Egyptian Security Forces Storm Pro-Morsi Camps Leaving Nearly 100 Dead 381
After weeks of protesting the ousting of Morsi (forming encampments in Cairo during that time), the Egyptian security forces forcibly broke up the protesters' camps early this morning. Things quickly turned violent, leaving around one hundred people dead, including at least two journalists. The interim President has also declared an indefinite state of emergency, "allowing security forces to arrest and detain civilians indefinitely without charge." The AP reports that clashes are not isolated to Cairo: "Dozens of people have been killed across Egypt Wednesday in clashes between security forces and supporters of Morsi."
Not a Coup? (Score:5, Insightful)
Tyranny of the majority (Score:5, Insightful)
The non-Muslims are divided into many smaller groups so can't form a cohesive opposition to the Muslim majority. The Muslims are well organized and it's easy for their imams to tell everyone to vote for the same guy.
What do you do when the majority want to take away your freedoms?
This is TRAGIC but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So Much for Democracy (Score:4, Insightful)
I've heard both sides of this. One says Morsi was the democratically elected leader and ousting him destroys any chance at democracy. The other side says he was setting himself up as dictator. As usual, the truth is probably sloppier than either side would admit. I do know that the military is still enjoying a lot of popularity, so this is likely to continue. I wish the country well, and I hope they get it all sorted out.
Re:Yet the US media downplay the body count (Score:5, Insightful)
NPR was reporting "at least a hundred dead" several hours ago. I think it's not the US media that is biased so much as you.
It was a coup against a coup (Score:3, Insightful)
Morsi executed his own coup when he granted himself dictatorial powers [telegraph.co.uk]. That, combined with the fact he was a corrupt and colossal failure who engendered a popular uprising against him, justified the army removing him from power.
Morsi's "democracy" was of the same sort that blessed vast swathes of post-colonial Africa in the 1960s and 70s: One man, one vote, once, followed by brutal dictatorship. Now at least Egypt has a slim chance of having something resembling a real democracy. Under Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood cronies, there was none.
News for nerds? (Score:4, Insightful)
Usually news stories on this site have at least a faint aroma of tech relevance.
Certain select stories are of such a high importance that everyone wants to talk about them and they appear on this site despite having no relevance to the major purpose.
That's fine, really it is. But I have to ask, where is the dividing line? Will we be seeing articles on Syria? More than 100 people are killed there on a regular basis. Fourty-four were killed in a mosque in Nigeria the other day. Is that significant? A white-ish guy shot an innocent black kid who was definitely not bashing the white-guy's head into the pavement - is that relevant?
I found this very interesting Third Amendment lawsuit [foxnews.com] (yes, Third amendment) and didn't submit because it was offtopic.
I'm not saying that world events are not important, and this one is pretty high on the importance scale. It's just that I avoid regular news sites and frequent this one because it saves time. Yes, I can skip articles - but note that I can skip articles in Google News and Reddit as well.
I can't find the link, but I remember a chart of "Slashdot readership" that showed a general decline over the last several years.
This leade to a simple question: Is Slashdot better for reporting generic news items, or should it be more about "News for Nerds"?
Re:So Much for Democracy (Score:4, Insightful)
The election was flawed inthe first place and rushed.
The way it was setup insured there were only 2 choices. Center and left was fractured while the right was united through a single radical muslim. So the rule of 2 applied where you had a former Mabarik henchman corrupt or a radical muslim and no further candidates? If you were Egyptian who would you vote for?
A dictator under corrupt American imperialist or freedom from a religious group who is fanatical, yet was not part of the old boss club?
American anology would be Pat Robertson who promises a Christian theocracy or King George III who promises a return to the old? Wouldnt must of you protest too?
These are what the post Morsi protests to ask the army to remove him were about? Majority of Egyptians oppose Morsi like the majority of Americans and Floridians voted for Al Gore, yet Harris threw out enough ballots to tip it to Bush combined with Electoral College caused the anti Bush bias you see and divided country. Egypt is the same. Divided with one group thinks its legit and the other feels robbed.
Libya is fine and done right
Maybe overturning an election (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not a Coup? (Score:2, Insightful)
It's the same post WW2 U.S. foreign policy it has always been: dictatorships are preferable to boogeymen.
Before, boogeymen = commies. Now, boogeymen = islamists.
You always need the boogeymen. The military-industrial complex needs justification.
Re:Yet the US media downplay the body count (Score:4, Insightful)
Only a few hours ago NBC was reporting only 15-20. The same with Fox. And NBC and ABC.
