Scotland Could Become Home To Britain's First Spaceport 151
An anonymous reader writes Scotland could take a giant leap for mankind by becoming the home of Britain's first spaceport. UK Government ministers will announce on Tuesday eight potential sites for a base for sending rockets and tourists into orbit. RAF bases at Kinloss and Leuchars are believed to be among contenders for the spaceport, which would open in 2018 and be Britain's answer to Cape Canaveral. Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander said: "I am delighted that the government is pushing forward with its ambitious plans to open a spaceport in the UK by 2018. Spaceports will be key to us opening up the final frontier of commercial space travel. Scotland has a proud association with space exploration. We celebrated Neil Armstrong's Scottish ancestry when he became the first man on the Moon and only last week an amazing Scottish company was responsible for building the UK Space Agency's first satellite. The UK space industry is one of our great success stories and I am sure there will be a role for Scotland to play in the future."
Rather far north. (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't they try putting launching sites further south.
1. They are warmer and you don't need to de-ice your craft.
2. Uses less fuel as the earth is spinning faster
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Re:Rather far north. (Score:5, Interesting)
It's of a lot of use if you're aiming to leave earth orbit though, for interplanetary probes. A site this far north is really good for polar orbits and that's about it. Even the ISS isn't that heavily inclined - you could get there from Scotland, but it'd use more fuel than a launch from further south. That's why the ISS is supplied from Guiana Space Center: It's in Europe*, so politically suitable, while still being close to the equator.
*It's in Europe the same way Hawaii is in the USA. It may be geographically remote, but legally and politically it's still France.
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I always thought the British should launch from St Helena to be closer to the equator.
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Nah mate, Ascension [wikipedia.org] is closer to the equator and already has ESA facilities.
...and pretty much the coolest name ever for a place being used for space operations.
Re: Rather far north. (Score:4, Insightful)
For that matter, Scotland might not be Britain by the time it's built.
Re: Rather far north. (Score:5, Insightful)
For that matter, Scotland might not be Britain by the time it's built.
1. If Scotland votes to leave the UK, then the spaceport will NOT be built. The whole point of this proposal is to encourage the Scots to stay, so they get all the spaceport jobs and prestige.
2. If Scotland votes to stay in the UK, then the spaceport will likely still not be built. Once the referendum is over, there will no longer be any political reason to continue, and technically, Scotland is about the dumbest place in the world to build a spaceport. It is way too far north, and is due west of major population areas in northern Europe.
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It's nice to see that somebody has a grip on British politics.
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Colonies are part of the parent nation now?
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I bet not. They might see Frances colonies as part of France, but I'm willing to bet it goes no further.
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Colonies are part of the parent nation now?
Hawaii became a territory of the US in 1889, then a state in 1959. Guiana is an Oversees department [wikipedia.org] of France, and not a colony.
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Just like Algeria was.
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Re:Rather far north. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, but these are politicians performing a carrot and stick maneuver on Scotland.
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Its worth noting that the politician that announced it comes from a Scottish constituency...
Re:Rather far north. (Score:4, Insightful)
It's even more worth noting that there's a plebicite on Scottish independence coming up very soon.
Re:Rather far north. (Score:4, Interesting)
I wonder if such an obvious bribe will have bring people over to the "no" side, or if it will just make them even more disgusted the Westminster government and vote "yes".
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Re:Rather far north. (Score:4, Insightful)
Indeed - and having stayed there, I can confirm the weather around Kinloss is usually awful.
Sounds like a "make work" effort at this very remote location. At least if something blows up on the pad or shortly after launch there's not much around to damage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R... [wikipedia.org]
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Re:Rather far north. (Score:5, Insightful)
It gets better, in 2 months Scotland votes to decide if it wants to leave the UK. does anyone think that a site will be chosen that might suddenly no longer be part of the UK?
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Doesn't this seem like something from Yes Minister or Yes Prime Minister. A "spaceport" in Scotland...
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It's Britain, you can only go so much further south and still be building in your own country. ;)
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Because both Leuchars and Kinloss are such cold spots that you regularly need to do deicing. Living just a couple of miles/kilometres from Leuchars I can tell you now deicing would be less of a problem than at Cape Canaveral.
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A proper kilt... (Score:2)
A proper kilt...will keep the ice off the space craft.
No "true Scotsman" rocket would launch without one!
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While Kinloss is certainly quite far north, you have to account for the warming effect of the ocean and particularly the gulf stream. Scotland is more wet than cold as a result, with the average low [eldoradoco...eather.com] being above freezing year round.
