BBC Clock Inaccurate - 100 Days To Fix?

mikejuk writes "The BBC home page has just lost its clock because the BBC Trust upheld a complaint that it was inaccurate. The clock would show the current time on the machine it was being viewed on and not an accurate time as determined by the BBC. However, the BBC have responded to the accusations of inaccuracy by simply removing the clock stating that it would take 100 staffing days to fix. It further says: 'Given the technical complexities of implementing an alternative central clock, and the fact that most users already have a clock on their computer screen, the BBC has taken the decision to remove the clock from the Homepage in an upcoming update.' They added, '...the system required to do this "would dramatically slow down the loading of the BBC homepage", something which he said was "an issue of great importance to the site's users". Secondly, if the site moved to a format in which users across the world accessed the same homepage, irrespective of whichever country they were in, it would be "impossible to offer a single zonally-accurate clock."'"

Re:Not-so-accurate source

[Inda]

It's a cop-out, nothing more.

Display the time in GMT. State that the time is in GMT. Offer a drop down menu showing "-12h" to "+12h", save the option in a cookie. Or don't. No one from the licence fee paying British public would mind if it only showed British time.

Use someone else's time server. There are plenty to pick from. No need to run your own.

It took me 2 minutes to type this. Who wants to implement it by Friday?

Re:Not-so-accurate source

[jamesh]

I'm not sure I can trust a source which says "it has been stated that it would take 100 programmer hours to fix" then quotes a paragraph stating 100 staff days

I think that's 100 programmer hours to fix the problems, and 100 staff days to field calls from a nation whose hobby is complaining about things that don't matter.

Re:Not-so-accurate source

[jtownatpunk.net]

Seems simple until you start working through it. First you have to start tracking every goofy fall/spring variation in the world so you don't display a time that's an hour early or late. Then, do you just trust that the user has the correct time zone entered on their computer? Maybe they're travelling 3 time zones away. Do you use ip geolocation to get their approximate physical location and display that time? Say you do that. What if they're in NYC and surfing through their company VPN in Los Angeles? I guess on a tablet or phone, you might be able to get the location from the GPS. Wating for location fix...waiting for location fix...waiting for location fix.

At some point during the discussions, someone pointed out that it's a silly thing to worry about since any device accessing their website already has the time displayed or available at the gesture of a mouse or finger.

Re:Not-so-accurate source

[Sockatume]

Why would a web site visitor want to know the local time of the page they're viewing?

BBC cannot win

[NeeNahNye]

The situation is crazy and I have every sympathy with the Beeb. The clock design itself is very nostalgic for those of us of a certain age who have grown up with the BBC. They naturally created a simple clock that reflects the user's local time. A handful of morons who cannot set their computer's clock properly complained that the BBC's clock was inaccurate. The BBC cannot be expected to implement a global solution which cannot rely on the local host having any accurate time information and takes into account time zones, geographical location etc even if the issue of running an accurate server-synchronised clock is trivial. Also note that everything they do is heavily scrutinised by rabid right-wing politicians and licence-fee payers. My only gripe with the Beeb is that that it's acquiesced to these stupid complaints and withdrawn the clock rather than telling the complainants where to go.

Re:Not-so-accurate source

[MichaelSmith]

GMT and UTC are important time references globally. I can see value in using them. And anyway, GMT isn't always local time in the UK.

Re:Not-so-accurate source

[MrDoh!]

Bingo. I deal with clients using our system globally, with ships crossing timezones/the dateline, handling requests booked in from other timezones, by people who travel around the world. In the end, the exceptions to any rules got silly. So the server's on Zulu time and everyone can look down at their own computer's clock/wristwatch/phone and figure things out. To be fair, there's some excellent tools for calculating all this, but keeping on top of it, and the risk if something changes and we miss it? Not good. Makes me wish the entire world was on one timezone/date, and everyone just got used to waking up at a different time around the globe. "What time is it in Cairo?" "Same as here mate" "what time do the wake up?" "whenever they feel like it, it looks like" And handling Brit/US officers? /groan. the date formats, THE DATE FORMATS! If only everyone used YYYYMMDD. Still, least I don't have to worry about having to figure out if to add tax or not depending if the shipment starts/stops/goes through certain ports and in what currency, at what rate. That was the stuff of nightmares.

Requirements, requirements, requirements.

[locofungus]

Gaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh. I thought this was a website that was supposed to be populated with technical, computer literate people, even programmers.

The end user requirement: "Show the time"

They mean "Show the correct time for my current location"

This is easy: Every (ok, perhaps there's someone still using an old IBM PC computer where you have to set the clock at boot) browser is running on a machine that has a local clock. So we'll use it to display the time.

