US Customs Destroys Virtuoso's Flutes Because They Were "Agricultural Items" 894
McGruber writes "Flute virtuoso Boujemaa Razgui performed on a variety of flutes, each made by himself over years for specific types of ancient and modern performance. Razgui has performed with many U.S. ensembles and is a regular guest with the diverse and enterprising Boston Camerata. Last week, Razgui flew from Morocco to Boston, with stops in Madrid and New York. In New York, he says, a US Customs official opened his luggage and found the 13 flutelike instruments — 11 nays and two kawalas. Razgui says he had made all of the instruments using hard-to-find reeds. 'They said this is an agriculture item,' said Razgui, who was not present when his bag was opened. 'I fly with them in and out all the time and this is the first time there has been a problem. This is my life.' When his baggage arrived in Boston, the instruments were gone. He was instead given a number to call. 'They told me they were destroyed,' he says. 'Nobody talked to me. They said I have to write a letter to the Department of Agriculture in Washington, D.C. This is horrible. I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people.'"
The unexpected hazard... (Score:5, Funny)
I never thought of flutes as an "invasive species."
Re: The unexpected hazard... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: The unexpected hazard... (Score:5, Insightful)
whatever. the flutes were destroyed similar to how the X-ray machine makes iPads evaporate. he should check ebay.
Re:The unexpected hazard... (Score:5, Funny)
I never thought of flutes as an "invasive species."
You never saw the swarming of the Zanfir commercials... I still get shivers to this day.
Re:The unexpected hazard... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:The unexpected hazard... (Score:5, Interesting)
Surely not (Score:5, Funny)
Another whistle blower!
Serves him right! (Score:3, Funny)
He's obviously a denialist and he got off easy.
The wood that he unscrupulously and capitalistically exploited for his burgeious profit contraption could have reduced ALGORE'S carbon footprint if he hadn't murdered it for his own selfish amusement. I'm just disturbed that this 1%er scum wasn't thrown into our enviromental reeducation camps for his crimes against science.
Re:Serves him right! (Score:4, Funny)
Your sig doesnt contain proper scientific notation and it angers me.
Re:Serves him right! (Score:4, Informative)
That's because it's not scientific notation; it's engineering notation and perfectly proper.
Eventually people will look up... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:5, Interesting)
Oddly I was going to say something similar. Right along with tossing in a Gestapo and STASI remark, since both of those governments organizations, did exactly this type of thing.
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:5, Insightful)
Imagine the Gestapo with today's technology. It's coming.
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:5, Insightful)
Imagine the Gestapo with today's technology. It's coming.
Imagine, or turn your head and look?
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:5, Insightful)
This makes people want to never, ever, EVER travel to the US. The NSA has now made it so that no-one wants to do business, much less purchase technological devices (one of our largest exports) ever, EVER again. Our government is destroying our economy, completely and totally, and on multiple fronts. I don't know that even bureaucrats can be this fucking stupid.
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe not on its own people (although there are examples of US citizens being killed by drones without any semblance of due process), but Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistanis and Yemenis are killed by US drones daily without any judicial process. That it doesn't happen on US soil is, as far as I'm concerned, immaterial.
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:5, Informative)
How exactly have you gone ten years without hearing about rendition. The U.S. especially JSOC and SOCOM, have been snatching people all over the world since 9/11 and making them disappear. Many of them have been rendered based on the flimsiest of evidence or have even been totally the wrong people because of mistaken identity. These people have been disappeared in to secret U.S. prisons abroad and to states like Egypt for interrogation and torture where they have no access to the Red Cross, lawyers or family. They actually totally disappear. Try reading Jeremy Scahill's Dirty Wars [amazon.com].
There is also an issue with the U.S. using drones and cruise missiles over large swaths of the globe to conduct summary executions of individuals based on often flawed intelligence, and frequently killing large numbers of women and children in the process. At least three of the executions have been U.S. citizens, including a 16 year old boy.
Just because they are Muslim does that mean they don't count in your book?
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:5, Informative)
There was a well known case of an innocent Canadian who was on a flight connecting through New York City who was seized at the airport and rendered to Syria where he was tortured. He was apparently targetted because he was mentioned as a refernce on an apartment application of someone under suspicion. No one really knows how many other people have been rendered out of the U.S., you only know if they are released at some point and speak out.
There have been well publicized cases in Italy and Germany. A number of CIA agents were tried and convicted in absentia by Italy for kidnapping because they rendered someone off the streets of Italy consulting the Italians.
There was a person rendered from Europe who had the same name as a suspected Islamist, but he was completely innocent and was completely disappeared for months, his family didn't know what happened to him, until the mistake was discovered months later and he was released.
One of the three U.S. citizens executed by drone was Anwar Awliki's son. There is no evidence he ever had anything to do with Al Qaede. He was 16 years old, though at the time he was killed the U.S. claimed he was 21. The U.S. claimed they were targeted someone else from Al Qaeda when they killed him but that person was no where near the drone stoke. The boy was at an outdoor barbecue with cousins when he and all the innocent people around him were killed by a drone strike. They were disappeared in a way, they were turned in to small peices of meat and bone and were buried in a communal grave because they couldn't be identified.
Early in the dirty war in Yeme the U.S. didn't have enough drones so they used cruise missiles from a submarine loaded with cluster bombs to level a village. There may have been one suspected Al Qaeda affiliate in the village, but thats not even certain, nearly everyone killed were innocent bystanders, many women and children.
