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Israel Helped the NSA Spy on Former French President According To Documents 215

Posted by samzenpus
from the with-a-little-help-from-my-friends dept.
rtoz writes "It wasn't the US government breaking into the private communications of former French President Nicolas Sarkozy, according to top secret documents unearthed by Edward Snowden and published in Le Monde – it was the Israelis. A four-page internal précis regarding a visit to Washington by two top French intelligence officials denies the NSA or any US intelligence agency was behind the May 2012 attempted break-in – which sought to implant a monitoring device inside the Elysee Palace's communications system – but instead fingers the Israelis, albeit indirectly. A few days back, Le Monde reported that the NSA Intercepted French Telephone Calls 'On a Massive Scale' ."
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Israel Helped the NSA Spy on Former French President According To Documents

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  • I mean, they paid on the "One day I will call upon you to do a service for me" variety plan, but here we are.

    It's too bad that system wasn't trained on the charlatans on Wall Street so their crimes could have been accounted for and punished. You know these guys are stupid enough to brag on the phone and via email about their crimes... All the hysterical email leaks from the last crisis prove that out pretty handily. These guys are so arrogant they think themselves "above the law" because they "figured it out."

    • by i kan reed (749298) on Monday October 28, 2013 @09:43AM (#45257851) Homepage Journal

      One of those rules for criticizing Israel while not seeming like an anti-Semitic cock is #2: not to relate your statement to a conspiracy by banks(because stereotypes).

      #1 is not to deny the holocaust, but you didn't do that, so congratulations.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward

        One of those rules for criticizing Israel while not seeming like an anti-Semitic cock

        One of the rules for thinking for yourself while not being a lemming are #2: realize that a man's hatred or love of a group of people has nothing to do with the factual truth of what is being said. #1 is to let racism or ethnocentrism be HIS problem and stop anointing yourself the arbiter of all that is righteous.

        Yes that takes a bit of humility and restraint and those are in short supply these days, for nothing is more fashionable than climbing on your high horse and telling other people how they shoul

      • by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 28, 2013 @10:03AM (#45258007)

        Pardon me but the ONLY rule for criticizing Israel while not seeming like an anti-semite is... not criticizing Israel.

        • by Richard_at_work (517087) <richardprice.gmail@com> on Monday October 28, 2013 @10:37AM (#45258357)

          Pardon me but the ONLY rule for criticizing Israel while not getting branded an anti-semite is... not criticizing Israel.

          Fixed that for you. And I'm serious - this isn't about actual antisemitism, it's about suppression of criticism by claiming racism.

          • by causality (777677)

            Pardon me but the ONLY rule for criticizing Israel while not getting branded an anti-semite is... not criticizing Israel.

            Fixed that for you. And I'm serious - this isn't about actual antisemitism, it's about suppression of criticism by claiming racism.

            It's standard fare in politics sadly. If you want immigration laws (even just existing ones on the books) to be enforced, you're racist against Mexicans (an accusation made by people who have never reviewed Mexico's much stricter immigration laws!). If you criticize Israel, you're an anti-Semite. If you're against President Obama's politics or Eric Holder's actions, you're racist against black people. Etc etc. I wonder what such people would say if we ever developed a real problem with millions of whit

            • "It comes from people who don't want reason and logic to enter into the discussion because these are threats to their position, a position based on self-interest and not based on what makes good policy or which view is closest to the truth. "

              +1. Trying to steer towards a hidden agenda while making you look like Mother Teresa.

              I suggest pick up the book "The Holocaust Industry" by Norman Finkelstein.

          • by couchslug (175151)

            Semites are not a "race", nor is "Judaism" a race.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people [wikipedia.org]

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews [wikipedia.org]

            • Neither is "black", but I'd still be classed as racist if I used a persons colour in a negative manner.

            • by Arker (91948)

              Good point.

              However the other gentleman has already replied with a good counterpoint. The fact is that there is only one human race currently living, so strictly speaking 'racism' - if by that you mean discrimination against those of another race - is impossible. We would have to first fine a way to resurrect a neanderthal, THEN we could discriminate against him.

              But in fact racism is real and rampant, but racism is not discriminating by race, it's more subtle than that. It's *the delusion that multiple races

      • by CanHasDIY (1672858) on Monday October 28, 2013 @10:16AM (#45258119) Homepage Journal

        One of those rules for criticizing Israel while not seeming like an anti-Semitic cock...

