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Drone Diverts Firefighting Planes, Incurring $10,000 Cost 268

An anonymous reader writes: Fire is raging through thousands of acres of forest in California. A few days ago we discussed how a man's personal drone was shooed away from a fire site. Now, the drone situation has gotten worse. The U.S. Forest Service is helping to fight the fire by sending planes full of fire retardant to drop on the surrounding area. Unfortunately, one of the missions had to be diverted because a private drone had encroached upon the planes's airspace. The mission involved three planes, all loaded with retardant. One was large enough to find another target on which to drop its payload, but the other two simply had to jettison and return to base. Officials say the failed mission wasted at least $10,000. They're now having to spend extra time keeping an eye out for these drones and trying to educate operators on the temporary restrictions in place around forest fires.
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Drone Diverts Firefighting Planes, Incurring $10,000 Cost

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  • Shoot them (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 27, 2015 @08:34AM (#50001395)
    If you got nosy neighbors I feel bad for you son. I got 99 problems but a dork's drone ain't one. Serious suggestion, start shooting toy drones down when they're interfering with something important.
    • So now we're going to bring trained marksmen and their guns in firefighting planes? That'll cost more than $10,000.

  • by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Saturday June 27, 2015 @08:34AM (#50001397) Homepage Journal

    As much as I'd like to see drone operators exercise some responsibility, the system is completely broken if you can turn a state into a firestorm with a minor act of arson and some auto-loitering drones.

    Step 1. Start fire
    Step 2. Set drone to loiter over areas with the most fire, at about 1500 feet
    Step 3. The world ends in fire.

    If we cannot create firefighting craft which can tolerate drone strikes, then we're completely fucked, because any enemy can utterly destroy our country with nothing but a few container-loads of drones.

    • Agreed. On the other hand... what plane can't tolerate a drone strike? Not really up on drones but seems to me the vast majority are smaller and lighter than a lot of birds. Bird strikes obviously aren't good if they hit an engine. But outside of that I'm trying to figger out what the major problem is. So did the drone encroach the planes airspace or did the plane encroach the drones airspace?

      • by Capt.Albatross ( 1301561 ) on Saturday June 27, 2015 @09:09AM (#50001485)

        Putting aside any other consideration, you don't want that DC10 taken out of service during the fire season.

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by knightghost ( 861069 )

          That DC10 was designed to hit geese without sustaining damage. You think a 1 kg drone is going to do anything?

          Besides, those retardant drops don't do anything other than provide fertilizer for plant recovery the next year. Fires burn out when they burn out - the guys on the ground and air have little impact. (Note: I worked over 100 major forest and range fires. Only 1 was not caused by logging or over-grazing.)

          • by Richard_at_work ( 517087 ) on Saturday June 27, 2015 @10:52AM (#50001809)

            If you know anything about jet engines, then you would know that a simple set of ear protection earmuffs can kill a multi million dollar engine if ingested.

          • Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)

            by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Saturday June 27, 2015 @10:56AM (#50001825)
            Comment removed based on user account deletion
            • Drones are a bit more harsh on the engine, because geese are made of relatively soft stuff. Even the bones are remarkably flexible.

              You do realise bird ingestion tests are done with frozen birds right? I would hazard that they are more dangerous to an engine than carbon fibre and plastic. A frozen bird has considerably more mass concentrated in dense blob than more typical drones.

              Thawed birds on the other hand a frail soft and squishy things which wouldn't stand up to a slow moving ceiling fan.

          • There's precious little metal in a goose.
          • by caseih ( 160668 )

            As for the danger of a drone strike, we can safely say that the odds of losing lives and property from such a strike are not zero, even if they are small. However if drone kiddies would act in a rational and prudent manner and get their drones out of these restricted areas, those odds drop to zero. Thus it's stupid, utterly stupid, to allow these idiots to continue endangering life and property. It's a no brainer. I hope folks turn in these people and they get slapped with some heavy fines. And if an ai

          • That DC10 was designed to hit geese without sustaining damage. You think a 1 kg drone is going to do anything?

            Er, no. That's just untrue. See the relevant regulations [flightsimaviation.com]. Depending on the bird size, the engine has to either not explode or catch fire (for large birds), or continue to operate at 75% power for between 5 and 20 minutes (small and medium birds, flocks of smaller birds) before safe shutdown.

            "Doesn't explode or require immediate shutdown" isn't the same as not "sustaining damage". And even though the aircraft would likely survive ingesting a drone doesn't mean it would be good to lose a firefighting a

      • by antiperimetaparalogo ( 4091871 ) on Saturday June 27, 2015 @09:19AM (#50001525)
        In Greece we have a lot of fires in the summer, and a lot of Canadair firefighting planes... great planes, can take (and take) a lot of damage (e.g., birds), and our pilots are great ex Air force guy that will fly some special missions for special forces with that great plane in case of war... getting hit by a drone (in the windshield or in the propeller) is more dangerous sometimes than getting hit by bullets.

