Feature:Geek Jobs 301
The following was written by Slashdot Reader Joseph Walsh
Getting a Geek Job
A few days ago, I was enjoying the hum of the half dozen servers in my office when I decided to do a quick check of the online job search engines. I wanted to know whether there were any worthwhile jobs listed. So I went to one of the larger job search sites, and typed in Linux. No luck. Java? Nope, not without a whole lotta web site design skills. C? Not unless I was willing to master a half dozen semi-dead languages before applying. Sigh.
So I plugged in my current position's buzzwords -- Novell NetWare, WordPerfect, GroupWise, Windows 95, Paradox. Plink! A job description popped up that fit me pretty darned well. They were looking for someone to run a Novell NetWare LAN who also knew WordPerfect and Paradox. And they were willing to pay at least 20% more than my current employer!
After pressing the "submit resume" button, up popped an email. Ah, okay. They wanted an email. So I composed a nice cover letter (pointing out the strong correlation between my skills and the job requirements) and attached a copy of my resume. Of course, the attachment was in WordPerfect format, which made sense to me in light of the fact that WordPerfect was listed as a required skill. (Those of you who are more familiar with this process are no doubt groaning at my nievete'.) I didn't expect to hear anything back, but I thought I might as well give it a shot, right?
A couple of days passed, and I essentially forgot about the whole thing. But last night, what should arrive in my in box but a response to my submission! I opened it up, expecting the standard "thank you for your resume; we'll keep it on file blah blah blah" letter. After all, I have a degree in Human Resources Management, so I have some idea how this stuff works.
Which is why I was rather surprised to find that, instead of a standard acknowledgement letter, I got a one-liner which read in its entirety:
doc or rtf
The brevity of this missive puzzled me. What did this person mean? Is it some sort of garbled language, or a dialect with which I am not familiar? I made my living as a freelance writer for a while, so I pride myself on being able to figure out the written word. But this had me stumped.
Then I remembered my attachment. It was in WordPerfect format, and this person seemed to want it to be in either Microsoft Word or Rich Text Format. When I realized that the file format of my resume was the cause of this brief email, I admit I became a little angry. But when I understood the whole situation, I was furious.
The situation is this: I submitted my resume in WordPerfect format to what turns out to be a temporary and permanent employment agency (as opposed to the actual prospective employer). As anyone who has changed jobs in the last decade knows, these agencies are becoming the gatekeepers of all jobs. Soon, no one who changes jobs will be able to do so without going through an agency of one sort or another.
That's all fine and dandy, except that the people who are employed as gatekeepers rarely have the knowledge required to accurately judge people in highly skilled professions, such as the computer field. So, this "doc or rtf" person, who can't figure out how to import a WordPerfect file into Word, who can't even write a civil and intelligible email, is deciding whether a prospective employer will ever see my resume. That frightens me.
From conversations with colleagues, my experience is not at all uncommon. It's necessary to please these functionaries in order to get a job. And on top of that, there is often a Human Resources Information System at some point in the process (I should know; I implemented the one at my current place of employment). That HRIS will likely be used to automatically scan resumes, then only those which are buzzword compliant will be looked at by humans. The rest will be summarily thrown in the bit bucket. So if the HR person at the company to which you have applied is looking for someone who has "JDBC" on their resume, while you have "Java Database Connectivity" or even "Java Data Base Connectivity", you're out of luck. No human will ever see your resume.
And even if a human did see it, he or she probably won't be someone who is qualified to judge you or your accomplishments. It will almost certainly be a functionary who can barely operate a computer, who might have a list of buzzwords and terms given to them by some pointy haired boss. If those terms aren't on your resume, forget about getting a job at that particular company.
Once all of the above had gone through my head, I got a wee bit depressed. I started to question whether I wanted to continue in this industry. How else should a sane person feel when confronted with sheer insanity? Should he embrace it, or run away from it?
But, before I give up, I'd like to make a solid try at fixing this system. There just has to be a better, more reliable way for geeks to find jobs. Does one already exist? If not, can we invent and enforce one?
How do we get ourselves out of this idiotic morass?
Good experiences too.. (Score:1)
But I guess I probably was lucky - I've had my share of bad experiences with agencies too. My suggestion is that once you find an agency that treat you well, and that actually get you a job, get back to them directly when you want to switch jobs again. Tell them what type of job you want, and how much pay you require before you're willing to consider changing jobs.
As long as your demands are within reach, and the agency is good, they will get back to you when they find a suitable client. And as long as you find an agency that get a percentage of what the client pay you (not out of your pay check of course), they will be more than happy if you indicate how much you want, and will tell you if you go lower than you should.
As long as your skills are interesting, visiting a few agencies in person and request an interview, and present yourself, and your resume, can be worthwhile. Tell them what kinds of job you want, how much money you want, and ask them to get back to you if they have anything suitable. Make them understand that you have talked to other agencies too.
Re:Perks? (Score:1)
1. the 401k: how much do they match? Is it up to the legal max, 1:1? It should be. Beware of really long times to vest (that is the point at which the money that they contributed becomes yours) -- places with high turnover tend to push the vesting as far forward as they can to pay out as little as they can, and this is a sign that the company sucks so hard that people are leaving like rats off of a sinking ship. Also, beware of matching in stock -- cash is king, unless you work for a company like Dell (and sometimes even if you do).
2. employee stock purchase plans and/or bonus plans/profit sharing: Normally one or the other (stock purchase if the company is public, profit sharing if private). Both, if you are lucky OR both plans are so small that you cannot hope to get any additional money out of it (a bonus of $200 at the end of a year would be less than
3. raises: How much, when, and based on what. A yearly raise that is less than inflation is worthless -- note how much it is after inflation. Similarly, look at whether or not the raise depends upon a perfect score on evals, and then ask how often do people get those perfect scores -- they should have a solid number. If they do not or get squirelly, then the
perfect eval" deal is what they use to give no one a raise (i.e., there will always be "something" that keeps the score from being perfect, so sadly no raise).
4. really aggressive employee empowerment/sexual harassment programs: If they care that much, then something is very wrong already and they are setting up these programs instead of fixing the problems (psychotic/grabby bosses; instead of firing them, they "empower" the employees). Don't do it -- it will be a snakepit.
