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New Leaks Threaten Human Smuggling Talks and Lead To Hack Attacks On Australia 304

Posted by Soulskill
from the because-why-continue-a-good-thing dept.
cold fjord writes "Indonesia is threatening to cease cooperation with Australia on human smuggling as a result of further Snowden leaks published by the Guardian and other papers over the weekend. The leaks involve reported use of Australian embassies across Asia for signals intelligence as well as reports of intelligence operations by Australia and the U.S. in 2007 at the U.N. climate change conference in Bali. (In 2002 a terrorist attack at the Sari club in Bali killed 240 people, including 88 Australians.) As a result of the revelations, various groups are reportedly taking revenge, including claimed or alleged involvement of the Java Cyber Army, members of Anonymous in Indonesia, and possibly other hacker groups. They are attacking hundreds of Australian websites. Among the reported victims are Queensland hospital, a children's cancer association an anti-slavery charity, and many more."
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New Leaks Threaten Human Smuggling Talks and Lead To Hack Attacks On Australia

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  • Not the leaks (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Hatta (162192) on Tuesday November 05, 2013 @06:12PM (#45340241) Journal

    It's not the leaks that threaten these talks. It's the espionage that threatens the talks.

    • Re:Not the leaks (Score:5, Insightful)

      by intermodal (534361) on Tuesday November 05, 2013 @06:16PM (#45340287) Homepage Journal

      It's the clear strategy of the governments involved to blame the leaks for causing the problems. Failure to give the government a pass on the grounds that it "should have remained secret" makes you a terrorist.

      • by Desler (1608317)

        And they have plenty of mouthpieces and jingoists to spread such misinformation and propaganda. People like cold fjord are the real traitors of the people not Snowden.

    • It's not the espionage that threatens these talks. It's the people attacking the talks.

      Next!

    • Re:Not the leaks (Score:5, Insightful)

      by CanHasDIY (1672858) on Tuesday November 05, 2013 @06:19PM (#45340329) Homepage Journal

      It's not the leaks that threaten these talks. It's the espionage that threatens the talks.

      No shit; I mean, what kind of jingoist, fascist asshole blames the guy who risked his ass to bring the evil deeds of clandestine criminal groups into the sunlight?

      *looks at submitter name in summary*

      Ah, that kind.

    • by s.petry (762400)

      It's not the leaks that threaten these talks. It's the espionage that threatens the talks.

      I think the more shocking aspect is how much collusion there is with the espionage, not the espionage itself. It's as if there is no separation between the US, UK, Australia, Italy, and Germany intelligence agencies.

      People have been telling about a group trying to create a new world government right under your noses. Not just those "wacky" people like Alex Jones and Gary Allen, but Presidents Kennedy and Eisenhower said the same thing. If you look at the collusion here suddenly all those "wacko conspirac

      • the more shocking aspect is how much collusion there is with the espionage, not the espionage itself. It's as if there is no separation between the US, UK, Australia, Italy, and Germany intelligence agencies.

        WWII, Cold War, NATO, ANZUS, etc. ECHELON [wikipedia.org] was built in the early 60's, and public knowledge by the late 80's.

        People have been telling about a group trying to create a new world government right under your noses ... Presidents Kennedy and Eisenhower said the same thing.

        Cite or quotation?

        • Re:Not the leaks (Score:5, Informative)

          by Wookact (2804191) on Tuesday November 05, 2013 @07:27PM (#45340887)
          Speech by Eisenhower warning of Military industrial complex: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY [youtube.com] Kennedy warns of shadow/world government: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utYcFf93Srs [youtube.com]
          • Ike was talking about the American defense industry and how congress fed it. JFK was talking about worldwide communism. Arguably the latter was intended to be a "a new world government", but given that we won the Cold War two decades ago, I doubt that's what the GGP was talking about.

            • by s.petry (762400)

              The Presidential speeches reference many topics and a main topic. To claim that they don't contain what is written and stated because it's not of the topic you believe to be the main topic is illogical and irrational.

              Further, to claim these guys didn't know what they were writing or saying is also illogical and irrational. These guys spend a lot of time writing and practicing speeches, they have professionals that help them write them, and there is tremendous study of every statement through Philosophical

      • by dbIII (701233)

        suddenly all those "wacko conspiracy people" are not so wacko

        Keep telling yourself that 9/11 "truther" if it makes you feel better. How many people would have had to be murdered to cover up your fake crash into the pentagon again? What about that building you keep saying should never have burned so the "guvvamint done it". You are still just a wacko pretending to be important by attaching the title HR gave you to your posts.
        Another thing, Kennedy lied about the missile gap - truly a massive lie - maybe t

    • It's not the leaks that threaten these talks. It's the espionage that threatens the talks.