I don't know how big an issue cloud cover and rain would be, but the temperature associated with latitude is probably less of an issue. The latitude itself isn't far off that of the Kodiak Launch Complex [wikipedia.org] in Alaska.
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Equatorial orbits are aligned close to the equator. The most useful one are geosynchronous (slight inclination so its ground track is a small figure-8 called an amalemma [wikipedia.org]) or geostationary (zero inclination so they stay above the same spot on the equator). The satellites stay above the same general spot on earth, so are always "visible" to ground statio
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Because Florida has more distance to travel and Canada less.
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But that subset, by and large, does not post here.
Try posting something about Climate Change and get back to us on that.
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Pre-2000. Slashdot, had a lot less to do with anything political. It had more to do about Linux.
Then what happened was the Bush Administration came in. and the Liberal Biased Slashdot user got vocal, because their political ideals are not being met, because someone was in power who had different political ideals. So they went off Linux and more and more on political rants.
When this started we had a bunch of users dropping Slashdot and going to Digg. But Digg went downhill much faster then Slashdot, but Sl
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Design the rockets/flights right and you could drop all your first stages right on Paris. Double plus good!
Please don't leave the UK! (Score:5, Insightful)
Hardly viable... (Score:5, Insightful)
Most of the commercial launches want equatorial orbits, and for that you want to launch as near to the equator as possible. As far as polar orbits for research satellites are concerned there is already the Kiruna site, which is fully equipped and at a better location for monitoring polar orbits. Polar orbits for secret missions? Countries involved in this will want to launch from their own turf. And space tourism? Does not exist yet.
Re:Hardly viable... (Score:4, Insightful)
Secret missions possibly. The UK government might want a domestic launch site, rather than have to entrust France with all their secret missions.
Or it might be, as many speculate, pure politics: This isn't coming from down London, this is being pushed by Scottish politicians. A big, expensive, high-tech project like that could do much to showcase Scotland as an economic success, stressing both to their own citizens and the rest of the world that they don't need the rest of the UK. There's a strong emphesis on the article on spaceplanes, a form of commercial aeronautics still in the development stage - having one of the first useable facilities would be a great prestige.
Re:Hardly viable... (Score:4, Insightful)
If the PR renders are anything to go by, you can pretty much take an existing airfield, knock down any ugly buildings that the media might see, and replace them with cool, ultramodern equivalents, and you've got a spaceport.
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... they also have ground requirements much closer to 'airport with atypically long runway' ...
If that's what they need then the Irish government should look at creating a spaceport near Shannon, which has a gigantic runway,suitable both for the frequent US military stopovers to and from the Middle East, and (I was told) for the Shuttle, should an emergency ever have arisen requiring a landing in Europe if Edwards or elsewhere was unavailable. But that may just be local pride :-)
Re:Hardly viable... (Score:4, Interesting)
In that case the normal move is to place it in Australia. Lots of space, stable government and strong social, economic and political ties. As for secrecy already a part of 5 Eyes, so not a problem there, likely when it comes to 5 Eyes they likely could shift a large percentage of that cost to that alliance, so Australia, Canada, New Zealand UK and US would all chip in to fund it. Reason why Scotland, straight up carrot and stick for the independence vote. How will the Scots receive it, likely pretty badly as a straight up carrot and stick scam.
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or a Commonwealth site with open land to pick up the parts after a test/error.
e.g. Woomera Test Range in Australia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W... [wikipedia.org]
As for spy equipment the UK has been happy to use Ariane/Titan
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Scotland Has Total Freedom ??
Cynically I expect (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Cynically I expect (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Cynically I expect (Score:5, Funny)
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But it's being pushed by Scottish politicians. I still think it's politics, but for the other side: It's a way for Scotland to demonstrate the have high-tech capabilities too, and are more than just an outpost of England.
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But it's being pushed by Scottish politicians. I still think it's politics, but for the other side: It's a way for Scotland to demonstrate the have high-tech capabilities too, and are more than just an outpost of England.
It doesn't sound like it, from TFA:
Ministers want to establish the UK spaceport by 2018 - the first of its kind outside of the US.
Eight aerodromes have been shortlisted and Scotland has six of the potential locations.
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Scotland is closer to the dark side of the moon, so the Space-Nazis will bomb Edinburgh first?
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Cynically, I think it has more to do with distracting from the £1Bn in private military spending the government's going to announce at the same conference.
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Space-port must always be passed to the left, just the same as Earth-port
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No, the distilled malt barley drink is called "whisky" if it is made in Scotland, or "whiskey" if it is made elsewhere in the world.
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Given that neither Leuchars or Kinloss are in the Hebrides I am not quite sure what this is supposed to mean. They are also both pre-exisiting military bases with runways that are now disused.