The dirty wars are certainly killing a lot of Al Qaeda affiliates. They are almost certainly killing a larger number of innocent civilians which will fuel new generations to hate America.
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:4, Informative)
Read all about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/maher_arar [wikipedia.org]
Yes, it's a wikipedia cite, but that article itself has 118 citations for whatever particular aspect you need.
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:5, Insightful)
You seem to miss the point. U.S. indiscriminant killing of civilians is insuring this will be a perpetual war, which I suspect is what a lot of malevolent people in and around Washington D.C. want. This forever war spanning the entire globe gives them a blank check to do just about anything, anywhere, anytime and justify it by saying its necessary to keep American's safe. If the screw up and kill the wrong people they just lie, cover it up, and move on to the next set of executions. They can also spend unlimited quantities of money. After the Soviet Union fell DOD and Intelligence needed a new enemy to justify their enormous budgets. Now that they have one they will milk it forever.
You can't win a guerrilla war by working off an org chart of your enemy commanders and killing large numbers of civilians as collateral damage as you go after them. The French tried exactly this strategy in Algeria for years. They did take out a lot of boxes on their org charts but the brutality that went with it insured there was always a fresh supply of people who hated the French with a passion and constantly replenished the boxes on the org chart.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with targetting Al Qaeda and Taliban but you need to A) make sure the intelligence and targetting are rock solid and B) do everything possible to limit collateral damage. For example you kill them in vehicles on an open road instead of leveling an entire village full of innocent people.
Or you send in special operators to snatch and identify them. Unfortunately after 10 years they've realized that secret prisons are really messy from a human rights perspective so they've decided to use summary executions instead which is why they killed an unarmed Bin Laden at point blank range.
For long periods in Iraq, Afghanistan and Yemen JSOC opted for high mission rate based on bad intelligence over low mission rate and high quality results. They created whole new generations of Jihadi's as a result of that poor decision.
The "hiding behind women and children" is a silly propaganda line. You expect them to stand out in the middle of a field and put a bullseye on their chest so the drones can target them cleanly. They are facing an opponent with vast military superiority. They are going to blend in to villages and hide in mountains. Anything else would be shear stupidity and they aren't stupid.
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:5, Informative)
There is another great story from Scahill's book that shows how flimsy and flawed the intelligence JSOC has been using to execute people is.
An informant apparently figured out he could finger just about anyone and JSOC would sweep in and kill them without even minimaly checking the intelligence. He told JSOC there were Al Qaeda or Taliban at a certain compound. In reality people there were a police commander and his family there. He wactually worked with the U.S. and was having a christening party with music(which should have been the first tip it wasn't Taliban or Al Qaeda since they shun music).
JSOC swept in, shooting first and not asking questions later. The police commander and another man were shot when they stepped out and tried to tell the people with night vision and lasers they were in the wrong place.
Three women then stepped out to try to help the two men and they were shot. About this time JSOC figured out they'd made a mistake. They dug their bullets out of the women with their knives while they were still alive. The official line from NATO for several days was the two dead men had stabbed the women as part of an honor killing and JSOC killed the men to protect the women. This lie quickly unraveled when journalists started investigating. Eventually the JSOC commander, McRaven, had to come to the family beg forgiveness, slaughter a sheep and buy them off with cash.
The basic point here is once you start extrajudicial killings based on often flawed intelligence, and you are accountable to no one, you can literally get away with murdering just about anyone, anywhere and there is next to nothing anyone can do about it. The main failure in this case is they failed to keep journalists away from the victims. They also probably should have used a drone strike since all they leave behind are small peices of meat so its often hard to tell what happened or even who was killed.
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:4, Informative)
There is another great story from Scahill's book that shows how flimsy and flawed the intelligence JSOC has been using to execute people is.
Again, a lengthy story with no references provided. Please back it up somehow. You'd do your cause a favor by not just saying stuff without citations.
Try reading the book mentioned earlier in the thread and cited by him:
http://www.amazon.com/Dirty-Wars-The-World-Battlefield/dp/156858671X [amazon.com]
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, makes perfect sense.
Gestapo: Murder you and everyone you know.
TSA: Threw some flutes in the garbage.
Oh those monsters....
Sure it does.
Gestapo: Detain, search and murder anyone who gets in the way, take artworks and musical instruments, including those considered heretical and destroy them as needed(or send them off to their betters for gain).
TSA: Detain without warrant, search without warrant, take artworks, and musical instruments without remuneration, including those deemed heretical by letter agencies, and dispose of them, or "keep them" as witnessed by the reselling of said items.
And you forgot the STASI, who: Detained without warrant, searched without warrant, operated a vast intelligence agency that spied on everyone, and did several things already mentioned. Sounds almost like some of the letter agencies in the US doesn't it?
The difference between the three, is that the TSA doesn't have the "right to shoot someone" without due process. And I'd put that as a "yet" but you can see the trend in some of the flappy headed politicians, especially after the large scale anti-gun pushes. An armed population is a dangerous population to such ideas after all.
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:5, Insightful)
Beware the people with the uncanny ability to seek out and use those types of people.
They're the dangerous ones.
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yup, and come the revolution they will be first in front of the wall.
What I don't get is the almost PETA rabidness of some who have posted above blaming this person. Do society a favor and see if you can win a Darwin Award with your inherent stupidity.
