FBI: $10,000 Reward For Info On Anyone Who Points a Laser At an Aircraft 445
coondoggie writes "Here's a good idea: The FBI has launched a targeted, 60-day program that will offer up to a $10,000 for information leading to the arrest of anyone who intentionally aims a laser at an aircraft. The FBI said the laser-pointing scourge continues to grow at an alarming rate. Since the FBI and the Federal Aviation Administration began tracking laser strikes in 2005, there has been ridiculous 1,000% increase in the number of laser pointing/aircraft incidents. Last year, 3,960 laser strikes against aircraft were reported — an average of almost 11 incidents per day."
This isn't the best way to handle the problem (Score:2)
The laser incidents are so numerous that it will be impossible to deal with the problem by prosecutions. It seems to me that a problem that cannot be solved by stopping the perpetrators needs to be solved a different way, such as designing planes to not be vulnerable to the lasers.
Re:This isn't the best way to handle the problem (Score:5, Insightful)
This is very definitely a good idea, however I don't mind also taking morons who are deliberately messing with a vehicle carrying dozens to hundreds of live human beings and giving them a time out in a cell to think about why that's a stupid thing to do.
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I think the right answer is Hellfire missiles equipped to track lasers...
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Someone who doesnt like lets say, america is in lets say, a tower in some city, lets say NYC. And they point a laser at a plane, which in turn shoots a hellfire missile at the empire stat building.
Too many potential issues with such a plan
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Not true, but the laser has to be pointed at the missile for this to work. It is not the standard way of doing this though. Probably would need a laser-location system and the Hellfire would need to fly inertial guidance to the calculated target.
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There are a large number of ways that unskilled idiots can cause damage and loss of life. Oil on mountain road curves. Metal debris on railway tracks. Rocks dropped from highway overpasses. Poison in supermarket food. We can't use technology to protect against all of these. Lasers are a tricky problem since they are available in a variety of wavelengths, it isn't easy to make a filter that will stop all of them.
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Anti-laser glasses for pilots are readily available.
Is this really a problem? (Score:3, Interesting)
Okay, so an el-cheapo red laser pointer at a range of 500 ft (Aircraft on approach).
Daylight - Can the pilot even see it?
Night time. At 500 feet, is it even as bright as his instrument lights? Between dust and moisture vapor is the beam even still anywhere close to focused?
Yeah, I know people can go and by multi-watt green lasers that can pop balloons from 100 yards. But to say that an el-cheapo red light wielded with harmless intent should be subject to the same penalties as a multi-watt laser wielded with intent to disrupt/harm seems to be going the whole zero-tolerance BS route.
I'm curious. Has anyone ever actually caused harm in US airspace with a laser pointer yet? Or are we creating a crime around something that has never caused harm?
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Proactive overreaction is how your government has been conditioned to respond.
Realistic concerns like budgetary constraints are foreign to them.
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Harm? well Helicopter pilots have been forced to land, and some have been temporarily blinded.
As for the rest of your argument, let me introduce you to my little friend:
http://www.wickedlasers.com/ar... [wickedlasers.com]
No all lasers are .005 watt pointers.
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And here's the pilots little friend.
http://www.iridian.ca/english/... [iridian.ca]
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Which is why I specifically differentiated between the two in my post. There's a difference between driving at a reasonable speed and speeding. There's a difference between talking and a jet engine. There a difference between a harmless act and a harmful act.
Is it necessary to prosecute everyone who aims a laser pointer at a plane, or only those who aim multiwatt devices at cockpit windows?
I've had moron teenagers point a red laser at me at night while driving. It was annoying, but it did not make me cr
Re:Is this really a problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
Based on my experience with these things at a beach, yes, they're very bright at night, and far, far brighter than instrument lights. I'm not talking $5 laser pointer, but $30 higher output (still tens of mW) toys.
Has anyone ever caused harm on US highways with a laser pointer? If not, is it ok if they hang around on your route home and shine it in your eyes as you drive by? Again, based on my experience at the beach, having these things shined in my eyes as I'm driving would be a problem and a hazard. Does someone actually have to be hurt or killed before we say stop?
