Misogyny, Entitlement, and Nerds 1198
PvtVoid writes: "Jeopardy champion Arthur Chu pens a heartfelt takedown of misogyny in nerd culture: 'I’ve heard and seen the stories that those of you who followed the #YesAllWomen hashtag on Twitter have seen—women getting groped at cons, women getting vicious insults flung at them online, women getting stalked by creeps in college and told they should be "flattered." I’ve heard Elliot Rodger’s voice before. I was expecting his manifesto to be incomprehensible madness—hoping for it to be—but it wasn’t. It’s a standard frustrated angry geeky guy manifesto, except for the part about mass murder. I've heard it from acquaintances, I've heard it from friends. I've heard it come out of my own mouth, in moments of anger and weakness.
What the f*$# is wrong with us? How much longer are we going to be in denial that there's a thing called "rape culture" and we ought to do something about it? ... To paraphrase the great John Oliver, listen up, fellow self-pitying nerd boys — we are not the victims here. We are not the underdogs. We are not the ones who have our ownership over our bodies and our emotions stepped on constantly by other people's entitlement. We're not the ones where one out of six of us will have someone violently attempt to take control of our bodies in our lifetimes.'"
What the f*$# is wrong with us? How much longer are we going to be in denial that there's a thing called "rape culture" and we ought to do something about it? ... To paraphrase the great John Oliver, listen up, fellow self-pitying nerd boys — we are not the victims here. We are not the underdogs. We are not the ones who have our ownership over our bodies and our emotions stepped on constantly by other people's entitlement. We're not the ones where one out of six of us will have someone violently attempt to take control of our bodies in our lifetimes.'"
#notallgeekyguys (Score:5, Insightful)
"Itâ(TM)s a standard frustrated angry geeky guy manifesto ..."
You hang around a weird/scary bunch of angry geeky guys. The "manifesto" becomes far-out well before the murder-intent plans.
What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know about you, but there's nothing wrong with me. I would appreciate it if you stopped putting words into my mouth.
yet another one of these stories? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think Henry Rollins summed it up the best...
You say we're all the same.
You don't even know my name.
Sometime somewhere someone wants hurt you and I'm one of them
You think you know about me...
You don't know a damn thing about me!
So I take all the blame...
I'm not all men
I'm just one man
I'm not that man!
forever actually (Score:4, Insightful)
How much longer are we going to be in denial that there's a thing called "rape culture" and we ought to do something about it?
Forever, because there is no such thing. Only by using the ever-expanding militant-feminist definition of rape which currently stands at "anything, at all, ever, that makes me in the slightest bit uncomfortable" can we possibly believe there's actually a culture of rape. What we ACTUALLY have is a culture of socailly retarded males and females, and culture of feminists preying on the socially retarded females and making them believe that they're entitled to waltz through never being made to feel uncomfortable, ever. This is patently untrue, and no amount of slut-walks can ever create a utopia where a woman - even a man - can leave a ladeeda life.
Re:Yeah, but.... (Score:4, Insightful)
women are also bitches.
So what? You're an asshole. That does not give me the right to take your life.
Fuck you (Score:5, Insightful)
The guy went to the gym and loved to go out and take pics of himself and his BMW. He was not a nerd.
You will have to use the Asians or autists as scapegoats because we are not taking the fall for this one. Go to hell you piece of shit.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:4, Insightful)
You are right! The problem with stereotyping all guys the same is a real problem and it's indisputable that it needs to stop.
I've been under a rock... (Score:5, Insightful)
Most of those I know are frightened at the very concept of dating, pretty socially awkward I guess, but kind and gentle caring people who wouldn't even DREAM of hurting anyone. Sure, they'll kick your mental-a** and hurt your coding feelings by pointing out the numerous bugs in your code, and flaws in your theories, and possibly sweep the floor with your ego in gaming, but no way they'd ever even lift a finger to actually hurt you.
Nerds are usually unsure of themselves, usually excellent at SOMETHING and not so much at everything else. This is usually because they have spent so much time coding and learning very complicated stuff that takes a LONG time of anyone's life, so it's bound to steal some time from the usual life that just about anyone else live, learning the ropes of networking and social skills.
I must have been living under a rock the last 30 years or so.
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:1, Insightful)
I haven't read the manifesto. Please google NotAllMen and do a bit of reading. Maybe Slate's http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2014/05/27/not_all_men_how_discussing_women_s_issues_gets_derailed.html
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:1, Insightful)
Misogyny, Entitlement, and [other classifier] (Score:5, Insightful)
So, while the main threads of this discussion will certainly have no trouble sustaining combustion, what happens if we change the title to:
Misogyny, Entitlement, and Muslims
Misogyny, Entitlement, and Hispanics
Misogyny, Entitlement, and The 1%
Is it still open season on Nerds? Will I not get in trouble for binding "those people" to Nerds, as opposed to Blacks, or Jews, or... ?
Wow (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is very real, but it doesn't change the fact it doesn't apply to everyone here.
