Snowden Reportedly In Talks To Return To US To Face Trial 671
HughPickens.com writes: The Globe and Mail reports that Edward Snowden's Russian lawyer, Anatoly Kucherena, says the fugitive former U.S. spy agency contractor is working with American and German lawyers to return home. "I won't keep it secret that he wants to return back home. And we are doing everything possible now to solve this issue. There is a group of U.S. lawyers, there is also a group of German lawyers and I'm dealing with it on the Russian side." Kucherena added that Snowden is ready to return to the States, but on the condition that he is given a guarantee of a legal and impartial trial. The lawyer said Snowden had so far only received a guarantee from the U.S. Attorney General that he will not face the death penalty. Kucherena says Snowden is able to travel outside Russia since he has a three-year Russian residency permit, but "I suspect that as soon as he leaves Russia, he will be taken to the U.S. embassy."
Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Really bad idea. If he was going to do this he should have never bothered leaving in the first place.
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Thinking the same thing here.
I love living here and all, but damn - if I were a young single guy and my home country wants me imprisoned (or worse - probably worse) over uncovering illegal activities they committed?
Screw that - I could learn Russian easily enough, many of the women there are reportedly rather cute, vodka ain't that bad as far as booze goes, and I can easily deal with living in cold-ass weather 9 months of the year.
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
However, you're not really going to be doing much better with the Russian government that the US government...
Leverage (Score:3)
Snowden may be using what leverage he has left. He has not yet disclosed all the information he obtained so the US government might cut a deal to avoid further disclosures.
Re:Leverage (Score:5, Informative)
Snowden may be using what leverage he has left. He has not yet disclosed all the information he obtained so the US government might cut a deal to avoid further disclosures.
If you believe what Snowden has previously said then no. He has already given everything he had to foreign third parties, and he no longer controls the information. Snowden could plead with them not to reveal anything more, but it is out of his hands. That is if you believe him.
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
However, you're not really going to be doing much better with the Russian government that the US government...
Won't have to... just work for a private company in some capacity. Even if it wasn't in tech, I'd rather be a lowly factory worker in East Bumfuck, Russia than a famous prisoner in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.
Same deal as Petraeus? (Score:5, Insightful)
It was annouced today that former General David Patraeus (former head of the CIA, former commander of US forces in Afghanistan) has been allowed to plead guilty to one misdemeanor count of disclosing classified information after providing large amount of secret info to his mistress and biographer. Should Petraeus, who was motivated by vanity and sex, get a better deal than Snowden who was motivated by love of country and his own idealistic morality? I think not.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
ES: Hey, I'll let ya get ur hooks in me if you'll be fair.
US: Sure, we "Promise", you can bet the constitution on it...
Re:Same deal as Petraeus? (Score:5, Interesting)
General Betray-Us should spend the rest of his life making little rocks out of big rocks at Ft. Leavenworth.
Ed should be given a ticker tape parade, one hundred billion dollars, and a lifetime exemption for the next ten generations of descendants of all taxation.
Re:Same deal as Petraeus? (Score:5, Funny)
Right, where's the American spirit? The General Asshole did it for vanity, fame and money, in short, the American dream. And that idiot Snowden for "love of his country" and "moral values". Fuck that, you gotta monetize that shit! Giving away state secrets for free is so Un-American, you commie bastard!
Re: (Score:3)
I'm not a great fan of the Guardian either, but "national enemies" is going too far.
Re:Same deal as Petraeus? (Score:5, Insightful)
Snowden is guilty of turning over a detailed review of our internal security apparatus to our national enemies
I know it doesn't look that way, but technically the American public is not an enemy of the USA.
Re: (Score:3)
Well, the lesson is: Don't get caught. But, well, that's the lesson to learn from anything involving doing time for.
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Better yet, go to Ukraine. Less Putin, more cute women. Sorta like Russia-Lite.
... and soon enough, Russia proper?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
+1 for believing the propaganda despite all the evidence released. Sat photos are hard to fake, and sat photos of artillery/tanks entering Ukraine from Russia are pretty damning evidence.
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, Ukraine would never trade Snowden to the US for military aid against Russia.