5. really aggressive EOE/affirmative action programs: This doesn't work with programming. Either you can or can't. You will be picking up someone else's slack if you can and they can't (but were hired to fill a quota). These places also tend to be as paranoid as #4. Not worth your time. Really and seriously. And, if you are a minority (Mexican, naturalized, and a woman, like me, for instance), this will make you bitter because you will discover the wonderful feeling of being watched by everyone all the time to see if you can actually do the work.
6. "family-oriented" companies: Look, I like kids, but I dislike doing other peoples' work. I have friends at companies who also have no kids and they are doing damned near all the work after 17:00 because everyone with kids has split, with the blessings of the company, without finishing the work. Guess who gets to stay? Right. Those of us without kids.
Basically, look for a no-BS kind of place. Trust your first impressions. Always ask to see the floor or the machine room -- do people look angry or tired or paranoid? And expect that you might take a while to get it right.
Re:get an MBA or an MS (Score:1)
I would get the MBA. It helped me. Here is why:
I spent about ten years wondering why management was so clueless. I knew (and was proven right over and over again) what I was doing. My mangers didn't. Either they were technical and really in need of being put out to pasture or they were non-technical and entirely too suceptible to the blandishments of salespeople.
After a while, it occurred to me that an MBA was the way to become someone at the level above me who made those decisions.
My grades were pretty good, I did well on the GRE (and GMAT too, I think; I know I should remember, but I don't). I got into a few MBA programs and picked the best of the lot.
I am now in the position to do The Right Thing all the time and I know how to justify it in financial terms and risk management terms thanks to the MBA. You have no idea how incredibly satisfying that it. I feel like I am on the side of the angels and I get to work early every day. I am being paid to Do It Right The First Time, and I love it.
The MBA was of questionable utility, but some of the classes (the entrepreneur stuff, the finance and risk management, and the accounting) was just so key. I wish that I had had it a few years ago.
And I don't dislike people. I just like my kind of people (quiet, efficient introverts). Happily, I have about twenty of them right now and we get along well. In fact, I have people trying to get transfered into my group all the time. It just isn't that hard to treat adult like adult.
I would do the MBA just for the satisfaction of having replaced a pointy-haired boss.
What I would not do:
1. Do not do one of those "Techno-MBA" programs. I am not from Texas, but The University of Texas at Austin apparently has been pushing this hard. Locally they are well-loved. But the "Techno-MBA" people are not technical and also have far fewer MBA skills. We don't hire them. I don't know who would. Stanfors (I think) is doing something similar. I don't see the point. If you have the technical background, do not take a single "technical" course in the MBA program. You have this. You are here for the stuff you don't have.
2. Do speak to the data center managers directly. I have helped get hired two people who called me directly, with MBAs. I had to walk their applications through HR, but I got them hired them. I am not the director (and I am not sure about getting HR here
3. Do start the job search early -- it took me 18 months, and I would have been hungry for six of those if I had been counting on a job right out of school (I wasn't, and had saved accordingly).
4. Do assume that the MBA will cost twice as much as you think and assume that you won't be able to get loans. I saw lots of people get blindsided by the cost of books, the inaccessibility of financial aid, and the cost of clothes, cabs, and so on.
5. Do think about where you want to be. An MBA is not a substitute for carreer planning and a lot of people make that mistake.
It was annoying and long, but I think it was worth it. It lets you finally do what you wanted to all along. If that is magic for you, then do it. If not, look at why you thought it was good and see if you really wanted something else.
HTML, the true universal format (RTF is a pain) (Score:1)
Of course, there's potential for truly awful resumes, replete with japascript, BLINK tags, annoying animated GIFs, etc. Stick to basic HTML, though and you should do fine.
Hire me pleeeeeeeease!
resume goes here.
read... this... quickly... between... blinks... or... it... won't... make... sense...
If... you... hire... me... I'll... tell... you... how... to... stop... this... accursed... blinking... muhahah.... hahahahaha.....hahahah!!!!
From Scientific Placement's President..... (Score:1)
- Recruiting firms are as different as restaurants in terms of approach, market focus, caliber of employees, contract or permanent, local or national (or international), etc. A bad experience at The Olive Tree doesn't suggest that you should swear off restaurants or that you'll get a bad steak at the Outback Steakhouse. A lousy hamburger at a drive-in restaurant doesn't mean you'll get a poor meal at Emeril's.
- It is a priority for our recruiters to understand as much about the technology as they can. We have them organized into technology focused specialty groups with that in mind. However, many geek resumes are loaded with acronyms and terminology specific to an application or product (so it isn't always easy). A young recruiter in our Windows group would recognize terms like MFC and C++ but might not have a clue about a resume with terms like MVS or Algol.
- Recruiters aren't the best way to go for everyone. For example, there is a posting here about someone looking for a specialized position in a small town in rural Mississippi. I wouldn't expect a national recruiting firm to spend a lot of time digging out that sort of job. Recruiters are not well suited for entry level recruitment because the college placement offices offer a competing free service to the employers.
- Before sending your resume to a recruiter you might check them out a bit. Their web site might be a good place to start. How long have they been in business? How many employees do they have (note: if they have 2,000 job postings on DICE and Usenet but only 3 employees that might be a clue). Do they have a focus on the type of techology you're experienced with? Are they contract or perm? Are they going to place you themselves or put you into a multiple-list style resume sharing pool used by many recruiters? Do they do much in your skill category (eg: If you're a tech writer you should look for a recruiter that places tech writers).
One thing you can't do by email is assess their style. Are they pushy sales types or more laid back with a service orientation. You might get a hint from their web site and a phone call could be a good idea. They're going to ask you a lot of questions. Why not ask them a few of your own before turning over your resume? What does their resume look like?
If you do get hooked up with a good recruiter they should be able to give an idea as to your marketability and whether your objectives are attainable (salary, location, job category and responsibilities). A good recruiter should be able to critique your resume and make suggestions for improvements. A larger firm will be exposed to actual data on salary offers and should have a feel for what's possible. A good firm should also be able to help you sort out companies. If they work in a specialty niche market they should have a feel for employer reputations (eg: sweatshop, frequent layoffs, good stock options, lots of young guys in managements, flextime, whatever).
My main point here is that it is a big world out there with more companies than you can count. It wouldn't be possible to interview all of them. Sure you can find them on your own but will you have the time and energy to sort them out. If one of them is known for low salary offers do you want to find that out the hard way?