It's not about being a "nerd"... (Score:4, Insightful)
This guy was a complete a-hole, that's a given. He was also from a wealthy family and had a tremendous sense of entitlement. I'd venture that a good part of his misogyny has a basis in that upbringing and entitled lifestyle.
Let's leave the labels out of it and have a real discussion about mental health and social attitudes for a change.
I'm assuming. (Score:2, Insightful)
Assuming posting this on Slashdot was an attempt to prove verify the author's thesis. Bravo. The comment thread proves the veracity of everything he says.
Re:yet another one of these stories? (Score:5, Insightful)
This. So much fucking this.
Men are not rapists. RAPISTS are rapists.
Wasn't the whole point of the civil rights movement of the last 60 years that everybody deserved to be judged on their own actions, merits, and efforts, not by which group they are born in to? This new bullshit where it's now socially "acceptable" to hurl insults, accusations, and blame at certain groups (you know the ones I'm talking about) because they're seen as somehow being descended from THE OPPRESSORS runs contrary to everything we as a society have been working to fix this whole time.
The idea is to stop generalizing and stereotyping groups, not change which groups you stereotype! For fuck's sake... seriously.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Insightful)
The irony is that Chu is attacking nerds for stereotyping all women. But in the process, he's stereotyping all nerds.
Look Arthur, we're all really happy that you've got a GF who you think this stunt will impress. But throwing one group under the bus to stand up for another still results in just as many people getting hit by the bus.
I don't think 'nerds' are capable of rape... (Score:2, Insightful)
What is this bullshit? Why is he talking about "us", how dare he try to include ALL men in this rubbish. Perhaps he needs to find better friends?
The correct term is Pathological Narcissist. (Score:5, Insightful)
Really people you have it backwards the cause was no misogyny that is a symptom.
If this guy had been gay he would have hated men that did not want to sleep with him.
If this person had been a straight woman she would have hated men that would not sleep with her.
If this person had been a gay woman she would have hated women that would not sleep with her.
They key here is Narcissist. It is selfishness taken to a pathological level. People like that hate those that do not give them what they want.
Stupid Blame Game (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is Elliot Rodger being put into the Nerd category? I have not seen anything on this guy that would put him in the Geek or Nerd category. What languages did he code in? What con's did he attend? What was his comic book/manga collection like? What technical degree's did he hold? This discussion has nothing to do with "misogyny entitlement nerds" but a genuine crazy kid.
Just because some guy is a Asperger social reject does not put him into the category of nerd or geek. Elliot has major issues and he blamed women and people who had social skills for his troubles. He was an entitled little shit who thought having a BMW, traveling the world and wearing $500 sweaters would automatically get him the girls. It turns out he lacked the one major component in the Get The Girl Formula that you really need, a personality. He found an outlet in Men's Rights/The Red Pill/Misogyny but he could have found an outlet in any of the other shitty beliefs that exist in our society like 9/11 conspiracies, Little Green Men and the Black President is from Kenya. Blaming a sub collection of a sub portion of our culture is not going to find the answer to the complex problem of what to do with truly mentally ill people.
Misandry and Mental Health (Score:2, Insightful)
So much of what is coming out of #YesAllWomen is misandry disguised as fighting misogyny. Firefox is telling me misandry isn't even a word for crying out loud.
Elliot Rodger was a mental health issue, it had nothing to do with gender. Whether he got his orders from The Beatles backwards music, Allah or porn culture, the fact is he was mentally broken. Shame on the media and shame on you for distracting from the problem, mental health issues, and making it a gender issue just to get more tweets.
Despite men in the U.S. suffering violent death at a rate more than three times that of women we get campaigns to end violence, but only against women.
He could have gotten laid for less than the cost of the gun. He could have killed just women rather than more men then women. He didn't. Misogyny is an excuse, a convenient one for people to express their misandry.
Re:Yeah, but.... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's because this entire submission should be modded -5 Flamebait
Re:forever actually (Score:0, Insightful)
I keep hearing people say that we 'blame the victim' but i really don't know anyone who actually does this or anyone who encourages this behavior i don't know what goes on down south but up here in Canada rape is bad and we blame rapists..
Re:Misogyny, Entitlement, and [other classifier] (Score:2, Insightful)
They did the title that way because they're using the same tactics Gawker does. Post a headline that's intentionally controversial and contains opinions that are almost guaranteed to piss people off in order to bait people into clicking on their articles. Kotaku does this ALL THE TIME with video games. For instance, one of their most famed commentators is Patricia Hernandez, who frequently posts articles about how popular games are "sexist" and people should be ashamed to be playing them. Does Patricia Hernandez care about sexism? Maybe, who knows. Does Patricia Hernandez get paid by the number of clicks, and thus ad impressions, on her article? Yes, she does, and she likely cares more about her paycheck than calling out sexism that isn't there.