Re: (Score:3)
Well, if the US were willing to risk an armed conflict with Russia in order to get their hands on Snowden, they don't need to wait...
Re: (Score:3)
Thinking the same thing here.
I love living here and all, but damn - if I were a young single guy and my home country wants me imprisoned (or worse - probably worse) over uncovering illegal activities they committed?
Screw that - I could learn Russian easily enough, many of the women there are reportedly rather cute, vodka ain't that bad as far as booze goes, and I can easily deal with living in cold-ass weather 9 months of the year.
Except you're not some random expat in Russia. You're a spy who has left everything behind, and not necessarily trusted by the Russians, either; since they cannot predict what you might do or say if you leave. They can't very well let you talk to whoever you want, get a job where you might learn something of interest you could reveal, or turn on them if you decide life there is worse than when you left. You have to wonder if the Russians one day will decide they get a better deal turning you over to the Ame
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You have to wonder if the Russians one day will decide they get a better deal turning you over to the Americans what they get by protecting you
Historical trivia: The Russians have done that before. When Hitler came to power in Germany, hundreds of German leftists fled to Russia, assuming they would be safe in a communist country. The Russians turned 600 of them over to Hitler as part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact [wikipedia.org].
Re:Bad idea (Score:4, Funny)
It's not Finnish. ;)
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
The number of grammatical cases is irrelevant. Question: What's the difference between a grammatical case without stem changes and a postposition (opposite of a preposition? Answer: A space.
That which is challenging, apart from stem changes, is the same thing that is challenging with helper words in general: when to use what with what. Picture a person learning English and trying to remember what to use with what. "I was scolding her.... over it? for it? about it? to it? around it?" "We were unhappy.... over it? for it? about it? to it? around it?" "She was dedicated.... over it? for it? about it? to it? around it?" And so forth. It's the same for people trying to learn which declension case to use in which context. But if the declensions are just suffixes without stem changes, then they're no different from postpositions. And often stem changes where they occur follow pretty predictable rules, often for pronunciation reasons.
Re: (Score:3)
He did pretty well with English, a language where pronunciation has nearly nothing to do with the way you write it
Says you. (Translation: "sez u")
Re: (Score:3)
How many tenses do you think there are in English?
There is "wigwam," and, "teepee," so there are two tents.
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know if Russia is a good place for someone like Snowden who likes to expose government corruption. Then again, maybe he'll have better luck than Boris Nemstov.
Luckily, if the Russians ever decide to jail him for exposing government corruption, he's likely to get that "fair and impartial" trial that he evidently thinks he needs a guarantee for in the US.
The fact that Putin's Russia is also a bully does not absolve the US of it's hypocrisy and misdeeds.
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Yes. I'm also tired of the line, "at least we live in a country where we're free to have that discussion."
First, all the things we do right are not an affirmative defense against the things we do wrong. Mother Teresa would still go to jail if she murdered someone.
Second, it's not much of a discussion if the people who say that put their fingers in their ears and shout, "I'm not listening!" when you try to talk to them. Which is what that line is designed to do -- distract from the actual topic of discuss
Re:Bad idea (Score:4, Informative)
I don't know if Russia is a good place for someone like Snowden who likes to expose government corruption. Then again, maybe he'll have better luck than Boris Nemstov.
Luckily, if the Russians ever decide to jail him for exposing government corruption, he's likely to get that "fair and impartial" trial that he evidently thinks he needs a guarantee for in the US.
As long as it is only the US government's corruption, abuse of power and their ongoing rape of the US constitution that Snowden is exposing then I'm pretty sure the Russians are perfectly happy to allow him to continue and if Snowden has half a brain he will allow the Russians opposition to handle exposing the similar shenanigans of the Russian government.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You are spouting the RT party line, muddy the water so that people do not notice that a dozen of Putin's detractors have been executed and summarily covered up by the police
Re: (Score:3)
And then what?
I don't really like Putin. Personally I consider him a huge step back in Russia's way towards a real democracy (ok, it's not like there are any good role models left for that, but ... hey, let's remember the good ol' days when the US had to pretend to be the good guy 'cause of the bad Commies), but the question is "what comes after?"