We've got 50 employees and have a tough time keeping on top of the high tech world (it is huge and changes constantly). We make an effort to hire really good career type employees and to train them in the technology but they're not engineers and they have a steep learning curve. One way we deal with the complexities is by specialization -- focusing on niche markets. We're into the R&D segment -- commercial shrink wrap software companies, computer companies, peripherals and network products companies --- mainly software engineers and hardware design engineers ---mainly permanent as opposed to contract.
Whew!
David A. Small, President
Scientific Placement, Inc., 800 Tully, Suite 200, Houston, TX 77079
281-496-6100 Fax: 281-496-0373
eMail: das@scientific.com
http://www.scientific.com
Email still isn't taken seriously (Score:2)
I have had some stunning replies from Customer Service departments of major corporations that would have gotten someone fired if they'd sent it on hard copy. So many companies are still getting used to email as an internal communications tool and they don't realize that it should be a legitimate external communications tool also.
Prerequisites (Score:1)
Sure I'm exaggerating (I really saw one post that would pay $30k for an expert in everything), but it's the basic scheme. I've spent some time resetting people's passwords in Windows and the like, and now I'm mighty ready for something more interesting. Even for lowly Jr Admin jobs I get passed over by someone with 5 years experience (I'd think after 5 years you'd be at least mid-level?). The recruiters that post on the job web sites (do any direct hire companies post jobs there?) get the list of buzzwords and number years experience from a company (to replace me, my boss requested someone with 10 years NT experience), then do a search and send a form letter to the matches. Very few of them have actually looked at my resume on the board; instead just spit an email saying "Send me your resume in Word format." Then they call (or I call them), they find I haven't done squat professionally in Unix and hang up, err put me "on file." Lather, rinse, repeat.
Ah well, I've got to see a couple contracting firms this afternoon. Hopefully I'll be able to woo one of them into believing that I am damned intelligent.
Re:And they can't open a pdf (Score:1)
Re:HR people use Word - deal with it (Score:1)
A counterpoint (Score:1)
Advice for you:
- Use whatever format they request, if they didn't request a particular format, the job was for WordPerfect, and you submitted a
If you've ever worked help desk, or known somebody who did, I'm certain you understand that.
- Remember that a recruiter works for you, not vice versa. If you don't feel comfortable with them, get a new one. There are thousands of choices, I personally went through three until I found a recruiter I felt comfortable trusting the future of my career with.
- Remember there are lots of jobs. I mean, LOTS of jobs. Don't focus on the fact that you're losing this job with a juicy raise due to the fact you won't work this recruiting firm, focus on finding a new recruiting firm, you'll be much happier in the end.
Advice for the recruiters:
- You'll do the best long-term by making people happy and remembering that without those placements, you don't get any commissions. Despite the fact that 80% of all resumes are trash, don't assume that the one that came in
- Learn how to open WordPerfect documents with word. If you can't do that, compose a polite form letter explaining the situation and ask for a DOC, RTF or a Fax.
Perks? (Score:1)
- Basically no dress code
- Free soda fountain
- Monthly company-sponsored TGI Friday's parties with free beer and food
Are there any other perks I should look out for in an employer?Alex Bischoff
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Re:These agencies are a bit out of hand... (Score:1)
> www.techjobsdirect.com, where smart
> people could bypass all this broker/agency
> nonsense.
Hmmmmm.... wouldn't your website then be the
source of the middleman/broker/agency nonsense?
Re:Middleman missives (Score:2)
Re:Text Only is the best (Score:2)
Of course all that resume shopping wasn't how I ended up getting a job in the end...
-E
What color is your parachute? (Score:3)
For example:
1) Go directly to the person responsible for hiring
2) Ask said person for 5 minutes of their time. Give your 5 minute spiel, then say "I see my 5 minutes is up, thank you for your time". (I used this and it worked).
3) Networking networking networking (people that is). It's probably very hard at the 20-25 yr old age, but it works.
Plus there were chapters on why you want to change, finding the best job for you, negotating salary and benefits, etc.
"What's PostScript?" (Score:1)
Since I don't have Word or even WP running on my Linux machine, I coded up my resume straight in PostScript. I sent it out to people saying "This file is suitable to be sent directly to most laser printers..."
Every single response back to me said things like "Can't open your file" (don't then, just send it to the printer) or "Please submit in Word format" (for a Unix job?).
I knew there would be some idiots; I actually counted on it as a filter for people I wouldn't want to work for. What I didn't count on was that EVERY SINGLE HIRING PERSON OUT THERE is a moron.
---
Put Hemos through English 101!
Geek Jobs (Score:1)
Looking for qualified workers is the hardest task facing companies in the high-tech field. Unfortunately, as a manager, I can only spend a short amount of time going through resumes because most of my time is spent doing my job. That is why we use recruiters. And most recruiters suck. I have received resumes that have had so many spelling mistakes and grammatical errors that I have posted them on the office bulletin board for everyone to laugh at. And these have come via a recruiter. The best source for finding new employees is internally. Train people up to fill the more demanding positions. Then use word-of-mouth referrals, at least that way you can be fairly sure that the potential new hire isn't psycho.
When I have applied for jobs I tend to try and fax my resume. It may cut down on the number of places I can apply to, but at least I know that the person can read it. In the Bay area check out the listfoundation.org web for really good leads ( I found a couple of jobs from it when I lived in California). Is there an equivalent to it in New York City?
The best companies to work for are the ones that have good internal HR departments, they probably also pay on time and don't drop the ball when it come to insurance, 401K etc.
Re:Personal Experience (-> a solution) (Score:1)
The professor for a college writing course I took was a consultant for Novell, sorting out which people they should interview. The number one thing he looked for: proper format of the resume. Novell figured anyone who wasn't smart enough to find out what the expectations were before doing something wasn't worth hiring (not a bad point). So he first threw out any resumes on unusual paper, too many pages, etc. Then he checked for the needed sections of the resume (too many people sent incomplete info). Lastly, he scanned the resumes for "power words" which applied to the job (C, Java, Netware, etc.). Thus a non-computer user had full control over who did and didn't get interviewed. And every company has different requirements for resumes, which, in the case of a large company, are very clearly defined.
How can we get around this? Easy answer: find out what's expected! The best way would be to hire someone who reviews resumes to help write one for us. If I were to apply to work at Novell (I'm not going to) I would pay that professor to write my resume.
