Snowden Gave 15,000 Documents to Glenn Greenwald; Obama Cancels Russia Summit 531
sl4shd0rk writes "The American journalist Glenn Greewald, who published much of the initial info on illegal NSA programs, plans to release more revelations on the NSA spying machine in 10 days. 'The articles we have published so far are a very small part of the revelations that ought to be published,' Greenwald said on Tuesday. Greenwald further elaborated on public posturing which many nations are currently taking: 'The Brazilian government is showing much more anger in public than it is showing in private discussions with the U.S. government. All governments are doing this, even in Europe.'"
The U.S. decided to pull out of a summit with Russia next month, citing the decision to grant Snowden asylum as a factor: "However, given our lack of progress on issues such as missile defense and arms control, trade and commercial relations, global security issues, and human rights and civil society in the last twelve months, we have informed the Russian Government that we believe it would be more constructive to postpone the summit until we have more results from our shared agenda. Russia's disappointing decision to grant Edward Snowden temporary asylum was also a factor that we considered in assessing the current state of our bilateral relationship. Our cooperation on these issues remains a priority for the United States, so on Friday, August 9, Secretaries Hagel and Kerry will meet with their Russian counterparts in a 2+2 format in Washington to discuss how we can best make progress moving forward on the full range of issues in our bilateral relationship."
Screw You Obama (Score:5, Insightful)
Screw you Obama for giving Russia, with all their human rights problems like Pussy Riot, the moral high ground here. Screw you for making the US look like a bunch of mean-spirited whiners that have lost their shit because Snowden revealed the emperor has no clothes. It's going to be a long time, if ever, until we get back the home of the free and the land of the brave.
Re:Why are they putting a number on the amount of (Score:2, Insightful)
One would think the US government cannot be provoked so easily and would never react in such a pathetic manner but we live in interesting times.
Obama's got more backbone against the US itself (Score:2, Insightful)
Obama goes out of his way to avoid pissing off the Russians (stops expanding NATO, stops deploying missile defense in Europe), but is willing to break the US Constitution to spy on his own country.
Yay hopenchange!
Re:Screw You Obama (Score:5, Insightful)
until we get back the home of the free and the land of the brave.
The what now?
Re:Screw You Obama (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Screw You Obama (Score:5, Insightful)
for giving Russia, with all their human rights problems like Pussy Riot, the moral high ground here.
The irony is palpable!
"given our lack of progress on issues such as missile defense and arms control, trade and commercial relations, global security issues, and human rights and civil society in the last twelve months"
I guess there is a lack of progress on both sides....
America needs to own up to its mistakes... (Score:5, Insightful)
Small and vengeful and afraid (Score:5, Insightful)
That is what describes the world's rulers today. This reaction against Snowden and Manning confirm that.
Public vs. Private Discussions (Score:5, Insightful)
The Brazilian government is showing much more anger in public than it is showing in private discussions with the U.S. government
Private discussions are probably much more along the lines of "How much do you charge? Can we get a discount on this technology?"
"If you won't play MY way, I'M GOING HOME!" (Score:5, Insightful)
Is president Obama going to throw a little temper tantrum too? Perhaps stamp his little feet, and hold his breath until he turns purple?
--Maybe he will tell his mommy, or the secret service!
Seriously. Tactics like this (Cancelling a peace negotiation summit, over ASYLUM being GRANTED!) only serve to clearly demonstrate that Obama was never interested in peaceful relations with Russia, only with getting its way. All it does is say loud and clear to Putin that his distrust of the US missile infrastructure being constructed in the middle east is indeed a threat to russian national security, that the US is unwilling to have to compromise on anything.
If they cant play by their rules, they will stop their feet, cry, and go home.
This is the fucking pinnacle of childishness.
Re:Screw You Obama (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a perfect example of why left-wing politics are so unsuccessful. We need to stop trying to one-up each other, and focus on making whatever change is possible. If there is pressure on Russia for Pussy Riot or their anti-gay laws, and that pressure is maintained, there's a chance of changing those things. If we all start whinging about 'why don't you start caring about something else!' then the pressure drops, nothing changes; 500 voices yelling different things are a lot easier to tune out than 500 voices yelling the same. Just because the progress isn't aimed at what you, and many other people (myself included), feel is a bigger issue doesn't make it wrong.