        There is only one rule for that; preface every criticism of Israel with the following:

        "Don't get me wrong, I love Jon Stewart, but..."

        For example:

        Don't get me wrong, I love Jon Stewart, bit it seems to me the Israeli government uses Judaism as a weapon against their detractors, since nobody can say anything about Israel's bad behavior without being accused of anti-semitism.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          One of those rules for criticizing Israel while not seeming like an anti-Semitic cock...

          There is only one rule for that; preface every criticism of Israel with the following:

          "Don't get me wrong, I love Jon Stewart, but..."

          For example:

          Don't get me wrong, I love Jon Stewart, bit it seems to me the Israeli government uses Judaism as a weapon against their detractors, since nobody can say anything about Israel's bad behavior without being accused of anti-semitism.

          This times a million: Distract from the actual legitimate criticism of the NSA (that it would have been better used to track down wall street swine who committing multiple felonies and should have been liable for thousands of years of prison time) by accusing the speaker of an invented anti-semitism.

          Congratulations: Goebbels would be proud.

          • Distract from the actual legitimate criticism of the NSA (that it would have been better used to track down wall street swine who committing multiple felonies and should have been liable for thousands of years of prison time)

            Note that the NSA's legal mandate is EXTERNAL signals intelligence.

            Sending the NSA to investigate Wall Street is as illegal as, well, having them monitor Americans' cell phone conversations.

            If you want to go after Wall Street, use the Justice Department and the FBI.

        • Remind me...why are they so easily offended?

          • Remind me...why are they so easily offended?

            *shrug* try asking them.

            Were I to wager a guess, I'd say they don't actually have as thin of skin as they portend to*, but as I said before, pull the race card at every given opportunity because it's handy and convenient - nobody** wants to be thought of as an anti-semite, do they?

            * I of course refer to the Israeli gov't when I say this; I've known some Israeli people in my day, and they were just like the people I've met from any other culture: interestingly varied.

            ** Excluding obvious, overtly anti-semeti

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by cold fjord (826450)

          ... it seems to me the Israeli government uses Judaism as a weapon against their detractors, since nobody can say anything about Israel's bad behavior without being accused of anti-semitism.

          Many people use anti-Zionism against Israel as a cloak for anti-Semitism.

          The European Left and Its Trouble With Jews [nytimes.com]

          • ... it seems to me the Israeli government uses Judaism as a weapon against their detractors, since nobody can say anything about Israel's bad behavior without being accused of anti-semitism.

            Many people use anti-Zionism against Israel as a cloak for anti-Semitism.

            The European Left and Its Trouble With Jews [nytimes.com]

            Yes, but it's also true that many people who claim that anti-Zionism is a cloak for anti-Semitism use it as a club to bash Israel's detractors, regardless of the legitimacy of the complaints.

            Basically, there are bad actors on both sides of the fence. Point being, just because someone points out the bad behavior of the Israeli government does not make them defacto anti-Semites.

          • Many people use anti-Zionism against Israel as a cloak for anti-Semitism.

            The European Left and Its Trouble With Jews [nytimes.com]

            Do you agree they are separate things though? Would you say it is possible to be opposed to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and illegal annexation of land, because of the facts rather than their Jewishness? Because otherwise you're just saying "all criticism of Israel is actually anti semitic", period (let's put aside the fact that Palestinians are Semites also).

            I tend to think that true anti Semites, of which there are a few but not nearly as many as Abe Foxman would have you believe, don't bother w

            • by Sun (104778)

              Do you agree they are separate things though? Would you say it is possible to be opposed to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and arguably illegal annexation of land, because of the facts rather than their Jewishness?

              (Sorry for fixing your quote. Otherwise your establishing your views as fact, which I'm sure you're too interested in the truth to do).

              As someone who often takes part in those highly informed discussions (aka mud slinging), almost always on the Pro-Israeli side, I've come to categorize the anti-Israel commenters into three groups:

              Informed Dissenters
              Those are people who take an objective look at things, and decide they disagree with some of the decisions taken by the Israeli government.

              You hardly ever hear t

              • According to international law the West Bank settlements are illegal, period. Nothing arguable about it.

                Other than fixing my quote, you appear to be saying that yes there are various types of Israel critics, but essentially they are all different shades of stupid. Which you distinguish only by your ability to set them straight. Thankfully you allow there might be a tiny minority that is reasonable but remains unheard.