As an artist in my own right, I have no clue how long it took him to find all these reed's, dry, carve and seal them into musical instruments that could then be used to convey the proper sound for a piece of music composed in the time of Herod or before. What I do know is that they will not do that to me for free. There would be a payback that would make the front page.
This is the same stupidity that has been harassing the Gibson Guitar people for the last decade, but they did know about the import restrictions on Rosewood, and had the permits, but some ass hole didn't get the fucking memo. Repeatedly.
I face much the same thing when I have to fly because I am a television broadcast engineer, who often has to pack up his tools and go someplace to resuscitate a tv station or their transmitter. I can't take my tools, several thousand dollars worth, with me to the job via anyplace that takes me past a TSA checkpoint, so now the stations who need my talents have to send their corporate airplanes to come and get me and bring me home. Or I have to drive, which could be a 5 or 6 day each way trip to some of the places I have been since I retired 11 years ago. That is bull shit, the finest stuff, which if applied to an Iowa cornfield and matched by 30+ inches of rain, will grow 220 bushels to the acre.
So when do we take our country back folks? Seriously, I'd like to see it on my watch, but since I'm on my 80th circuit around this star, there might not be much time left for me to watch.
So sign me "Seething mad at the magnitude of the idiocy, Gene"
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:4, Insightful)
So when do we take our country back folks? Seriously, I'd like to see it on my watch, but since I'm on my 80th circuit around this star, there might not be much time left for me to watch.
What do you expect us to do with our lives that you did not do with yours? It's not like we haven't seen how the Civil Rights movement ran its course, the Privacy Rights movement will probably play out quite similarly. The racists who fought against abolition of slavery raised their children, who would die ~30 years after them and continued the tradition of hate into the 1900's; When those sewn deep with the seeds of hate had died or had a foot in the grave, and the following generation had grown up with the unignorable repression still in place did the Civil Rights movement succeed. You see, it only takes a few bad apples to spoil the bunch.
Now our enemy is not hate, but fear. Fast cars and Fast food kill 400 times more people every year than 9/11, but our government used the event as to manufacture consent for a "War on Terror" instead of a war on the far more dangerous Automobiles, Happy Meals, The Flu, Bathroom Falls, Lightning, etc. Now using the systems built on your watch our governments can fabricate and plant evidence in our homes remotely. They're so scared they even lie to congress to "protect" we the people from even knowing the extent to which their safety net smothers us. They've been proven liars now so no evidence they present can be assumed legitimate, and enemy spies use our data stores as treasure troves, as Snowden demonstrated was far more than feasible -- Yet they will still fear, and demand to protect us. Who do you think taught these scaremongers this fear that they seek such protection? It was your generation got us in the state we're in now. [wikipedia.org] I'm sorry, but the fearful watchers of the world don't get to see things change for the better because they they watched in grateful fear when things were changing for the worse in the name of protection. [wikipedia.org]
When our children grow up and you & your children are your age, that is when we'll be able to make permanent changes about this: When the ones who have lived with the knowledge and unignorable proof of their despotism grow up and take the reigns. It's not like we haven't seen how these parasitic cold-war spying systems kill their hosts, how the body must become resistant to the euphoric power-high and overdose on the despotic poison the fear drug is laced with. When the state of the system itself becomes more fearful than any pathetic threat. After your generation dies, and the scared little tyrants you raised have become as powerless as you.
If you my accusation unfair, then you hypocritically ignore how unfair it is to grow up our children in brave homes with little freedom of privacy; They will end the mess you wrought. Your only hope to see the change is that enough of the more technically and politically inclined folk grew up knowing about the ugly Omnivore and its descendants, and about what the counter intelligence programs did to silence civil rights and anti-war movements. Unfortunately we were shunned, ridiculed, name called and bullied as Nerds and Geeks. Our children on the other hand...
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:4, Interesting)
Nah, I've watched the progressive loss of our freedoms since the 1940's. And I've railed against it since. Dec 7 1941 was an eyeopener for me when I saw my father & grandfather crying after we'd heard the evening news on Grandpa's battery powered radio. They understood what it meant. But we rallied, did without, and whuped their butts in about 5 years and change, then taught them how to do business. 9-11, had it not been the demolition job it was, should have resulted in our ruling the middle east. But the stage was already set when Truman flew in and fired Mac because he wanted to stop the Mao driven Chinese on their side of the river. That, quite likely would have been one we lost fair & square.
But Ike was right, when he warned us, everything we've done since has been designed to entrench the military as a standing, and uncontrollable draw on the treasury.
One thing is glaringly obvious today, and that is that the present tyrannical situation could be a major source of energy just from the likes of Thomas Payne, Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson's spinning in their graves. Its intolerable to me, but my kids grew up with it, as have their kids, and now my great grandchildren. And it makes me sad because of the things I got to do that they will never be able to do until our Constitution and Bill of Rights are restored to be the final law of the land. Like T. Jefferson said, "the tree of liberty needs refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants from time to time, and God help us if we go 20 years without it." The much needed reset, will not be bloodless. Will I live long enough to see it? I'd toss a quarter and call it heads, but some SOB would invent a law that says he can legally catch it and run while its in the air.
Sigh....
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:5, Insightful)
I was going to say it wasn't Fascism. But It is. I was going to say it was just overly complicated rules in-forced by under trained, under paid people who can't understand them while having irreversible consequences. But I realized that pretty much sums up Fascism.