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Does someone actually have to be hurt or killed before we say stop?
Generally speaking, yes. There are an infinite number of potentially harmful or lethal things. Society usually waits until they've shown themselves to be actually harmful or legal.
Re:Is this really a problem? (Score:4, Insightful)
Does someone actually have to be hurt or killed before we say stop?
Well, given that HID headlamps are still legal, the answer seems to be "Yes".
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Yes, it is really a problem. Why are you focusing on the red laser pointers when you acknowledge that the green ones are a problem? Seems a bit like asking if there's really a problem with gun crime because NERF doesn't hurt (if NERF and real guns were on a continuum, which they aren't really).
But to say that an el-cheapo red light wielded with harmless intent should be subject to the same penalties...
Is anyone saying that?
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But to say that an el-cheapo red light wielded with harmless intent should be subject to the same penalties...
Is anyone saying that?
Well, yes. As it is now, the El-Cheapo(tm) 5 mW red laser pointer is subject to the same $10K penalty as the 2-Watt green laser.
So to use your analogy - it is as though we are treating NERF(tm) guns the same as hunting rifles.
How to get $10,000 for free... (Score:3, Funny)
1) Own a Cessna.
2) Aim a laser at it in the safety of your hangar.
3) ???
4) Profit!!!
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1) Own a Cessna.
2) Aim a laser at it in the safety of your hangar.
3) ???
4) Profit!!!
And then be arrested for doing something that should be legal, but isn't.
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1) Own a Cessna.
2) Aim a laser at it in the safety of your hangar.
3) ???
4) Profit!!!
And then be arrested for doing something that should be legal, but isn't.
It should be legal to fire lasers at planes and endanger the people aboard? Or did you mean at your own plane while it is on the ground?
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There. Fixed that for you.
Well lasers are getting better.. (Score:2)
I think people must be doing this out of boredom. With fun lasers like these [trinaryproducts.com] people can find more constructive things to do with them.
Truth or Dare (Score:2)
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Downside: You must endanger the lives of hundreds of innocents (or more if the plane crashes into a stadium or something).
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Seems overblown issue (Score:2)
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In this case, the person with the laser should know better and it should be easier to find them.
That's your answer? Lasers aren't really a problem because the people using them should know better, and they should be easy to catch? Good one!
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It's not overblown because it is happening on landing and approach, otherwise it wouldn't be noticed. And no people are not smart enough to not attempt mass murder.
Simple (Score:4, Funny)
Felony prosecution. 25 years to life. No parole. Must register on the "laser pointing offenders" list. Driver's license suspended. Credit Score cut to one. Automatic bankruptcy. All assets forfeited. House fuel air bombed, bulldozed, soil salted and paved over with pig iron, rocks and low grade cement.
Must stand on a chair and sing the "I AM A VERY BAD PERSON" song while applying for any job. Five million dollar fine paid in equal daily installments for 35 years. Not allowed to date, marry or smile at anyone.
Must appear in at least five television commercials a year (at own expense) to announce "I am a poopy face" while dressed up like a cartoon airplane and being physically kicked in the ass by a sunglasses-wearing security officer with a blinking overlay of name and social security number.
If not 18 yet, then the parents and grandparents are all prosecuted instead.
And no laughing.
Has anybody even LOOKED at a jumbo jet lately? (Score:2)
Perhaps someone from one of the airlines or better still the FAA could demonstrate just how disruptive a laser pointer is to flight operations? At 30,000 feet, I suspect that 2-3mm beam will already be scattered to several feet (with an attendant loss of intensity). On takeoff or final approach somebody might be able to paint th
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The world is bigger than "jumbo jets". When the police or medical services come, they are not driving a "jumbo jet" - and yes there are documented cases of of helicopter crews being incapacitated from a laser incident.
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When lasers get pointed at police helicopters, the pilots respond by heading closer to the laser to identify the position for ground cops to follow up on. Doesn't sound like they are that incapacitated.