                Well I can agree that it is hard to find reasonable discussion on the subject. That is on t

                • by Sun (104778)

                  According to international law the West Bank settlements are illegal, period. Nothing arguable about it.

                  So, essentially, you are saying "I am right, and how dare you say otherwise". Exemplary use of logic and facts to foster discussion. Even if we accept the "illegal" part, however, (and, like I said, claiming there is no argument over that point is easily proven wrong), to the best of my knowledge, the settelments have never been annexed, unlike what your claim says.

                  Other than fixing my quote, you appear to be saying that yes there are various types of Israel critics, but essentially they are all different shades of stupid.

                  I do not think I did. In fact, I don't think any of the synonyms of "stupid" even appeared in my comment. The middle groupd I clearly labeled as

      • One of those rules for criticizing Israel while not seeming like an anti-Semitic cock is #2: not to relate your statement to a conspiracy by banks(because stereotypes).

        #1 is not to deny the holocaust, but you didn't do that, so congratulations.

        One of the rules for not being a sheep is not to let other people's prejudices get in the way of legitimate criticisms of Israel, Wall Street, or anybody else. The perception, that i was connecting the two, is a result of your prejudice, not mine. I made a suggestion for a better use of such spying authority--i.e. point it at actual criminals, not private citizens. You made the leap to some sort of "conspiracy" of Wall Street and Israel.

        So take yourself to task for being an anti-semite.

      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Rule #1 for not looking anti-Semitic is to know what a semite is, take a look:
        http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semite
        You see, Arabs are also semites, so Israel looks quite anti-Semitic if you take that on account.

      • Where did he mention the banks? All he said was they should've spied on Wall Street to get evidence for convictions; presumably for the largest financial scandal in US history. You basically back up the fallacy that criticizing Israel will be turned into an antisemitic rant.

        He made no mention or illusion of evil Jewish people running our banks, or whatever that conspiracy is.

      • If it was the Guardian making this claim, it would have some bearing. They have some authority in the leaks and have the source material to find this information.

        French media just likes to blame Israel and Jews for everything, so I find little credibility to this article.

        Unless I missed something in the article, everything basically says the US and Israel both deny having any involvement in spying on the French. The Guardian printed that it was the NSA that was spying on the French. While I wouldn't be s

        • In fact, this newspaper has even been found guilty by a French court for "racist defamation" against Israel and the Jewish people in the past.

          Sources:
          http://rense.com/general65/aanit.htm [rense.com]
          http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/000375.html [tomgrossmedia.com]
          http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1415355/posts [freerepublic.com]

          As a poster below pointed out, the NSA practically confessed to the spying:

          The American authorities noted that the activities of the intelligence service "were carried out according to law."

          And the doc

          • by cusco (717999)

            Rense? Free Republic? I didn't realize that anyone even went to FR any more, the last time I visited it there were about 30 hard core birthers in an echo chamber left.

      • There is a global bankers' conspiracy, they do manipulate governments, and there is nothing intrinsically anti-Semitic about saying so.
    • by TheCarp (96830)

      Right because Isreal is totally the innocent undertaker, who came to the Big Bad US looking for justice that he couldn't get through normal means :)

      If I was going to use a Godfather analogy I would go more for:

      If Don Corleone had all the judges, and the politicians in New York, then he must share them, or let us others use them. He must let us draw the water from the well. Certainly he can present a bill for such services; after all... we are not Communists."

      • Right because Isreal is totally the innocent undertaker, who came to the Big Bad US looking for justice that he couldn't get through normal means :)

        If I was going to use a Godfather analogy I would go more for:

        If Don Corleone had all the judges, and the politicians in New York, then he must share them, or let us others use them. He must let us draw the water from the well. Certainly he can present a bill for such services; after all... we are not Communists."

        I never viewed the undertaker as "innocent," not in the least. I'm surprised to hear you say you did: He was a coward who wanted violence done without having to risk committing it himself--but I don't think that makes him "innocent," not in the least. He contracted for retribution from a murderous mob-boss.

        • by TheCarp (96830)

          He contracted retribution because the so-called justice system failed him. Those cock suckers walked free from court the same day, they even smiled at him. They got off after beating his daughter for resisting their attempt to rape her.

          I find no fault at all with him.