Re:Eventually people will look up... (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you mean "authoritarian police state" or fascism [econlib.org]?
I know, Sex Pistols and The Young Ones, but say it with me: "Authoritarian Police State". To not call it by its proper name is to give it a pass.
You have to admit that you live in an police state before you can do something about it.
Re:Yup, a bunch of sticks tied together in a bundl (Score:5, Funny)
Yup, a bunch of sticks tied together in a bundle
That sounds more like a faggot to me.
Same as lost luggage... (Score:4, Insightful)
He shouldn't have had them in his checked baggage, since it's well known that checked bags often get lost. If something's that important, it should be in your carry-on.
Re: (Score:3)
And how is this relevent to the discussion? So instead of having a pretty note in the suitcase he gets to battle the border in person? And that is an improvement how?
Re:Same as lost luggage... (Score:5, Interesting)
the unfortunate thing (that I have learned to my regret) is that certain things are not allowed in carry-ons and will be confiscated anyway. and you *have* to check them. any useful tools for example. I've nearly had pliers and screwdrivers confiscated, (and that was before 9/11.)
one entertaining example (from 2004) was the day I traveled with a devil stick, (juggling toy,) that looks a bit like a disassembled pool cue. at the checkpoint they asked me if it was a pool cue, I said no and they said okay, but if it were a pool cue they would have had to confiscate it.
now mind you it looked just like a pool cue, weighed about the same as a pool cue, made out of similar wood to a pool cue, but because it wasn't actually a pool cue, they didn't have to confiscate it. if it had been in checked baggage, it wouldn't have been an issue. but it probably would have broken.
due to traveling with some odd juggling toys on a semi regular basis, I have taken to writing long, detailed notes to the TSA, explaining what all my props are and leaving it in the suitcase with the props. I have never failed to get a 'your bag has been searched note' and I haven't lost anything, (yet.) incredible pain in the ass.
on the other hand, I was once driving back into the US from Canada, where I had bought a flute to play. (normal metal type of flute.) and I nearly got penalized and the flute confiscated for not declaring the flute as a 'commercial object'. oddly, they said nothing about the 10 packs of peanuts that it was sitting on when they found it searching my car. I'm beginning to think Customs just has a thing for flutes...
Re:Same as lost luggage... (Score:5, Interesting)
One tactic I've heard of in the US is to buy a part to a gun (something small and convenient like a grip or a trigger or something). Then get a nice big lockable gun case and place it and everything else you care about inside. Declare your "gun" at the counter (gun parts are treated the same as assembled weapons). They will direct you to someplace to have your luggage screened in your presence, and then you lock it up and keep the key (which doesn't have to be TSA-approved). The case will generally not be opened outside of your presence.
You'll still need to pay any fees you'd pay for other checked bags (by weight/size/number/etc), but you'll avoid having your stuff go missing on you. While the TSA doesn't mind your valuables disappearing they don't like the idea of having guns used in crimes traced to them, so gun cases are exempt from the "we can cut/open any lock" policy. The airline probably feels the same way and will probably give the case extra care - even if just to make sure it is secured/etc.
The reason you use a gun part and not a gun is that while parts get the special treatment from the TSA, they're usually exempt from local gun control laws (though obviously you need to check).
None of this will do you any good for international travel though, which is what the original article pertained to. I'm sure there is lots of paperwork around importing/exporting weapon parts from the US, and that is probably nothing compared to what most other countries would impose.
Just one more way... (Score:5, Insightful)
...that going through US customs could ruin your life. DON'T DO IT.
Re:Just one more way... (Score:4, Insightful)
The US is one of few countries that allows border guards to search and seize your electronic devices on a whim, and where extraordinary rendition and torture are legal. It has an extremely minimal set of rights for people passing through borders. It's not just a decent country like any other where terrible mistakes sometimes happen against the rules of the system. According to its laws, in terms of entering and exiting the country it is an unusually bad shithole.
Re:"No, no. No adventures today." (Score:4, Funny)
Visitors not welcome (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Visitors not welcome (Score:4, Insightful)
Many musical instruments are made of wood. So I guess they are all at risk if the owners come to the US.
Not to mention silk, cotton, and wool. Everybody get naked! All of a sudden I feel like going to the airport could be fun again. :)
Re:Visitors not welcome (Score:4, Funny)
Uh... no.
When you think of "naked women", you think photoshopped models. Go to the airport and look around, and this time try hard to not overlook all the women of no interest to you (age, with children, etc.) and also all the fat, bald men.
Now you have a much better mental image of what "everybody get naked" really means. If you're not puking yet, that is.
Re:Visitors not welcome (Score:4, Interesting)
Many musical instruments are made of wood. So I guess they are all at risk if the owners come to the US.
One of these days a customs agent is going to destroy a Stradivarius or other similarly rare instrument. Anyone who has a Stradivarius most likely is famous and/or wealthy, meaning they have (or know people who have) sufficient political connections to make said customs agent's life a living hell long after they leave government employment.
Re:Visitors not welcome (Score:4)
But now some airlines are not allowing that, and even if you buckle up your cello, they won't let it fly with you. It's a tough problem for cello players.
Re:Visitors not welcome (Score:4, Informative)
I would hire a quality instrument from another performer or collector within the US. When you can't be safe with your possesions, the only option is to not have posessions.