I can't help but compare him to Saddam. Saddam sure was not a good leader. But even his tyrannic regime was better than the clusterfuck that's going down now.
At le
Re:Bad idea (Score:4, Insightful)
Agreed. Due process is for matters which don't threaten the ruling class. Matters which do threaten the ruling class are considered "too important" for the regular judicial system, because the first and foremost concern of the ruling class is to maintain and propagage the ruling class -- exactly as it has been since the dawn of coercive authority.
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Really bad idea. If he was going to do this he should have never bothered leaving in the first place.
Maybe he felt that being out of the immediate grasp of the US Government gave him a lot more breathing space to talk about it and discuss the leaks, even if he didn't actually want to leave the US. If he'd stayed in the US it would have been much faster and easier to shut him up quickly and let it peter out, in contrast to him video conferencing all over the place and responding to questions to give a deeper insight into what went on.
That said, he seems to be considering returning on the basis of certain guarantees from certain people. Given the dirty tricks he has exposed, does he expect them to honour those guarantees? I get that he wants to return because he misses the people and places of home, but even if he openly expects a prison term, does he expect everyone inside and outside the government to be fair and reasonable?
Re:Bad idea (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe he felt that being out of the immediate grasp of the US Government gave him a lot more breathing space to talk about it
Absolutely. We may have never learned that Snowden existed otherwise.
That said, he seems to be considering returning on the basis of certain guarantees from certain people. Given the dirty tricks he has exposed, does he expect them to honour those guarantees?
He may now be famous enough that he couldn't be simply "disappeared" or sent to Guantanamo. That's the best guarantee.
Sadly, this used to be a shield in other countries -- sufficient international fame to prevent disappearance. Now, you might need it in US.
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
He may now be famous enough that he couldn't be simply "disappeared" or sent to Guantanamo. That's the best guarantee.
Might not disappear, but they can still torture him for months without much outrage. See Manning.
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Interesting)
Run (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Run (Score:5, Interesting)
I think the Snowden trial would mirror the trial in Alice in Wonderland:
[trial begins]
US Government: Now, Ha ha... are you ready for your sentence?
Snowden: Sentence? Ah, but there must be a verdict first!
US Government: Sentence first! Verdict afterwards.
Snowden: But that just isn't the way!
US Government: All ways are...
Snowden: Your ways, your majesty.
US Government: Yes, my child. Off with his head!
And I don't think any "magic mushroom" is going to make Snowden grow over a mile high and thus able to walk out a free man.
Re: (Score:3)
With the difference that Snowden at least knows what he's accused of.
Re: (Score:3)
Well, this is the thing about civil disobedience. The classic formula is to keep up awareness of your issue by forcing the government to go through the embarrassing and drawn-out process of prosecuting and punishing you. I'll bet they had to drag Thoreau kicking and screaming out of that Concord jail cell when some joker finally came along and paid his poll tax for him. Holding court for his admirers in the town pokey no doubt suited his purposes nicely.
In that spirit, this announcement is very effectiv
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
I think his own actions make that quite clear. If he's been stuck in a US prison do you think he's be able to still communicate with journalists to draw attention to his leaks, would he be able to testify at the European Union?
He's already demonstrated that he's more valuable to advancing his agenda when he's able to communicate, than if he were in prison alongside Chelsea Manning. He's not running away like a coward, he's running away like someone who's determined to make his actions count for as much as possible.
Re:Bad idea (Score:4, Insightful)
Also I think it's fundamentally wrong to view "civil disobedience" as a one time thing. Him handing a bunch of documents to Glenn Greenwald wasn't the singular act of disobedience.
He's still acting in a disobedient matter. He's still sitting on the bus if you will. And he is still suffering the consequences of his actions, even if that doesn't mean rotting in prison.
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
I know, right? Like how the Sons of Liberty didn't disguise themselves as Indians before dumping a load of tea into Boston Harbor, and then when done, turned themselves in to the nearest British garrison? We need more heroes like those fine, upstanding, nametag-wearing gentlemen.
if you break the law to make your point that the law is unjust you should stand ready to be arrested, imprisoned and tried in court for what you choose to do.