Must vote remain underlings (Score:1)
Braveheart would not approve.
Re:Must vote remain underlings (Score:5, Interesting)
If they would only be good little subjects and vote to remain part of Britain so England can still pretend to be an imperial power?
No, they are free to, you know, pay for it themselves if they vote no rather than yes. No one will attempt to stop and independent Scotland building a spaceport with it's newly minted Caledonian Dollars or whatever currency they end up on.
In the mean time, do you expect Parliament to simply act as if scotland is already not part of the UK? I suspect you'd be whiny about that too if it happened.
Or do you expect the UK as a whole to basically put large infrastructure on hold because a small fraction of the population eant to seceed?
So far, the best reason for a yes vote is because the "West Lothian Question" is blatantly unfair and undemocratic, but since it goes in Scotland's favour, I've not heard a peep out of that crowd about it.
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In the mean time, do you expect Parliament to simply act as if scotland is already not part of the UK?
Well, they could wait two months to find out if it will remain part of the UK before making grandiose announcements. You know, so it doesn't look like a bribe and has some credibility.
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Well, they could wait two months to find out if it will remain part of the UK before making grandiose announcements. You know, so it doesn't look like a bribe and has some credibility.
Where do you draw the line? One month? Two? Four? Eight? Sixteen?
Precisely how long should the remaining 91% of the population delay the running of the country to satisfy something like 4.5%?
And are you sure it's a bribe? It's more of a maybe than a promise. Should the UK Pariliament pretend that Scotland never receives the be
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Precisely how long should the remaining 91% of the population delay the running of the country to satisfy something like 4.5%?
Well, since the delay would have only been two months, I'd say at least two months. Considering it's a long term project and a short delay loses us almost nothing, and would actually have saved us time and money spent looking at Scottish sites which may not be available in the near future I'd say that's a reasonable thing to do.
Should the UK Pariliament pretend that Scotland never receives the benefit of large projects (e.g. the two aircraft carriers, the proposed endpoint of HS2, a bunch of milirary bases and so on) in order to artificially benifit the YES camp? Would that be fair or equally biased?
Interesting you should mention those things. The SNP has said they would still work with the rest of the UK on HS2. The UK government has threatened to take away all ship building, w
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Well, since the delay would have only been two months, I'd say at least two months. Considering it's a long term project and a short delay loses us almost nothing, and would actually have saved us time and money spent looking at Scottish sites which may not be available in the near future I'd say that's a reasonable thing to do.
Perhaps, that seems somewhatarbitrary though. The disruption will be so huge, people seem to be continuing business as usual on the assumption that the vote will be NO.
Interesting yo
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Students from Scotland get free tuition. Students from other EU countries get free tuition. Students from other parts of the UK and from outside the EU have to pay for tuition.
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So far, the best reason for a yes vote is because the "West Lothian Question" is blatantly unfair and undemocratic, but since it goes in Scotland's favour, I've not heard a peep out of that crowd about it.
Well, I have now. The SNP list this as a reson for independence. I still think it's the best reason, though I think there are better alternatives.
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Bleh. If that's all you know about it I'd keep quiet and stick to your areas of competence.
Care to point out any times where Alex Salmond (or anyone else from that party) have publicly declared that their behaviour in executing such undemocratic power is reprehensible and it willbe for the greater good when that power is given up?
Or are you claiming that that's the only thing I know about the entire issue of independence? If the latter, then don't be a fool. Just because I have highlighted the best issue in
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Bleh. If that's all you know about it I'd keep quiet and stick to your areas of competence.
Care to point out any times where Alex Salmond (or anyone else from that party) have publicly declared that their behaviour in executing such undemocratic power is reprehensible and it willbe for the greater good when that power is given up?
Or are you claiming that that's the only thing I know about the entire issue of independence? If the latter, then don't be a fool. Just because I have highlighted the best issue in favour of "yes" doesn't mean I know nothing about the rest of them.
I CAN!.. the Scottish National Party DO NOT VOTE ON ANY MATTERS NOT PERTAINING TO SCOTLAND IN WESTMINSTER! .... So.. care to actually state something that isn't patently and provably false?
This is a long standing policy and their response to the West Lothian as posed by Tam Dalyell.
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I CAN!.. the Scottish National Party DO NOT VOTE ON ANY MATTERS NOT PERTAINING TO SCOTLAND IN WESTMINSTER!
Oh you are correct. Apparently I was mistaken about this one. It was Labour not the SNP guilty of that particular farce. Consider my previous post retracted.