          • He contracted retribution because the so-called justice system failed him. Those cock suckers walked free from court the same day, they even smiled at him. They got off after beating his daughter for resisting their attempt to rape her.

            I find no fault at all with him.

            "I don't blame him" and "innocent" are two different things.

            I'm not saying I might not have pursued similar course of action in the same circumstances, but he was clearly far from innocent. How would he be connected enough to the mob to ask such a favor in the first place? You don't just "show-up" uninvited at the Don's daughter's wedding...

            • by TheCarp (96830)

              > "I don't blame him" and "innocent" are two different things.

              I don't make much distinction and if I did I would point out that there was no scene where he was prosecuted and convicted for anything so, he is in fact, innocent. Just as we know Al Capone was innocent of everything except tax evasion.

              I mean generally speaking I am against any sort of non-consensual violence, but I am no pacifist. I am perfectly fine taking the general view that committing non-defensive violent acts can merit a response. The

    • by TapeCutter (624760) on Monday October 28, 2013 @10:28AM (#45258241) Journal

      It's too bad that system wasn't trained on the charlatans on Wall Street

      Um, hello? The Snowden revelations are almost exclusively about "economic espionage", the headlines are about who's phones were tapped and which boardrooms were bugged. "Wall street" are the people who want this data and the MI complex are delivering it to them on a silver platter. Why the fuck would they want to point a gun at their own head?

      There is no conspiracy, just like minded people playing golf and screwing everyone they can, including each other, this sort of spying has been going on forever and it's not going away. Having said that and given the history of the 20th century, you would have to be a fool to be unconcerned when the NSA appear before congress and either lie or refuse to answer questions, then walk away with their career intact. That is a clear sign the MI complex is telling congress to go fuck itself (in polite political language). Whatever the pro/cons of the argument, the current belligerence of these people is a threat to the rule of law and a wedge that will polarise international relations..

      • by causality (777677)
        It's a shame that Congress doesn't grow a pair of balls and press criminal charges against the liars.
        • by cusco (717999)

          There was a politician in Peru who used to call out the military for its excesses in the battle against the Sendero Luminoso. He abruptly retired when he received a photo in the mail of his daughter leaving her grade school, taken through a rifle scope. Keep in mind that corporations like Blackwater (whatever its name is today) knowingly hire international war criminals guilty of massacres of peasants, and then tell me how much chance you think there is that Congress will "grow a pair of balls".

  • by Noryungi (70322) on Monday October 28, 2013 @09:43AM (#45257859) Homepage Journal

    The US NSA is the very first thing you are looking for in a good partner: a good listener!

    This is becoming better and better all the time...

  • Old tune (Score:2, Insightful)

    by hebertrich (472331)

    We all know the Israeli secret services are total bastards , they killed Arafat spy on everyone etc .. We all know the NSA is again total bastards that stop at nothing. What we need to know is how to defeat them and pull the reins back in and get back in control of those gone rogue agencies that have respect for neither Constitution ,Law nor Country . The secret services play by a different set of rules .. you have the right to do everything , as long as you don't get caught .
    They got caught , yet face non

    • by FridayBob (619244)

      ...What we need to know is how to defeat them and pull the reins back in and get back in control of those gone rogue agencies that have respect for neither Constitution ,Law nor Country...

      That may be a tall order in some other countries, but in the United States the way to do it is with Article Five of the Constitution, which says that there are two ways to alter that document, the second one being a national convention assembled at the request of the legislatures of at least two-thirds (min. 34) of the 50 states, after which the change must be ratified by at least three-fourths (min. 38) of the states.

      Article V is a powerful tool that way included specifically to bypass a corrupt Congres

    • Re:Old tune (Score:4, Insightful)

      by ImOuttaHere (2996813) on Monday October 28, 2013 @12:39PM (#45259755)

      This, to me, is one of the many fascinating things about America. When sh*t like this happens, there is the inevitable question of what kinds of things people can do to change the way things are. Yet, when you talk with people from other countries and you talk about this kind of sh*t, they many times will respond with what they personally are doing to change the way things are.

      Come on, America. You're a smart bunch of people. Save yourselves. You really need to figure it out. Seriously. There are at LOT of things that can be done to rein in your out of control three letter agencies, politicians who want to burn the place to the ground, and the greedy bankers and corporate officers who know you'll continue to buy the sh*t they have for sale. Nothing will change until you actually _do_ something. So get with it and _do_ what _needs_ to be done.