Causes need people and momentum, splintering movements destroys them. Just because it's not guided at the worst of the worst doesn't mean that the human rights violations against Pussy Riot ok.
Re:America needs to own up to its mistakes... (Score:5, Insightful)
with everyone thinking/believing that their data is reasonably private.
Everyone? I think not. If anyone believed such a thing, they were simply naive.
Re:America needs to own up to its mistakes... (Score:5, Insightful)
Own up to your mistakes, America.
"America" is not a person. Did you mean to say Obama?
When Obama was elected, he made very different promises, including several very emphatic speeches about the need for protecting whistle-blowers. One could argue it was part of the reason he got elected...
Politicians should sign their platform as a contract and be held criminally liable when they deviate from non-ambiguous promises as soon as they actually are elected.
Re:Assange vs Mannings vs Snowden vs Greenwald (Score:3, Insightful)
What are the chances for Snowden to avoid going to prison if he returns home? Zero. Therefore it is quite clear Snowden will try to avoid it, no matter how ''correct' or 'righteous' he may be.
Not necessarily. I don't know that I agree with the view, but there is another: Give Snowden Immunity [nationalreview.com]
Security and Business competition (Score:5, Insightful)
Reading into Glen Greenwald's comments and some of his other statements, it would seem that much of the spying is used not for security purposes, rather it's to give an edge to certain select US businesses.
If this is true, it would be huge. Citizens don't count for much in terms of US policy decisions, but an unfair boost to chosen businesses would tick off every other business in the US and abroad - the economic ramifications would be nothing short of tectonic.
I don't understand why that information would ever be released. Are they trying to provoke the US government? I think so.
There really is a difference between short-term advantage and long-term gain, and it's one of the ways to measure intelligence. If Glen should withhold the information for fear of ticking off the US government, he gives up the potential benefits of a future where the US has been forced to stop such corrupt and illegal practices.
The long-term gain is enormous and long-lasting, the short-term pain is fleeting and ephemeral. That's why he is releasing the information.
In the long run, we're all better off by having this information out in the open.
Re:Why are they putting a number on the amount of (Score:5, Insightful)
They're acting like spoiled, jilted children. I'm frankly ashamed of this sham of a government we have running the "show" at the moment. I use quotes because it's a circus, not a government. The american politicians of 1776 would have these morons in irons for the rest of their lives. Well, more accurately the poiticians of 1776 would have these morons surrendering after a bloody 4 year war for independence.
Re:Translation ... (Score:5, Insightful)
He of the "Nobel Peace Prize for nothing more than saying he'd be interested in talking"
Oh, no!
Nobel Peace Prize for nothing more than being not Bush
US wouldn't grant asylum to someone leaving Russia under similar circumstances and call it defending freedom and liberty
I do not disagree with you, but Russia probably wouldn't be embarrassed by someone like Snowden coming forward. They don't pretend to be "free".
Re:Small and vengeful and afraid (Score:5, Insightful)
That is what describes the world's rulers today. This reaction against Snowden and Manning confirm that.
The only mistake here is it sounds like this may have been different in the past. If there was ever any pretension that it was different, the Whiskey Rebellion should have put an end to that and the Alien and Sedition Acts confirmed it.
At this point the veneer has just worn so thin that most people can see through the façade. Perhaps propaganda is a lost art, or maybe the People just have better communications tools and won't have the wool pulled over their eyes any longer by a fascist media establishment.
BTW, you forgot 'hypocritical'. The USG is still sheltering Luis Posada Carriles [wikipedia.org] (just one example). Meanwhile it wants Snowden back when every likelihood is he'll be tortured like Manning was (independently determined by Amnesty International, the UN, and the EU ministers).
