Telegraph Contributor Says Coding Is For Exceptionally Dull Weirdos 453
mikejuk writes "The UK Government is trying to figure out how to teach children to code by changing what is taught in schools. The Telegraph, a leading UK newspaper, has put the other side of the case: Coding is for 'exceptionally dull weirdo(s).' The recent blog post by Willard Foxton is an amazing insight into the world of the non-programming mind. He goes on to say: 'Coding is a niche, mechanical skill, a bit like plumbing or car repair.' So coding is a mechanical skill — I guess he must be thinking of copy typing. 'As a subject, it only appeals to a limited set of people — the aforementioned dull weirdos. There's a reason most startup co-founders are "the charming ideas guy" paired with "the tech genius". It's because if you leave the tech genius on his own he'll start muttering to himself.' Why is it I feel a bout of muttering coming on? 'If a school subject is to be taught to everyone, it needs to have a vital application in everyday life — and that's just not true of coding.' Of course it all depends on what you mean by 'vital application.' The article is reactionary and designed to get people annoyed and posting comments — just over 600 at the moment — but what is worrying is that the viewpoint will ring true with anyone dumb enough not to be able to see the bigger picture. The same attitude extends to all STEM subjects. The next step in the argument is — why teach physics, chemistry, biology, and math (as distinct from arithmetic) to anyone but exceptionally dumb weirdos."
Don't feed the trolls (Score:5, Insightful)
C'mon slashdot, aren't you better than this?
The same for you (Score:5, Insightful)
I imagine writing news editorials all day is only for exceptionally dull weirdo's as well. At least when my work is done there is something useful to come out of it.
Dull Weirdo Here (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:brace yourself (Score:5, Insightful)
brace yourself for 1000+ angry comments
No doubt.
Thing is, everybody does not need to be taught coding, but they really should be at least shown how to use a computer. In the same manner that everybody does not need a mandatory engine building class, though driver's education would be nice along with the basics on how to maintain an automobile. Even that is not mandatory in these parts.
I know how to... (Score:5, Insightful)
Change gthe oil in my car, add radiator fluid, fix a tire. I also know how to unclog a drain.
So if coding is so routine, then everyone should know how to do.
PS: A lot of effort has been made to allow the masses to code. COBOL, VB/VBA come to mind. If it is so mechanical why the effort?
Troll feeding time, I guess. (Score:5, Insightful)
The article is reactionary and designed to get people annoyed and posting comments
So it's flamebait and clickbait? So why post it here? There are plenty of dolts like him and we don't have to respond to them all. Don't feed the troll.
--
BMO
And OP-ED journalism (Score:4, Insightful)
...should be left to self-absorbed narcissists?
In any case, RTFA, I think I'd need to see the policy he is critizing to judge it, but it does sound a bit ambitious especially for the age group he claims it's for.
Nonetheless, he's a ignorant ingrate.
Applies to any field (Score:5, Insightful)
I do agree with one point (Score:4, Insightful)
Great flame bait (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Dull Weirdo Here (Score:3, Insightful)
I would venture to say newspapers like the Telegraph are for exceptionally dull weirdos. Everyone else uses twitter & the web.
A dull weirdo is someone who sees science, math and computing and isn't in awe of it, hungry to know more. I pity anyone who lives their life without any curiosity about the world around them. It makes the world a very small place when all you care about is writing crap articles in a blog and how many scheckles you've accumulated.
Re:I do agree with one point (Score:5, Insightful)
"Better to focus on math, which is the hard part of programming."
There you have an argument. I'm not saying a good one, but an argument: let's use programming as a way to reach to math.
On the other hand, coding is a way of expression. Arguably, coding makes you more expressive, in ways neither natural language nor maths can allow being kindof a middle ground between them.
Can't do without excellent coders (Score:5, Insightful)
Interestingly he mentions:
There's a reason most startup co-founders are "the charming ideas guy" paired with "the tech genius".
Of course, there is a reason for that. And it's not that programmers are dull weirdo's. That one statement totally undermines anything negative he has to say about coders. The guy with charming ideas is nothing without a genius coder to implement them. And the coder indeed needs the ideas guy to suggest what he's going to code, and how it's going to look like. One can't do without the other, and so it goes in so many fields of work.
Of course there is no need to make just everyone a skilled coder. I'd like to see schools teach at least the basics of coding, so kids know the existence of the field and what it's used for, but no need for more than that, unless the kid wants it.
And for being "dull weirdo's"? Well one thing what makes a good coder is the ability to concentrate deeply and focus on single subjects for a prolonged period of time. And that's exactly the quality that makes those people "dull" (thinking of just a single subject) and "weirdo" (being able to close one off from the outside world) in the eyes of people that do not have that specific quality.
Re:I know how to... (Score:5, Insightful)
So if coding is so routine, then everyone should know how to do.