"Ready to be" doesn't mean adopting a Gump level of naivete and making it easy for the government to remove you from the public view. By him fleeing the country (and seeking asylum in a country we traditionally mock for their lack of an open and fair government, no less), we continue to discuss Snowden's actions years later. If he had stuck around, we would all have forgotten about him as soon as the next weekly scandal distracted the media.
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
> IF he really had good and legal reasons to do what he did, take it to court and face the music.
What if he did the right thing but that happened to be illegal? Then I think running is a reasonable thing to do.
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
As I've said before, if he's really this stand up guy, why did he run?
Because he didn't feel he was going to get fair treatment from the government. It's the same reason why a multitude of whistleblowers flee their parent country for fear of retaliation.
IF he really had good and legal reasons to do what he did, take it to court and face the music.
Riiight. Because the government never plays dirty against whistleblowers, right? Oh wait... [politifact.com] Obama is one of the worst presidents when it comes to trying to attack whistleblowers.
Civil disobedience has ALWAYS carried the potential for punishment and if you break the law to make your point that the law is unjust you should stand ready to be arrested, imprisoned and tried in court for what you choose to do. You don't break the law and then run away like a coward...
Said by a big, brave keyboard warrior. Get back to us when you actually face a similar situation to the one Snowden is in.
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
You assume he'd get a trial which was anything other than a secret kangaroo court, operating under secret laws, and that he'd get a fair trial.
When your government has decided it doesn't give a fuck about your laws and your Constitutional rights ... you don't stick around to "face the music".
The only way we'd have ever learned half as much is by him leaving.
And, curiously, the people who were breaking the fucking law in the first place have had pretty much zero repercussions.
Do you see Cheney up on charges? Or Bush? Or Obama? Or the head of the CIA?
Of course not, because those clowns are operating under a different set of laws than you and I do.
Face it, America is handling this like a banana Republic .. if the only thing the AG is promising is no death penalty, maybe the AG doesn't give a crap about the law, or the truth, just protecting the government when it shits all over the Constitution?
Face it, America is now being ran by people who don't believe the law applies to them. Which means you should be very angry with the people in power, and not enabling them to keep acting like this.
Re: (Score:3)
Face it, America is now being ran by people who don't believe the law applies to them.
Just now?
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Interesting)
Face it, America is now being ran by people who don't believe the law applies to them. Which means you should be very angry with the people in power, and not enabling them to keep acting like this.
Which is why I look at Edward Snowden as a true American hero.. If he were to come back to the US, I doubt he'd even get as "fair" a trial as Irwin Schiff did.. .. or THEY would be in violation of the law.... After the trial I spoke to a couple of people who were on that jury and they told me they were convinced of Irwin being not-guilty, but the completely illegal jury instructions scared them such that they voted to convict.. Whether or not you know (or believe) that the "income tax" is totally bogus or you've bought into it like a very large number of Americans, this type of "Star chamber" trial is VERY un-American... And this would be the type of trial that Snowden would receive, AT BEST....
http://www.takelifeback.com/ir... [takelifeback.com]. Irwin's only "crime" was to publish books showing of facts showing clearly that there was/is NO law requiring Americans to pay an "income tax".. I live in Las Vegas, and attended a large part of the "trial".. His attorney was prevented from presenting evidence, and was also prevented from presenting evidence disputing the endless lies presented by the IRS and the prosecution.. Irwin was brought into the courtroom in shackles and prevented from speaking in his own defense by the judge. The "icing on the cake" of this "kangaroo court trial" was the fact that the judge, in his jury instructions, told the jury that they MUST find Irwin guity
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Really bad idea. If he was going to do this he should have never bothered leaving in the first place.
As I've said before, if he's really this stand up guy, why did he run? IF he really had good and legal reasons to do what he did, take it to court and face the music.
Civil disobedience has ALWAYS carried the potential for punishment and if you break the law to make your point that the law is unjust you should stand ready to be arrested, imprisoned and tried in court for what you choose to do. You don't break the law and then run away like a coward...