Re:Why are they putting a number on the amount of (Score:5, Insightful)
I dunno. This sort of nonsense started pretty early on.
Alien and Sedition Acts [wikipedia.org]
Re:America needs to own up to its mistakes... (Score:5, Insightful)
No, I think America is pretty apt here.
Obama isn't the dictator of the US. Congress, lobbyists, the NSA and other people are also at fault here, as well as the general population for not being vigilant enough. This sort of thing doesn't happen just because Obama wants it, other people have to agree.
Hope (Score:4, Insightful)
Otherwise, by saying 'in ten days', he's only started the countdown clock to his execution.
Re:Why are they putting a number on the amount of (Score:1, Insightful)
The slaveowning aristocratic hypocrites who made a mockery of "liberty" would be too outraged that Black people and women could vote and become president to care much about someone leaking classified info to foreign governments. Although if they thought about it they'd be upset about that as well.
Re:Security and Business competition (Score:2, Insightful)
Compared to every other country on the planet? Really? Shit, only the foxnews crowd believes that the Chinese cyberwar is military in nature; it's completely economic and successful.
Re:Assange vs Mannings vs Snowden vs Greenwald (Score:4, Insightful)
I can see how both Mannings and Snowden have broken the law.
So has Obama. He deserves the same treatment Manning and Snowden will receive.
Re:Why are they putting a number on the amount of (Score:5, Insightful)
They're trying to make the point of the furor and debate over the last month was triggered by only a small amount of data. A good portion of the conversation has been an attempt to deflect the attacks to Snowden himself, instead of what the information showed.
Still, it resulted in multiple Congressional hearings; a very close vote to defund aspects of the PATRIOT Act; and a public act of perjury by the DNI.
His point is all that was prompted by only the tip of the iceberg, and they still have the entire polar expanse to uncover.
He could also be putting various public officials on notice that they better not lie to the public about what they knew and approved of, because he can quite possibly publicly call them on it.
Re:Screw You Obama (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a perfect example of why left-wing politics are so unsuccessful.
You say that as if right-wing politics is so much more successful.
The problem is neither right or left wing. The problem is that our politicians make a side show out of hot-button but ultimately not very important issues, so they can appear to differentiate themselves and 'take a stand for/against x'. In reality, they are sold to the highest bidder, working for an almost mutually shared agenda that is hidden behind all the bluff and bluster. Not many really bother to look deep when their standard of living is okay at least, and they have the lotto/tmz/vh1/football/whatever to keep them distracted.
Slashdot naivete (Score:4, Insightful)
Why do you naively believe that the US will ever stop such spying? Every industrialized country on earth does it including the UK, Brazil, Russia, Germany, France, Italy, et al.. because they can and because they have the technological wherewithal to do it.
For a site filled with supposed tech enthusiasts I'm seeing an awful lot of naivete and misunderstanding of technology. Once you invent a technology it doesn't get uninvented.
Re:Why are they putting a number on the amount of (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, the initial stories said that Snowden had acquired the information and intentionally waited until after the last election to release it. The reasons that I remember being given were that Snowden had HOPED for some CHANGE in the Government and for some wacky reason thought that Obama would be the one to do it. Apparently the data was released after he determined that the hope and change thing wasn't gonna happen.
Right now it sounds to me a lot like blackmail - the documents will continue to be released as long as the US Gubmint starts acting like spoiled brats. We can see that this hasn't changed, so we can expect documents to continue to be released. If they're smart they'll break up the data from least to most damaging and release it in that order...the more the US resists decency, the worse their reputation will get until the Americans (or hell, other countries) get together to kick some ass.
Re:"If you won't play MY way, I'M GOING HOME!" (Score:4, Insightful)
If you read even the summary, you know that the summit wasn't just cancelled for the asylum thing. They were probably going to cancel it anyway, because there are some big disagreements on the summit items. It just so happens that they can sneak in a notice of the US government's public displeasure while cancelling for other reasons.
That's what we call "diplomacy". It's basically cheap shots over wine and cheese.