      The "threat" is that these talks will be delayed by a month, while the diplomats put on their "we're so outraged" show, and a few script kiddies hit Australia. These revelations are about as surprising as finding out that the sun rises in the east. It's become comical. Brazil express outrage, oops, Brazil is doing it too (and it's hardly limited to Brazil). The diplomatic protests are just kabuki.

      What outrages me is the domestic spying, including loopholes like comm between two US parties being routed outs

      • Re:Not the leaks (Score:5, Informative)

        by cffrost (885375) on Tuesday November 05, 2013 @08:49PM (#45341447) Homepage

        I'm curious why Snowden is doing this now. The domestic revelations were very important, and I thank him for them. These foreign revelations are another story. I doubt they do any harm, or at least no more than finding out that the sun rises in the east. But why? Does he think these are a big deal? Does he just want revenge? Or (one to be hoped for) he just wants to keep making noise about the NSA until something is done about the domestic situation. Inquiring minds want to know.

        I think it's worth remembering that ever since (or prior to) Russia granted Snowden's request for asylum, the press has been in control of the manner in which Snowden's material is published. No new leaks (by Snowden) was a condition of Russia's for granting his request for asylum.

    • It's not the leaks that threaten these talks. It's the espionage that threatens the talks.

      Actually NEITHER threaten the talks. Indonesia should be interested in their citizens not being enslaved even if the person offering to help them spied of them.

      It's like refusing the fire fighter's help while your house is on fire because you don't like the current mayor. You're mostly just spiting yourself.

      As to indignation. They can give us a break. Every country spies on pretty much every other country. If Indonesia's intelligence agency isn't spying on Australia... it's not for lack of effort I'm

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      As far as I can tell, no religious supremicist organisations in Australia had publicly threatened to kill visiting Indonesians. If they did, Australia's government would "spy" on them for the Indonesians. Indonesia's Islamo-fascist citizens threaten to kill Australians and Australia wants to know if their threats are going to be followed through. Also they want to know If they are sponsored by elements of the Indonesian government. The espionage is justified.

      Because every general and his aide in Indone

    • It's not the leaks that threaten these talks. It's the espionage that threatens the talks.

      So if you told a drug-kingpin that one of his dealers was talking to the cops, you'd have nothing to do with the dealer's murder (and the subsequent end of the police investigation)?

      Legally speaking you'd probably be fine. For the murder. There might be conspiracy charges, or obstruction charges, tho.

      The thing I hate about groups like Wikileaks isn't what they do in principle. It's that, in practice, they almost never discriminate between reasonable secrecy and unreasonable secrecy. In this case the US isn'

    • by quenda (644621)

      It's not the leaks that threaten these talks. It's the espionage that threatens the talks.

      Yes, it really is the leaks. The Indonesian security services and government would have known of this all along. Australia and Indonesia have never had the coziest relationship. We've been shooting at each other in Borneo, new Guinea and Timor, which neither side wanted to publicise.

      But with the leaks, the Indonesians have to be "shocked, shocked I tell you" for internal political reasons.

      And they would have to start cooperating with Australia before they could stop.

  • Headline fail. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by girlintraining (1395911) on Tuesday November 05, 2013 @06:19PM (#45340321)

    "Indonesia is threatening to cease cooperation with Australia on human smuggling as a result of further Snowden leaks

    ... Soo, Indonesia was previously helping Australia with their human smuggling operation? In either event, what does having your corrupt officials mismanaging things have to do with ceasing humanitarian endeavors? This is like saying "After we got busted doing evil things, we're going to just go all in on that whole evil thing, while insisting that you spying on us doing our evil things is wrong and you should stop."

    • Re:Headline fail. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by sd4f (1891894) on Tuesday November 05, 2013 @06:33PM (#45340479)
      That's basically why Indonesia isn't liking what's happening. The people smuggling trade brings a lot of money into Indonesia; buying boats, bribing police and officials. Cutting it off is going to annoy quite a lot of people.
      • The people smuggling trade brings a lot of money into Indonesia; buying boats, bribing police and officials. Cutting it off is going to annoy quite a lot of people.

        So the NSA has been sitting on intelligence reports that people are being sold into slavery... and of course dutifully passed this on to the appropriate government agencies who... proceeded to do nothing. And yet the story here is "teh nsa iz evilz!"