        An example of a real operation from Greece [youtube.com] (you can find many in youtube)... watch how this planes approach and imagine a drone (especially some made with big metal parts) flying in their direct path...

        • Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • by ihtoit ( 3393327 )

        pretty sure exploding lithium batteries are more violently destructive than a goose's breastplate, as would be metal parts such as motors.

      • An incident commander spotted the drone, a fixed-wing craft about four feet wide, flying about 800 or 900 feet off the ground

      • > Agreed. On the other hand... what plane can't tolerate a drone strike?

        Most of them. There are many good explanations of the problem, including http://www.askthepilot.com/the... [askthepilot.com]. And a firefighting plane dumping foam is effectively "barnstorming" anyway, dumping the foam at the lowest possible altitude.. An impact on the cockpit is dangerously distracting, an impact in a rotor or jet engine could be catastrophic.

      • by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

        Agreed. On the other hand... what plane can't tolerate a drone strike? Not really up on drones but seems to me the vast majority are smaller and lighter than a lot of birds. Bird strikes obviously aren't good if they hit an engine. But outside of that I'm trying to figger out what the major problem is. So did the drone encroach the planes airspace or did the plane encroach the drones airspace?

        A bird strike is damaging. If you have altitude, you have options. Firefighting aircraft don't have altitude - they'

    • by dissy ( 172727 )

      I remember reading stories and comments on slashdot referencing the British version of the US FCC, where they utilize vans/trucks of RF tracking equipment to triangulate locations of both unlicensed transmitters as well as unlicensed receivers.

      As I recall they do this due to a mandatory "TV tax" type of thing on the receiver side, but more akin to preventing interference on the transmitting side very much in line with our FCC rules already.

      Perhaps such methods and technology could be used to track down the

    • The reality of the situation, though, is this: No private citizen needs a drone. They sure as fuck have NO justification for flying one above a massive forest fire that fire crews are trying to get under control. In this case the drone pilot, ideally, should be caught, perhaps criminally charged, and definitely be forced to pay for the costs incurred for playing with their toy in an inappropriate and dangerous manner. If their drone had been struck by one of the tanker aircraft, causing it to crash, they'd
      • The reality of the situation, though, is this: No private citizen needs a drone.

        So you don't believe anyone should have anything they don't need? Log off immediately and throw your computer in the bin, hypocrite.

        They sure as fuck have NO justification for flying one above a massive forest fire that fire crews are trying to get under control.

        Yes, that much is true.

        In this case the drone pilot, ideally, should be caught, perhaps criminally charged, and definitely be forced to pay for the costs incurred for playing with their toy in an inappropriate and dangerous manner.

        Yes, I agree with all of that.

        If their drone had been struck by one of the tanker aircraft, causing it to crash, they'd need to be charged criminally for that, and for murder if any of the crew died because of it.

        Yes, and the state is free to take them to civil court to recover their costs in this situation, where no one was hurt.

        As I said elsewhere,

        Oh good, I'm glad you said something elsewhere.

        There's lots of legitimate reasons for private citizens to own drones. There's no legitimate reasons for them to fly all up in the grills of the forest service.

        • So you don't believe anyone should have anything they don't need? Log off immediately and throw your computer in the bin, hypocrite.

          Looking at your other comments it's clear that you're one of those people who just likes to argue, so that's all I'm going to point out here. Getting in a 'discussion' with someone like you is a negative-sum game at best.

      • No private citizen NEEDS a gun either; or a car, or a computer, or porno magazines. That doesn't mean we can't have them.

        The reality of the situation is that the persons taking video of the fire with their fancy flying cameras were probably unaware that they were interfering with the fire-fighting effort.
        • You know, the problem with the concept of 'common sense' is that it's anything but 'common' anymore, apparently. If it were I who owned a drone, and lived close enough to where there was a massive forest fire, where many firefighters, with air support, were trying to contain it, the last thing I'd think to do is anything to get in the way of them doing their jobs. That would most certainly include keeping my pricey little flying toy the hell away from the whole scene. I really can't imagine what would go th
    • by sjames ( 1099 )

      FD dumps fire retardant on drone, problem solved.

  • by cyber-vandal ( 148830 ) on Saturday June 27, 2015 @08:39AM (#50001405) Homepage

    They need retard retardant.

  • by caseih ( 160668 ) on Saturday June 27, 2015 @09:03AM (#50001469)

    I guess it's time to post a significant reward for information leading to the arrest of the person who did this. Apparently just the news stories about how stupid this is isn't enough to dissuade these idiots. So a good stiff fine is needed, and his drone seized. Hopefully that would finally send a message. Time for someone to 'fess up and spread the word to others.