I don't give a shit if he's a stand up guy, he deserves due process and the US does not hold up it's end of the bargain anymore (assuming it ever did.) We live in a time when it's illegal to discuss the fact that you've received a national security letter, much less the content. We live in a time when labelling someone a "terrorist" means they have no civil rights. People are held without being charged. People are flown to other countries to be tortured. US citizens have been targeted for assassination in other countries. But you think Snowden, knowingly throwing his life away, to expose the depths of the US government's intrusion into our lives is a coward? Because that's what he did, and knew that he was doing it. What sacrifice have you made to hold the government accountable?
Re: (Score:3)
As I've said before, if he's really this stand up guy, why did he run? IF he really had good and legal reasons to do what he did, take it to court and face the music.
Snowden seems like a stand-up guy, Assange seems like a moron and a jerk. In either case, focusing on the person distracts from what matters: the problems in the US government.
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Rosa Parks was arrested and tried, but her trial was public. You can't call attention to the injustice of the law if the trial is secret and nobody is even allowed to talk about what happens at it.
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Even if there are riots, they won't help. Police officers still shoot black kids in the back out of self defence.
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Easy: if rioting ensues, the trial must have been unfair - just as in Ferguson. Isn't that how the legal system is supposed to work? Who needs prosecutors, judges, and juries when you've got a very large jury of angry peers to decide them?
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
And no one will care, you can stand out there all you like, you'll be ignored...
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
"allegedly" violating it - he has not been convicted yet, and the presumption of innocence should prevail. We don't know if a jury would find sufficient cause, given the circumstances and the illegal acts that were being covered up, to find sufficient justification.
Kind of like "yes, I went through the red light, but I was carrying someone who had been shot and was bleeding profusely to the hospital as quickly as I could."
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
There is very strong evidence that the government has subverted the rule of law. This is a problem, but not the real problem. The real problem is that there is no legal mechanism for exposing this subversion, prosecuting the corrupt, and preventing future recidivism. The whole system, congress, president, judiciary, military-industrial complex, are united against reform.
In the meantime,the full weight of the same system has been and will be unleashed against those that try to expose it to the light. There is no legal recourse, and this excuses Snowden's actions, nay, makes him a hero.
Re: (Score:3)
How cute, you believe that. You do realize what they teach you in high school is a complete fantasy.
Also how about that whole 6th amendment being suspended because "we are at war" bullshit.
Or did you forget that nice tidbit that the scumbags in congress passed?
Don't do it, Snowden! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Don't do it, Snowden! (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm thinking that the US is simply wearing him down. they can wait, they have time. but he's living in a kind of prison right now, anyway. his freedom is highly restricted. plus, well, russia is a shit-hole. who in their right mind would want to STAY there if you've known and grown up with better?
still, I would never trust this 'agreement'. the US has a hard-on for fucking him over and there will be NO fair trail, you can bet on that.
the US makes up its own rules and it would take an extremely lucky person to walk out of such a situation alive, in one piece and not be always watching over your shoulder.
his life is mostly over, as it is. really sad to have to say that, but living in the US will always be a 'look over your shoulder' kind of life. he will be hunted the rest of his life, if not by government thugs, then by CITIZEN thugs who think they are being 'patriotic' (dammit!).
there is no good move for him. I wish him the best, he's my ultimate hero, but I don't see this ending well at all ;(
Re: (Score:3)
plus, well, russia is a shit-hole. who in their right mind would want to STAY there if you've known and grown up with better?
Compared to Club Fed (if you're lucky - Death Row if you're not)?
I'll take "Shit-holes I'd rather spend the rest of my natural life in since prison or death are the only other alternatives" for $1000, Alex!
no doubt living in Russia sucks (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't entirely disagree with you here. I do think he has untapped earning potential in Russia, though. If he can get a long-term work visa, there are any number of Russian (Kaspersky as an example) and overseas security consulting firms who would vanity hire him as a security auditor. He was making $200k per year as a contractor for the NSA and I expect he could fetch that or more from a company looking to raise their profile in the security industry. Heck, look at Kevin Mitnick. [wikipedia.org] And that guy was a newb compared to Snowden. I expect $200k per year probably supports a more lavish lifestyle in Russia than it did when Snowden was living in Hawaii.