        • by _merlin (160982)

          There's no slavery involved. In this case "people smuggling" refers to offering passage by sea from Indonesia to Australia to desperate asylum seekers. No-one wants these people. Indonesia doesn't want them adding to the population, and Australia demonises them because it makes good politics to play up to xenophobia. The spying probably has nothing to do with the people smuggling at all, it's just being another excuse not to play ball with the new Australian prime minster Tony Abbott, who has already be

        • Re:Headline fail. (Score:5, Interesting)

          by sd4f (1891894) on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @02:41AM (#45342943)

          It's not slavery, it's basically illegal migration by claiming to be a refugee. Rather than engage in the orderly process of getting a visa by getting approval of refugee status from the UN, they decide to go to Indonesia, pay a "people smuggler" who will organise things to get them into Australian waters, then ring some government department to send the navy to go pick them up because their little dingy is probably going to sink soon. Before getting picked up, they discard all their identification papers. Once being processed, they claim they're refugees, escaping persecution, ignoring the fact that they would have passed through four or five different countries who aren't persecuting them.

          If they were neighbouring countries, it would be a different matter, but because they're travelling to Australia, I don't think a lot of them are genuine refugees, after all, they're not being persecuted in Indonesia. It's quite a terrible joke what the people smugglers do. If you look on a map to see where 'Christmas Island" is, in relation to Indonesia, you will see why they do it; because it's not ridiculously far from Indonesia and once in Australian waters, our government is compelled to do something. Unlike the US-Mexican border, where many people try to get into the USA and evade detection, in our case, there is absolutely no compulsion to avoid detection, they actually want to be picked up and processed, that way they can get legal entitlements (read: welfare).

          Australia is a well-to-do country, and, while some of the immigrants will be escaping some form of persecution worthy of resettlement, a lot of them are economic migrants who are arriving by boat to avoid having to go through the proper, overly bureaucratic procedures. This is unfair to the people who haven't got the money to pay a smuggler. Apparently it's in the vicinity of ~$AU10,000 that people smugglers charge. It's not an insignificant sum of money.

          With that brief background, my opinion is that the bribing, and general expenses around people smuggling, means that a lot of that cost is parked in the Indonesian economy. A few thousand Australian dollars is a huge amount in Indonesia, considering their largest currency denomination is worth about $AU10. I just get the feeling that the diplomatic problem is that they know it's happening, they know it's wrong, but they're on the beneficiary side to it, so they don't want it to change.

          The NSA has very little to do with this. It's a broader issue with two countries playing politics and politicians trying to win elections. There's that underlying sentiment of the public, and politicians will generally play to nationalistic tendencies, to appear strong. It happened here, and the Indonesians, with an impending election, are doing same.

          • I too, have a suspicion that many of the asylum seekers are simply economic migrants. However I'm sure you've heard the counter-arguments;

            - The neighbouring countries they pass through are not signatories to the UN convention on refugees
            - They are certainly poorly treated (often gaoled) in Indonesia
            - Extended families often pool their money to come up with the $10k to send one member
            - 90% of asylum seekers (who arrive by boat) are found to be legitimate refugees by Australia
            - The chances of being resett

  • "Java Cyber Army"? Really? Shouldn't they use the best tools for the job and not restrict themselves to just Java? I mean, Java's cool and all, what with write-once-run-anywhere and the nifty Spring Framework, but-

    -Wait, you mean the other Java, don't you.

    Yeah, ok, that makes more sense. :)
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 05, 2013 @06:34PM (#45340485)

    From TFA:

    When he was questioned about what action Indonesia would take against Australia, the foreign minister [Dr. Marty Natalegawa] said: “One of them obviously is the agreement to exchange information, exchange even intelligence information, in fact, to address the issue of people smuggling."

    Basically, Indonesia is leveraging the disclosures to force Australia to agree to exchange intelligence information to address the problem of human trafficking. Nowhere in the TFA says that Indonesia is going to cancel the talks with Australia over this. Australia broke the trust, its up to them to fix it.

  • by Neo-Rio-101 (700494) on Tuesday November 05, 2013 @06:43PM (#45340569)
    The Java cyber army promised to smash the Australian internet. I doubt they would have to try too hard. It's already pretty terrible!
  • Here in the US, we've been watching our constitutional freedoms infringed increasingly. I don't like to say "eroded" or "removed" because the constitution doesn't guarantee our freedoms so much as it prohibits the government from infringing on them. So let's always keep in mind what the constitution was written to do. Our freedoms are declared and government is limited. They are breaking the constitution. That's the short of it. And at the moment, we're not seeing anything suggesting they are going to

  • Well it’s clear that Indonesia are incapable of actually preventing terrorist attacks in their own country against not only its own citizens but against foreign nationals. Someone needs perform surveillance.

I bet the human brain is a kludge. -- Marvin Minsky

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