    Being an RC airplane enthusiast myself, it angers me to see such lack of regard for the rights and property of others. It's exciting to see such technology but unfortunately the barrier to entry is now so low that people are able to act without thinking.

    • by Fnord666 ( 889225 ) on Saturday June 27, 2015 @12:06PM (#50002105) Journal

      I guess it's time to post a significant reward for information leading to the arrest of the person who did this. Apparently just the news stories about how stupid this is isn't enough to dissuade these idiots. So a good stiff fine is needed, and his drone seized. Hopefully that would finally send a message. Time for someone to 'fess up and spread the word to others.

      Don't worry. The individual in question will self report via a youtube post within the next day or so. Problem solved.

  • Leave the drones to the professionals at Amazon, Google, and Verizon. They're the ones to best manage that public airspace soon to be worth billions of dollars. And be sure and spread all the FUD possible about private drones, anecdotal "evidence" is great, if you don't have any, make it up.

    Drone in the same "airspace". Guffaw.
  • by Overzeetop ( 214511 ) on Saturday June 27, 2015 @09:19AM (#50001523) Journal

    Can we stop calling them drones. They're remote controlled (hobby) airplanes. Drones makes it sound like it's a weaponized, autonomous craft weighing hundreds of pounds.

    • by dissy ( 172727 ) on Saturday June 27, 2015 @09:48AM (#50001611)

      Can we stop calling them drones. They're remote controlled (hobby) airplanes. Drones makes it sound like it's a weaponized, autonomous craft weighing hundreds of pounds.

      The only problem with that request is that today a percentage of hobbyist drones ARE autonomous craft in the 100+ pound class.

      Limiting our discussion to one subset of aircraft (the small RC planes) would not allow for fully addressing the actual problem at hand, in that any/all unauthorized aircraft should NOT be in no-fly zones, and most certainly should not be in obviously dangerous areas such as over a forest fire where there is no justification or excuse for not assuming it would be a no-fly zone at that point in time.

      And while no they are not specifically weaponized, in the sense of adding specific payloads to drop.
      But similar to controlling a 2000+ pound car in and of itself can be used as a weapon, so too can the medium to heavier drones.
      The point being that even non-weaponized doesn't necessarily mean the device can't still be used in a dangerous manor.

    • Since when does a drone need to be weaponised?

      Also most are autonomous.

      These are not the same R/C toys you used to play with in your youth. Get back on your lawn.

    • by captjc ( 453680 )

      I am all for hobbyist RC helicopters. Hell, I own two. However, I also believe that if they are capable of flying high enough to interfere with actual aircraft they cease to be toys and become unlicensed remotely operated aircraft, or drones. This is not some $200 toy quadcopter from Amazon, this was a 4-foot wide drone in a no-fly zone.

  • 1. they're remotely operated UAVs, not drones.
    2. Shoot the motherfuckers down. Yes, you read that right. If an aircraft is in airspace it shouldn't be, destroy the fucking thing. If there's a situation that calls for larger aircraft equipped to deal with the situation, and there's a fucking UAV in the way, tag it, kill it and wait for the first twat to roll into a police station to complain that his toy has been shot down and arrest the cunt,

    • Shooting down a small UAV/drone/RC aircraft is not a simple task.
  • In addition to having dump the retardant, the fire-fighting planes were grounded for two hours until the airspace was determined to be clear of the drones. Many fire-fighting flights did not occur because of the egregious stupidity of the drone operator(s).

    .
    Incidents such as this one, and the increasing number of close calls at major airports involving drones, are making me re-evaluate my opinions about drone regulation.

    Too many drone operators are putting public safety at risk in order to have their f

    • What's it going to take before these idiot drone operators come to their senses?

      Yeah! And what's it going to take before these idiots who start the fires in the first place come to their senses! We should definitely regulate matches, hot catalytic converters, hibachis, and magnifying glasses. Oh, right, it's already against the law to start wildfires. Just like it's already against the law to interfere with firefighting operations. We don't need new regulations (since that won't stop idiots from being idiots anyway) - we need substantial penalties for being a jackass. Like we already

  • by kheldan ( 1460303 ) on Saturday June 27, 2015 @10:23AM (#50001725) Journal
    Get a bunch of people involved in it.

    Consumer-grade 'drones' are fun toys to play with (I don't own one but I'll take it on faith that they are). But as with just about anything, my 'rule of thumb' holds true: Get a large group of people involved in something that's otherwise good, and they'll find a way to ruin it for everyone else. Because of that here's what's likely to happen:
    All drones, regardless of being miltary, government, commercial, or privately owned, will have to be registered (similar to any other aircraft), and perhaps be required by law to have some sort of transponder incorporated into their design, so they can be identified remotely just like any other aircraft. Furthermore, all prospective drone pilots will be required to take and pass a training course before even being allowed to purchase a drone. That way drone owners, like in this article, can be held accountable for their actions, and maybe the dumbshits that would do something like this can be weeded out before they even get their hands on a drone in the first place.