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oh no .. common sense? That's probably a 25K fine. And those who "cite" anything just keep ranting about "some helicopter pilot who was incapacitated". Perhaps the laser "attack" was just an excuse for something else? Or a desire to get attention? It would hardly be the first time someone claimed injury for publicity.
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Google "helicopter laser pointer" - first item to pop up
http://www.wfaa.com/news/local... [wfaa.com]
Is this good enough for you? There are others...
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I Googled "laser pointer helicopter" and the first results were exactly what I expected: images of this famous scene [mashable.com] from the Egyption protests awhile back. The pilot apparently suffered no harm, and I think it's safe to say that as far as aircraft pilots go, he's probably had more laser pointers pointed at him than pretty much anyone else ever.
Not an issue before green pointers became common. (Score:2)
So we should ban green laser pointers, right? Clearly, they're the problem since this wasn't happening when red pointers were all but the only option. No. The problem is that pilots, in the pitch black of night can see beams of green laser pointers off somewhere in the distance. With no useful reference for actual distance and nothing else in the night sky to compare it to, the pilots assume they're very nearby and must be being pointed at them. I have no doubt that some aircraft have had a beam enter the c
Music festivals (Score:2)
Hire the homeless! (Score:2)
Sounds like a great money-making scheme to me. Get some drugged up homeless guy convinced it's a space ship and that he'd be helping to shoot it down and then capture the video on your phone for evidence and poof! $10,000!
Christmas Presents! (Score:2)
I know what all the neighborhood hooligans are getting for Christmas! LASER POINTERS!
I also know what I'll be getting for New Years, $10,000!
Pretty sure you can't block them all (Score:3)
Lasers are light, not magic. If you block the laser beam you block its frequency (color) of light. If you block all the possible laser frequencies I'm pretty sure the cockpit isn't going to be nearly as transparent, which is kind of the point of the cockpit. Raising the awareness that this is stupid and dangerous is a perfectly reasonable way to address the problem. A conviction shouldn't ruin someone's life forever but it sure as hell should make them and anyone that hears about it not want to do this.
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Just issue the pilots with anti-laser glasses. They can choose for themselves when to filter and when not to.
bombs (Score:2)
Recipe for abuse (Score:2)
If i don't like my black/muslim/spanish/different-in-some-way neighbors, or the boyfriend of the girl i want, i can just report them as pointing a laser to a passing aircraft. In the worst case i could say that I mistook a keychain for a laser pointer. In the best case, i will get $10.000, and could get rid of that neighbor because he will be victim of authorities/nsa confirmation bias [aljazeera.com].
And it could work in both ways, if you don't want that nasty redneck falsely accuse you, you can accuse him first. In any
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The worst case you get caught for filing a false police report, which is a significant crime that can lead to long jail-time.
You could as easily falsely accuse your neighbour of threatening your life, or abusing you physically, or hatching a bomb plot, or dumping a dead body off a nearby river-bridge, or raping you, or whatever. In practice, most intentionally-false reports appear to be extremely rare.
What power laser pointers are doing this? (Score:2)
Is it any of the cheap units professors use, or it is some kind of powerful hobby version?
And it's worse if you are a helicopter pilot (Score:4, Informative)
When the laser hits the glass/plexiglass, it spreads all around the cabin, making it near impossible to see and possibly temporarily blinding the pilot.
It's pretty damn dangerous.
Pilot - Experience being hit by a laser (Score:5, Informative)
Night landings are, by their nature, more difficult and more dangerous than daytime landings. Assuming visual conditions, nearly everything is dependent upon being able to continuously see runway lights. About 10 minutes prior to landing, the standard procedure is to dim everything in the cockpit to it's lowest setting. The goal of this is to make sure the pilot's eyes are dilated as much as possible to see the runway lights and land safely.