There's also people like Jason Schrier, who was outspoken about how sexist Dragon's Crown was (mostly for the large-breasted sorceress character). The artist behind the game did everything on purpose to give the characters unique silhouettes (since it's a Shadows over Mystara style action game), but Schrier wrote article after article about it, each one garnering thousands of clicks from people who clicked the article merely to tell him off. He actually garnered several thousand hits about how he was going to boycott one of the major trade shows/conventions (I think it might've been PAX) because the press passes for that featured art from Dragon's Crown on them.
Does Jason Schrier care about sexism? No, probably not, and most feminists would probably reject him simply for being male. Does he care about his paycheck? Hell yes he does.
There have been numerous articles examining Gawker's clickbaiting behavior, and this seems to be more of the same.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:2, Insightful)
The problem isn't that all nerds are psychotic stalkers or super gross creepy dudes, it's that as a sub culture, we let those people thrive.
By letting them amongst our ranks, and by letting them know it's OK to cyberstalk someone or that hey it's ok, she was a bitch anyway or any number of inhuman and gross misogynistic streaks in our culture, we are defined by them now.
Re:yet another one of these stories? (Score:4, Insightful)
I think Henry Rollins summed it up the best...
He usually does.
Re:Open season on the white male (Score:5, Insightful)
Every single day more people ar ekilled with guns due to gang violence than happened by this one sick fuck, yet we focus on the sick fuck rather than on gang culture??
Dear Arthur Chu (Score:4, Insightful)
Writing anti-male missives won't get you laid.
Hopping on the misogyny bandwagon will not get you laid.
Until you understand the differences of what women say versus how they act, you will continue to be powerless in your quest for attention.
http://www.returnofkings.com/3... [returnofkings.com]
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:5, Insightful)
How could anyone even remotely think it's a "standard frustrated geeky guy manifesto". I would wager his particular problem is shared my more than a few people who visit this website, or at least was, long ago. I find it impossible to believe that most of us chose to blame women for not making themselves available to us in our every moment of need, to blame other men who were seemingly getting that treatment for our own failings, and in general feeling such an intense narcissism and sense of entitlement to think the whole world (men and women) owe to us our ideal experience. This guy was off his rocker, I don't know if his problem was psychological or poor upbringing, but I don't think in our most desperate hour do the majority of us think that we were OWED any form of gratification. Honestly the whole thing is insulting to men and this article, to geeks.
As politically incorrect as it is to say, there is such a thing as 'boys being boys', as much as there is 'girls being girls'. I have limited experience with the latter, beyond cursory comments from my sibling. But boys will say stupid shit inspired by whatever transitory self-hating emotion they were inflicted with at the time, let loose with the grease of whatever chemical they chose to release it with. It may be hateful, self indulging, offensive or outrageous but it's usually done "with the guys" often after rejection or some failure. The emotion is vented. I don't believe for a minute that the majority actually believe their press, or would act on some idiotic revenge fantasy, or even remember their own bullshit the next morning. "Rape culture" is nothing more than vigorous internet trolling that has fed on itself and become a mythical monster that better adjusted males know is utter crap, but which the mentally unstable lock on to and embrace. It's as believable to me as video game inspired violence, in that it happens, but the problem was never the game. Does the presence of "pedo bear" imply the existence of a widespread pedophillia culture?
This is just another excuse to be outraged. We can't blame guns because he killed more people with knives. So let's focus on the ravings of an obvious madman, and let's take them seriously!
How was he a "nerd?" (Score:4, Insightful)
It’s a standard frustrated angry geeky guy manifesto, except for the part
Except for the part where it isn't. The manifesto is a lot of things. It's a case study in narcissistic personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, social anxiety disorder...you name it, it's in there, and you can spin it however you want.
The kid played WoW, so he must be a geek.
Never mind that he didn't excel in academics, that he never showed any interest in science, mathematics or technology, that he took a handful of liberal arts courses that he had to drop because the only thing he could concentrate on were girls. Does that sound like a geek? No, to me it pretty much sounds like everybody who isn't a geek.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:3, Insightful)
This is exactly the clueless response I expected when I saw the submission.
The point. You have missed it. By a wide margin.
As Jim Morrison said... (Score:5, Insightful)
..."women seem wicked when you're unwanted."
Telling a bunch of people to "just stop" fails to address the underlying causes.
Geeks are frustrated because they don't have good luck with women. Rejection and loneliness results in the misogyny and creepiness lamented here. As a matter of mental self-defense, geeks decide that women are turned off by intelligence, and they (despite themselves) go around demanding that women should smarten-up and start finding intelligence sexy. Well, this is incorrect.
Women aren't turned off by intelligence. They are turned off by constantly being made to feel stupid. They are also turned off by bad social skills, bad physical health, and the inclination to play video games and study all day every day (rather than going out and doing something fun with friends).
If you want to get a real girlfriend, you are going to have to get over your sense of superiority, practice authentic humility, and be ready to give up a lot of your video-game time and study-time to instead go out on social events with a group of mutual friends, on a regular basis. Clean up your act, become what women want, and *then* you might get one. If you aren't willing to do this, then you have no business demanding that women start putting up with a bunch of stuff they don't like so they can have the privilege of being with you.