      ... What we need to know is how to defeat them and pull the reins back in and get back in control of those gone rogue agencies that have respect for neither Constitution ,Law nor Country ...

  • Considering how much spying Israel does on the U.S., and all the secrets they've stolen from us in exchange for unequivocal support at the UN, and then ask to have their spies returned to them because they're "heroes", this shouldn't surprise anyone.

  • by Austrian Anarchy (3010653) on Monday October 28, 2013 @09:53AM (#45257929) Homepage Journal
    From these "world leaders" to journalists, why all of the 'surprise?' Spying is one of the things that governments do, ALL of them. They ALL spy on their allies and foes alike and it has always been this way. In the US/Israel context, we both spy on each other all day, every day, and assist with information on other countries too. France does the same thing, so does England. Nothing new here.
    • by Sarten-X (1102295)

      Remember how the US started throwing political trouble at France after 9/11, when we found out they were selling weapons to our enemies? And remember how we've been poking fun at the Russians for years because of their Soviet history? And remember how we've been complaining about Chinese manufacturing and work conditions while still buying their products?

      Everyone else remembers.

      Our attitude since the Cold War has been that we are perfect infallible masters of all things political. No revolutions, a stable e

    • by T.E.D. (34228)

      This is exactly right.

      Of course part of the continual mutual spying is that whenever one country screws up and gets caught spying on an ally, the government of the "victim" has to feign outrage. Public opinion demands it, and a politician either rides the wave, or gets smashed against the rocks by it.

      So there's really no point in trying to point out that "everyone does it" to people expressing outrage about spying. Just let the kibuki theater proceed at its own pace. Its nature's way.

    • by X.25 (255792)

      From these "world leaders" to journalists, why all of the 'surprise?' Spying is one of the things that governments do, ALL of them. They ALL spy on their allies and foes alike and it has always been this way. In the US/Israel context, we both spy on each other all day, every day, and assist with information on other countries too. France does the same thing, so does England. Nothing new here.

      I think you might be confusing "spying" with "breaking all kinds of local and international laws, crossing all possible lines and doing acts to others on a daily basis which your own government considers as acts of war".

      But please, just keep justifying.

    • by Yvanhoe (564877)
      I was shocked in 2008 when I read that Sarkozy and Merkel talked to each other about EU policies through SMS. Apparently, both French and German leaders do think that spying does not happen, that cell phones are secure, and are genuinely surprised by what happened.

      The only thing Snowden has really revealed was the degree of incompetence of the politicians in my country (France)
  • The thing about all this is, the speed of the reaction is inversely proportional to the size of the truth. When a reality star is caught with drugs, the reaction is instantaneous. When Congress self-destructs, it takes months and years for the reaction and its consequences to fully unfold. What we're talking about here is the ripping away of the entire illusion under which we've been living the past 60 years. It's big, and most people don't even want to try to wrap their heads around what it means; but

    • When Congress self-destructs,

      Ah, to dream the impossible dream...

      Hate to tell ya, bud, but all that 'self-destruction' we've seen of late is nothing but partisan brinkmanship, and has all become just another part of the political game; you can tell by the fact that congresscritters are still on TV blaming each other, rather than hiding from the lynch mobs, in fear for their lives.

      I will say, I learned something from this latest government shutdown - we, the People, don't really seem to need feds quite as much as the try and convince us

  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 28, 2013 @10:04AM (#45258025)

    Read the last lines.
    "The American authorities noted that the activities of the intelligence service "were carried out according to law"."

    It's almost like a confession from the US.

    Main article says, France evidence points to USA. US denies it. US says it asked 1st and 2nd party countries if they did it, they say no. It did not ask Israel because Israel won't talk to US about France.

    Hence finger points to Israel. Israel denies it.

    Occams razor.
    Look, the evidence says it was US, US spied on Merkel, US practically confesses when asked "it was done legally" and has all the tools and bases and so on.

    NSA.

  • right (Score:4, Interesting)

    by superwiz (655733) on Monday October 28, 2013 @10:15AM (#45258111) Journal
    So this is the "let's accuse the Israelies so that the US would have no choice but to admit that it was really us" trick? Thanks. I think I already saw that episode of West Wing.
  • by wonkey_monkey (2592601) on Monday October 28, 2013 @11:15AM (#45258793) Homepage

    Israel Helped the NSA Spy on Former French President According To Documents

    Where does it say Israel helped the NSA? The French accused the US, the US denied it, asked everyone else about it (except the Israelis) and everyone else denied it as well. Right?