I love how this asshole is saying code has no practical value, and yet the only reason said asshole has a job is because someone coded the OS, web server, browser, the routers and switches, and the website itself that he's posting from to claim this.
The thing about society is that every job is important. We need janitors as much as we need CEOs. We need specialist labor as much as general. I mean, we entered a new age in human history -- the Information Age, because most of us are now specialists of one kind or another. This dinosaur is still living in the Industrial Age where you only needed a few schmoot people, and the rest you could (sometimes literally) just feed into the machines.
Understanding (Score:5, Insightful)
After a while they start to think that the various bad interface designs are a conspiracy against them; this is only compounded when a technical type reaches over and helps them with a flick of a single switch, and when asked why couldn't it have been designed better it becomes obvious that the technical person is hunting for a way to not say, "They assumed that you had at least a double digit IQ." and then it becomes hatred.
Another source of frustration is the implied knowledge that the world could get by with far far fewer artists but not with far fewer engineers. It might be a less colourful world but the engines of civilization need engineers.
Re:brace yourself (Score:3, Insightful)
You can not stop the ignorant from promoting ignorance.
Initiate Flame Thrower (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:brace yourself (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:brace yourself (Score:5, Insightful)
Not really angry. More disappointed.
This, ladies and gentlemen, is why we don't get any kind of respect in management. Because that's what they see in us: The computerized equivalent of plumbers and bricklayers. The fact that they couldn't wrap their feeble minds around a tenth of what we have to understand intimately doesn't matter. What matters is that we're notoriously bad at marketing. Self-marketing, too.
I guess I'm not the only one who is amazed again and again how simple, trivial concepts can be impossible to grasp for allegedly intelligent people. And of course I consider what I can do fairly trivial because, well, let's be honest, it is. Still, there is an amazingly small subset of the human species that can even begin to understand what I'm actually doing. My move to management was quite an eye opener, and it showed me just HOW much people at the C-Level don't really understand about their company.
But they're good at self marketing. They're great at selling their ability that parallels the feat of being able to eat your lunch without spilling half of it on your tie as the biggest achievement in human history. Because, well, in a nutshell, "management skills" are trivial, at best. I was at first very intimidated by the idea that I should now "manage". Turns out it's not that much different from what you have to do anyway while you actually should be programming, just leave out doing some sensible work and you got it.
And that's simply what it boils down to: Techs are really bad at self marketing. We still mostly rely on getting the job done and getting it done well and hoping that people will notice. Bullshit, people don't care. People only listen to the loudmouth who keeps tooting his own horn.
Re:I do agree with one point (Score:5, Insightful)
"Better to focus on math, which is the hard part of programming."
How about focusing on logic? That's the real key to programming. Well, that and reading instruction manuals.
Re:brace yourself (Score:2, Insightful)
This, ladies and gentlemen, is why we don't get any kind of respect in management. Because that's what they see in us: The computerized equivalent of plumbers and bricklayers. The fact that they couldn't wrap their feeble minds around a tenth of what we have to understand intimately doesn't matter.
And conversely, they have no clue what obstacles we face or why we claim our jobs are difficult. "So, yeah, can you also have it map each email address to the sender's DNA and use the link to record their conversations at home and send them to me sorted by topic? I'll need that by Thursday, or if you can get to it earlier that would be even better. I realize this was just intended to generate order confirmation emails, but it could be so much more if you'd only be willing to put some thought into it!"
Actually, his job is at risk. (Score:4, Insightful)
... the only reason said asshole has a job is because someone coded the [infrastructure] that he's posting from to claim this.
Actually, the Telegraph is an old line newspaper.
Granted it's one of the few that has established a strong Web presence. But, like other old-line papers, it's having serious business model problems, as the readership abandons mainstream "news is really infotainment-like art product" operations for actual reporting of information on the Internet.
So those coders have created the juggernaut that is crashing his opportunities for employment.
I read his posting as sour grapes, taking a swipe at the people he sees as a threat.
Re:brace yourself (Score:5, Insightful)
I would settle for people learning some more respect for the blue collar jobs amongst us. I suspect the countries with a higher proportion of "dull weirdos" in relation to "idea guys" will be the more prosperous ones in the future. As the old saying goes, genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration. Idea guys are great, but they're like the 1% inspiration. Too many of them around, and you have the "too many chiefs, not enough indians" problem rather quickly.
Life skills are never a waste. (Score:4, Insightful)
This again? (Score:4, Insightful)
That sort of idiocy is why they only taught the girls how to type when I went to school.
Re:brace yourself (Score:4, Insightful)
Not really angry. More disappointed.
This, ladies and gentlemen, is why we don't get any kind of respect in engineering. Because that's what they see in us: glorified self marketers. The fact that they couldn't wrap their feeble minds around a tenth of what we have to understand intimately doesn't matter. What matters is that we're notoriously bad at coding. Self-marketing, too.