At least they seem to be correcting their stories.
The problem with the "always on" news cycle is that fact-checking isn't part of it. They all want to be first to report, so if it's wrong, who cares, we'll patch it later.
It's this kind of speculative journalism that gives conspiracy theorists fuel for the shadowy figures in smokey rooms trope.
Re:So Much for Democracy (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is both are true. Morsi was the democratically elected leader, and he was setting if not himself up as a dictator permanent brotherhood rule.
Still unless someone can prove he violated Egypts new Constitution Morsi is the only legitimate leader of that nation. Its not know if Morsi's effort to marginalize opposition parties would have been effective enough to see him re-elected with a public wise to the danger/agenda he posed; it was however to duty of anyone who seriously wanted a democracy in Egypt to wait that long and find out.
This is sham; and long term I am confident it will prove harmful to reform. You can't have a democracy and a precedent for simply removing elected leaders when you are not satisfied with the outcome.
Re:So Much for Democracy (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not sure what the Egyptian Army was to do. The protests against Morsi and the MB were massive, and I think it's well justified to call this a popular uprising.
Here in the West we're largely used to peaceful transfers of government and political parties, despite some ideological differences, tending to stick to the middle ground on most issues. While there are certainly protest movements, we haven't had them at the fever pitch that has been seen in the Arab Spring. For better or for worse we still, at least nominally, believe in the political process as the appropriate channel for change.
In countries like Egypt, where democracy has never really existed, and the democratic institutions that are there are more shams or for show than functional governmental and political entities, there is little or no civic notion of political process. A strong man falls, another takes his place. That seems to have been what Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood had decided, that somehow the uprising against Mubarak was simply another iteration of the same old process, and now Morsi could take his rightful place as King of the Mountain, inflict his movement's policies and his political allies on the populace by tossing out everyone from school principles to the head of a symphony orchestra with Muslim Brotherhood members.
So, for me, while I think it's troubling that the Army again asserted itself into the political process, the problem seems to be a distinct lack of political process. Clearly there are serious flaws in the constitution that was promulgated, and ultimately few checks on the powers of the Egyptian President and his cronies. This is something of a reset, but whether it will produce better results or not is difficult to say. One thing that has happened is that the Egyptian opposition groups and parties realize that their disunity is what delivered Morsi and the MB the last election, and that if they're serious about a change in the way the government works, they're going to have to stop the internecine warfare.
Re:This is TRAGIC but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
As much you dislike Bush, comparing him to Islamic fundamentalists is a bit far fetched. The reality is that the vast majority of American's are actually very well off (compared to the masses of Egypt and other countries in that region) and Bush did very little to change that. Even when the economy 'collapsed' we didn't have even close to the kinds of problems Egypt is having right now.
Eventually people are going to have to realize that Bush/Obama was not the great Satan; he did not doom us as a nation; other presidents before him have committed equally heinous acts, and life doesn't actually suck that badly in the US. People setting stuff on fire and getting shot for political/theological disputes is the exception rather than the norm here.
Yes, there is room for improvement, but there will always be room for improvement. We will never have utopia for the simple reason that my version of utopia is different from yours so we will end up with some sludge of a compromise in which no one is happy.
they gotta learn from their own mistakes... (Score:3, Insightful)
This is a military coup against a legitimately elected government.
The fact that 'merkins are askeered of the Muslim Brotherhood is beside the point.
Re:News for nerds? (Score:5, Insightful)
Very much this. People who complain that this or that news story isn't "news for nerds" are forgetting that the "nerds" who read Slashdot often provide more insightful commentary than any other group of private citizen commentators, and certainly more insight than what the majority of the 24 hour news-cycle organizations. Furthermore, because Slashdot has global readership we get commentary from people outside the United States. I love reading slashdot comments for the same reasons I like listening to the BBC on the radio on my local public radio station (KQED), because I hear fresh viewpoints that originate not in this country.
Slashdot's readership is one of the largest college educated and tech focused groups out there. It's clear to me that the people who read these terrible story summaries and comment here are frightfully smart, and it would be a terrible waste not to capitalize on the group intelligence present here whenever possible.
Re:they gotta learn from their own mistakes... (Score:5, Insightful)
oh yeah... we're all for "spreading Democracy", but then get our panties in a bunch when they democratically elect "DEATH TO THE GREAT SATAN".
This is a military coup against a legitimately elected government.
The fact that 'merkins are askeered of the Muslim Brotherhood is beside the point.
