Hawaii Approves Telescope On Volcano Sacred To Indigenous People (reuters.com) 251
A new $1.4 billion telescope will be built atop a Hawaiian volcano indigenous people consider sacred. The team of scientists fighting for the telescope won approval from Hawaiian officials on Thursday after selecting the site and applying to build there in 2009. Reuters reports: The Hawaii Board of Land and Natural Resources voted 5-2 to allow construction of the Thirty Meter Telescope (TMT) on the summit of Mauna Kea on Hawaii's Big Island, state officials said in a statement. Astronomers consider the summit one of the world's best places to view the cosmos, while Native Hawaiians say the project would disturb holy ground crucial to their connection with ancestors and the heavens. A consortium of scientists initially received construction permits from state officials in 2011. In 2015, the Hawaii Supreme Court voided that decision, saying officials did not follow the proper procedures for a "contested case hearing." That forced the state board to re-evaluate the proposal with more input from opponents. The project calls for building one of the world's largest telescopes atop the dormant volcano.
Common sense wins.. (Score:5, Insightful)
But at large cost as is often the case.
We will see the usual troublemakers rush back in to try and stir up more protests now.
The same ones who have been missing throughout this actual process, because creating public strife and being the center of attention is what the seek, rather than any actual improvement to peoples lives.
Lemme guess (Score:3, Insightful)
They sent some shaman (or whatever the druggy is called in their religion) to converse with the ancients and they said a gift of a few million bucks could appease them...
Re: Natives "inconveniently" own some land (Score:2, Insightful)
The Native Americans spent thousands of years killing each other and taking land from each other before Whitey ever showed up.
Ya, they got to eat a shit sandwich, just like the losers always have everywhere on Earth for all of History. And now we have a country which has enough power and influence to try and change that globally, and all you assmonkeys can do is whine about World Police.
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Well, I only know if I was an ancient and they wanted to build something that promotes our insight in the universe on my holy ground, I'd try to get an audience with Pele and try to convince her that these guys should be left alone and she might find some tourist trap to flood with lava instead.
but the roads are great! (Score:5, Insightful)
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This is an asinine argument.
Suppose I built a house on a plot of land you owned and you decided to knock it down, which would be within your rights. You'd think I was an idiot if I said, "Well, OK, but don't park your bulldozers in *my* driveway."
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The essential point of the analogy is my claiming your property as my own. Me and my buddies setting up our own "registry of deeds" and depositing pieces of paper in it saying that I own your lot does not change your opinion of who owns it.
If they object to its existence; they shouldn't use it.
Why not?
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That does not follow. If they think the road should not be there, pretending the road doesn't exist does not change anything.
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Not a very good joke, because Islam has no objection to the existence of pigs, but rather specifically to eating of pigs.
Which makes my point: the existence (or even creating) of things is distinct from using that thing in general, and using in general is distinct from any specific use. For example the same rules that make a pig ritually forbidden (haram) for eating make a dog impure for eating. But it is not haram to keep dogs or pigs as pets.
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If you want to be clever, avoid being labored.
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You mean you're a another right wing wanker who expects protestors to climb the side of a mountain with any signs, because reasons.
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It seems we have a choice between "lazy fuckers" who want a "free pass", and greedy fuckers who want to be able to take whatever they want.
So When PELE objects... (Score:2)
i would suggest having a few Jesuit "brothers" on staff just in case things get a bit err Hot.
TERRIBLY SLANTED STORY (Score:5, Informative)
The original plan was to build on a new site. The compromise is to build on an existing site.
The summit of Mauna Kea isn't sacred like a burial ground. The native Hawaiians never went there. It's sacred like Mount Olympus was sacred to the ancient Greeks (they never went there either).
âoeIts not Jeebus...â (Score:2)
âoe...so you islanders can kick rocks.â
If it ainâ(TM)t jerbus, officials donâ(TM)t care.
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Sheesh. The line noise is really bad on your 1970 110 baud acoustic modem!
Wins all around, almost (Score:3)
And much more importantly, a big win for the rule of law. Public land is public land, and religious considerations can't be allowed to dictate use of public land.