Re:no doubt living in Russia sucks (Score:5, Insightful)
Russia is quite like the U.S. when it comes to expanse of the land. There's plenty of superbly beautiful and unspoiled areas in Russia, if that's your thing. If remote work was feasible, he could live in the middle of nowhere just as well as in the middle of a big city. I would not generalize Russia to be a shithole. If you're on the wrong footing with the authorities, you'll fare equally poorly in any "civilized" country.
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to be fair, the women I've met from russia and ukraine were amazing knock-out beauties!
for some reason, I get a lot of 'you might know this person' on linked-in and they often are women from ukraine (more so than russia, for some reason). 95 times out of a 100, they are model-quality in their looks.
so, being in that region of the world could have its good points... ;)
Re:Don't do it, Snowden! (Score:5, Funny)
He should have (Score:4, Insightful)
Lied under oath to Congress.
No penalty for that.
Re:He should have (Score:4, Insightful)
Or given classified documents to his biographer. I hear that you can just plead guilty to a misdemeanor [go.com] in that case.
Full blooded American here (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Full blooded American here (Score:5, Informative)
The US has threatened trade sanctions with countries willing to take him in. For example, the US held a tree trade treaty with Ecuador hostage over it the first time around (the revocation of which would have crippled the country). Putin was the only one who had the guts to say: "meh - do your worst". The US is playing hardball when it comes to Snowden - and people around the world are starting to notice. The whole affair has been a horrible black mark on the image of the US - both from what the NSA has done, to how the government behaved trying to get Snowden.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Just because there is no treaty, does not mean he cannot be extradited, just that it will be harded. About the only Countries in the World where he would be immune from American grasp are maybe Russia, North Korea, Belarus, and possibly China, and the Islamic State, but I'm pretty sure he does not want to join ISIS.
Re:Full blooded American here (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Full blooded American here (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Full blooded American here (Score:4, Insightful)
fwiw, do you think any of the 5 eyes (uk, oz, etc) would give him a fair trial?
no such luck!
any time you piss off the spymasters this much, you won't usually live very long, or have a good life. he ran for his life, very literally.
there cannot be a fair trail because you insulted the king and the king is very very mad at you.
Re:Full blooded American here (Score:4, Insightful)
shill detected!
"damage he did"...
you just gave youself away. the US did damage. he just reported it!
another one for the old killfile. thanks for IDing yourself as a stupid government shill.
we can clearly see who is being paid to write dissenting posts, here. its not hard.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, because writing an opinion that differs from yours is clearly only possible by being paid to do so. *eyeroll*
Making public a lot of things that people suspected but didn't quite know did indeed damage relationships. Had he not released the documents, the relationships would have continued as before.
Whether or not the secret actions should have been authorized in the first place is an entirely different issue. From my perspective, having to stamp "secret" on an authorization to do things that you know w
Re:Full blooded American here (Score:5, Insightful)
Guantanamo Bay says differently.
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You misunderstand. His plane will go down on the way to trial, killing him in a tragic coincidence.
No, that's too obvious. He will suddenly contract aggressive, terminal cancer. And, when his DNA is analyzed, it will show he was genetically predisposed to this through a de novo mutation.
He will be too ill for trial and won't live long enough in any case. Bad luck, man!
One condition should be (Score:5, Insightful)
All the scum responsible for the illegal spying go on trial at the same time.
Snowden isn't coming - this is all a ruse (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Snowden isn't coming - this is all a ruse (Score:4, Insightful)
Snowden isn't going to come to the USA willingly to face trial. This is all a ruse. His Russian handlers may just be messing with the US or it may be said to get some publicity. If Snowden really wanted to face justice, he wouldn't have done what he did. His handler is quite right that if Snowden leaves Russia he may end up extradited to the USA. Snowden is going to stay as a permanent "guest" of the USSR, cough cough, I mean Russian Republic as long as Putin is in charge and possibly longer. Wait for it - in the end Snowden or his handlers will say that he couldn't get the guarantees he needed about a fair trial, so he won't be coming. Even if he really wanted to leave and face US justice with no pre-conditions, I don't think Putin and his former KGB boys would let Snowden leave.