I guess I'm not the only one who is amazed again and again how simple, trivial concepts can be impossible to grasp for allegedly intelligent people. And of course I consider what I can do fairly trivial because, well, let's be honest, it is. Still, there is an amazingly small subset of the human species that can even begin to understand what I'm actually doing. My move to engineering was quite an eye opener, and it showed me just HOW much people in development don't really understand about their company.
But they're good at coding. They're great at selling their ability that parallels the feat of being able to write out a couple lines of gibberish as the biggest achievement in human history. Because, well, in a nutshell, "computer programming skills" are trivial, at best. I was at first very intimidated by the idea that I should now "program". Turns out it's not that much different from what you have to do anyway while you actually should be doing the normal day-to-day work, just leave out communicating that work to others and you got it.
And that's simply what it boils down to: management is really bad at writing code. We still mostly rely on getting the job done and getting it done well and hoping that people will notice. Bullshit, people don't care. People only listen to the loudmouth who keeps tooting his own horn.
If you don't make any effort to appreciate how difficult and important skillful management is, how can you expect understanding from the other side of the aisle? Just because someone is over a team or has the word "manager" in their title doesn't mean they know what they are doing any more than a half of the coders out there -- be honest, at least half the code you read is garbage. It doesn't mean that coding is a trivial skill any more than management is a trivial skill. If anything, it proves the opposite.
Re:brace yourself (Score:2, Insightful)
no. THIS is why you don't get any respect from management. Because you're a pretentious douche who thinks you're better than anyone else. You think you have a god-given gift, and that the company works solely because of your "coding skills". You think you're better and more important to the company that Betty at accounting. That stupid bimbo that keeps breaking her printer (except betty is a CPA and she went to college and has a degree. She doesn't know how to fix her printer but she's much smarter than you when it comes to taxes, and she can do it a million times faster than you. And better. And she pays less taxes than you, because she's better than you at that). You also think you're better than your retard boss, that idiot, who the fuck does he think he is? He's a "boss" just because he's got an MBA, pfft... joke degrees (except your boss worked his ass of from nothing and now he owns a company. Because he knows a thing or two. And also, he drives a BMW and you drive a used toyota. Gee, if you're so much better than him, how come you don't have your own company?)
And yes, you of course think you're better than a simple bricklayer (except you are a little wuss that wouldn't stand 1 hour of brick laying work. And you'd do it completely wrong). And plumbers? Pfft... you can google how to fix that leaky faucet. How hard can that be? I mean an idiot plumber with his asscrack showing can do it, why can't you? You're a million times smarter than him (except he can design and install all of a house's water system, with no problems, no leaks, and do it in a day, while you will still be googling what kind of pipe is better).
You are not special. You're a part of a company just like that stupid bimbo, just like the idiot boss, and just like the dumb janitor. Except: CPAs, Bosses and janitors have been in companies forever. And companies have worked without computers for centuries.
You know how you get respect from management? By doing your work right. By questioning them, and by not being a smug asshole when you do that. When asking for requirements, work with them, ask exactly what they need. Lead them to where you think their solution should be and see. Then make a small project, talk it over with management again, and only after they've approved that, code it. Ah yes... all of that is boring! It's stupid! You want to code! Release early, release often! WELL NO. Management doesn't appreciate half-baked solutions. They expect things to be working. They don't want a mockup or half the implementation. They want it to work when you present it to them. They are not technical. They don't want to be technical. They couldn't care less about how it works inside. They want it to WORK.
When you get all of that over your head, you'll understand a lot of things. The most important being: you're not as special as you think you are.
(You means "the reader". Not OP. But yeah, also OP in particular)
Re:brace yourself (Score:3, Insightful)
We are geeks. There's something wrong in our minds that makes us happy spending time typing on a keyboard rather than chasing women.
What a ridiculous negative stereotype. Just because you spent your teens and early 20's behind a keyboard doesn't mean that the rest of us were socially awkward introverted weirdos.
I found plenty of time for girls. I suspect many other "geeks" did as well. It was not an either-or scenario.
What you really want to say is "I had a crummy adolescence, but it's only because I was super-smart!" Which is ... very sad.
Stop spreading that ridiculous myth! Back to your parents basement with you!
Re:Can't do without excellent coders (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, but in the end, the face man (let's call him "Jobs") is going to be a billionaire, whereas the coder ("Woz", if you will) is going to go a few years making $80K at the company he co-founded, and then get fired by Jobs to make way for dozens of other younger, cheaper Wozzes.
It is fortunate then that the Wozzes of the world are not so easily discouraged. Jobs' legacy is that he became rich at the expense of so many others, lived a life of vanity and turtleneck sweaters, and then bargained with the devil to gain a few more years of that life when sickness came for him, arranging secret operations that skirted the law. He was hated by all who worked for him, and his empire is already starting to crumble, and he hasn't been in the ground pushing daisies for all that long either.