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If you think your wife's family are the only people in the history of America to have had their property seized by the gubmint for civil infrastructure, you're in for a pleasant surprise as you're very much not alone. And as sucky as it is when you're the one on the receiving end of it, it's nice that we can have roads and hydroelectric dams and the like. And yes, civil forfeiture is not kosher in its current form in my opinion.
But this is not what happened in Hawaii. The la
context for geeks (Score:3)
I live in Honolulu, visit Puna on the Big Island pretty often.
Please do not paint native Hawaiians as anti-science, they are not.
The protesters are loud, but they represent a fairly small percentage of the population.
Protests are just part of the process of building new structures here.
Things still get built, believe me. They just take longer.
Ob astronomy reference 1 - the ancient polynesians were master navigators who relied on the stars to cross a huge seas in tiny craft without a compass or a map. They were the geeks of their day.
Ob astronomy reference 2 - Many heavenly bodies discovered in Hawaii have been given Hawaiian / polynesian names. The new scope will doubtless add more.
get over (Score:2)
your witchcraft.
Good (Score:2)
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Bingo! We have a winner!
They are capitalists, merely making money. And if those liberal scientists don't like that, they can build their telescope on a different highest mountain in Hawaii.
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If they really are capitalists, they can make money like the rest of us by earning it.
Oh geesh, I thought the sarcasm was obvious.
If I drop the sarcasm, the people who are claiming that "their" mountain is sacred are just a bunch of racists and grifters, and not only do not want a facility there, they do not want Americans or Asians there, and want to revert to the pre-Hook Hawaii of several hundred years ago. But if they can milk some money out of the "ferners", they'll be happy to do so. https://www.splcenter.org/figh... [splcenter.org]
http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/b... [angelfire.com]
They even have a "Kill Haole D
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Their so-called 'native religion' is nothing but a pathetic hoax
I wholeheartedly agree! A hoax like all religions!
Re:Science vs MONEY (Score:5, Funny)
Their so-called 'native religion' is nothing but a pathetic hoax
I wholeheartedly agree! A hoax like all religions!
The tricky part is that there really isn't a good way to differentiate. A Pastafarian is every bit as legitimate as a traditional Christian or a fundamentalist one, or Muslim or Hindu, or Jain and so on Nowhere is it written that a god cannot have a sense of humor.
In the Name of the Pasta, and of the Sauce, and of the Holy Meatballs, R'Amen.
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Nah, Pastafarian isn't a real religion. There's not enough guilt and self loathing for it to count as a religion. Maybe what you really need is some fundamentalists who run out and bomb all the infidels who don't like Italian food.
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Nah, Pastafarian isn't a real religion. There's not enough guilt and self loathing for it to count as a religion. Maybe what you really need is some fundamentalists who run out and bomb all the infidels who don't like Italian food.
Isn't it a pity that in the quest for making God in man's image, that we even incorporate humankind's lust for killing other humans into the dogma?
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It's not just that. We paint God in man's image then make him infallible and spend the rest of our lives apologising for arbitrary things. Though some religions have a catch-all, apparently some Gods are all forgiving.
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It's not just that. We paint God in man's image then make him infallible and spend the rest of our lives apologising for arbitrary things. Though some religions have a catch-all, apparently some Gods are all forgiving.
My grandparents had what is to me a seriously weird belief that once you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior, you were in like Flynn. Nothing else mattered.
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Exactly. There's pretty much nothing I can do that I can't fix in an hour on a Sunday plus a bit of an apology right as I die. Hell must be a lonely place.
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A Pastafarian is every bit as legitimate as a traditional Christian or a fundamentalist one
More so. At least the guy who started Flying Spaghetti Monster admit it was a joke religion. The other religions just keep pretending.
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A Pastafarian is every bit as legitimate as a traditional Christian or a fundamentalist one
More so. At least the guy who started Flying Spaghetti Monster admit it was a joke religion. The other religions just keep pretending.
Sokath, his eyes uncovered. Bless you son, for you have been touched by his noodly appendage.
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Pastafarianism was created as a parody of religion, and is still advocated as such today. People don't join because they actually believe, but because they want to protest the thought process that drives memberships in other religions.
Their souls need saved, and the drive for the truth inevitably takes you to the presence of his noodliness. What's more, he is a kind God, and merely invites you to try the true way for 30 days. If you don't like it, your old religion will probably take you back.