I'm not taking responsibility for Elliot Rodgers. (Score:3, Insightful)
First of all, let's point out the obvious: Rodgers killed twice as many men as women.
Which doesn't mean I'm saying violence against women isn't a serious problem, or that I don't care about the two women he killed. Gad are we really that simple-minded that it has to be one or the other? I'm only saying that Rodgers shouldn't be held up as THE paradigm for the way men treat women. Rodgers knew when he posted his manifesto that he was, in effect, writing his own obituary. He deliberately framed his future actions in full, cynical knowledge of society's sexism.
Let me make what should be an obvious point here: we shouldn't accept Rodgers' framing of his actions, for the simple reason he was a twisted person with a nasty agenda. Yes, his stated views on women were ugly, but going by his actions he hated *humanity* and chose targets of opportunity. He not only robbed James Hong, George Chen, David Wang and Christopher Michael-Martinez of collectively some two hundred years of lifespan. He successfully exploited our knee-jerk credulity so as to erase those kids from our consciousness as victims of his crimes.
As for "what is wrong with nerds?", that begs the question. Is there a problem with "nerds"? What is a "nerd" anyway?
The reason for media nerd chic is that feeling marginalized is ironically something most people can identify with. So is feeling emotionally vulnerable, and sometimes even isolated. And we all make regrettable and sometimes embarrassing mistakes in conducting our relationships with other people. But that doesn't mean we can't understand that "no means no", or that it's unpleasant and threatening to have unwanted attentions forced on you.
So if by "nerd" you mean "aggressively unpleasant person who blames other people for their reaction to his obnoxious behavior," well most of us aren't that kind of "nerd". The blockhead opinions of people like that have nothing to do with us.
If by "nerd" you mean "non-coformist who'd rather live with some degree of social marginalization than not act like himself," then you have to show us that this is tantamount to being an obnoxious and possibly violent twerp, which I don't think it is.
Those idiots who cheered Rodgers on are not my fault either. Maybe they're in part my problem, as they are a problem for everyone who has to live in the same society as they do. I may feel *concern* over their actions, but I don't feel a shred of guilt. Somebody else made them blockheads, not me.
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:0, Insightful)
Remember kids, it isn't sexist to stereotype men. In fact, you will get modded insightful if you attack men for pointing it out.
Re:Fuck you (Score:2, Insightful)
So you've never heard "I can't believe that a great, nice guy like me can't get girls because they all go out with assholes" from a nerd before?
Re:yet another one of these stories? (Score:1, Insightful)
>Men are not rapists. RAPISTS are rapists.
Even more relevant in light of that recent study showing that women are almost as likely to be rapists as men, but men are considerably less likely to report being assaulted.
[citation needed], or don't even bother trying because you made it up.
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:5, Insightful)
I did all of the above. Not murderously violent, but violent enough that I acted out in inappropriate ways.
It is safest for such men to consider *any* sexual contact outside of marriage to be rape- because it's certain that unless you have put a ring on that finger, any consent you think you have received will be revoked retroactively, and you'll be charged with rape anyway.
As for proof of a widespread pedophilia culture, I suggest you read this article analyzing the topic as it is treated in the DSM-V [huffingtonpost.com]
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:4, Insightful)
The article you linked has a ton of issues. The biggest beef I have with its claim that it sidetracks the conversation to say "not all men are like that' simply because some are. But the context of such discussions is as a "problem" that urgently needs addressing; in that case, whether the thing is common or extremely rare would make an enormous difference in how we approach it.
One might ask whether we should have a hashtag #StopWomenDrowningBabies or something; certainly the thing happens, so clearly this is an important discussion to have, right? Except that its quite rare, and while its bad, its not a "problem" (AFAIK) that we as a society need to (or realistically could) "fix".
I dont know what the statistics are on rape, or how big the problem is, nor do I really want to discuss that (because I am not equipped to do so). But if someone wants to come out and say "men need to stop raping" I think its appropriate to point out that this isnt a universal phenomenon and that "men" arent the "enemy"-- because thats how it very often comes across.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Insightful)
As the guy who tells other guys to stop being so damn idiotic, I'm sick and tired of all these articles stereotyping men as misogynistic animals.
Look, I'm actively fighting this problem (and it is a problem, nobody is saying otherwise), with you. So why are you so quick to group me with the monkeys in our society?
Seriously. I'm sick of these articles saying I'm a bad person, and I hate women, and I'm a pig, an animal, and a rapist who should be ashamed of my physical urges.
Please focus on the individual bad apples, instead of grouping them as "men".
Re:Yeah, but.... (Score:2, Insightful)
You are the exact reason it does.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:3, Insightful)
Please back up your assertions with some facts. I don't buy for a second that men are more likely to be the victims of violence, intimidation and other physical threats. Men are more likely to do all of those, but they are more likely aimed at women. Was was the last time you logged onto XBox live and didn't hear some called a pussy or a girl or a faggot or some other slur? You know what every one of those are? You are basically calling the person feminine which is only an insult if you believe men are superior to women. When was the last time you worried about being raped walking home at night? Or being roofied in a bar?