About 5 years ago, I was landing at Chicago Dupage airport. About 1 mile from the runway threshold and about 500 ft above the ground, I was repeatedly hit by a bright red laser. Immediately after the first bright flash from the laser, I felt like I'd just walked from daylight into a dark room. I couldn't see anything. I couldn't see any instruments (Remember, they're all dimmed as low as possible) and the runway lights were suddenly very dim. After the second and third time, I couldn't see the runway lights anymore. My only choice was to add power, pull up and hope that I was still flying straight. I overflew most of the airport and remember finally getting good vision back about the time I was over the subdivision north of the airport. That subdivision is about 3 miles from where it all started. I turned over the subdivision and landed on a perpendicular runway.
I then released a torrent of profanities and considered all of the most painful ways to kill someone if I could ever find the #@(#*$@(#*$@(*##$(@* that hit me with that laser.
I'm all for higher penalties for this crap. It's probably already killed people. We don't know for sure because plane crash victims don't tend to be very talkative.
Re:So..... (Score:5, Insightful)
No, this is the right approach. Every time you caught someone pointing a laser pointer to a plane, fine the idiot to bankruptcy to cover the rewards and potential damages to the crew, then throw some terrorism charges and lock them behind bars for 20 years and the number of incidents WILL get down.
The issue here is idiots failing to understand the consequences of their actions and the potential damages they can cause. A harsh punishment will raise awareness on the problem and once enough awareness is achieved incidents will go down. Not to mention that finding and disposing of morons will potentially become a booming industry and we all benefit from finding and disposing of morons (even temporarily).
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> idiots failing to understand the consequences of their actions and the potential damages they can cause
What was the damage? What percentage of the 11 planes fell out of the sky? Are plane hulls vulnerable to lasers? Cat's don't seem to be vulnerable to lasers. Perhaps we should be prosecuting people who point lasers as cats.
Re: So..... (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news/9242814.Man_dies_after_yobs_stop_air_ambulance_landing_in_Calne/
Re:So..... (Score:5, Informative)
The *potential* damage could be a few hundred dead people at the end of a runway. It's not that they're damaging to the eye, they're distracting. When cats start flying aircraft, maybe people will be prosecuted.
Check out the gifs on this page.. I definitely wouldn't want to try landing a plane in that situation.
http://www.laserpointersafety.... [laserpointersafety.com]
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The PD, by the way, will follow up on snowballs. People have been killed from snowballs (or ice) hurled from overpasses causing car accidents on major thoroughfares. That in fact IS worth prosecuting. That is REAL harm.
Also, red herring comparison in the sense that the average pilot of an airliner having a mishap means way more involved parties than just h
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I believe the FBI has jurisdiction over aircraft safety not random local snowball throwing.
okay sorry about that. is *anyone* FBI making pleas to the public to report snow ball throwers?
I really hate these "If you can't control everything we should not control anything" statements. Kids throwing snowballs have a much lower injury potential than laser dazzling pilots.
spend your effort on issues that are causing real problem, not hypothetical ones.
Laser dazzle is complete and can last quite a while.
well, snow sightedness can last even longer. see, i can make up fake medical terms as well. search for "laser dazzle" why don't you? you'll get a bunch of references to military grade laser weapons. sort of off topic.
Re:So..... (Score:5, Insightful)
35 incidents where pilots required medical attention. There's your damage.
There are generally two ways to approach safety.
1) Wait for consequences and then try to fix the cause
2) Identify dangerous situations and fix them before people get hurt
Either approach can be taken too far to the extreme, but in this case there have already been issues and the frequency of the incidents are increasing. I would rather stop the problem before a plane falls out of the sky. At 11 incidents PER DAY, statistics favor something happening.
One could argue that "kids will be kids", but at what point is a kid playing with matches not considered safe. Tools exist and many tools are dangerous and it takes education and awareness to help people know how to use things properly.
Personally, I think they should make an example out of a few of them and have them charged with 200 counts of attempted murder. It would certainly get some awareness to the issue.
Re:So..... (Score:4, Insightful)
And what, pray-tell are you basing your assumption that this will work on? Generally this making a harsh example of people theory seems to do little more than justify enforcement budgets and act as an excuse to not solve underlying problems than it does to actually curb the issues it is aimed at.