Therefore, it is not "every bit as legitimate as traditional Christian ..." The very center of it is non-religion. Drop the bullshit double-speak because you know damn well this is exactly the case.
So sad. Do ye not want your afterlife reward of fine beer volcanoes and even finer strippers? All you need to is follow the 8 condiments.
As far as dropping the bullshit, well, how can we do that and discuss religion at all?
In the case of pastafarianism, the practicioners don't actually believe a bit of it. In the case of Christianity, the practitioners actually believe. This isn't some surface-level detail, this is the single most relevant distinction between the two, which completely confutes your claim.
Once you drop the bullshit, then we can have a meaningful conversation about how misguided all religions actually are.
Do you think that the
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"Atheism is a religion" is a claim made frequently by people trying to destroy the intellectual superiority that is inherent to atheism. It's a claim made by people (among others) who are lazy or ignorant, and assume that all beliefs (and even lack of beliefs) are based on nothing more substantial than wishes.
Atheism is a religion in the exact same way that abstinence is sex.
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Huh ? Jesus is the guy who does my trees. There's a RELIGION based on him ??? ;)
I thought that was a different religion. I keep hearing people yelling "hey Zeus!".
Re: Science vs MONEY (Score:2)
Itâ(TM)s really hard to fault people for doing what works.
Re: Science vs Religion (Score:5, Funny)
Ancient corpses are only used in building the support arms for the secondary mirror; the primary mirror is entirely corpse free.
Re: Science vs Religion (Score:5, Funny)
Did somebody make a Hoffa they can't refuse?
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I predict these comments will be buried.
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I predict these comments will be buried.
On a volcano, that would be cremated.
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So why did you ask what leftwingers will do?
Reading comprehension fail. GP's question was whether libs are protesting or celebrating:
1) "Is it racist,xenophobic/Nazi?" - lefties should be protesting
2) "is it science triumph over archaic superstition?" - lefties should be celebrating
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Hawaiian natives don't give a shit either. This "You can't build here because it's sacred" is just their long-standing way of demanding a bribe. You would think a "consortium of scientists" would be smart enough to figure out this is how things work in Hawaii.
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Too bad Susette Kelo didn't think of this dodge.
"My house is the central site upon which my religion is based. Religion trumps eminent domain."
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Nobody would give a shit about your religion if you didn't constantly try to push it into education and law. Quite frankly, I couldn't care less about some loonies scooting about on their knees in front of a corpse nailed to an IKEA set if they didn't want to force me to do it, too.
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Pastafarians are at the other end of the alimentary canal from bullshit.
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Pastafarians are at the other end of the alimentary canal from bullshit.
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
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Which religion would that be? Let me guess: The only true one! How did you figure that out? Did you compare all the world's religions when you were a kid or did you just pick the one of the people who raised you or that you happened to interact with.
Of course it is the one you are exposed to as a child, that what culture IS, packaged messily as religion so you have a framework to build a personal morality from by taking responsibility for you're own shitty behavior. Here, read this book to discover how ugly and cruel humanity can be and figure out how to not to do that.
I've never got why people compare science and religion when they are two different fields of knowledge, one deals with the nature of the universe, the other the nature of humanity.
All religions are bullshit and no rational person should put up with any of them!
I
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You write as if civilization wouldn't have advanced without religion.
There was a time, when we were evolving, that we told each other stories to pass on lessons about the human condition. One day, someone figured out a way to write them down and that became religion. The story of the human condition.
You can criticize religion all you want however what you are forgetting is what it is. Humanity had to tell it's story to itself so it could understand itself and manifest enough order to generate science, and everything else, from the intellect. You have to consider that
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"Frankly I've no interest in 'mastering my culture' when it's filled with charlatans and hypocrites. Western society is shit."
No doubt, most of the world is and has been full of charlatans and hypocrites. But laying the blame on Western society is illogical. You've given no evidence to link Western society to being the cause of that, any more or less than other societies. Maybe you'd like to point to your manifesto on what the utopian society would be. I don't believe that the planet has yet seen one.