Yes, not all men are like this. But all women have to worry about it. That is the point of the #YesAllWomen tag. You may not be a rapist or a violent person, but women don't know that. Th best way to put it is let's say 1% of men are violent towards women (which is probably low). You claim women shouldn't assume you are because it is only 1%. I have a big bowl of M&Ms and only 1% of them are poisoned. I happily invite you to try some, since only 1% of them are poisoned. Are you going to eat any? No you are going to worry your ass off and not touch any of them. And that is what women live with every day.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:4, Insightful)
No, not trolling. Sorry, but there IS a grain of truth in geek misogyny. This toon is a humorous example:
http://www.geeksaresexy.net/20... [geeksaresexy.net]
Also, when was the last time that you saw a woman depicted in a video game that was less than a "C" cup? Sorry, but if you were to go back a few centuries and give a woman a sword and armor, I am pretty sure that the armor would cover more than about six square inches of her body. Sorry, but in video games, women are sex objects (Metroid is the one notable exception that I can think of). Even as protagonists, they will dress scantily, while standing next to a male character that is so covered in so much armor that you can only see his eyes.
Perhaps part of it is that women are, in general, under-represented in geek culture. Guys are attracted to girls, but there are damn few of them floating around in geek circles. So, they go from being "people" to becoming something closer to a "trophy."
So, to sum this up. (Score:4, Insightful)
Men, especially nerds, are horrible, mean, vicious people and all men should be treated as such at all times. Women, on the other hands, are always innocent victims of abuse, are always under threat, and must live their lives like they are about to be raped because men.
So, women, do us all a favor, and just stop. Stop interacting with men. Stop talking to men, stop dating men, stop having sex with men, stop marrying men. Just stop, because if you hate and fear men so much that is exactly what any sane person would do.
I am so fucking sick and tired of hearing how there is something intrinsically wrong with me and that I should be feared because I have a Y chromosome. Fuck you too. I haven't hit, let alone raped, any woman, ever. I have been hit three times by a woman and not once did I retaliate as I could have. I took it. But, if I had hit her back, I would have been the bad guy.
If women wouldn't reward the behavior of bad men, then there wouldn't be so many bad men, but, as we know, women love bad boys right up until that bad boy is bad to them. When that happens to a woman, she thinks back to all the bad men she has dated and concludes all men are bad because the problem couldn't possibly her and her choices.
Don't want to be abused or get raped? Don't be friends with or date immature, over-entitled, sociopathic bad boys with a history of hurting other people including women. Start looking at character instead of abs, or clothes, or height or cars. Stop going to clubs, getting wasted, and giving your number to that hot guy in the sick shirt, let alone banging him in a one night stand. Find a better place to meet guys or shut the fuck up about how horrible the men you fuck are because that is you having shallow and/or bad taste.
Oh, and when you get drunk and then go home and fuck a guy, you weren't raped. You were irresponsible. If you can't keep your panties on and legs closed when you get drunk, don't get drunk.
Re:Yeah, but.... (Score:5, Insightful)
The difference is that those groups aren't as self-blaming as nerds are, and they aren't so quick to take the bait. It's like if you gathered a bunch of guys in a room and shouted "misogynist!" and the nerd amongst them said, "I'm sorry!" even though he didn't really do anything.
Re:Stupid Blame Game (Score:5, Insightful)
Why not read TFA?
Chu is using the opportunity that mysogyny is in the spotlight to discuss the problem of mysogyny in his own community, through his own personal experience.
He is not saying that Rodger is a nerd.
Seriously, read TFA, it's a thoughftul piece.
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:5, Insightful)
It is safest for such men to consider *any* sexual contact outside of marriage to be rape- because it's certain that unless you have put a ring on that finger, any consent you think you have received will be revoked retroactively, and you'll be charged with rape anyway.
Although, "putting a ring on that finger" doesn't automatically give you perpetual, on-demand sex privileges. It's always her (or his) body, not yours - regardless of any expensive jewelry you shelled out for. (Just saying...)
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:4, Insightful)
"ItÃ(TM)s a standard frustrated angry geeky guy manifesto ..."
You hang around a weird/scary bunch of angry geeky guys. The "manifesto" becomes far-out well before the murder-intent plans.
What planet do you live on? This is a very common thing among nerdy guys, though slightly less so with the younger generation thankfully.
Why does every single discussion about women in tech immediately result in a bunch of denials, followed by pats on the back (upvotes) as dudes congratulate other dudes on how much of a not-problem there is?
From one white male nerd to the rest of the community: Come on, you can't be serious? Women are treated equally to men in tech? Really? Really?
The evidence is all over. You can see it on twitter, in forum posts, or just by asking any of the female geeks you may know.
To claim otherwise is to endorse a lie. If you've helped clean up your little corner of the world, excellent and good on you! But please don't pretend geek/nerd culture has no issues with women.