Re: Agree - onlin job listings are bogus (Score:1)
I completely agree with the previous comment: use your people networks to get jobs. Don't waste your time sending in resumes to online job postings. Better, post your resume (with the right key words) and let them come to you.
Here in Silicon Valley, where you think the companies would have a clue -- none of my friends (or myself) who has responded to an online job listing has ever gotten any response other than (sometimes) an email form letter. I sent in applications to Cisco, HP, 3COM and didn't get so much as an email back. Companies don't realize that it actually pisses people off worse, to have online job listings that imply responsiveness, only to discover you've totally wasted your time trying to follow their stupid mandated application process. I found my new job through personal connections, and I'll never waste my time applying online again unless I already have an "in."
forget mailing resumes... nothing beats networking (Score:1)
And I don't mean in the geek sense. People are simply more likely to hire people they know, or that their friend or colleague knows. In fact, most companies pay employees a pretty decent referral bonus.
Re:Putting a resume on your web page (Score:5)
This is great for college students, but if you're working, I highly suggest putting your resume up, but WITHOUT any phone numbers. Most recruiters I've dealt with have been annoying as hell, calling me at work, telling the front desk that they are "returning my call" even though I've never talked to them, so they will be passed through. But since I revised my resume, put only my home address and NO phone numbers, only an e-mail address for contact, it is much more managable. Here are a few tips I would suggest for people who want to put their resume's up and NOT be annoyed:
1) don't put any phone numbers on there. Only e-mail addresses. That way, you can easily return messages and have it take up less time
2) if they call you at work, and you never put up a work phone number, DO NOT TALK TO THEM. Here's what they did, they looked at your resume, got your current employment's number from directory service, and are xcontacting you a way you did not ask for. This should always be highly discouraged.
3) if the recruiter tells you they heard about you from someone who highly recommended you, 9.9 times out of 10, they are lying. Recruiters usually say things like this to make you believe that they are really interested in you... if you ask who refered you and they refuse to tell you, guess what...?
4) do NOT answer any questions about your current business, how many employees are working there, what they do, etc. Tell them if they are that interested in your company, you can refer them to a sales person, tell them you do not want to answer too many questions about your business which can get you introuble for non-disclosure. Trust me, they have no qualms about being unnecessarily nosy. Most likely, they are probing you for info so they can decide to target other employees at the company who you work with for recruitment as well.
5) if they want a resume submitted to them by fax or mail, that is ok... however, tell them you want to know who they are recruiting for if you give them that. If they refuse, they are wasting your time. The best recruiters I've dealt with told me whom they are recuiting for and what the job is within one or two e-mails to them.
6) Always have an enemy or a wate-of-time's e-mail address or contact information infront of you, so if you get a recruiter who just annoys the hell out of you, you can say, "I am not at all interested, but let me give you the contact information for someone who might be." In one case, I explained to someone I wasn't interested, and they proceeded to tell me how I really was and I just didn't know it, so I explained it to them a little more forcefully, and highly suggested they contact the career center at my previous university. I knew this would be a waste of time for them, so
All in all, from my experience I still think the best way to find your dream jobn is the old fashioned way --- either know someone, or send in a resume to a company directly using newspaper adds or with a job fair. Most of the time, recruiters are going to be a waste of your time and energy.
-- Dahakbert
Problem (Score:1)
Re:Suits (Score:1)
Some individuals choose their ego which knows only fear. Others choose from a higher road and new opportunities can blossom because of the risk.
This week I interviewed two individuals for a electronic/computer job. Some knowledge of both areas are required. One individual who had his BS in physics thought that everything was a joke. The other individual did not complete college because of money issues but was intent on understanding the functions he would be doing... He is returning this Friday for an interview with the President of our company.
I can understand that the first guy may have been nervous but his replies were continual "off-the-cuff" remarks rather than selling himself.
I handed him a 10k 5% resistor and he only vaguely knew that the value was color coded on it. He had no idea about gates (nands & nor's (not Bill))nor how a flip-flop worked.
And yet he tried to sell himself by being cute rather than knowledgable as if he was above knowing the basics.
I will take someone with desire to excel everytime over someone with paper on the wall. Our company will give this young individual a path for personal progression that will last for good long time.
The employement agency who sent them over was surprised with the choice made. The general manager and the sales manager of our company both agreed that the desire was there and that he would make an excellent employee even though he is not degree'd.
I guess that the employment agency sent over the person they wanted for the job (physics major) and then someone else to make him look good, but in this case it backfired on them.
Both individuals used their choice to determine the outcome of the interviews. Choice was all that they had... one used it wisely and the other did not. The first week of July, one will have a job and the other will not.
Online resume is the best. (Score:1)
So anyway, to filter out similarly unaware companies, I put my resume online as a HTML page and then gave myself the firm rule that all I would ever send to people, on paper or e-mail is the URL that points at it. Any place that either (1) didn't have the ability to figure out what to do with it, or (2) didn't have the time to have a human read a resume before rejecting it, would be somewhere I wouldn't enjoy working. It worked. Now I found a job I actually like and have been here for 2-3 years with no intention of leaving soon.
What clear instructions? (Score:1)
The answer is that they all expect Doc or RTF. I tried to suggest PDF as a portable, cross-platform alternative and they hadn't even heard of it.
--
Employ me! Unix,Linux,crypto/security,Perl,C/C++,distance work. Edinburgh UK.
Recruiters can't always see websites (Score:1)
I eventually found out that their corporate firewall prevented them from viewing external websites.
Stupid, or stupid?
--
Employ me! Unix,Linux,crypto/security,Perl,C/C++,distance work. Edinburgh UK.
The Hacker Recruitment Agency (Score:1)
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Employ me! Unix,Linux,crypto/security,Perl,C/C++,distance work. Edinburgh UK.
PDF has a published specification (Score:1)
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Employ me! Unix,Linux,crypto/security,Perl,C/C++,distance work. Edinburgh UK.
gatekeepers (Score:1)
get an MBA or an MS (Score:1)
Of course, I have always had the luxury of ignoring agencies and talking directly to my prospective boss. I'm not planning on changing these habits in the near future.
As a receiver of resumes, I delete any attachments (Score:5)
like asking them to throw your resume in the
wastebasket.