Some end users then start complaining that the time on the BBC website is wrong.

There's two obvious reasons for this: 1. The user has taken the iphone/ipad whatever on holiday and haven't updated the timezone or 2. Their local clock is just plain wrong.

OK. So we've now established that the end user is incapable of correctly determining and setting the correct time and timezone on their machine. So we, as a programmer, have to do this for them. Cookies, asking the user, etc obviously aren't going to work. If they cannot get their own clock right then they're not going to get the website configuration right either.

This is hard, hard, hard to solve. IMO it's impossible - what do you do about people coming through proxies in different timezones?

The BBC have made exactly the right decision - the old solution was the correct one. PEBKAC. TPTB have decided that the correct solution wasn't good enough. So don't waste any more time or money trying to hack together something just to satisfy end user requirements that are fundamentally broken. End users can use the clock on their machine anyway and they won't complain to the BBC if it's wrong (presumably they complain to Microsoft instead)

Tim.

Re:BBC cannot win

[DNS-and-BIND]

Other websites manage to display the time correctly without the stupid hack of "show the computer's local time."

Maybe the reason that everything they do is heavily scrutinised by rabid right-wing politicians and licence-fee payers is because the BBC are corrupt to the core. [minx.cc] Seems like extra scrutiny is not only warranted but heartily welcomed.

Re:BBC cannot win

[Splab]

Really?

Do tell how they do that - getting the server clock is trivial, making sure your JS is keeping time accurate between requests is pretty much impossible.

Figuring out what time to show is bloody hard, especially since the people complaining are those who in the first go didn't manage to set up their computer correctly.

Oh, and a script pulling the time at intervals from some server(s) is going to be expensive; remember the massive amount of users and data the beeb handles.

I think they did the right thing.

Re: Not-so-accurate source

[spacec0w]

I think most would consider the licence fee a sort of tax.

Re: Not-so-accurate source

[maroberts]

The License Fee MUST be paid if you won a TV set

-- its a tax by any other name

Re:LMGTFY

[Big Hairy Ian]

Wow what a nothing issue. It's not accurate because it's tied to the machine I view it from??? Then it's the fault of the end user. The BBC have taken the correct approach to this issue they've decided we're too stupid to have a clock!! The scary thing is I suspect that in general they are correct.

Re:LMGTFY

[Spudley]

Wow what a nothing issue. It's not accurate because it's tied to the machine I view it from??? Then it's the fault of the end user. The BBC have taken the correct approach to this issue they've decided we're too stupid to have a clock!! The scary thing is I suspect that in general they are correct.

The point is that they've done this in response to formal complaints... which means that yes, in some cases the users *are* too stupid to have a clock, and not only that, those same stupid people are willing to kick up a fuss about it and raise complaints.

Re:Simple solution

[black3d]

You misunderstand the issue. The site WAS pulling the time from the local computer. People were complaining because the BBC site then showed the time wrong if their local clock was wrong. As it's impossible to accurately geolocate everyone (proxies, missing geo-ip info, NAT, etc) they were left with limited choices - 1) keep getting the complaints, 2) offer a variety of clocks or a dropdown list to choose your timezone (because, people who can't set their clock are going to know their timezone?), 3) offer a clock set to GMT only (against, most people don't know their own timezone so this would be fairly useless) or 4) pull the clock.

The BBC decided the best course of action was to pull the clock and then the petty, stupid complaints about it would stop. Now they're going to start getting the complaints about "I always go to the BBC website to find out what the time on my computer is, but you've removed the clock.."

Re:LMGTFY

[bWareiWare.co.uk]

Given that the vast majority of computers already display their time on the screen; it is reasonable to assume the only the purpose of an additional clock on the BBC website is to validate its accuracy.
n.b. a large proportion of the population grew up setting their watches to the BBC's pips, it is also natural to consider them an authority on the subject.

Re: Not-so-accurate source

[cgt]

If you own a window, you hereby agree to receiving my brick through it. Of course, this wonderful service is voluntary, so if you do not want to receive my brick through your window, simply remove any windows from your property.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re: Not-so-accurate source

[sentientbeing]

You can avoid car tax buy not having a car. Its still a tax.

Re:Not-so-accurate source

[Half-pint HAL]

I didn't talk about "a constitution", though, did I? The lack of a so-titled single document doesn't mean that there is no notion of "constitutional law" in the UK. Possibly the most important documents in UK constitutional law are the acts of union, which define this term "constituent country".

You might as well claim that I'm not from the UK on the grounds that I'm not writing in Welsh, the only language in the UK that has any official recognition in law....