British Police Foil Alleged Mall Massacre Copycat Plot 292
An anonymous reader writes "The Washington Post reports, "British law enforcement agencies averted a plot to orchestrate a large-scale terror attack similar to the assault on Kenya's Westgate mall, an official said Monday. Police were questioning four men in their 20s on suspicion of terrorism after they were detained Sunday in pre-planned, intelligence-led raids. A British security official said the men were planning a shooting spree akin to the Westgate attack in Nairobi, in which at least 67 people died. ... in a series of statements, the force said the men were all British nationals between the ages of 25 and 29, with roots in Turkey, Pakistan, Algeria and Azerbaijan. ... the London police firearms unit took part in the arrests. British police rarely carry weapons and their involvement suggested concern that men might have been armed." — The Sydney Morning Herald has video. Prime Minister Cameron recently expressed concern regarding such a possibility."
More info (Score:5, Interesting)
This was a somewhat more exciting series of arrests than usual.
Police shoot at car in suspected terror raids [telegraph.co.uk]
Armed police shot at the tyres of a car to stop two suspected terrorists during a dramatic series of raids to foil an alleged plot to attack the UK.
Officers fired special Hatton rounds – large shotgun ammunition designed to burst tyres or breach doors – to force the vehicle over in east London on Sunday evening. Witnesses also reported seeing police ram the back of the car before it was finally brought to a halt while a helicopter hovered overhead. In simultaneous arrests, armed officers swooped on a man in the street in west London while a fourth man was arrested at a flat south east of the city. A large number of armed officers were used because it was feared the men had access to weapons and were planning a suspected Islamist terror attack, the Daily Telegraph understands.
The head of MI5 is concerned [independent.co.uk] about the diminishing margin of advantage they have to detect such things in the face of a continuing threat.
Speaking at the Royal United Services Institute in London, Mr Parker pointed out the statistics of the threat from terrorism faced by the UK. The “plain facts”, he said, were that “from 11 September 2001 to the end of March this year, 330 people were convicted of terrorism related- offences in Britain In the first few months of this year, there were four major trials related to terrorist plots. Since 2000, we have seen serious major acts of terrorism in this country typically once or twice a year.”
Re:DOUBLEPLUS (Score:3, Interesting)
Depends where it was. In one of the three major cities, not long. Especially London. The armed Police in London have a response unit on the roads 24 hours a day, and they shoot first and ask questions later.
Just because the everyday copper is not armed it doesn't mean an armed response unit is not available.
Firearms unit (Score:5, Interesting)
One thing I'm actually rather impressed with. Rather than running around with guns all the time, apparently the BP have a special unit to deal with cases where they're warranted. Certainly it's a different culture than N. America in that regard.
Bullshit (Score:3, Interesting)
This story keeps on growing. In the British press this morning it was claimed that the men fought in Syria and that they have access to weapons in the UK. That was it.
Now the international press reports that the men were planning an atrocity.
However, the police have found no guns or, in fact, any evidence of any crime. They would certainly be crowing about it if they had.
This is such a non-story the BBC aren't bothering to report it.
Re:DOUBLEPLUS (Score:4, Interesting)
The presence of SAS men and Israeli commandos in Westgate, at the time of the attack is remarkable.
You find the antiterrorist forces responding to a terrorist attack to be remarkable? Much like the Fire Brigade showing up at a fire?
The only question for those in possession of the facts is this: Was Westgate allowed to happen by those who could have prevented it, or was it actually sponsored by those same agencies?
The leadership of the terrorist group could have prevented it, but it fit with their plans and usual method of operation. My question is, why do you keep denying that?
We don't bother with sidearms, we use BIG GUNS (Score:5, Interesting)
Quite.
It's a big mistake to think that the British police are unarmed. They're not.
They just don't bother with piddling little pistols.
If you're going to have a gun, have a BIG GUN.
Other than for plain-clothed detectives working undercover, pistols are pretty much laughed at by the British police. Compare the stopping power of a weeny little Colt or a Glock to that of an MP5 sub-machine gun, G36 assault rifle or (God help you if you see one of these - strongly suggest you change your plans for that day) an SA-80 or AR-15 assault rifle.