I've had to sort through piles of incoming resumes
and this is how it goes on the receiving end:
1. Garbled attachments (delete)
2. BinHex'd attachments (damn Mac users - delete)
3. doc files (I don't have Word and I'm not
impressed by you doc formatting skills - delete)
4. WordPerfect attachments (are you kidding me? - delete)
5. doc files with macro virus (oh why thank you,
get a virus scanner you friggin' putz! DELETE)
The best ways to send a resume online:
1. Plain text in an email message
2. URL where the resume is posted online
Re:Solution: Slashdot Jobs (Score:1)
If there's one thing I've learned about Slashdot it's that the average poster is just that... average. There's nothing special about the communication skills of the geeks coming and posting to this site.
How I love finding work. (Score:1)
The agencies I've dealt with, and it always seems to be the same three or four agencies here in MN, just can't find people who know what they're dealing with. That simple fact has made my life hell over the last year. Of course I applied at Red Hat, Penguin, and VA just for kicks and didn't get a response either. So maybe I just suck.
Re:The suits were the geeks till they wised up (Score:1)
Bunk I say, Bunk! (Score:1)
Re:Recruiters can't always see websites (Score:1)
With AOL.
He said he used to be a techie...
Re:HR people use Word - deal with it (Score:1)
So, now, in order to get a job in Unix (any flavor), I need to pay the MS tax? When in reality, an employer (as opposed to a head hunter) who wants a Unix person should be happy that the applicant uses Unix at home?
UNIX at work (Score:1)
Linux is cheap, they should install that over Windows for the admins (or *BSD). In the places I've worked, my machine was for my use, and so whatever I wanted on it was fine. My preference is Linux. I also use it at home.
It seems odd to me that any company would want their Unix admins on anything but Unix!
Similar experience (Score:1)
Re:HR people use Word - deal with it (Score:1)
Personally, I see this as just another situation where the potential employee who knows what "works" on his resume will get the job. Resume classes offered by governmental HR agencies used to say "Keep it to 1 page, use this heading, bold here...", yadda yadda. In the near future, they'll have to say "Use the most common abbreviation or catchword for your language or skill", etc.
Just think of your resume as a document that has to be parsed by a particularly dumb and unforgiving filter (the agency) before going to the destination system (the employers desk), and adjust your document accordingly.
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rickf@transpect.SPAM-B-GONE.net (remove the SPAM-B-GONE bit)
Re:HR people use Word - deal with it (Score:1)
I've seen $8.50/hr data entry clerks who understand the basic concept of document importation.
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rickf@transpect.SPAM-B-GONE.net (remove the SPAM-B-GONE bit)
Re:They aren't all bad..... (Score:1)
He complains that they didn't accept his document format; I dare say the head hunter said to his buddies, "here's some dude who ignored our clear instructions on what formats we accept".
The state of the average recruiters database is such that, for the majority of positions, they will have hundreds of vague matches, and a few good ones - without computers to sift them (after all, this is what computers are good at) they wouldn't be able to do their jobs.
Of course, the recruitter with the best database searching technology is the one who'll get most of the commissions, so expect to see them set better, quickly. I wonder if any of them can afford to implement Autonomy [autonomy.com]?
Internet Job hunting isn't ALL bad. (Score:1)
Re:Geeks don't use Word, HR better deal with it (Score:1)
Re:HR people use Word - deal with it (Score:2)
I've been working for 15 years, some of it contract, some of it full time. I've changed jobs about 9 times in that 15 years. Believe me, I know how the game is played.
Re:Geeks don't use Word, HR better deal with it (Score:2)
I've been on both sides, the job hunter and the employer, and believe me, when you see the unqualified bozos that HR sends your way, you wish that more supposedly smart people knew how to play the HR game.
Re:Networking - It's not just for computers (Score:1)
Another thing to watch out for when using a recruiter is that they are motivated by which company will pay them well. I interviewed at Cisco through a recruiter, and he spent a long time on the phone with me trying to convince me to take that job - I am now very happy that I didn't. I'm certain the reason he kept trying to convince me that it was right for me was that he would have gotten paid big $$$ if I went there. He never got me an interview at a small company that I was much more interested in - I'm pretty sure it was because he didn't try hard enough because they don't pay him as well as Cisco would have.
Same Experience (Score:2)
Hardly any (I can't recall 1) accepted it, and instead wanted "Word 95". Bah. So I complied. I complained, but I complied. I even wrote to a contractor magazine to say how ridiculous it was to apply for hi-tech jobs and have PDF be turned down. "Surely there are Unix sysadmins out there with no way to create a Word 95 document" I thought. But even the letter to the magazine got flamed by an old-timer for me to just "deal with it".
Well now I send out my CV in HTML, or point them to my web site. It's funny - Microsoft has actually done me a service there - with either Word or IE (or Netscape) they can always open my CV. Fine. But it's not the ultimate solution to the CV problem.
My CV is actually stored in XML. The resulting HTML is dynamically generated each time you view it (by a perl script called xmerge which does XSL-T template style operations). What I really want to be able to do is submit my CV in XML. This way both the client and the agent can extract much more detailed information that they want, or ignore that detail. Then we need some sort of search engine that can match CV's up to job postings - also created in XML. That's coming. It's the work of the XML-HR (now HRMML) group at http://www.structuredmethods.com/ [structuredmethods.com] to bring us that technology. Note that my CV XML DTD isn't the one used by HRMML, but one I invented myself, because it's simpler and more appropriate for contracting (IMHO). Ultimately I may merge my work with HRMML.
For more info, see my CV stuff on sergeant.org [sergeant.org]. Or mail me direct at matt@sergeant.org for more info, and details of how to post a web page providing your CV in XML and have the HTML output produced by my script off my server.
Matt.
perl -e 'print scalar reverse q(\)-:
Re:HR people use Word - deal with it (Score:1)
I attached a text file and emailed it in.
"Sorry, that file you sent is all garbled up, I can't read it. Please send it in Word format next time."
I attached a text file, selected a different encoding method, and emailed it in.
No response.
A few days later, "Are you going to resend your resume, or should I conclude you're not interested?" They apparently managed to completely lose the email.
I attached a text file copy of my resume, *and* pasted the entire contents of the resume into the email itself.
No response. They apparently managed to lose this email as well.
"I'm still waiting for your resume, are you going to send it?"
I send the resume. Again. In plain old ASCII text format. And I paste the resume into the body of the email. Again.
"I got the email you sent me, but it is still all garbled up when I try to open it in Word, just like the first time. Just send me a Word file, please."