Spoken like someone who has never played an expensive instrument. Neither have I, but I know an internationally famous cello player, and I have some idea of the issues involved. You can't just switch to any old instrument and expect your performance to shine. Even many of the supposedly fine instruments are actually crap. And if your playing style is vigorous, as is the style of the individual I am thinking of, if someone loans you some well-aged example of the instrument you might well destroy it by playing it too hard. Or, you'll have to cramp your style for fear of oblitering an instrument which costs as much as does an automobile.
The correct answer is do not visit the United States of America, or other countries which are abusive to musicians, and make a strong public statement explaining why. This may affect income, but then, so will having your livelihood destroyed. Meanwhile, visiting the US when we are doing things like this is simply lending your support to our actions. It's an irresponsible thing to do.
So glad I'm not there (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Each and every day that I read /. I become even more relieved than the day before that fate smiled on me by not making me a citizen of the USA, and not giving me any compelling reason to visit.
My sentiments exactly.
Haven't been to the states since before sept 11th (Score:5, Insightful)
and I never once have regretted that decision. Wouldn't go to dubai either for similar reasons. Toxic culture. I do feel sorry to anyone living there and do hope you are armed.
Re:Haven't been to the states since before sept 11 (Score:5, Insightful)
Funny, last time I went to the states they nearly refused to let me in because of an "Arab" stamp in my passport. Well I did fly Emirates, and I did have a free hotel in Dubai since it was a 9 hour stopover the first time.
By the way I feel safer travelling through Dubai than the USA. The culture may be toxic but at least it is a local and well known culture. Don't want to end up in jail, don't pretend western laws apply in Dubai.
The sad thing is the same comment about western laws these days can be applied to the USA.
Has he checked Ebay? (Score:4, Informative)
TSA agents have been know to do unscrupulous things.
Re: (Score:3)
Very weird story (Score:5, Insightful)
He should definitely be compensated.
Re:Very weird story (Score:4, Insightful)
Razgui says he had made all of the instruments using hard-to-find reeds.
How does one compensate for a dozen of instruments that were hand-made by the player from rare materials? You can't go to the nearest store and rebuy the lost instruments. How long will it even take to make them again? Can the player even do it?
Worse still, will the Customs destroy a Stradivari violin just because old Antonio neglected to attach a US-approved sticker that lists all used woods and where they were finished?
Re:Very weird story (Score:5, Insightful)
Rare materials. Well, rare reeds can be harder to find than gold, so let's put a $1000 raw materials price per ounce of reed used.
Time. Hand craftsmen are incredibly rare. Those skills are expensive. IT can charge $120/hr for skills twice as common. Using that as a guideline, let's say $240/hr for the skills.
If we assume it takes one year to make a flute, then the combined cost is roughly half a million per flute, so $6.5 million so far. I will assume QA would mean some flutes have to be made again from scratch. Let's assume a 50% rejection rate at the virtuoso level, which doesn't seem unreasonable given you're making the best of the best with uncontrolled materials. This raises the price to $9.75 million.
But provinence matters. These instruments had established history, the main reason a Strad is worth ten times anything with identical acoustics. We don't have enough history to bump the price up that much, but doubling sounds fair. This gives us $19.5 million.
I would start by taking the money out of the TSA official's paycheque and bank account, with the remainder seized from TSA funds. If the funds are insufficient, continue to the next department up.
I would further require the TSA to publish a public apology as a full-page announcement in every newspaper, artisan journal and music journal. Finally, I would require all TSA officials involved in any way with the harassment to serve 250 hours community service.
Destroyed... (Score:3)
... or stolen?
Fast food workers with police powers (Score:5, Interesting)
That's what happens when you hire fast food workers into bureaucratic roles and give them absolute power over other people.
Re:Fast food workers with police powers (Score:5, Funny)
That's what happens when you hire fast food workers into bureaucratic roles and give them absolute power over other people.
That is seriously not fair. You are pretty lumping a whole group of hard working, well-meaning people in with a job position that is at the absolute bottom of society. You really should have more respect for fast food workers.
Why I Stay Away (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is that since I moved back to Canada there have been a seemingly endless series of stories like this. Whether it's Mahar Arar being grabbed and shipped to Syria for torture and imprisonment; Jacob Appelbaum being detailed by US customs with no reason and no explanation; innocent people who are having their laptops and phones seized and copied with no warrant or explanation, or who are quite simply harassed at the border on the whim of any customs agent. - it just seems to be happening more and more each year.
Being innocent (whatever that means to Homeland Security) is no protection. All it takes is one renta-cop with a bad attitude.
To my American friends: I am honestly terrified by the thought of crossing your border, and I am not alone.
Re:Why I Stay Away (Score:4, Insightful)
Canada has problems just like this. In fact it's so bad a lot of e-commerce companies won't do business there.
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110321/00490713569/zappos-gives-up-canada-due-to-customs-problems.shtml [techdirt.com]
Tragic, but almost understandable ... (Score:5, Interesting)
An important sentence was left out of the summary, which explained that customs mistook the instruments for pieces of bamboo. Judging from the photo accompanying the article, the confusion is almost understandable. It looks like a home made instrument that may or may not have been prepared properly given restrictions on agricultural products. (Example: they may not have been concerned about the bamboo per se, but rather invasive insects that may be in it since the reeds may not have been treated.)
The moral of the story is to verify that the stuff that you're taking across the border is actually legal for import or export. After all, it could have been much worse for this man. I would imagine that charges could have been pressed if they so desired.