Although British police don't routinely carry sidearms, in high crime urban areas they will carry SMGs or assault rifles in a locked gun cabinet in the boot (trunk) of their car. In extremely difficult or vulnerable areas such as airports or tourist hotspots, they will carry MP5s around, mixing in with the crowd. The bobbies carrying MP5s are very nice blokes, feel free to strike up a conversation with them. Just back off the ones carrying SA-80s and AR-15s, there's a good chap.
Our largest island is only 700 miles long. Where on earth are you going to run to, that a radioed-ahead armed response unit can't get to first?
I can fully understand why lots of larger countries have routinely armed police - calling for backup could take hours. But it's extremely difficult to outrun the police radio on an island only 700 miles long with a heavily-armed SMG & assault rifle unit every 25 miles or so, and CCTV at every trunk road junction (interstate intersection).
(The police at Birmingham Airport used to have those truly lovely-looking P90 bullpup rifles for manoeuvrability in corridors & aeroplanes; from my recent visit it looks like they've swapped over to MP5s - a shame as the bullpups just looked like a wonderfully practical bit of design. I once saw West Midlands Police using one of those wacky Steyr Augs - again, lovely design - but seem to have standardised now on SA-80s and AR-15s. There seems to be a lot more standardisation across the various regional firearms units these days. Probably very practical from a co-ordinated response point of view, but a lot less showy from a nerd point of view.)
Comparison (Score:5, Interesting)
USAian approach to fighting terrorism: Let's have a trillion dollar war on some random country. That'll show em. Nobody will mess with us afterwards. Oh, and let's spend a fortune in tax dollars on an elaborate security theatre in all airports so that we turn air travel into an ordeal. Let's also hire goons to intimidate anyone who wants to enter the country as a tourist, especially if their skin is dark or if there's any stamps in their passports that show they've been to muslim countries. And let's spend more than then next half dozen countries combined on super-duper high tech weapons even if our own armed forces are telling us they don't want them.
British approach to fighting terrorism: Keep plugging away behind the scenes. Use the intelligence agencies to infiltrate terror groups and arrest them before they can strike. Keep it discreet, keep it quiet, and don't announce anything publicly until there's been an arrest. Meanwhile, let life go on as normal, keep going to work, keep on flying, keep shopping in busy streets, keep commuting on crowded trains and buses, and on no account do we change our way of life in search of an impossible-to-obtain standard of security because to do so would be to let the terrorists win.
I wonder which one is more effective.
Re:More info (Score:5, Interesting)
Since 2000, we have seen serious major acts of terrorism in this country typically once or twice a year.â
Really? I don't recall one or two major acts of terrorism a year since 2000. In fact I only recall one (7/7), and maybe you could count the bungled attempt to bomb an airport but those guys were laughably dumb. So what are the other 20 odd major acts of terrorism that I somehow slept through?
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:DOUBLEPLUS (Score:2, Interesting)
The thing with Switzerland is that people are living in an intact society and violence is not accepted as a means to solve problems. Also, you do not carry these guns around loaded, as they are assault rifles and the ammunition is sealed. Breaking that seal without orders puts you into very hot water. This eliminates all the accidental shootings and short-term rage shootings.
On the other hand, all these gun-owners have training on how to be effective with them. So if anybody wants to go on a rampage, it will be a bit different than in the US. It happens now and then, usually with few or no victims at all. The other thing I have observed is that the police actually perceives themselves as protectors of the population, so even the regular cops will do their best to stop a shooter even if that means risking their lives. One think I noticed in the past US school-shootings was how long it took for the police to get to the shooters. I can only attribute this to fundamental cowardice.
Last school-shooting in Germany, it took less than 5 minutes for the police (no, not SWAT) to have the shooter disabled (no, not killed). True, the police officers were wounded in this too. But a bit of personal physical courage is a requirement for that job and it allowed EMTs to get in there very fast. Which is possibly another thing: If you let shot people lying around for hours, quite a few of them that could have been saved will die.