* As to what happens in other communities, who gives a shit? That is irrelevant. I'm concerned about our community. We should have better standards, especially those of us who were bullied as kids before the dotcom boom when being geeky started to be seen as at least not completely aberrant behavior.
Re:As Jim Morrison said... (Score:5, Insightful)
Geeks are frustrated because they don't have good luck with women.
Introverts don't have good luck with the ladies, regardless of how geeky they are. As you correctly note, making new friends (platonic and otherwise) requires putting yourself out there, which is very difficult for an introverted personality to do.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So, to sum this up. (Score:1, Insightful)
This is the most childish post I've seen on this story yet.
I am so fucking sick and tired of hearing how there is something intrinsically wrong with me and that I should be feared because I have a Y chromosome.
Objection your honor, asserts facts not in evidence! No one said there was anything wrong with you or that you should be feared. The whole point is women can't know a-priori who the good guys are and the penalty is being raped or killed. If only 1-2% of the guys are the bad apples (probably a bit low), then in a conference of 5000 men there are 50-100 who would do her harm. Do you honestly even give a second thought to someone punching you in the face or stabbing you at a conference? Didn't think so.
Don't want to be abused or get raped? Don't be friends with or date immature, over-entitled, sociopathic bad boys
Seriously? You mashed the keyboard and clicked post to share this bit of drivel with the world?
Get the chip off your shoulder man.
Know what all the nice girls are doing? Quietly trying to navigate the hurdles of life and getting by. Same as the real nice guys (not the fakes who pretend not to be interested in a woman so they can ingratiate themselves).
DaveV1.0, you are part of the problem.
From one male nerd to another: not acceptable.
Re:As Jim Morrison said... (Score:4, Insightful)
study all day every day
ready to give up a lot of your ... study-time
I don't think that word means what you think it does. In my experience, nerd culture is more about cramming random science-y trivia facts into your skull than it is the dedicated pursuit of knowledge. Might as well say I study the back of the cereal box every morning. (Spoiler alert, they're still after his lucky charms.)
Also, it seems like there's a bit stereotyping underlying your post. Guess what, men are also turned off by constantly being made to feel stupid. They are also turned off by bad social skills, bad physical health, and the inclination to play video games and study all day every day (rather than going out and doing something fun with friends).
I don't think the dividing line here is men/women. I don't know that it's even geeks/non-geeks. Maybe it's closer to extroverts/introverts. Really what it seems like to me is that a minority of people who are dedicated to their hobbies are looked down on by people who pursue those hobbies only casually (or not at all.) Model train enthusiasts are going to have the same problems as video game geeks if they don't throw a little moderation into their lives. It's just that the latter is more common.
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:1, Insightful)
Sincerely, go fuck yourself.
You're as bad as the people who say, "Do we have to talk about gun control now, after that recent mass shooting?"
This is a conversation that's long overdue, and it needs to happen. If you want to class these people as trolls - these people who face discrimination every day, who are afraid to speak out on the internet because of what happens to women who do that, who deal with these creeps on buses and trains and in alleys day in and day out, who have a one in three chance of facing some form of abuse in their lives - then I'm ashamed to share the planet with you.
Go away and let the adults talk. We have a problem and people like you are making it worse.
Re:Ground down (Score:2, Insightful)
And this is one of my major gripes with modern western women: There is actual REAL BAD SHIT happening to women in this world. However, it's not happening in any 1st world country, but ya'll want to talk about patriarchy, the boy's club, and the horriblenogoodverybadthings you have to put up with when in reality you are the SAFEST, LEAST OPPRESSED, MOST ENTITLED group of females to ever grace this planet.
And the shit thing is, even after all that progress, they still have to put up with you.
Re:As Jim Morrison said... (Score:4, Insightful)
Its all very true, but the reverse is also true. Its not just men that aren't hooking up. There are far too many women unable or unwilling to get to know men outside of their comfort zone and will often not connect with the right guys now or ever. They will still date the same douche bag cheating assholes they always have becasuse that's all they've ever dealt with, and maybe they finally get the chance to meet a good guy and either he doesn't meet her impossibly high standards, or else she just thinks he's gay, or weak, or whatever.
Are pooly socialized men bad at dating? YES. Are poorly socialized women bad at dating? YES. Next topic.
Re:As Jim Morrison said... (Score:3, Insightful)
Women aren't turned off by intelligence. They are turned off by constantly being made to feel stupid. They are also turned off by bad social skills, bad physical health, and the inclination to play video games and study all day every day (rather than going out and doing something fun with friends).
I can understand where he's coming from. Most women I've met fall under one of two categories, are smart and already taken by a significant other that they've known for decades, or boyfriend hopping because they want a "fun" guy which means they are not responsible and not marriage or father material.
My guess is he's talking about the second type. They complain about how all the guys they date turn out to be jerks, but they don't give a geek/nerd the time of day because they're not socially "fun". In my experience, many of these women seem to just need attention because of a lack of confidence in themselves. They don't like spending time with family and like to get drunk and party or talk about how horrible their life is.