I guess if you insist on not trying to find a creative solution that deals with the actual problem, foisting the issue off on law enforcement and blaming them for not being harsh or effective enough does effectively solve the issue for anyone who isn't all that interested in solving it.
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Posting to undo mod mistake
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Phew, that's a tough one!
Here are some thoughts on the matter.
If you point to stars with a laser [one of the advertized uses of those devices and the only use I would care about if I had one] it might be a tad difficult not to hit a plane by accident from time to time [move your arm by an inch and you cover many miles up there]. Also, the amount of planes these days is ridiculous. Maybe we should accept this minor evil and equip the planes with some filters or something. I don't know, maybe that would be to
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Not sure that is the best example. Where I grew (in USA) up one could legally drive by age 14 – car or tractor – on road or off – and those things are more dangerous than lasers.
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Not sure that is the best example. Where I grew (in USA) up one could legally drive by age 14 – car or tractor – on road or off – and those things are more dangerous than lasers.
Not to an airplane.
I mean, I suppose they could drive it on to a runway...
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Not so much [physicsforums.com].
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"Shouldn't they be looking at a different solution here?"
What's wrong with the old system. Tell people they will burn in eternal hell fire if they point a laser at aircraft.
Either that or start a rumour about hairy palms.
Anyone smart enough to know this is BS probably isn't the type to do it in the first place.
Children and morons will be too scared to do it.
And they say religion has no place in modern society.
Someone invent... (Score:3)
Re:So..... (Score:4, Insightful)
There is nothing analogous in copyright infringement. Here we are talking about a moron intentionally putting hundred of life in danger for his or hers own amusement. Thats criminal behavior and should be prosecuted in a criminal court and a person that fails to understand something as basic as that SHOULD be locked away were it does not endanger others.
And yes, I'm aware that harsh punishments is sometimes overkill, but in this case is deserved.
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Imagine how high it would be if they didnt ...
In 2013, the murder rate would have been about 13 lower. Source:
http://www.txexecutions.org/stats.asp [txexecutions.org]
Re:So..... (Score:5, Funny)
1. Find "80-IQ drooling moron to point a laser at an aircraft"
2. Give them a laser pointer
3. Show them an airplane
4. Profit ~ $10,000
The 'murican dream.
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I think you could say the same about kids playing with matches.
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You could use the same argument for kitchen knifes and sticking them into people...
Stupidity is not acceptable when it seriously endangers others.
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I was just coming here to talk about the trend of denying or trivializing the problem by other laser enthusiasts, instead of doing their best to help eliminate the problem that threatens their hobby almost as much as it does the lives of the hundreds of passengers on each plane...thanks for demonstrating it for me.
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Here are some better examples of denial and trivialization for you, since you didn't pick up on the common dog-whistle of "modify the planes to be laser-proof instead!"
http://news.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org]
http://news.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org]
http://news.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org]
http://news.slashdot.org/comme... [slashdot.org]
And would it take an unjust government to keep RC planes and unlit towers away from airliners, or just laser pointers?
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In the case of unlit towers, it is simply illegal to build a structure over a certain height with no lights on it. For RC planes, they aren't allowed to fly over a certain ceiling altitude or in areas near airports.
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Care to suggest one?
It's not like there's a technical solution on the laser pointer end, and as long as pilots use windows there isn't one on the plane end. You could try education, but there will always be idiots.
Swift justice will do more to get the word out.
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Laser seeking high explosive missiles that are auto launched from the aircraft. Kills some of these idiots and word will get out.
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Totally solves the problem until someone realizes how he can not only defeat that but turn it against others with....a mirror or camera and remote control. As an added bonus, the blast should scatter the evidence nicely too.
Care to try again?
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"Laser seeking high explosive missiles that are auto launched from the aircraft. Kills some of these idiots and word will get out."
First law of laser:
Don't point a laser at an aircraft.
" Ever heard of collateral damage?"