This person apparently does not know what a scroll bar is, has never heard of plain-text documents, and likely would not believe me if I told her about them. So I reply that I don't have Word and can't send that format, and would something else - say, HTML or PDF - be acceptable?
"No, just send me it in Word format."
At this point I decide that an employment agency which expects me to spend $500 on software I don't need in order to spare them the effort of learning how to open a plain-text file is just plain not worth dealing with.
-Mars
Re:Techies Unite! (Score:1)
I'd find another profession before joining a programmer's union.
-Mars
Re:As a receiver of resumes, I delete any attachme (Score:1)
Recently, I've found that no matter what, they'll ask for your resume in Word
Re:HR people use Word - deal with it (Score:1)
"Hey, did you know that I have to pay Microsoft to get a job?"
A slightly better experience... (Score:1)
Also, while I'm sure a *lot* of companies out there have lame hiring practices, at least the Large Multi-national Corporation I'm now working for doesn't... The person who had the final decision in hiring me was a techie recently enough that he could appreciate my background. (The job I'm in is almost all HP-UX, and I'd never touched HP-UX before my first day on the job. I did have experience with Linux, Solaris, SCO (@#%$!), etc. though.) He also didn't make a decision without letting the people I now work with see my resume and later talk to me, so they could have some input on what they thought of my skills and attitude. Overall, it seemed like an excellent way to hire somebody. I'm incredibly happy with my job (and the people I work with) because of it.
(Now, if only I didn't have to drive 72 miles one way to work, my life would be perfect...)
Re:Linux user group = hiring hall (Score:1)
Of course, if somebody would like to make an offer...
Re:Your so right. (Score:1)
People are so afraid to leave any kind of document trail in case a prospect turns out to be a "no."
similar experience (Score:1)
I too have had very similar experiences, the last one just yesterday. Your submittal is quite timely.
Should you get out? hell no.
Personally, I am just going to work on making my resumes more buzzword compliant, as well as dumb down the details.
My recent experience came from my repeated use of aparently obscure tech terms like "Perl", "CGI", "Apache" in my resume. Despite applying for a specifically Perl/Apache/CGI web position, the "gatekeeper" had to ask me:
"do you know CGI web programming"
I expect your story will induce some to submit their own tricks for getting resumes past the barely-qualified "gatekeepers". I know I could use a few tips.
good luck!
Tried recruiters and gave up (Score:4)
I gave up on the suit and tie resume job hunting shit and went to the local state employment center here. After a few weeks of checking in with them, she finally picked up the phone to call someone, "I think I have the person you are looking for." They got me what seemed like a decent job at a local manufacturing plant. I interviewed with an engineer, took the employment test and heard back a month later they wanted me to start the next day. I kept getting reviews and rewards every few months until my 40 hrs/week salary matched those of my engineering degree holding buddies.
I enjoy the hell out of my job. My resume didn't get me here, but the usual approach that any normal worker tries. I would say showing up unemployed at the employment center got me a good job. The job I have gives me 100% vesting, all the paid overtime I want, paid vacations, insurance, and job security. Its a good feeling working with older, more mature people as they don't quit, but retire or die.
Re:Personal Experience (Score:1)
My current project, the MEMS Exchange [mems-exchange.org], is looking for good developers, and placement services aren't much help, because the people we've interviewed often seem to be clueless. (Write me if you'd be interested -- we're in the DC area, and are a research-oriented non-profit.) We've had horrifying experiences where a candidate's CV looked good, but it all fell apart at the interview, where we found they couldn't write pseudocode for reading a file line-by-line. If we knew a person could at least design and code reasonably, because we knew they'd maintained a non-trivial software package, that would be a good foot in the door. Similarly, a while back Digital Creations [digicool.com] got a bunch of new employees, hiring practically everyone who had done a significant project using Zope [zope.org]. This is another good reason to hack on free software; it can earn you a reputation, and that reputations can lead to better offers and more interesting jobs.
Re:HR people use Word - deal with it (Score:2)
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Re:Solution: Slashdot Jobs (Score:1)
there is one that's been set up, that you can find from UserFriendly, called Geek Finder. [geekfinder.com]
It could certainly use more jobs, (i'm hoping to relo to the east coast myself) but it does exist, so might see if they'd like to combine....
I got lucky (Score:1)
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
My experiences have been decidedly mixed... (Score:1)
First of all, my old position was running the network at an ad agency south of Boston. I liked it there a lot, but it was a family business, so I had no real chance of moving into real management (that's been my goal for a long time) and, though it was fun, the hours were grinding (10-12 hour days and more were the norm) and the commute was horrible (I live on the North Shore of Boston - the commute was 1-2 hours each way on a good day). Anyhow, I supported Macs, NT servers, a few PCs, and about 100 users, and I had a support guy and a web/database guy working for me.
The first agency I spoke to was a specialist in Mac skills and "creative" types. They seemed like decent sorts who understood my desire to move into a more management-related permanent job that was closer to home. Well, all they ever called me for were hourly jobs as a NT Administrator. The insulting part, of course, was that they wanted me to move to contracting for less $$, when I explicitly told them I was only interested in a permanent position. But I guess that contracting is more lucrative for them so they try to push as many bodies as possible that way.
So I mentally killfiled them (Ironically, almost two years later, I just got an email from a person there. Guess what they wanted to know if I was interested in... At least this one was permanent!) and tried a different agency - one of the biggest ones up here in Boston who handles tech jobs in general along with contract and other office work jobs. They were marginally more helpful, and I went on two actual interviews that were reasonably close fits to my needs. One of them was even in my town, though a little farther off base than what I really wanted. The problem I saw is that they pigeonholed me as a "Mac Guy", where I saw my Mac skills as just a piece of the puzzle. I lost interest in them after about 4 months - they were losing interest in me, too by then.
Finally, in early 1998, I talked to one more recruiter Lynx, as I mentioned earlier). I felt very comfortable with the recruiter I was meeting with, and he promised up and down that he wouldn't bug me with junk. I told him about my previous experiences with recruiters, and was assured that this would be better.
Yeah right, I thought...
Well, about two months went by without a peep - so I figured they were useless, but at least they weren't bugging me with junk the way the other two had. Then, at the end of March, he finally called me with:
A job managing the network group at a decent-sized company (bigger than my old one, but not too big) in my town! After a busy Easter weekend of interviews and debate, the deal was done - a better job, more responsibility, a nice salary bump, and the commute I craved. And I'm there now and quite happy to boot.