Re:Tragic, but almost understandable ... (Score:5, Informative)
An important sentence was left out of the summary, which explained that customs mistook the instruments for pieces of bamboo. Judging from the photo accompanying the article, the confusion is almost understandable. It looks like a home made instrument that may or may not have been prepared properly given restrictions on agricultural products. (Example: they may not have been concerned about the bamboo per se, but rather invasive insects that may be in it since the reeds may not have been treated.)
The moral of the story is to verify that the stuff that you're taking across the border is actually legal for import or export. After all, it could have been much worse for this man. I would imagine that charges could have been pressed if they so desired.
(From TFA)
"Razgui, who’s been performing with The Boston Camerata since 2002..."
Perhaps another important sentence you overlooked. Had I been flying back and forth, performing in the same city for over a decade, I would have ZERO reason to suspect any wrongdoing. And assuming someone should know better is like assuming someone should know the 2014 tax code before they go shopping at the mall.
Cotton and wool are agricultural items (Score:4, Insightful)
Bamboo and reeds contains pests (Score:5, Interesting)
So the moral of the story here is, based on experience, if I opened a box with reeds full of holes originating from a foreign land , I'd burn it too.
Re:Bamboo and reeds contains pests (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Bamboo and reeds contains pests (Score:5, Insightful)
I bought some nice wood carvings into Australia a few years back. Customs noticed. They quarantined the items at the airport and said I'll get them back in a month after they had been fumigated due to what appeared to be signs of worms in the wood. They were couriered to my door 3 weeks later.
THAT is how things are supposed to work, without the wholesale destruction of property that occurred in this case.
Re:Bamboo and reeds contains pests (Score:4, Informative)
I used to work in a port. We once received an automobile from Thailand in a 20 ft shipping container. The auto was tied down with ropes and the ropes were tightened by twisting with shafts of bamboo (which, by the way, is about the crappiest way to tied down a car and very non-standard). When we opened up container, the bamboo was riddled with holes from some kind of Asian woodborers that had chewed their way out during transit. Anyway, we had to call the Department of Agriculture inspector (this was before the ag inspectors were merged into customs) who had us fumigate the whole container. So the moral of the story here is, based on experience, if I opened a box with reeds full of holes originating from a foreign land , I'd burn it too.
I currently work in an air cargo facility. I've had CBP have me help them while they looked for 15-20 just to see if 1 wooden skid that the freight was on had markings that indicated it was heat treated. Every skid used has to have those marks, and any shipment using wood has to have documentation that is was heat treated and adheres to US, Canadian, and Mexican laws. Having seen this firsthand, I am really not surprised that CBP destroyed the flutes, however if I didn't work where I do it probably would never have crossed my mind that they would do it.
not just flutes: grand piano seized by TSA twice (Score:4, Informative)
No, they didn't confuse it with a vegetable---apparently Zimerman recently modified his instrument and the piano smelled of glue. As a result he ended up travelling with just the mechanism, fitting it by hand to the boxes at concert halls he plays in.
Re:Saw this earlier (Score:5, Insightful)
Not sure why this is on ./
The dude does have a very legitimate beef though, considering he's taken these around to probably dozens of countries and crossed several hundred borders with them. He apparently had some "raw" material with him to make new flutes, but that wood typically needs to be completely dry and aged. Either way the carved flutes were likely sealed and shouldn't have been destroyed without a very, very good reason, which I doubt the CBP had.
It think because it's about out of control security apparatus, so it's kind of topical?
I guess they will start siezing wood furniture from Ikea now, since,, you know, wood is an agricultural product.
Re:Saw this earlier (Score:4, Informative)
It think because it's about out of control security apparatus, so it's kind of topical?
Yeah, I think an editor went a little knee-jerk. It's customs, not security. Customs has been pissing people off since the Union was founded.
Re:Saw this earlier (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm sorry, did I say steal? I meant to say confiscate and 'destroy'.
(I know they aren't supposed to do things like that, but it actually happens a lot.)
Re:Saw this earlier (Score:5, Informative)
The bigger concern is that nearly all non-digital musical instruments (and some digital instruments) contain agricultural products by such a loose definition. Almost every oboe, clarinet, stringed instrument, etc. worth more than a hundred bucks is made out of wood. Even brass instruments and metal woodwinds (e.g. saxes and flutes) use cork for pads, for stops on keys, for tunable joints, for the ring at the top of trumpet valves, for water key/spit valve corks, and so on (though in some cases, it may be a synthetic cork). Even the felt used in various parts of the instrument may be made from agricultural products.
What this effectively means is that the United States government has declared all musical instruments to be illegal contraband that may not be transported into the United States. Musicians around the world would be advised to avoid travel to the United States and its territories for any reason, or if you cannot avoid travel to this country, arrange to rent an instrument after you get here. It simply is no longer safe to carry your own instruments across the borders of this country until Congress passes a law explicitly forbidding these acts of grand theft.
Re:Saw this earlier (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Saw this earlier (Score:5, Insightful)
Along with the concerns already mentioned, there is also a legitimate concern about the method of destruction. I'm pretty certain that TSA does not keep a yard debris chipper at each customs station. So what are the odds that these primitive artifacts were destroyed by distribution through craigslist sales, curio shops, or to fill somebody's Christmas shopping list?