Except Snowden is no longer a person who should expect anything from either government. He's just a PR pawn at this point. If the US offers Russia something in return, like concessions in Ukraine, and someone thinks that they could get a big PR win out of it, then expect him to be escorted to a D.C prison post haste.
Re:Snowden isn't coming - this is all a ruse (Score:4, Informative)
He did not commit treason you fucking idiot. Actually read the fucking constitution which clearly defines what treason is.
The problem is ... (Score:4, Interesting)
Is he a traitor, or was his whistle blowing justified?
The real problem is that he could be both at the same time.
Same as in the military, if you disobey a direct order and that disobedience ends up saving lives, you can still be charged with disobeying a direct order. [about.com]
Re:The problem is ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Treason: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
He didn't levy war on us, he didn't adhere to our enemies, nor did he give them comfort. There is a flimsy argument that perhaps his actions gave aid to our enemies but if you roll with that reasoning then all of the people he exposed are also traitors so I'm not sure that's an argument the government would want to make.
He may be a criminal under the current laws, but he's not a traitor. Furthermore, if what he did was illegal then it's the law that is wrong and should be changed. The correct action would be for him to receive a presidential pardon followed by congress strengthening the whistleblower laws and a big shakeup at the NSA to root out their culture of taking activities beyond what they are authorized for. I'm afraid we don't live in that rosy alternate universe however.
Fair and impartial? (Score:2, Interesting)
What part of "releasing classified documents" doesn't he understand? It's pretty obvious he violated US law. Fair and impartial won't change that outcome.
You may argue that the law is bad, or that the purpose of his actions was noble. That same may be said of killing [insert bad guy]. It doesn't make the murder legal, it may only lessen the sentence. I'm not sure when facing the death penalty, that life without parole in a federal penitentiary is going to be that much more appealing if your goal is to live
Re:Fair and impartial? (Score:5, Insightful)
What part of "releasing classified documents" doesn't he understand? It's pretty obvious he violated US law. Fair and impartial won't change that outcome.
It did for Clapper, Alexander, Obama, Cheney, Holder, the CIA and a number of others who broke the Constitution, committed perjury before Congress, violated a number of human rights, tortured and killed people without any legal basis for it, and continued lying about it time after time.
All of those enemies of the American people and their Constitution and violators of their oath are foaming at their mouth in anticipation of casting the first stone on Snowden who got the priorities of who and what he was supposed to serve right: "classification" does not trump disclosure of crimes against the American People and Constitution.
It would be a travesty of justice (or rather it is a travesty of justice) that all those go free for their much more severe crimes while Snowden should be prosecuted for uncovering them.
He is crazy (Score:3)
The trial will be classified. He will be made an example of to prevent further leaks. He'd be nuts to return.
As a fly, never try to negotiate with the spider (Score:3)
There is no way on this EARTH he can possibly put any trust into the US Government to keep their word irregardless of what they may promise. Even if this isn't BS ( which I suspect it is ) you KNOW one of the conditions will be to provide the USG with the full cache of documents and / or the cessation of any further disclosures contained within said cache. The USG does not like to be embarrassed on the world stage. Not one bit.
Even IF by some magical amazing miracle the USG keeps their word ( Recall these people spy on their friends / allies and torture anyone to get what they want ) he couldn't return to the US because about half the country has consumed the wrong color Kool-Aid and believes he's a traitor that deserves to die. So even if the USG doesn't do it, they wouldn't have to. They'll let the radicals do it for them.
I can understand he may be homesick, but returning to the US now will certainly not be the same life he left behind. If he's LUCKY, he'll just sit in prison for the rest of his life.
Unless . . . . .
Unless he has something yet unrevealed on the NSA so incredibly damning, that the USG would do anything to prevent its disclosure. That scenario is the only possibility I can think of where these negotiations could potentially prevent any of the usual behavior we've come to expect of the USG as of late.
Obligatory Exploration? (Score:5, Insightful)
On some level, I feel like Snowden has to explore the option to return, if only to make clear his long-stated desire to do so, look for avenues to negotiate, and keep his supporters engaged.
I am very doubtful, however, that he will be treated fairly given that he committed the unpardonable crime of embarrassing the U.S. government. Obama is clearly petty and pig-headed enough to resist any cries for justice. His mind is made up about a lot of things, this just being one.