Now that was a good experience with a recruiter. No B.S., and the only call I got from them was for the right job. The key, I think, is to try and find one who specializes in tech work and to interview them as much as they interview you. If you don't feel they know what they're doing, tell them not to bother with you, you'll take your business elsewhere. They don't have to know how to do CGI programming, but they do have to know what it is. Remember, the good ones want to make the right matches - they get paid for it if they're any good. And they need you a lot more than you need them.
Re:Word, Politics, Networking, and Buzzwords (Score:1)
Networking helps open doors or find other opportunities besides the wantads, placement agencies or Monster.com's. But someone still will want your resume/CV/portfolio and to talk to you before they just give you a job. Networking doesn't help much there now, does it?
The Proper Way - Support the Engineers (Score:1)
Both get money for finding you. Headhunters get a lot more. But, the engineers typically get from one to five THOUSAND dollars for every person they find that gets hired.
I've had the best luck by contacting engineers at the company I want to work for. Do some searching. Look through USENET and Slashdot for the company name. Look at the company directory. Find the name of an engineer.
Call the company and request that engineer. Tell him/her that you are thinking about applying to the company and want to know more about it. Offer to buy the engineer lunch. Most of the time, this will end up giving you your first informal interview.
Go to the lunch with your resume. If you like the engineer, give your resume to him/her. If you don't like the engineer, find another company and repeat. You don't want to work with people you don't get along with.
Once the engineer has your resume, he/she is now responsible for dealing with it. Generally this works out well because they have a couple thousand dollars invested in getting this resume to the proper person.
You end up with a good chance of getting seen, the engineer gets the bonus, the company doesn't have to pay a headhunter. Everyone's happy except the headhunters.
I work for one of those companies. You're right. (Score:1)
Recruiters, almost always, are paid by the placement. They deal in hundreds of resumes a week trying to find one or two placements so they can get paid. As a result, lots of stuff slips through.
My advice: put EVERYTHING on the resume. Acronyms and expanded names, alternate names for technologies, every project you've ever worked on and every technology you've ever seen in the last 10 years. Make sure it's all on there somewhere. The rule about fitting your resume on a page (or two) is utter bullshit. You will not get hired by anybody with a brief resume, no matter how much depth is behind it.
Details!
When building that resume, with everything on it, make sure you quantify your experience. If you've had exposure to a technology, make sure you mention that it's just exposure. If you completely grok a technology, note that too. When it comes time for the technical interview, or your first employer interview at the first hint that you do not live up to your resume--you'll be dropped and never looked at again. Nobody has time for apologies or helping you quantify your experience. Having exposure to UNIX means one thing, simply putting an unqualified "used UNIX" on your resume can mean quite another. Don't tell anyone you're a "UNIX System Admin" either--that doesn't mean jack squat by itself. Mention it, but tell them what you did.
The cost of getting rid of an employee far exceeds the cost of not having one to begin with. Employers are cautious, and recruiters don't want to get burned--they might not ever place with that employer again.
Typically, your resume is reformatted by a non-technical drone, and may be reformatted for each kind of prospective employer they send it to. By putting everything down your chances of getting the right information in front of the right employers increases dramatically.
[For the curious, the website listed above has my resume under the "business" section. It's gotten me lots of jobs without an interview, and has been pretty effective. And no, I'm not looking.]
Word, the bane of this industry (Score:2)
The problem for us is not that we want them in doc format, but that everyone sends that to us. The format is utterly irrelevant to us, all the recruits formatting is wiped out anyway in most cases. Plain text would be better.
Because of file format problems, we must maintain a "doc" version and an ascii version of every resume we get. At 25,000 - 30,000 resumes, the docs take up a lot of space, about 30 times what the text files take up. What a waste.
The solution is not simple (Score:1)
The point is that it is not feasible for companies to have someone who understands the tech and thus necessarily costing too much money, perusing the thousands of CV's that come in. Most don't even come close. So to cut down the load, they use cheap buzzword searches. Now you know it, put the buzzwords in! Don't be shy! Have a Skills section thats full of the buzzwords. My current position is the result of a successful buzzword hit.
There may be far more jobs than _suitable_ applicants, but remember that there are always way more applications than jobs. Like everything, you need to learn to play the game
Amen to geeks who can talk to the Suits (Score:1)
You know, when I was hired at my present place of work, it wasn't because I was the most qualified technically for the job. In fact, I was actually near the bottom of the list of "qualified" applicants. No, I got the job because, during the interview, I sat there with my soon-to-be boss and just talked about stuff with him.
From what I've seen, today's world generally demands that geeks not spend their lives in a cubicle answering Email and existing as just an email address to the Suits they despise so much. The fact of the matter is, I spend a good portion of my week (maybe 5-10 hours) meeting with DBA's, application managers, and upper management, discussing things that are going on in our department.
It's not easy, and it's not fun for a lot of geeks to sit down with a bunch of people that they can't talk about how cool this piece of code they wrote is because it makes all of these other functions perform 5 times better (because they really don't care about that level of detail), but you really need to learn how to hold your own with the Suits or you will be stuck at the bottom of the food chain pimping yourself on the latest consulting job for as much money as you can get. I don't plan on moving up to management myself, but I sure as hell will try to make myswelf invaluable to the management suits as a resource they can't do without; and without being able to talk to them, they'll never know if you're that resource.
Re:HR people use Word - deal with it (Score:1)
I got a job.... (Score:1)
If anyone is interested, I recorded how I got my first job in computing a couple of years ago at http://www.andrewcooke.fre e-online.co.uk/andrew/job.html [free-online.co.uk] (Preview seems to add a space in the middle of that, but the link works...)
Andrew
Jobs... (Score:1)
I found that having a diverse resume helps. I took a job a technical editor at a large pay cut from my normal rates however it is one of the big resons I got the interviews I'm currently going through.
I also list my weekend only ski instructor job... it appeals to the marketing drones!
"There is no spoon" - Neo, The Matrix
"SPOOOOOOOOON!" - The Tick, The Tick
My experience (Score:1)
Unless you're talking to someone in engineering or smarter, the person you're talking to isn't in the market for a real geek.
--G
Placement Services (Score:1)
>pay administrative assistants $30k a year or less to filter resumes but they will not serve you well.