Second law of laser:
Don't stand near somebody who is pointing a laser at an aircraft.
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You forgot the zeroeth law: do not shine laser in remaining eye.
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If they're adult males, they're called "suspected militants."
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I feel like Im getting dumber by reading this thread. Do any of you have anything relevant to the real world to say, or do you want to continue your fantasyland posturing?
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Yeah, windows that don't allow light to pass through them.
I believe that's called a wall.
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No I think he was suggesting that some number of those 11 each day is likely someone pissed off about plane noise in his neigborhood. 11 is a pretty small number compared to both people and flights, it doesn't take much. One pissed off guy could be the cause of those kind of numbers. (though I suspect it would be much easier to solve if that were the case).
11 times a day is easily within the realm of possibility if you have even a moderate/small population of people pissed off an acting out individually. Th
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This people are stupid enough to believe in chemtrail conspiricy theories; and, yes, some of them are stupid enough to shoot lasers [godlikeproductions.com] at them.
Re:Reflective cockpit windows (Score:5, Insightful)
I do not wear sunglasses when landing at night.
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Indeed. In the place where I live, there is also a growing trend of cretins pointing lasers at ambulance helicopters. Even if the pilot manages a safe emergency landing, this could well kill the person being transported.
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Indeed that would be stupid. But there's no reason you shouldn't wear anti-laser glasses.
Re:Reflective cockpit windows (Score:4, Insightful)
For which wavelength?
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> For which wavelength?
~532nm.
99.9% of these cases involve the cheapo frequency doubled greenies. All the other colors are significantly more expensive for the power levels that are dangerous to pilots and are thus both exponentially more rare and much more likely to be owned by people who know better than to do stupid shit with them.
There is no theoretically perfect solution, but there is a practical solution.
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Here is a better idea: "don't distract the pilot"
I think it should be more sporting. I think I should get to shoot back.
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With current technology, it would probably be fairly trivial to fire a laser back at any painters in order to blind them and get them to give up. I could see this defensive measure being installed on commercial airliners as a way to stop them.
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What height exactly? The height of an airplane taking off isn't really that high. Who says they're using average laser pointers? A beach I frequent sells those higher powered pointers. Some idiot was waving one around 1/4 to 1/2 mile away on the beach, and when it crossed my eyeball, it was a damned bright FLASH.
Re:So? (Score:5, Interesting)
Cretins are pointing these things at planes that are in the final stage of landing. And yes, at night these are enough to momentarily blind the pilot. Add a gust of wind or some other problem and you have a nice mass-murder.
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Wrong. Here's one:
http://www.wfaa.com/news/local... [wfaa.com]
Sure, his helicopter didn't crash, but either this was 1 accident, or it was worse than an accident, it was deliberate assault, which doesn't help the case.
http://www.wired.com/dangerroo... [wired.com]
Four more people hospitalized and blinded. This one is extra-crazy since it's military "friendlies".
Note also that non-laser light sources have been a problem in the past.
These were two of the first three results for "laser dazzle accidents" (no quotes) -- the other was
Re:Profit Making Enterprise? (Score:5, Funny)
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What are the rules for pointing a laser pointer at a drone? A drone operating before 500'? 50'?
Parts of Colorado permit the use of firearms, but they should update it to include more modern weapons too.
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"Parts of Colorado" is a truck stop town that tried to make a political statement. It didn't last past the first visit to their lawyer's office.
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(Drone operator) yells "I see light." and deploys a Hellfire guided missile to ride the laser beam down to target.
Fade out and roll closing credits.
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You are wrong. Also take into account that some cretins use lasers that _can_ blind people permanently for this.
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The only real danger time is take off and landing. And pilots could wear anti-laser glasses at those times.
When a plane is in normal flight it's far too far away and fast moving to have any dangerous effect from a laser. Contrary to popular opinion laser light does diverge.
Think any different? Cite an example of a pilot with eye damage.
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Well here's a reward, you got a potential mass-murderer busted and reduced the chances of him making another attempt. You might have even saved the lives of everyone on another flight that day.