This whole thing stinks. It definitely has relevance to slashdot: we are talking about persons with no understanding of a technology being put in positions where they can destroy the artifacts of that technology. Would I have trouble taking my collection of slide rules and 1970 era hand calculators through customs? I guess probably so.
Re:Saw this earlier (Score:4, Informative)
" It is a flaw in the TSA`s procedures..."
This was customs, it had nothing to do with the TSA whatsoever.
Re:Saw this earlier (Score:5, Informative)
This was customs, it had nothing to do with the TSA whatsoever.
Customs has been a division of the Department of Homeland Security since 2003, which is the same happy family as the TSA, Immigration Services, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (you know, that group that likes to illegally seize people's domains for the copyright cops), and others. I think the only decent division of it is likely the Coast Guard. Other than that It's become a nice little beehive of government out to control people in the name of fighting "the terrorists".
Re:Saw this earlier (Score:5, Interesting)
IMO, the musician should sue them for the instruments, and the loss of income since he's definitely not going to be able to participate in at least 2 concerts. After all, it's not like he can just go down to the pawn shop and pick up that exact type of rare hand carved flute. And no, the metal ones or different types will not sound/play the same, just ask a musician trained in wind instruments. (It's kind of like if your Cellist loses their cello, it's not like a bass guitar is a comparable substitute. I know, those are string instruments, but the idea is the same.)
Re:Saw this earlier (Score:4, Funny)
Thank you Clippy!
Re:All the news that matters (Score:5, Insightful)
US no longer stands for "Uncle Sam." Now it's "Uncle Stupid." Leather luggage comes from cowhide, isn't that an agricultural item? Fucking morons in charge.
Re:All the news that matters (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:All the news that matters (Score:5, Insightful)
Wooden pencils as well. As a side note I was once sent to Ag inspection for mentioning I had some sea salt. Customs people aren't the brightest bulbs on the tree.
In this particular case, you are giving Customs people way too much credit for comparing them to something as bright as any light bulb.
Rocks more come to mind. You know, like the ones rattling around in the idiots head that could not identify a handmade instrument.
Why in the hell do we put up with such incompetence? Do we not pay enough into the TSA to not hire utter morons? A man's livelihood was destroyed in a matter of hours. Someone should be held accountable, and NOT be able to stand behind some bullshit policy that prevents terrorists from importing rare wood, or whatever the hell we were attempting to prevent here with total destruction.
Re:All the news that matters (Score:5, Interesting)
Why in the hell do we put up with such incompetence? Do we not pay enough into the TSA to not hire utter morons?
Absolutely not! TSA agents are mostly people who couldn't pass the US Postal Carrier exam. Several people I knew who were not "bulbworthy" were getting jobs at the TSA shortly after 9/11. They have a very low bar for entry.
Re:All the news that matters (Score:4, Interesting)
The US Army conducts an IQ test as pre-employment screening to determine which job(s) you may apply for, assuming you cross a minimal threshold, and you may hold an infantry position with the lowest acceptable score. Time and trial have taught the military that lower scores make better better soldiers at positions like 8 hour foxhole guard duty.
There exist occupations, within the military and without, where greater cognitive ability is a distinct advantage.
But there are some that ain't.
Re:All the news that matters (Score:5, Funny)
The army has learned that stupid soldiers aren't good soldiers.
So those too stupid for the Army are sent over to the TSA, right?
Re:All the news that matters (Score:5, Funny)
> So those too stupid for the Army are sent over to the TSA, right?
Are you saying TSA stands for The Stupid Army?
Re:All the news that matters (Score:5, Funny)
TSA Enforcement Officer Mongo added, "Mongo like candy."
Re:All the news that matters (Score:5, Informative)
While I question this thread even being on /. in the first place, from personal experience, the concern was for the possibility of wood boring beetles or other insects hiding in the wood. I once brought back from China 4 sets of large, disassembled picture frames. If it hadn't been one of the first flights back from Asia after 9/11, the inspector would have summarily destroyed them, but he was apparently feeling sorry for all of us on the flight and took me and the frames to the side. He looked up and down each piece looking for any indications of what could indicate any kind of infestation (given that they were solid wood, any penetration should have been visible to the naked eye). Not finding any, he let me continue on with my frames. But if he hadn't had a week or so off, I am quite certain I would have left frame-less and not quite as pissed as this guy has every right to feel.
Given that the inspector knew he would have had to have had the hollow tubes X-rayed to do a proper inspection followed by fumigation almost certainly led him to take the short cut and summarily destroy them. However, the fact that they were (probably) not freshly made musical instruments to anyone with a modicum of intelligence should have led the inspector to do a more detailed inspection, at an absolute minimum questioning the guy about the provenance of the wood sticks.
Re:All the news that matters (Score:5, Informative)
In most U.S. ports, it's not Customs that makes the decision to inspect, it's actually ICE.
In the olden days, back when I worked as a contractor for Customs, entry into the U.S. went like this:
1. You went to Immigration Control first. Pre-ICE (US Immigration Control) checked your passport and entry form, OK'd you to enter, and then you reclaimed your baggage (whether you were traveling onwards or not).
2. You then had to clear Customs, which looked at your itinerary (e.g where you'd been), your bags (i.e were they bulging, smelly, etc.) and your face and non-verbal cues to determine if you warranted a further inspection. If you did have something questionable, there were actually expert (!!!) customs agents available to determine compliance.