Dude, tough titties that your anti-American Islamist heros got booted by the will of the Egyptian people themselves. But only after they pissed off most Egyptians by shutting down legislatures and other means of usurping power.
I know it's hard for your little brain to believe, but the US is not the source of all evil in the world.
Also, I'm curious. Since Islamists tend to execute gays under sharia and you're supportive of Islamists who want to impose sharia, is it OK for Christians to simply oppose gay marriage? Or do you express your support for radical Islamists out of childish, reflexive, unthinking, downright-fucking-reactionary anti-Americanism?
Re:So Much for Democracy (Score:5, Insightful)
June 30, 2013 - mass protests erupt calling for the presidents resignation after severe fuel shortages and electricity outages
Understatement of the year.
It was arguably the largest protest in the history of the world. Some claims are as much as 14 million people, nearly 17% of the Egyptian population.
To put that in perspective, 17% of the American population is more than 50 million people.
If 50 million Americans were protesting in the streets demanding that Obama (or Bush) to be removed from office, and as a response Obama (or Bush) then held a 5 hour television broadcast declaring that he will not only not be leaving office but that additionally that the constitution will never apply to him, then I damn well expect the American military to do the same thing.
Re:So Much for Democracy (Score:5, Insightful)
That's easy to say in a country where the most recently elected leader won't be in power indefinitely.
Democracy is a subset of freedom, not the other way around. Democracy has shown many times to collapse into dictatorship, especially with new ones.
Democracy is the tool free people use. Democracy does not create, and sure as hell is not synonymous with, freedom.
Re:So Much for Democracy (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd expect a SS agent to cap him on camera.
Re:This is TRAGIC but.. (Score:3, Insightful)
The reality is that the vast majority of American's
are uneducated. [blogspot.com] In history as well as third grade punctuation.
Name another President that started with a budget surplus and ended with the biggest deficit in history, started TWO wars at the same time, and went into office in a boom and ended in a terrible economy?
Yes, Hoover went in during a boom and ended in a depression, other Presidents have had similar failures, but if there were any but Bush that had such a bad run I must have missed class that day. Bush was certainly the worst President in my 61 year lifetime. I thought I'd never see worse than Carter but Bush beat him hands down in his terrible stewardship.
Re:Not a Coup? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Maybe overturning an election (Score:3, Insightful)
Work on reading comprehension.
The four links you provided were not every election that has occurred. And your handwaving about other instances is... well, did it cool off your fingers?
There have been many unjust interventions throughout history. By many geopolitical forces. Not just by the U.S. I mean, get fucking real.
Re:Not a Coup? (Score:3, Insightful)
Too much money going around in lobbying and special interest groups ...
The primary "special interest group" behind American support for the coup, is AIPAC [aipac.org]. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, and Morsi was pro-Hamas. Support for Hamas ended with the coup, and AIPAC has threatened retribution against any politician that tries to cut off the billions of American tax dollars flowing to the new military dictatorship.
Morsi was a terrible leader, and deserved to be removed from office. But the way to do that in a democracy is to hold a recall election, not by sending soldiers into the street. As an American, I am very ashamed of what my country is doing.
Re:Maybe overturning an election (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is that, in a country lacking a strong democratic tradition (i.e. Egypt), the democratic process is likely to be (and was being) subverted by whoever fills the power vacuum, in order to prevent ever being dislodged. The Muslim Brotherhood is radical and uncompromising. They were not interested in sharing power, nor are they interested in sharing it now that Morsi's government has been deposed. It's their way or the high way. Unfortunately, blocs that want power-sharing and compromise represent a minority of Egypt's fractious political allegiances.
It is difficult, to say the least, to have a country with a new democratic process actually stick with it long-term when such a form of government and civil society is not in their cultural DNA. It takes time to build that tradition to the point where you have stable, orderly transfers of power after elections. Look at the US: no matter how chaotic our election campaigns are, no matter how confused or bizarre, people do not end up taking to the streets to kill each other over them. At worst, we call upon the courts to resolve them and then live with that decision. We are invested in and believe in the process, even if we don't always like the results.
I'm not saying the coup (and it was a coup) was a good option. It may, however, have been the best of limited options. I suppose time will tell. You could argue that Egyptians should have waited until the Brotherhood outright canceled or rigged future elections before taking action, but then you and I are not the ones who have to live with the consequences of it, either way (unless you live in Egypt, in which case I apologize for speaking for you!)
It may be a long while before Egypt finds stability and reconciliation as they attempt to transition from one-party rule to plurality and compromise.