Russia acted admirably in regards to Snowden (Score:5, Insightful)
it seems like most of the world, excluding us politicians/warwhores, really feels snowden acted. responsibly and in good faith. despite Snowdens motives do not loose sight of the fact that the NSA has redefined the law to suit their needs regarding metadata capture. this is not acceptable and needs to be answered by top brass. the NSA is not the law but they are acting as if.
regarding obamas playground tactics, that is very poor. he cannot deny the NSA has acted outside the law yet he pretends the problem is with Putin and his decisions. this is the act of a coward and politician and not a man with a conscience. at least Putin considered Snowden does have some rights regardless. tricky as this was to navigate politically I think Russia did the right thing and did so with prudence and regard.
Re:Hope (Score:4, Insightful)
That is the difference between the nutcases and the merely paranoid.
Re:Russia acted admirably in regards to Snowden (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact is that the Founding Fathers expected the Executive to push the envelope, and understood that is the nature of power. While I can certainly fault GWB and Obama (and indeed many Presidents who have judiciously interpreted laws in their favor to act in any way they pleased), the real fault here lies with Congress, which has, on the national security front, by and large let two consecutive Administrations do whatever they want. Yes, lies were to told to Congress, but it's not just Congress's right, but its duty under the Constitution to not simply take the Administration's word for things.
Congress may express surprise and exasperation at what the Administration has actually been up to, but I think it strains credibility to imagine that they were truly that taken aback. Essentially no one since 9/11 has wanted to be seen to be opposed to the "War on Terror", and so they have completely abrogated that most fundamental of obligations; which is to act as a check on the power of the President. Even now, as they decry the abuse of the authority granted to the Executive through legislation, they still want to flay Snowden for the crime of showing just how fucking useless they are.
He should be receiving a Congressional Medal of Honor and a Nobel Peace Prize for having shown the world not just what the US government, but numerous allied governments have been up to, and finally stirring the pot sufficiently that Congress is actually suggesting, however belatedly, that they never intended that legislation be interpreted so liberally,
Re:Why are they putting a number on the amount of (Score:2, Insightful)
Your idiocy is showing.
No, it won't be huge (Score:5, Insightful)
If this is true, it would be huge. Citizens don't count for much in terms of US policy decisions, but an unfair boost to chosen businesses would tick off every other business in the US and abroad - the economic ramifications would be nothing short of tectonic.
I hate to be the cynic, but no, it wouldn't be huge. Politics has become the greatest spectator sport of the 21st century. Everyone has an opinion about what's wrong, but no one's willing to act on it enough to create substantial change.
We nearly hanged Nixon (and Ford for pardoning him) for Watergate. We have bigger scandals than Watergate happening today, scandals involving the usurption of our civil liberties by our own government, but no one's doing anything about it except complain. Like the boiling frog [wikipedia.org], we've become so acclimiated to these changes that I doubt we'll be able to leap out of the situation before it kills us.
Re:Slashdot naivete (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes everybody does it but the NSA has taken it to a level completely unprecedented thanks to the vast troves of information flowing through the worlds fiber optics now and the fact they have tapped nearly all of it.
The real problems start when governments start spying on its own citizens, with no limits, and with modern technology. Its now possible to spy on just about everything everyone does, email, phone, social networks, credit card purchases, what books you read, how much electricity you use, where you go and to keep that information indefinitely. Its quite possible they can use the now ubiquitous camera's and microphones we all carry all the time to listen to and watch everything targetted people are doing.
It is now possible to use this information along with machine learning to automatically spot people who have almost any kind of interest, habit, bias or political leaning. You just need to compose the right query.
When does it get really bad. When the NSA, or someone with access to the NSA firehose, starts spying on the all the politicians, journalists and judges that form the government that is supposed to oversee them. Once you have dirt on all of them you control them. Once you control them the checks and balances essential to a democracy are completely gone.
You will quickly find yourself in a totalitarian state, something the U.S. and U.K. have been rushing towards at breakneck speed since 9/11. Only thing stopping it is if the people with all this power engage in self restraint. Chances are some of the powers that be, have been and will be haven't and wont.