    ..and before you get mad at me for saying this, I suggest you direct your rage at the moron who's flying his drone in the airspace of firefighting aircraft trying to do their job. 'Muh freedoms' doesn't, and shouldn't, extend to anyone being stupid, inconsiderate, and borderline illegal.
  • by russotto ( 537200 ) on Saturday June 27, 2015 @10:35AM (#50001769) Journal

    How much is Diane Feinstein's office paying Slashdot to publish stories like this? I fly R/C helicopters and I sure as fuck don't want them banned or restricted to the point where they have to be equipped with the sort of expensive equipment it would take for them to respect NOTAMs.

    Not to mention that it won't work. There's already open-source versions of the control systems. What component are you going to restrict?

  • It was military (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward

    http://www.techenstein.com/cal-fire-aircraft-forced-down-by-military-drone/

    This is an RS-20 UAV with orange wings, and has nothing to do with this story other than it fitâ(TM)s the profile and we needed an image. Stock photos are frequently used by the media because they have so little actual information to go on.
    On Wednesday June 24, Cal Fire aerial tankers were forced to the ground by a military reconnaissance drone. The 4 ft wide orange fixed wing drone was first spotted at 11,000 ft and crossed pat

  • Yeah it's great for blowing jihadiis out of their Lexuses in Yemen but that doesn't mean it scales for civilian contexts and populated areas where, you know Newton's Laws of gravitational force act on bodies. You can't have even 4 lb objects flying anywhere they want because each one turns into a downward missle as soon as it malfunctions for any reason whatsoever or runs into a power line or a bird or whatever (whatever =~ 1 million other unforeseen events).

    Air space is controlled by the FAA , just some pe

  • I don't understand why they had to divert so much for a tiny drone. Seems like a little jog to the left, and another to the right, and an angry finger gesture ...
  • Simple solution: send out a chopper dangling a big heavy net to entrap and destroy the "remove controlled (hobby) airplanes." No warning, no discussion. Destroy them. I'm sure the FAA won't complain, and screw the owner.

    Same choppers they use to haul big buckets of water to dump on fires, so I'm sure they're available.

  • Why not dump the retardant on top of the damned drone instead of diverting. Idiotic paranoia about drones is rather dumb. Either that or just hit it.

  • This seems like one of those cases where the FCC rules limiting frequency interference take a back seat for the greater good. Put noise generator aboard the firefighting planes which jams the control frequencies commonly used by hobby drones and RC aircraft (any drones used by the firefighters can be adapted to use a different frequency - probably military). After these idiots lose control of their precious drone and watch it fall into the fire, they'll learn pretty quickly not to fly them around firefigh
  • by Marful ( 861873 ) on Saturday June 27, 2015 @04:14PM (#50003281)
    I came across this blogger posted in a subreddit about multicopters [reddit.com]: Cal Fire Aircraft Forced Down by Military Drone. [techenstein.com]

    And the blogger raises several points:

    1.) The alleged drone had a four foot wide wingspan fixed-wing aircraft with bright orange wings.
    Most hobbyist don't operate unmanned aerial vehicles. They operate what is called First Person View (FPV) aircraft that have limitations due to maintaining a video signal link as well as a flight control link. To operate such a FPV drone at extended distances through a mountainous/hilly terrain, such as where this fire is, is rolling the dice as to whether you will ever see your drone back again. And given the costs of a setup capable of maintaining a video/control link at the ranges alleged means such a FPV operator has some serious money invested in their equipment. The blogger mentions that such capable equipment capable of this is not available off-the-shelf.

    2.) The fire department claimed the incident occurred at 11,000 feet.
    Is this 11,000 feet "AGL" (Above Ground Level?) or above sea level? Because if it is AGL, again this makes it less and less likely this was a hobbyist operated drone due to the extreme distances/elevation (effectively 2 miles up).

    3.) The blogger mentions:

    The color orange or red is frequently used by the U.S. Navy as well as other agencies to increase visibility of the unmanned aircraft, and is typically not a concern for hobbyists.

    One user in the subreddit post pointed out that the El Mirage dry lake bed is approximately 10 miles from the fire area where allegedly

    "there is a UAV/Predator testing site/company there".

    While this is by no means conclusive, I'm inclined to call "Bullshit" given the scarcity of information. The lack of an arrested individual to publicly shame/ridicule (it's easy to follow a 4 foot wingspan bright orange drone back to it's controller...), ambiguous "facts" (actual elevation?, distance of separation?) and the proximity to a military unmanned drone testing site within 10 miles leads me to believe this was a military drone.

    Leaving all of these media articles cropping up about this incident nothing more than F.U.D. designed to whip up hysteria about a topic that is somewhat controversial.

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