Re:Its the rightwingers who snowflake on religion (Score:4, Insightful)
Agreed, but the issue is which religions are PC to criticize, and which are protected from any and all criticism. Right now it's open season on Christianity, but every other religion gets a pass. If it were Christianity objecting to this telescope on "sacred ground" people would be waiting in line for hours to throw their two cents of derision Christianity's way. But if this is "sacred ground" to "indigenous people" (they are not) suddenly we have to respect and revere these ancient traditions and protest against this scientific endeavor. If we were consistent we'd call BS on all religious mumbo jumbo instead of reserving whipping boy status only for Christianity.
Don't forget the biases involved! (Score:2)
It's not just that, you also see these protests happening without anybody actually checking to make sure what the actual religious beliefs of the locals say about sacred ground--the automatic assumption is pretty much "Build nothing on it anywhere, ever" which is, when you think about it, weird in a racist way given that very few cultures actually have that as their approach to sacred ground...and most of the ones I can think of with that approach are ones which didn't have the ability to do even a temporar
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While I agree with much of your commentary, I'd just like to toss out some general food for discussion, not necessarily directed at the parent.
Suppose the U.S. was taken over, and that our new overlords decided that the perfect place for their new teleporter was legitimately on the grounds of Arlington cemetery. How would the majority of Americans react?
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Right now it's open season on Christianity, but every other religion gets a pass.
I certainly don't feel that Islam is getting a pass right now even though many liberals are treating any criticism of Islam as "racism". Neither in the US nor here in Europe. I do suspect that you might be right concerning indigenous religions. Personally I don't know why people have warm and fuzzy feelings concerning indigenous people. Probably it's because they were and often still are victims of more technologically advanced cultures. What people tend to forget is that a) they are just as human as w
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Physical proof, you say? Does your "gaia" speak to you? Does it speak to _anyone_? Or is it just another (rather massive) pagan statue, merely a piece of dumb rock? The number of people that do not believe in the surface they stand on is really rather limited. The number of people believe that the surface they stand on is sentient and god-like is much, much smaller.
I'm totally with you on the naked dancing though. All religions should be doing that, it would improve things a lot.
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Just remember, everyone will be dancing naked. Everyone. Not just the ones in your febrile imagination.
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I know. We'll call it "Playboy."
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I know. We'll call it "Playboy."
Don't be sexist, give the ladies something too.
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His Noodliness is about to run you through the Universal Colander for that bit of blasphemy.
Without any Parmesan cheese.
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Proving religion to be BS is more the job of logicians than scientists, particularly since most religions claim miracles, which are explicitly denials of and outside the realm of science.
While you're at it, why don't you demand that plumbers prove religion is BS. That would be no less relevant.
All traditional religions involving the supernatural lead to contradictions. That is the proof that the religion in question is BS.
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I'll grant you that the empirical evidence against an all-knowing, all-powerful, completely benevolent God is very strong, and the Problem of Pain has caused an immense amount of twisted thinking over the centuries.
I don't see the contradictions. Miracles don't contradict science, and if they were scientifically explainable they wouldn't be miracles. Saying that God overrides science in some places at some times isn't a contra
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Nope.
First, there's still a lot we don't understand and can't explain. We can't say everything can be explained by science until we have explained everything scientifically. It's certainly a reasonable world-view, with a lot of evidence behind it, but it can't be proven, and therefore can't be used as the basis of a proof.
Second, there's all sorts of details that we will never know. We can trace evolution pretty well, but we can't determine why each little thing happened. I know a scientist who bel
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It's science which they distrust vs. "false" religion they don't like.
If they can be bothered to watch at all, they sit back with a bowl of popcorn.
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Well, in case you're religious and Christian, is there a way you could be appeased if they razed the Church of the Holy Sepulchre to build the observatory?
Illegal Occupation (Score:2)
I'm all for a people's right to self-determination. Strangely, that's not what I hear from the protesters. The problem today is the same problem of 1898 -- yes, Hawaiians are culturally distinct from the mainland, but the economic ties are vital to their community in a fairly literal sense. Hawaiians don't like haoles, but apparently they're willing to hold their noses and take their money.
If Hawaii wants to leave the US, that's fine. We can drop them and let PR be a state, and not have to change the flag.
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Leftists have a problem with trash like you using religion to get at minorities. Christians are not being told to bugger off 'back to sand ni**er land'. Most left wingers think that all religions are superstition given unwarranted power. Quite apart from which we had the holy wars in the pig ignorant middle ages and the last thing the world needs now is more war.