This reminds me of a story (Score:2, Insightful)
I remember something that happened years ago uncannily like this whole Snowden affair.
Remember a decade back, when there was a guy running for POTUS as a decorated war hero at a time we were involved in two wars? The other side made some rediculous attacks on his war record. So did he react like a war hero? Perhaps attack his assailants in some way? Heck no! He sat around for months taking no action other than whining impotently about the lack of help from his opponent who wasn't even (provably) directly involved.
This is pretty much exactly how we've been handling this whole Snowden affair. Did we just send folks out to arrest him? No. So did we instead just quitely bide our time waiting for him to try to move to some non-shithole country so we can arrest him (in the meantime, leaving him effectively in a large jail)? Nope. We just sit on our ass for months whining impotently that Russia, who we tweak at every opportunity, should go out of their way to help us. Funny how similar these situations are.
So about that incompetent POTUS candidate...I wonder whatever happened to him. [state.gov]
Re:Why are they putting a number on the amount of (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think we've hit that tipping point "yet." I still have hope that we never will. You're correct in that things have changed. What it took then and what it would take now are different animals.
I was making a specific point though, which you've highlighted, and which escaped a lot of other people, I think. The people who did what they did in 1776 would not stand for what our government is doing to/against us now. They fought for a LOT more than the garbage we're sucking down willingly now. Our government is completely off base and way outside the lines of what should be considered acceptable.
They're acting like the rotten kids who get caught with their hand in the cookie jar, and then throw themselves on the floor screaming in rage at their parents, because they hope their show of emotion will distract from the sin they just commited. We're being led by a pile of toddlers.
Re:Assange vs Mannings vs Snowden vs Greenwald (Score:5, Insightful)
That's cute to try and make an equivalence, but one is the president,
If the president does it, it's legal? Is that the argument you're going for?
And the president didn't break the law
The Constitution is the highest law of the land. Violating the Constitution is breaking the law. Impeachment may be our only recourse under the law, and our government is too corrupt to deliver justice, but Obama is a criminal all the same.
also he doesn't run the NSA
The president is commander in chief of the military, and the NSA is a branch of the DOD. Obama is responsible.
Furthermore, the electronic eavesdropping was signed off by FISA, congress and the supreme court
ALL of whom have conspired to violate our Constitutional rights. That's how little the rule of law matters in the US anymore.
Re:That explains a lot (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:"Bilateral relationship" (Score:4, Insightful)
Even in the US, Obama would never be given the elimination of all Nukes. Nobody is that stupid.
He had no chance of getting that and neither did Jimmy Carter.
But the clear winner here is Putin.
He has American secrets withing reach if not already in-hand, plus he doesn't have to play kiss-ass with a buffoon in yet another pointless summit. Obama has no leverage here other than to pout.
Worse, its his own doing!
Instead of living by his campaign promises of open and honest government, under which he had an opportunity to rein in the excesses of post 9/11 security frenzy, he chose to double down or triple down, and start reading and archiving everyone's email, recording calls, and then insisting it was only meta-data.
So he's forced to cancel his trip because he knows Putin will laugh in his face at demands to turn over Snowden.
Even more telling: at precisely the point where Congress seems to be finally growing a pair: Obama unleashes his embassy closing of historic proportions, all based on an eavesdrop "conference call". (Like Al-Qaeda ever does that!).
I suspect nothing will actually happen, because it is entirely a fabrication by the NSA/CIA to divert attention and justify their violations of law. Of course there is the equal probability that they are just being played by Al-Qaeda setting up a phony conference call and mentioning grandiose plans, knowing it would be monitored.
Re:Assange vs Mannings vs Snowden vs Greenwald (Score:5, Insightful)
we changed the rules many years ago.
No, "we" didn't "change the rules". The corrupt pieces of shit in government decided on their own to ignore the rules. There's a difference.
Re:Congress considers Snowdon to be a whistleblowe (Score:5, Insightful)
It is Obama and the Executive Branch's job to enforce existing law. They're doing that.
