistributionist government is necessary for a healthy society. The only question is the degree of redistribution of wealth.
Does not follow. Redistribution of wealth is a direct result of democracy, because politicians play their electorate by divide and conquer strategies, and offering concessions to different interest groups in order to win votes. Underwater mortgage? we will help you! $20 worth of birth control too expensive? you got it! Farmers in redneck states are unhappy? Corn subsidies for everybody! Students know shit? Throw even more money at the problem and give govt backed loans to everybody!
Re:A Wasted Vote... (Score:5, Insightful)
> the O's are in for FOUR MORE YEARS bitch.
The next time someone here asks how we arrived at a point where the only ones with a shot at winning are two corrupt and manipulative parties that are carbon copies on all but a few wedge issues, please point them at this post and remind them that this is an "average voter".
Re:A Wasted Vote... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:A Wasted Vote... (Score:4, Insightful)
The Supreme Court is already stacked with ideologues who'll rule every good policy unconstitutional and districts are gerrymandered to make taking over Congress impossible. The electoral system is already thoroughly broken, so what's to lose?