Today, it goes like this:
1. You go to Immigration (ICE) first. Based on your facial expressions, non-verbal cues, and passport history, they determine if (1) you're OK to re-enter the US, and (2) if you need further "assistance" with customs. They make a mark on your entry form, which you later turn in to a customs agent, to indicate if you should be further "assisted". The decision regarding inspection and possible seizure of goods is left almost entirely with ICE, who specialize not in Customs enforcement but Border Control.
2. You move on to Customs Enforcement, which looks at your ICE-noted entry form and either inspects, detains, seizes, or lets you go based on ICE notes on your entry form. If ICE didn't mark your entry form for further scrutiny, you move through Customs very quickly.
The reason for the change? Efficiency. Most people re-entering the US don't need any re-entry assistance, and Customs agents are otherwise very busy. Giving ICE the job of determining 90% of Customs work saves time for travelers and money for the government. But the downside is that most ICE agents aren't trained to sniff out the difference between a guy with handcrafted musical instruments made of foreign raw materials from a guy bringing foreign raw materials into the US with the intent of defeating embargoes and/or tariffs.
The point is, it's not Customs that are dim, it's ICE... and as long as it saves most travelers some time at the desk, it probably won't change.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You... I like you
Re:It's not a relevant topic for Slashdot. (Score:5, Insightful)
You make much over-use of the "we". You do not speak for me or for the reasons why I come to slashdot. Take your doltish, bigoted views and STFU.
I read slashdot because I am interested in science and technology, and because I am also interested in anything others with similar interests find interesting. I do not use slashdot as a mirror that would let me pimp and preen in what I already know; I also value its use as a periscope that looks around corners I am unaware of to show me things of interest I would never otherwise see.
This story has value on slashdot.
Re:It's not a relevant topic for Slashdot. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's not a relevant topic for Slashdot. (Score:5, Informative)
I've had an account at /. for over 15 years; you don't even have an account. So shut the fuck up and go to Techdirt if you don't like it. /. has never been solely about "science and technology". It's always had a very strong political part to it, and this cock up at US Customs plays to that part of the site.
Don't like it? Too bad, we won't miss you.
Re: It's not a relevant topic for Slashdot. (Score:5, Insightful)
Well then, explain how this article relates to science and technology. What's that? It doesn't? Shut up then.
If you go through US customs, the tools you use to do your job may not make it with you. Like your phone, laptop, textbooks, thumb drives, or hand made wooden flutes.
Re: It's not a relevant topic for Slashdot. (Score:5, Insightful)
Stuff that matters is part of the slogan so they can post non tech stories sometimes. Seriously, get the fuck over yourself. You do not own /.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
No. I sounds like one exceptional moron decided to go on a power trip. This is like that bitch at the American Airlines counter that can decide that you aren't flying today.
Re:All the news that matters (Score:5, Insightful)
/. has for the longest time covered articles about politics, civil rights and stupidities of the government.
This in my view isn't a story about customs protecting agriculture but rather about a civil servant removing equipment which belonged to someone and without notice or recourse destroying that equipment.
I guess it's not as fun sounding as the TSA confiscating a laptop and not having due process to get it back, but what's really the difference?
Re:All the news that matters (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Inexcusable (Score:5, Informative)
This wasn't the TSA - it was US Customs.
Re:Yes it's hard cheese BUT.... (Score:4, Insightful)
It isn't a case of human rights, illegal searches or ethnic profiling or anything like that.
As far as I'm concerned this is just another misplaced slashdot article.
I think that destruction of valuable personal property is sort of a big deal. Why does customs have the right to destroy personal property with no apparent recourse? Or do they?
It may sound strange, but I absolutely consider the sanctity of personal property as something of a human rights issue. When you destroy or steal someone's valuable property, you are in essence stealing someone's life. In the most abstract sense, this man had to exchange a portion of his life energy in exchange for that property, and by taking it from him, you're also robbing him of his sacrifice. Our lives are the most precious things we have, and if you look at monetary exchanges in terms of people exchanging portions of their lives in exchange for purchasing power, you can understand a little bit as to why personal property is more important that you might have previously thought.
It's very easy to say that one person's misfortune isn't a big deal when it's not YOUR misfortune. ANY personal loss isn't a big deal in the "big picture", because the world's big picture is pretty damn big. Let us know the next time something bad happens to you, and I hope I'm not nearly as callous as you sound right now.
The excuse of "but look what could happen if..." could be used to justify nearly any sort of human-rights abuses in the name of safety. We must always balance the issue of the greater societal good with the rights of the individual. In this case, the government clearly overreached its bounds in the name of what are undoubtedly valid concerns over agricultural protection issues. As such, we shouldn't be blaming the individual or shrugging our shoulders, but looking for ways to improve the system.
Re:Kinda sucks. (Score:4, Insightful)
What can you do? Require that the owner is informed of a possible problem before any action is taken, and also require them to be present to witness and acknowledge in writing the destruction of any items. The first condition would vastly reduce mistakes, the second takes care of theft disguised as seizure. I know checked baggage doesn't always take the same route as the passenger, but if something is found in an en route search that doesn't pose an immediate threat to the aircraft the luggage item could be tagged (say, a big red sticker) and the matter dealt with at the final destination.
The problem isn't that customs inspection is pointless, I think it actually does serve a valid purpose, so shutting them down is the wrong solution. The problem is giving civil servants the power to summarily destroy property more or less at whim and without consultation; that's a bug which can be fixed without nuking the entire system.