If I were him, though, I'd have to be very nervous anxious about being the guest of such a calculating thug during a time of such geopolitical aggression and uncertainty. I mean Vlad could just order him killed by unknown assailants and then blame the U.S. for the purposes of some minor PR points. He's that kind of guy.
Dear Edward Snowden. There has been one person telling the truth and that has been you. You have lost pretty much everything and gained nothing. I hope the day comes when you can walk the streets of our misguided country as a free man. Thank you.
Re: (Score:3)
I have yet to see bitching about Putin that wasn't either a case of projection, or 'beams and 'motes. He's an authoritarian doosh, but he's not keeping people in gulag's that have been cleared for release for a decade, nor is he busy murdering people on the other side of the planet with robot planes for their political speech. Nor has he supported a coup in
All that he needs is an agreement on the charges (Score:3)
No good options (Score:4, Insightful)
It's still a goddamn shame that none of the allegedly "neutral" countries had the balls to take him in, but what can you do? The US is scary.
I don't think the time is yet right for him to come home, the government isn't any friendlier now than when he left and the people are only slightly less apathetic. Without some powerful public figures to support him, he doesn't stand a chance. However with the situation deteriorating in Russia I imagine it would only be a time before he was assassinated or traded back to the US, so he can't well stay there. At least this will shut up the "Why did he run if he really believes in his cause?" crowd - just kidding they'll change the script and keep on going. Always better to make it a referendum on Snowden's character than to actually talk about the real issues.
Require cameras (Score:5, Interesting)
As part of his re-patriation agreement, he should require cameras to be rolling throughout the entire trial with a live uncensored feed available to any organization that wants it (News organizations, EFF, ACLU, etc). If the government shuts down the cameras for any reason, then the agreement is null and void and the USA guarantees his return to Russia.
Then the american people can decide if the trial is "fair" -- if the government tries to redact all of the evidence due to national security reasons, then it's hard to see how the trial can be called "fair".
I realize that the USA will likely ignore the agreement once he's on american soil, but at least it demonstrates that the USA government can't be trusted to abide by its own agreements and it validates Snowden's reason for fleeing to Russia.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Change of venue (Score:5, Interesting)
"Death Penalty" (Score:3)
Can we infer from this that the Federal government doesn't consider "suicide by two bullets to the back of the head" capital punishment?
Because we all know that (or something similarly underhanded) is going to happen.
Don't do it, Ed.
You won't get fair trial (Score:3)
Do not come back until we have a complete change of government here in the USA. You will not get a fair trial.
Our current government is broken, corrupt & vindictive. You hurt them, they want your blood.
Nothing has changed since you leaked those documents.
Obama should Pardon Snowden (Score:5, Interesting)
Whether you think Snowden is a hero or a traitor, I'd say the best political move Obama could make would be to pardon Snowden for any crimes he is accused of committing to date.
It would effectively silence Snowden as he could come home with the pardon in his pocket, assuming he keeps his mouth shut forever after. If Snowden continued leaks, then Snowden would be easy to turn into the bad guy
It would avoid a public trial (which would be awkward, assuming the government would even grant one).
It would avoid accusations of injustice (in case the trial was a secret one in Gitmo, or an unfortunate 'accident' occurred on his flight home).
Obama should do this after the 2016 election before he leaves office, as the hubbub will settle out and be forgotten by the 2018 midterm election. It would not satisfy Snowden's supporters (who think he should get a ticker tape parade) or his detractors (who think he should be imprisoned forever), but it would effectively halt the leaks and put the problem to bed with a minimum of fuss.
Re: (Score:3)
http://billofrightsinstitute.o... [billofrigh...titute.org]
he will NOT get a fair trial, that was removed from american law with the PATRIOT act.
All the scumbags that supported the passing of the PATRIOT ACT should be deported from the United states and labelled as traitors.
Re: (Score:3)
Of course, a fair and impartial trial will also require him to accept a very high likeliness of losing the case, based on the current evidence against him.
Yup. When the law is immoral, only the immoral are innocent of breaking the law.