  • by T-Bucket (823202) on Monday October 28, 2013 @12:11PM (#45259397) Homepage

    The NSA is SUPPOSED to be spying on foreign countries. IS that not what our spy agencies do? (CIA, NSA, etc). The issues is with them spying on Americans. Hell, I WANT them tapped into every other government on the planet. The more we know about others, the better for us. Just stay out of my damn e-mail.

    (To be fair, I also understand that, say, the french spy agency, would be trying to spy on OUR government. that's how the world works)

    • I'm sort of conflicted. First off they're supposed to be friendly countries. Second, do you want other countries spying on you? And what's to stop other countries to resell that information back to the US or other interests? Third, wasn't the US trying to establish how hacking into the US is an act of war? Now it turns they've been doing it to everyone else?

      Lastly you're undermining the internet in general. Less trust in an open network will turn people into making fragmented segments for their own count

    • Thing is, spying is not seen as a friendly act, and when you're outed, there are going to be consequences.

      In other words, you can do it, but only as long as you don't get caught. That's why you keep it small and quiet, not this kind of major NSA dragnet.

  • by ducomputergeek (595742) on Monday October 28, 2013 @12:28PM (#45259625)

    ...who spends 25% of their published budget blatantly on industrial espionage on guess who...the UK, US, Canada, China, Germany, and others...

    The international espionage is pretty much *yawn*. Anyone who has ever followed international politics on any level knows everybody does it to each other. And all the players certainly know it.

    Where the outrage, what little there has been frankly, is the fact that those capabilities were turned inward domestically that has some people ticked off. Again many of us highly suspected this was going on, but we lacked proof. It doesn't surprise me when it comes to things like parallel construction and massive dragnets. Yes it should be illegal, but even if it is, there are ways around it such as giving our cousins over at GCHQ the access, let them do the spying on americans and pass it back in the name of "cooperation".

    What saddens me is that the only thing that can stop this insanity are the people of the United States. And most don't seem to care. As long as there is Football on the weekends to keep the masses entertained...

    I said after 9/11 there were some things we needed to look at like adding armored cockpit doors to airplanes, reassessing and even so far as banning sharped objects on carryon. We needed some sort of centralized intelligence operations. It was clear there was too much politicking for budgets instead of working together. US Intelligence had all the pieces, but spread across too many agencies that wouldn't work together. That needed to be addressed by eliminating and folding agencies. Instead we got DHS. It was sold as just that kind of agency. Instead we've ended up with what is increasingly turning into a domestic para-military agency. I know, they don't have M1 Abrams yet, but they do have their own helicopter gun ships and APC's. TSA has gone from airport rentacops to VIPR teams...

    I remember a couple years ago they were doing drills with the US Army & MO National Guard patrolling the streets of North St. Louis as though it was a war zone (Which maybe arguably it is) in an "Urban Pacification Drill". When the news interviewed locals they welcomed the show of force. The benefit of a doubt part of me knew this was the National Guard showing off some new toys it had gotten. But there is a part of me that also raised an eyebrow.

    If you look at the past 10 - 12 years there's been a chess game afoot here in the US. The governments been setting the board. They've got small scale operations down. Look at how quickly they locked down Boston earlier in the year. Look at how quickly the people followed the orders to cower indoors because of 2 kids.

    We aren't quite there yet, but unless something drastic changes and soon, we're one major "event" away from waking up and no longer in the land of free.

    • by Gordo_1 (256312)

      > Look at how quickly the people followed the orders to cower indoors because of 2 kids.

      Really? The "2 kids" in question bombed a public event with improvised explosives, then killed a police officer, hijacked a car and the last one took refuge by hiding in a boat in a local neighborhood. How would the authorities have responded in your magical utopian 'free' country?

      • > Look at how quickly the people followed the orders to cower indoors because of 2 kids.

        Really? The "2 kids" in question bombed a public event with improvised explosives, then killed a police officer, hijacked a car and the last one took refuge by hiding in a boat in a local neighborhood. How would the authorities have responded in your magical utopian 'free' country?

        Question: did all that lockdown crap actually have a net positive effect, or did it take some random person stepping into his backyard (which he couldn't do during the martial-law-practice-run) to catch the bomber?

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