I still think the best reason for a YES vote is to answer the West Lothian Question, however. While the SNP may have a backbone in this regard, Labour certainly do not (the other parties have a small enough representation for it not to matter as mu
This is Stage 2 (Score:1)
Political background (Score:5, Insightful)
Relax, everyone. This is a non-story; it isn't going to happen, and no-one seriously expects it to.
We're having a referendum in September on whether to separate from the UK and become an independent nation. The UK government has woken up - very late - to the realisation that it's quite likely to lose, and consequently will also lose its only nuclear submarine base, 90% of its oil revenue, and probably its permanent seat on the UN security council. Consequently they're panicking and offering us all sorts of unlikely bribes. The spaceport won't happen because
So relax. The fact that there's no money and no commercial use for it, and that we're too far from the equator, doesn't matter; no-one seriously intends to build it. It's a media stunt, pure and simple. It isn't going to happen.
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that it's quite likely to lose
You appear to know something that the opinion polls don't. What is it?
probably its permanent seat on the UN security council
Where did you pull this nonsense from?
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"Quite likely to lose"? In what uninverse? Latest polls show "Yes" trailing by over ten points.
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Indeed, now what are you going to do with an empty submarine base?
Not pour billions of pounds down the drain into it?
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nuclear submarine base
Indeed, now what are you going to do with an empty submarine base?
90% of its oil revenue
The UK is a net importer of oil these days - there is no oil revenue. You may be able to make a small profit on the last trickles, though.
permanent seat on the UN security council
Unlikely, but I know for sure who won't be on it...
That doesn't take into account the oil/gas off the West coast of Scotland nor does it take into account the Scottish stake of the Rockall claim.
BTW i'd hardly call 1.5 trillion barrels a trickle... and that's just the north Sea.
who gives a fuck about a seat on the security council to be quite frank???
As for what to do with an empty submarine base??? now that's EASY.. refit it as a support base much like the port at Nig off the north east which makes astonishing money servicing oil rigs, support vessels a
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Scottish Independence a media stunt? or isn't going to happen???
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Scottish Independence a media stunt? or isn't going to happen???
As a Scot, I really hope it won't happen!
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What are your main reasons for this?
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Whether you like it or not, the tide of history is moving from smaller to larger groups.
Once it was small groups of humans led a hunter gatherer life. Then the groups got bigger, people settled and the villages turned into towns and so on.
We have seen that progress. Most city states are now subsumed into nation states and the trend over the last 50 years has been for voluntary association of nations into larger units. The UK is in several of these units including NATO and the EU. There will always hav
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"Whether you like it or not, the tide of history is moving from smaller to larger groups."
Things tend to happen whether anyone likes it or not. That is not really specific to me.
You are right about the tide of history of smaller groups moving to larger ones. Possibly the eventual world will be one giant entity with some form of feedback loop for governance that allows for greater say by the populace on how that governance is manifest. Checks and Balances and Divided government and Voting will certainly be p
I see endless possibilities here (Score:2)
The potential for a whole new genre of Scotsman jokes is giving comedians everywhere goose bumps.
Taysiders in SPACE! (Score:1)
Should have been Ascension Island (Score:3)
While I was VP for Public Affairs at E'Prime Aerospace, we evaluated various sites for establishing a space port to launch our MX-derived rockets. It turned out that the presence of a military air strip at Ascension Island [google.com] allowed a military jet transport large enough to deliver entire launch vehicles. Of course, the MX system was solid fueled so we didn't have to transport cryogenics long distances, but it would be feasible to set up a LOX facility on the island. There is a particular coastal cliff that is ideal for a launch pad.
Stay in the UK & we'll maybe give you a spacep (Score:2)
hahahahaha.
What a funny ploy.
What if Scotland actually votes for independence?
I predict rocket engined powered by... (Score:2, Flamebait)
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Re:World Cup 2018 (Score:5, Funny)
How about getting the England football team beyond the first round for the next world cup? This I see as a much better plan for 2018.
We prefer realistic goals.
Re:World Cup 2018 (Score:4, Funny)
How about getting the England football team beyond the first round for the next world cup? This I see as a much better plan for 2018.
We prefer realistic goals.
David Cameron is currently undertaking a feasibility study on the possibility of holding a piss-up in a brewery.
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I understand he's currently stuck on picking Evian or Dasani for the beverage.
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Dasani is not available here because it doesn't comply with EU drinking water standards, so it would be Evian.
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Why not create an UK team ? You would have more chances of success.
double zero is still zero!
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While the article talks about spaceplanes a lot more, it also states that the facility will be capable of satellite launches. If it ever actually gets built, which seems dubious with Scotland's current political situation.
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It would be typically Scottish to want to orbit the opposite direction as everybody else.