UK Seeks To Hold Terrorism Trial In Secret 240
hazeii (5702) writes in with news about a secret trial set to take place in England. 'A major terrorism trial is set to be held entirely in secret for the first time in British legal history in an unprecedented departure from the principles of open justice, the court of appeal has heard. The identities of the two defendants charged with serious terror offences are being withheld from the public, and the media are banned from being present in court to report the forthcoming trial against the two men, known only as AB and CD.'
Secret trial in UK "first in legal history" (Score:2, Insightful)
Formally, UK legal history goes back to the coronation of Richard 1 in 1189. Practically, it goes back to the 8th century or so. This is (one of) the few trials in camera in the last 100 years, that's all.
Welcome back to the ABC days (Score:5, Insightful)
Colonel 'B'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
The UK court system has reverted to 1977 and the Official Secrets Act 1911 to try and stop the press from reporting again. All this has been tested in the UK press and legal system before. Secret courts did not save the GCHQ from Time Out article "The Eavesdroppers".
If the case is so "major" and is legally sound, let the press in to see the UK justice system at work. The same issues where faced over Ireland, UK gov staff working for the Soviet Union, the first super grass efforts (well connected informers getting reduced time).
How a secret national security trial will legally challenged in open court after a conviction for the tactic of "major terrorism" will be interesting.
Re:Sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
My theory is because currently terrorism still has a bit of 'awe' factor behind it. Treating these cases like any other case would diminish that. The emperor has no clothes, and they are terrified at letting us see what precisely is going on, and what we're giving up civil liberties over.
Terrorism is the vehicle by which the authoritarian elements in society (on both sides of the pond) can use to gain more power and exert control over the populace. Since 9/11 (and I'm sure 7/7) the state has granted itself more power at the expense of personal privacy.
Allowing us to see that in reality it's not an extraordinary case, that plotting to murder people over ideology shouldn't be treated any differently than plotting to murder people indiscriminately -- takes that avenue away from them.
Secret courts are the stuff of dictatorships (Score:5, Insightful)
And the global dictatorship is slowly being pieced together.
And citizens do nothing, amazingly. People with any knowledge of history should be scared shitless - I know I am.
And soon it'll be too late to do anything about it...
Re:Dear UK (Score:5, Insightful)
How do you know it's not a case so important and transcendental that absolute secrecy is required to protect British society as a whole?
We only know it's a terrorism trial.
Maybe AB downloaded a Justin Bieber song. Maybe CD whistled a Disney tune during a bus trip without paying the representation fees. Maybe AB is brown skinned!
See? Now I'm afraid. I hope they have already been executed, just to be sure. Or sent to an american torture camp, to be exchanged for the next marine that's abducted by a pirate arab communist hacker terro-jihadist.
Re:Secret courts are the stuff of dictatorships (Score:5, Insightful)
People are doing something, they're voting against the main parties.
The problem is in the process they're leaning towards the lures of the far right like UKIP with it's populist lies.
I find it incredible that the three main parties are running round like headless chickens screaming "Oh my god, we're losing votes to the far right, how do we stop this disease in our society!" yet remain completely oblivious to the fact that this sort of shit is exactly why people are flocking away from them en-masse.
I want them to change course not simply because things like this sicken me as they did during Brown era authoritarianism, but because the fact they're pushing people into the arms of the far right is even more disturbing.
Re:Dear UK (Score:5, Insightful)
I enjoy your sarcasm, but I will still answer your 1st question as if you were serious.
How do you know it's not a case so important and transcendental that absolute secrecy is required to protect British society as a whole?
Because the system on which our liberty and freedom is based is more important than some guys setting of a bomb, no matter how large the attack.
We just cannot - under any circumstance - accept a situation that a government can capture, try and imprison people without ever having to be accountable for those actions.
I could accept a situation where trial is postponed because of ongoing investigations against others, but the trial must be public. Heck, we (= the West) have been fighting regimes that did this in the past, saying we had to liberate the people from the oppression, etc. etc., and now we're doing it ourselves? Does not compute.
Re:Dear UK (Score:5, Insightful)
First it's once, then twice, and before you know it every single trial will be private. I still don't buy the whole terrorist defense we slap that tag on pretty much everything. Slap on the terrorist tag and you can pretty much ignore some unlucky fuckers basic human rights whether they;re guilty or not.
I don't care if it was Adolf Hitler, it needs to be public because this one fucked up precedent. You do not want to let this happen unless you're fine with your kids and their kids dealing with it.
Major Not (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Maybe forr once they really have to keep it sec (Score:5, Insightful)
And, pray tell, how do you know the accused are terrorists? That the government has clear evidence that they are terrorists? Or that there are any credible witnesses at all?
You don't. In truth, you don't know anything at all. Because the whole proceedings are secret and hidden from you.
The government could drag you before the same secret court tomorrow, and none would be wiser. Think about it before you so enthusiastically throw away your rights. Secret trials because of "terrorism" can be used to hide many sins and subvert inconvenient rights.
There is accountability (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
That is not the problem of a secret trial. The real problem of a secret trial is the presumption of guilt and the defendants must prove their innocence. That presumption of guilt is basically being "LOUDLY" and "PUBLICLY" declared tainting all possible juries. The trial has to be secret because they are guilty and 'er' 'um' because they are guilty. The judge in upholding the secrecy has publicly declared their guilt. So the trial is not longer a trial of guilt or innocence simply a secret declaration of an pre-agreed punishment to be handed out. The whole point of public trials to to force government to publicly prove it's claim because we don't fucking believe them until they do so and every time government fails to prove it's case it is because it is lying.
Re:Dear UK (Score:5, Insightful)
Most Muslims in the UK are quite happy with the way things are. You really think they want to turn us into Pakistan?
The 'UK School Trojan Horse Plot' is some hyped up nonsense based on a fake letter. Reminds me of the fake 'elders of Zion' hoax that still causes grief to Jews.
Some nutters blew up a couple of buses 10 years ago and as a result of peple like tyou playing into their hands by over-reacting we have awful legislation like this.
Islamic Extremism is not surging in the UK and don't bandy about your 'We' as if you represent me you ignorant arsehole.
I think it is mad cow disease. (Score:4, Insightful)
Seriously. The last 20 years have seen British political life descend into the level of parody. Are we going to find out in another 20 years that the entire political class starting with Tony Blair was infected with some disease that ate their brains?
By the way, it is not the case that England has never had secret trials before. There used to be the Star Chamber [wikipedia.org], (prior to 1398 to 1641) :
That did not end will, and neither will this.