Perjury is against existing law. When can we expect prosecutions of the DNI for perjuring himself in front of Congress?
The 4th amendment is also existing law, and Obama isn't enforcing that one either. It's clear at this point that Obama's oath to defend the Constitution is completely broken, and he deserves impeachment at best.
Whether or not Snowden gets punished for breaking the law matters much less than whether or not Obama gets punished for breaking the highest law of the land. He won't, and that is how we know the rule of law is meaningless in the United States.
Re:Slashdot naivete (Score:5, Insightful)
Bruce Sterling had some great lines in his recent piece The Ecuadorian Library [medium.com]
On the role of the FISA court in controlling the NSA:
"It's like a cardboard steering wheel in the cockpit of a Predator drone"
Most people don't realize the FISA court is appointed entirely by one person, the chief justice of the Supreme Court, John Roberts. Its a bizarre anomaly, a critical protector of the American Constitution completely controlled by a single person. If he or one of his successors goes bad, the Constitution can be eviscerated overnight and since its completely secret we probably wouldn't even know it.
Re:No, it won't be huge (Score:5, Insightful)
We nearly hanged Nixon (and Ford for pardoning him) for Watergate.
More precisely, the Democrats in Congress nearly impeached and removed Nixon from office with the expectation that this would be followed up by criminal charges. It wasn't going to hang Nixon, but it was going to lock him up for a while. Gerald Ford's pardon was a damn shame, because it cemented the idea in Washington that the president is above the law (no matter what Stephen Seagal [imdb.com] does). I'm reasonably certain part of the story was that the Clinton impeachment scared Democrats into making a tacit agreement with Republicans: Don't go after our crimes, we won't go after yours. And because there is no other party with any real power, the result is that both Democratic and Republican presidents can commit crimes with impunity. The intelligence agencies happily collect / create enough dirt on anyone else who might challenge them as well.
It's not about the citizens accepting what's going on. It's about the citizens hating what's going on, but seeing no viable paths to changing it. If you elect new congresscritters or a new president, that will simply change which don is currently in charge. If you protest on the street, your protest will be ignored by the media and you may well get your ass kicked by police. If you petition your government, you will get a form letter in response. If you file a lawsuit, it will be dismissed out of hand because of state secrets privilege. If you try a criminal approach, you'll be shot down by a heavily militarized police force. If you form an organization that starts having any kind of real effects, then you and your group will have assets frozen, and if you're truly effective then you will be the target of a worldwide manhunt regardless of the law or treaties or diplomatic concerns.
Re:Assange vs Mannings vs Snowden vs Greenwald (Score:5, Insightful)
Then you have an inability to read plain English. The 4th amendment is clear, no warrants shall issue without probable cause and without specifically describing the places to be searched and things to be siezed.
There are two justifiable opinions here:
1) Generalized surveillance is bad, so the NSA must be stopped.
2) Generalized surveillance is good, so the Constitution must be amended to allow it.
Those are the ONLY defensible positions. Encouraging the government to break the law makes you nothing but a craven authoritarian.
Re:Why are they putting a number on the amount of (Score:5, Insightful)
What happened so far:
The US government
* violated the privacy of Americans and foreigners by collecting information on all their communications, regardless of whether they are being investigated or not
* executes people in foreign countries without any trial
* tortures people in foreign countries without any trial
* invades foreign countries by fabricating evidence
* pursues journalists and whistle-blowers through all possible legal and diplomatic channels of pressure
* arbitrarily withdraws the passport of their own citizens without any legal process
* arbitrarily withdraws the right to fly in the US without any legal process
* demands extradition, trials of foreigners and fair treatment based on international law, but refuses it to others
Then, when these things turn up
* nobody is being held accountable [e.g. Bush, Rumsfeld]
* no compensation for the victims [e.g. torture victims, invaded countries]
* no guarantees it will not happen again
You can do whatever you want within your borders, and choose the rules you want to live by. But don't take your stupid decisions out on everyone else. And for the love of god, EU & UN, stand up to this bully.