Maybe if they stayed home and found some video games that are fun to play with their socially awkward boyfriend, they'd be more happy.
Re:Yeah, but.... (Score:2, Insightful)
You missed the point. No one is saying it is or is not any place else, what they are saying is in the 'nerd community' any time someone tries to address it people like you come out and say it's not worth discussing because it happens elsewhere to.
Which is pretty pathetic.
Oh, you anecdote contrary to what everyone else agree sis going on isn't the same. well then I guess that shows us.
and What it shows us is that you are a self centered person that can barely survive above rote thinking.
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:4, Insightful)
Did you not bother to read the article? Also, if you don't know what the statistics are on rape, hey, you could... look them up. And if you don't want to discuss these issues why bother to post anything?
Again, did you read the article? 'Cause one of the points of the article is that women know not all men are rapists, so you being defensive about it doesn't help anyone, least of all you. Maybe if you shut yer yap long enough to listen to the issues you'd be "equipped" to have a discussion.
Re:As Jim Morrison said... (Score:2, Insightful)
"Geeks are frustrated because they don't have good luck with women."
false. please stop spreading that crap.
"Rejection and loneliness results in the misogyny "
no. bad social skills and a lack of empathy do.
" creepiness "
bad hygiene is most of that.
"geeks decide that women are turned off by intelligence,"
nope.
You need to hang around with people who like the things you like. OR sue a special dating service.
Also reading up on person skills and learning to think of others.
The issue here is every time someone try's to address the issue, and punch of self centered ass hats scream "Not Me!" instead of discussing the issue. If its a women., then it immediately escalates to her getting death threats.
Think about that.
Woman says she is getting harassed, then she gets death threats.
It is not rare, it happen everytime. and it isn't just a tine percentage, it shockingly large.
We are better then that. I have a daughter who is a nerd. I have to prepare her for the onslaught of crap she will get that men do not get.
What do you tell a 13 year old girl to do when going to someone about being harassed means she has to be in fear for her life?
We. Can. Do. Better.
Re:forever actually (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Insightful)
But throwing one group under the bus to stand up for another still results in just as many people getting hit by the bus.
The thing that all these finger-wagging missives fail to take into account is that masculinity, like femininity, is a social construct. There are underlying biological differences between the male and female populations, but there are also broad distributions of individual characteristics, and the gender binary model attempts to impose a crisp, discontinuous division between "masculine" and "feminine".
In doing so, it does violence to anyone who fails to fit very well with the nominal masculine or feminine ideals of the society they happen to find themselves in.
The feminist movement has done a reasonably good job, more-or-less, in pointing out how these forces operate to shape women's lives.
We have done a lousy job of appreciating that the same kinds of forces shape men's lives as well, so we get these ridiculous claims that individual men are creatures of perfect agency, utterly unaffected by the social forces that are attempting to bludgeon them into good little emotionless soldiers (or whatever your society's favoured model of masculinity is at the moment). Telling profoundly damaged, struggling individuals to "stop whining" and so on is the opposite of what they need. They need to be told: "I feel you pain, but I hate your behaviour..."
The utter lack of compassion for men, and the complete lack of awareness of how the social construction of masculinity affects them, is one of the most depressing things about the current discourse on these issues.
None of this excuses individuals who behave badly, but if we want men to get better, we have to stop failing them as completely and systematically as we are now. We have to start valuing their lives, their experiences, their reality, rather than simply hitting them harder with various real and rhetorical hammers when they refuse to fit into the socially constructed masculine role that has been prepared for them.
Re:As Jim Morrison said... (Score:4, Insightful)
Spot on. When you listen to Rodger's manifesto it's clear he has no real idea what women like in men, what makes them want to date and have sex with them. He considers himself the "perfect gentleman", but never talks about his good friendships with women or socialising with them. In all the stories in the media about him you never hear about him having close female friends. Big surprise, if some random guy who mostly keeps himself to himself and you know little about asks you out one day chances are the response won't be yes.
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:2, Insightful)
Why does every single discussion about women in tech immediately result in a bunch of denials, followed by pats on the back (upvotes) as dudes congratulate other dudes on how much of a not-problem there is?
Your post could have closed out the thread. Because that's exactly what it turned into (unsurprisingly).
Re:Yeah, but.... (Score:4, Insightful)
people like you come out and say it's not worth discussing
I didn't say it wasn't worth discussing. I said it was silly to discuss the "problem" in the absence of any evidence that the "problem" actually exists. These discussions always start with the presumption that nerds are all a bunch of women haters, yet base that presumption on an anecdote about a woman that was groped a few years ago by some jerk at a game conference. Sure, some nerds are sexist jerks. Some are also racists, child abusers, pedophiles, and even murders. Should we also discuss how racism, child abuse and murder are part of "nerd culture"? These are not "nerd problems", they are "human problems", and should be discussed as such. Misogyny is no different. It has nothing to do with "nerds" or "nerd culture" specifically. If you have some evidence that says otherwise, I am happy to hear it.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Insightful)
There are plenty of non-ripped male characters in games. Often you don't even see your own avatar in an FPS. Take GTA for example, all the protagonists have been fairly normal looking guys. Half Life had a scrawny scientist. Even things like Call of Duty has guys who look fit, as if they were part of some kind of military unit, but not ridiculous muscle-man like and always clothed head to toe in armour and combat fatigues.