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I'm sorry, who exactly is saying the bugger off line? Oh, you made that shit up didn't you...got it. As a person who left religion behind when I left my parents home 40+ years ago, I've never met a Christian that used his/her religion to slight anyone, much less minorities. Clearly there's plenty of history of that happening, but within the last few decades, and you give examples? Sorry, nobody alive should be held responsible for crap that happened centuries ago.
Re:Science vs Religion (Score:5, Interesting)
Which way does liberal outrage swing these days?
I think the latest algorithm works like this:
Yeah yeah, take whatever group you don't like, and strawman the living fuck out of them. It kind of leaves out my family, who were serious liberals, yet were very religious.
And then there was me, the most conservative one of the bunch, who doesn't have any part of that bullshit fairy tale or any fairy tale for that matter.
Regardless, despite what people have been trained to think, there are right wing atheists, and left wing deeply religious. If a religion has a litmus test of politics, it is a political group more than a religion.
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Yeah yeah, take whatever group you don't like, and strawman the living fuck out of them. It kind of leaves out my family, who were serious liberals, yet were very religious.
And then there was me, the most conservative one of the bunch, who doesn't have any part of that bullshit fairy tale or any fairy tale for that matter.
Funny. That fits my family exactly. I remember being shocked when I got to college and there was an association of religious with conservative. All the conservatives I knew were atheists and all the leftists I knew were United Church of Christ, etc., deeply religious.
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Yeah yeah, take whatever group you don't like, and strawman the living fuck out of them. It kind of leaves out my family, who were serious liberals, yet were very religious.
And then there was me, the most conservative one of the bunch, who doesn't have any part of that bullshit fairy tale or any fairy tale for that matter.
Funny. That fits my family exactly. I remember being shocked when I got to college and there was an association of religious with conservative. All the conservatives I knew were atheists and all the leftists I knew were United Church of Christ, etc., deeply religious.
That's because the "religious right", which is as much a political group as a religion, have somehow managed to usurp the whole definition, turning it into a nasty tempered cherry picking of the Old Testament's baser parts. I've never seen the Sermon on the Mount mentioned unless they are pressed into it, which you would think would be a "Christian's" guiding principles, being marching orders given by the man himself.
I do understand that the Republican party is issuing a new translation of the New Testam
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It's mostly an invention of the media and behind-the-scenes influence.
Dude, I lived this shit since I was a little kid. My Grandparents fit the mold of today's modern far religious right. Problem with the "balme the media" straw man is that this was the 1960's, I don't think your evil media meme was so entrenched. In fact, these folks were mostly ignored, not "invented" at the time.
Take the Tea Party for example. Started out as a "hey, have some more influence in the political process, come meet up and just discuss things both sides of the aisle no big deal, we'll be trying to do this once or twice a month, we really just want people to get out and vote and have more understanding in the process and the message that people of different backgrounds are taking from things." Six months later, if you ever went to one of those events, you were labeled by the media as a racist murdering 1%er.
It's a lot easier to control people when you make sure that everyone understands that they all have to fit in a bucket, and you're the one that defines the buckets.
You mean like the bucket you tried to put the media in? Look at thine own self AC, you have met the enemy, and its staring at you in a mirror.
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Some religious beliefs - particularly on abortion in some Christian divisions - were set down long before they became political issues. However, even with abortion the boundaries keep shifting. With science showing brain activity at ever earlier times in development, and technology allowing earlier premies to live, some Christian groups have moved from prohibiting abortion at 3-6 months to prohibiting it at conception or a few weeks.
It's a short jump from the reductio ad absurdum that these people have chosen to believe to reductio ad insanatum that following that path ensures.
Given that artificial wombs are being developed, there is no reason that every egg needs to be brought to full term.
The argument is as follows. Every human egg is the basis of a human, and while many sperm are used to fertilize an egg ( remember that one is the eventual fertilizer, but many of these sperm are employed in altering the composition of the egg
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Sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of the incredibly loud dog whistles coming from your post.
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No such thing as 'baiting'. The commentary is valid or it is not. How you react is up to you.
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It is simply your own points being reiterated back to you.
Aaah I see you've reached the 'just make shit up' part of the argument.
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Folks here blow some companies' attempts out of proportion that want to bring more women and minorities into tech into this 'hate white male' attitude or something.