But Woz... He helped to kick off the start of the information age. That's something he can tell his children, and his children's children. It is something that those who care about history will remember. But even if they don't, even if history forgets the name Steve Wozniac, he contributed something that genuinely was for the betterment of all mankind.
And that's why the Wozzes of the world get up every day, brush their teeth, comb their hair back, put on their work shoes, and drive the long road into work; They don't care about recognition, they care about contribution. So it has been with all the truly great people down through history. And that is why what Jobs built is already crumbling -- it was just a effigy to his own greatness -- while what Woz built, the personal computer, has lifted over a billion people into the information age already and dramatically altered the course of human history. Apple will eventually die; but the personal computer -- I think that will live on for a very, very long time.
Re:brace yourself (Score:2, Insightful)
People who had a crummy adolescence for the reasons you're stating aren't really that smart. If they were, they would have had a much better adolescence.
Just because someone can use a PC doesn't make them smart, if you can't deal with people, they're probably not nearly as smart as they think they are.
Re:Can't do without excellent coders (Score:2, Insightful)
"the charming ideas guy" is a derogatory term in my book. It represents the hopeless idiot that have his idea of the new facebook/WoW/sliced bread and looks for someone to work for free to help him make it.
The cooperation will last approximately a week because the idea guys doesn't have a clue about any technical detail or the process required to fulfil a fraction of his ideas.
And there's like a billion of these morons.
What drives tech progress is competence and ideas.
Re:brace yourself (Score:5, Insightful)
I've got a pretty good idea of what I'm doing and programming computers well does require a lot of skill that's borderline autistic in the real world. I'm sure your teachers too did some kind of "How dumb can a computer be?" exercise where you tried instructing the teacher to put jam on a piece of bread and he tried acting as dumb as possible making you Lay. Out. Each. Step. Exactly. Computers are like that and we accept that, you've got nobody to blame but yourself because it did exactly what you told it to. But the rest of the world isn't like that, if coworkers or a dog or a three year old showed the same utter inability to work out the details we'd start wondering if there was something wrong with their intelligence, not ours. If the recipe says a cup of sugar, you don't throw the cup itself in the mix.
The same goes for the ability to anticipate every possible unexpected and improbable circumstance that might occur, normal people might think ahead on what they'd do in a few common or anticipated situations but a computer expects you to Lay. Out. Every. Exception. Exactly. In real life for one you'd never get out get door but even if you did it'd be in full survival gear in case you fell into a sinkhole and you'd still fail because the road was blocked and you didn't plan any alternative routes. For most people most of the time they'll simply cross that bridge when they get to it, there's no need to go all OCD and plan out everything in excruciating detail ahead of time. Yet that's what we have to do because the computer is utterly unable to deal with any situation on its own without instructions.
Finally normal people don't manage resources like programmers do, if they're cooking dinner they collect the pots and pans and other utensils they need from where ever they were put last and clean them if necessary. Even with managed languages where you don't have to free the memory used, you still need to destroy the objects you create, close the connections you opened, release the locks you've gotten and Manage. Every. Resource. Exactly. Everything must be kept track on in detail and put back in exactly the same place in exactly the same state as you found it. If you had a kitchen managed like a computer I'd say you were suffering from massive OCD, not just having it tidy and keeping things in the usual places. A cooking process doesn't die because one thing is out of place, a computer process does.
Of course you could say that's two different settings that you turn on when you get to work and turn off when you go home, but we're not machines and we can stop caring and be a slob at home but it still changes how we think. A lot of it is simply mental training, because you need to plan out so far ahead in such detail it naturally translates to every other situation you come across in life too. Personally I'd like the ability to live a bit more in the moment, to lose that "big picture" and just live in the here and now and not care so much about tomorrow. There is such a thing as overthinking it and it tends to be a bit of a party pooper, have fun today and worry about the hangover tomorrow. Too much rationality is dull.
Re:brace yourself (Score:3, Insightful)
Question: Why do we try to make software development a widely available skill? Clearly many people don't want to learn it, and forcing them to learn it anyway just creates negative associations. Later on, these people who don't want to program will still be available to do the job, badly, reducing the quality of software for everybody and lowering the pay for those who want to program and can actually do a good job of it.
I can see the benefit of being able to analyze and structure problems in most non-programming situations, but there are other strategies too and some people simply prefer paying someone else, trial-and-error, hammering away at problems in futility or living with the unsolved problem. To quote Dr. Lexus: "There are plenty 'tards out there living really kick-ass lives." And they like it that way. They think we're the dull ones.
Re:brace yourself (Score:4, Insightful)
Not a myth. I see very smart kids get bullied pretty regularly simply becasue they are interested in things above the heads of most the people in their class.