The portrayal of men in all forms of media is a problem, but it's nothing like as bad as the portrayal of women. For me the worst ones are female scientists. If the scientist was a man they would probably be older, definitely average looking. The female scientist is always young and hot, because having a world class mind on it's own isn't enough.
Re:forever actually (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: Yeah, but.... (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem isn't misogyny itself, on an individual basis, any more than the problem is invidualized misandry. The problem is when such hate is institutionalized, and I think it's arguable that institutionalized misogyny is at its lowest point in decades. If you start trying to tell individuals what's right and wrong to think, then you are dangerously close to Orwellian thoughtcrime for my tastes. What matters is how people act, which is where any protections need to be placed.
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:5, Insightful)
So let's talk. The boy clearly shows signs of blatant narcissism. In the first couple pages he brags about having visited 4 countries by the time he was 3, as if any child that age could gain anything meaningful from that experience. He goes on to describe a facile and warped world view, including how much joy he took in excluding his arch rival (a boy) from his 6th birthday party, classifying being denied entry to a roller coaster ride at 7 because of his height as "an injustice", and overall demonstrates a clear love of power, money, and status in settings that have no bearing on gender whatsoever. Where's the misogyny there?
He talks at length about how he refused to get a "low class retail job" because he's "an intellectual who's destined for greatness." He decides he'll be a screenwriter for about 2 weeks until he realizes they don't make much money, and then bails on it. He takes a college class, but quits halfway through because he's physically disgusted by the site of a happy couple sitting together every day. He took a janitorial job out of desperation, then quite after 5 hours because it was so beneath him. Where's the misogyny there?
There's a lot of misogynistic expression as well, of course. At one point he tells his mother that she should "sacrifice her happiness to secure his future" by marrying a rich guy she only wants to date. And yes, there's a lot of ranting about how women ignore him. But if you actually read even a little bit of it, it becomes very clear that this is a fundamentally delusional person no matter what gender he's talking about.
If you actually look at what he says, it's clear that he feels entitled to EVERYTHING. Not just women, but money, power, respect, friendship, and luxury. He's clearly not able to connect well with other people, and he basically viewed women as a prop in the perfect life of adoration that he felt he was owed. Is that misogynistic? Certainly. But taken as a whole his delusion was no more misogynistic than it was hateful of the entire human race indiscriminate of gender. Hell, he even killed twice as many men as women.
So then why is it that the outcry over this tragedy has immediately become slanted towards "violence against women!! men are terrible!!" The kid had horrific attitudes toward literally everybody around him, and was clearly an entitled little shit in every aspect of his life. In his world view all women were sluts and all men were intellectual nitwits and brutes, and NONE of them deserved to live if they got in his way. He outright said as much. Yet the social reaction to this not only emphasizes the effect it has on women, it actively EXCLUDES people from talking about the effect it has on men, and implicitly tries to lump all men in as perpetrators of the distorted mindset that Elliot Rodger had toward the world. It's divisive and bigoted, and frankly it's fucking disgusting.
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:5, Insightful)
* Snip lots of unrelated, pointless crap *
If you believe that's what's happening, I can only assume your reading comprehension skills are pretty terrible. Talking about misogyny in no way excludes you from talking about how his beliefs are harmful to men, too. In fact, I've seen several women say as much -- that this tragedy proves that misogyny hurts men, too.
And if you think that it was his narcissism to blame more than his misogyny, I'm not sure what manifesto you read. I read the one where he said this:
And this:
And this:
His narcissism is sexually driven, to my eye, and a result of his deeply held belief that women owe him sex because he's better. In other words, the problem is as much his inability to grant agency to women as his narcissism.
And if you think that talking about this in some way is bigoted against men, then frankly you're part of the problem. Just like that other guy who said there's no point in having this conversation because people already agree with us, you're completely oblivious to the problems that are right in front of you, and you can't see past your own defensiveness when someone tries to explain it to you.
To you, I say, shut up and really try to listen, and don't assume it's all about you. Are you really so narcissistic that you believe that these women who are speaking out are talking about you?
On top of that, you've completely missed the point that most of the women I've read are making -- that the alpha male culture that encourages misogyny is the cause of this, not the misogyny itself. We raise men to be narcissistic and misogynistic and to be "alpha males," and then we're surprised when they shoot people or rape women or beat the shit out of the gay kid in class. There's a reason the vast, vast majority of mass shooters are men, and it's not that women don't know how to shoot straight.
There was a really great video where Aron Ra talks about the effects of this poisonous culture on boys here [youtube.com]. I'd recommend you watch it before you spend any more time accusing people of being bigoted against men just because they decided to talk about women's problems for a change.