Nope. Folks here point out the obvious hypocrisy of such policies and left wing apologists make strawman arguments.
Many of you people need to get a grip and step out of your bubbles. Your perceptions are wrong.
Heh. Take your own advice. Who advocates for 'safe spaces'? Special exemptions from laws for certain classes of people? Who advocates for people based on divisive concepts like class in the first place? Which group prattles about diversity while downplaying and demonizing individuality, whether thought or action?
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Typically, the narrative would be about evil white male scientists, paving over the sacred native lands to install their phallic, oppressive astronomy instruments.
Only if this is your first debate and you've never looked into this before. Scientists get pushback for many reasons, but "sacred native lands" rarely has support beyond a few local indigenous nutjobs these days.
Your post would be far more relevant in the 1400s
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Both arguments have been made here in discussions on this topic, repeatedly. But if you're shocked that Slashdotters prefer science to superstition, maybe you need to look into some grounding.
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Presumably less than telescope atop an active volcano...
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ok
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in that case it's more likely it would have blown up the entire island.
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Even the tiniest bit of research on your part would turn up, "Testing also determined Mauna Kea to be superb for nighttime viewing due to many factors, including the thin air, constant trade winds and being surrounded by sea." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauna_Kea_Observatories). "constant trade winds and being surrounded by sea" -- your other proposed locations don't have that. The location in the middle of the Pacific (not the edge, or surrounded by land) provides a very rare advantage to Hawaii. An
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Who wants to work in Pakistan, India or Chile, if the world can be convinced that Hawaii has the best place for the telescope.
Weird that a person of presumed insight doesn't know that Chili has the other premier astronomy site in the world.
Regardless, along with air quality and height, there are other issues like accessability, and stability. The suitable areas of Pakistan aren't terribly stable, and India is stable but not as accessible as a spot in the USA.
As well, there is nothing stopping India or Pakistan from building a world-class observatory if they find that in their interests. But Hawaii is their, it's a premier sp
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LOL. That's CHILE, chump.
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Whether or not it is stolen land is entirely arbitrary as long as you can kill anyone who tries to take it back. Kind of the standard operating practice for America and Americans, no one owns anything until they own it, as long as they can kill to take and keep it. Evil is, as evil does.
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Whether or not it is stolen land is entirely arbitrary as long as you can kill anyone who tries to take it back. Kind of the standard operating practice for America and Americans, no one owns anything until they own it, as long as they can kill to take and keep it. Evil is, as evil does.
Oh yes, only Americans are evil, eh? I've already given the references as to who thse people are. How about letting me know your ancesters are and th ecountry in which you live. I have a suspicion thet your hands are dirty as well.
And anyhow, is there some sort of force of nature that says that all lands belong to the first people settling there in perpetuity? Anyhow, let me know what I asked for, and if your people were the fist to live in the land you are in governing force, and if your people have n
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I think you mean "the standard operating practice for Humans". Might makes Right has been policy since the dawn of recorded history.
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You are missing the point. Nowhere in the arguments they were mentioning socio economic factors. Only the technical factors such as air humidity etc. Now, when social and economic factors are taken into consideration the astronomers are shown to be hypocrits.
Well, this is the difference between a guy on Slashdot and the real world. Because you seldom build a facility using one and only one criteria. And as it turns out, when accessibility, altitude, weather and location are taken into account, the Hawaiian location is really hard to beat, given the other location's issues.
Regardless, your accusation of hypocritical Astronomers is interesting. You need to study up on the ethics of the people opposing them in this case. The only people who can stand up for t
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Chile is not a third world shithole. It's actually one of the best places in the world to start a business.
In part that's because it's a country run by and for a relatively small a social and financial elite, which may not be to you taste, but is far from making it a "shithole". It's actually quite clean and comfortable if you're middle class, and an excellent place if you aspire to ascend from the middle class to the ranks of the wealthy. If you're poor, expect to work hard without much chance of advanc
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Well, it wasn't a problem the previous 12 times a telescope has been built there.
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I just invented tacos!
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I agree. I also wonder what this religious claim was about. I mean what have these particular people who wanted to block it ever contributed to greater human knowledge of the Cosmos?? Exactly shit? That's what I thought. How then can they have any legitimacy stopping a project as significant as this?