Reminds me of one of my first encounters with a recruiter, a few years back. I was studying the Want Ads, & saw a well-known national temp agency was recruiting for people at Sequent. They listed a position that was equivalent to entry-level to mid-level Unix admin, something I was interested in, so I went over on my day off to turn a resume.
After a few misadventures with the receptionist, I got to talk with the recruiter, who looked over my resume, then pulled the list of posiitons Sequent wanted them to fill from his inbox & began to go down them.
``They are looking for an Administrative Assistant," he said in a hopeful voice.
I indicated that this was not the line of work I was interested in.
``Well, I don't know," he said uncertainly, ``we send them resumes for this position, & they don't like any of them. I don't know what they are looking for in their candidates."
Needless to say, they failed *MY* initial interview. I understand that Sequent eventually felt they weren't working out & sought their technical talent from another source.
Geoff
Document formats and fun... (Score:1)
Numerous times I've been requested to re-send as a word document so they can "Print it out." These people being incapable of printing out an e-mail, or even copying and pasting. I've also had at least on recruiter that, unable to copy and paste, printed the resume out (Thank god they could do that) and typed it by hand back into Word.
I think my other most amusing story was reformatting my resume into a headhunters 'style' for them. Because they weren't able to figure out how to include the actual needed information that was on my resume in their style.
Roogna
Resumes themselves will be obsolete (Score:2)
In the long run applying for a job should be a process of filling out an online questionnaire, chock full of check boxes and radio buttons summarizing your experience. The HR department on the other end can then compare resumes in the same format without resorting to OCR.
Of course there will be brand new annoyances with this procedure. For instance messages like "Your application is not complete. Please press the back button on your browser and complete the following items: Current Salary"
A good use of this technique would sort through candidates efficiently and notify them automatically that their applications had been received. Hopefully there would also be a few areas to actually type something about yourself that a person might actually read, but the added convenience of technology makes everything convenient, including screwing things up.
Eesh--the world is a strange place. (Score:1)
You'd think that, wouldn't you? Every document that I write, that needs something that isn't handled by straight text (usually Latin-1), I write in HTML, for exactly those reasons.
I recently got a call from someone who saw me listed at Brainpower [brainpower.com], and asked me to e-mail him a copy of my resume.
`I have it in HTML--is that alright?' I ask'd.
`Oh, no--no! Word or RTF, please!', he said.
I still find it very strange that he can't view HTML documents, especially if he found me through a web site....
The Chicken or the Egg? (Score:1)
Solution: Turn the tables on them. Make direct contact with the HR weenie and take charge from your end. After all, they don't get their commission if they don't place you.
How do you get out of this situation? (Score:1)
-- ----------------------------------------------
Vive le logiciel... Libre!!!
Recruiters CUT your possibilities. (Score:1)
The net effect is that most companies do not take time to evaluate on merrit, but trust the agency to get a paper qualified person.
I hate to say it, but I got my job the old fashoned way, I saw it in the classifieds. I was chosen from a field of 20, because I was the only one who had a clue about linux. I also maintain windoze clients. My only official certification was A+. I got in because I knew windoze REALY well, and could also maintiain their servers. It has been 4 months now, and I have been to chicago, NYC, ct, and michigan to fix their stuff, and soon I will be maintaining the e-comerce end of the business.
Small companes are the best, because they will take the time to make sure that the person fits the organization, and will take time to see if the person is a qick learner, which is a bigger asset to them than a harvard wanna-be.
"Fear is the mind-killer...fear is the little death."
Re:evolutionary tension (Score:2)
The only way this is going to improve is if the geeks take their business elsewhere. We need to set up our own CV databases and let them come looking for us.
How do I know this will work? First-hand experience.
There is already a web IT recruitment service in the UK at www.jobserve.co.uk. It works two ways: (a) they mail you a daily list of new jobs matching your chosem criteria; (2) you send in your CV and agencies, HR departments etc. who subscribe can search this big database of CV's. Don't forget to put in all those fashionable (buzz)keywords in acronym form and in full!
In the period of time for which I used the service I got more calls deriving from the CV I left on the database than I got from emailing my CV in response to particular jobserve ads.
Though if we some of us geeks were to set up something like this ourselves I strongly suggest that the home page says "NO AGENCIES" in large type.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
evolutionary tension (Score:4)
Yes, it's frustrating now - the environment is changing and the situation has not yet evolved to meet the new environment. This is an annoyance, yes, but a temporary one - the history of the world is driven by the resolution of such evolutionary tension.
You display your ignorance. (Score:2)
Go ahead and laugh, monkey boy. HP printers default (ie, bottom end of each line) to being PCL only, which is just fine for Windows users. As a rule only the HP *M (for Macintosh) or built-in networking machines support PostScript, not the regular HPs.
Recent experience attempting to hire someone... (Score:3)
Ok, my team just lost one of its senior guys to a startup opportunity. Despite the fact that we expect him to return in 3 months :), we need a new body. Hey, JavaONE was last week, and we need a java programmer!
So the problem exists from both sides. Yes, we use recruiters, but we much prefer to hear from individuals. The few times we get good old fashioned cover letters, they get shown around the team - "Hey, look! A cover letter! Let's get this person in here!" We run ads in the local paper -- yes, it's the old fashioned way, but it still works strangely enough.
I'm torn over whether I should do this...oh, what the heck, I'll just use hotmail. If you're a fairly senior geek (5+ years experience in the biz preferably), and have some project experience with server-side Java, preferably with an e-commerce slant, and are in the Boston area and looking for a job (and don't mind working with people who speak in run on sentences :)), let me know. duane_morin@hotmail.com [mailto]. A degree is not required, but it certainly helps. My boss actually prefers people who've got a degree in something other than CS (he likes em well rounded). We don't pay relocation (that I know of), so please don't write me from Florida if you don't plan on moving anyway. We do lots of Sybase here, so if you've got some of that, tell us. None of the above is written in stone (is it ever?) so if you're close, it can't hurt to write. But I'll tell ya, if you think you're good, but have got absolutely nothing to prove it, you can't really expect us to hire you.
Disclaimer: This ain't no startup, and I ain't even close to CTO, so I don't do the hiring. I just bring in the bodies.
d
Putting a resume on your web page (Score:4)
I've had my resume online since I had web space (about 3-4 years). Only recently I had to take it offline because I was getting too damned many calls (about 2 a day). However, when a friend of mine exhausted her real-world resources, I put her resume on my page, and within 2 days Microsoft called her (she didn't go, of course :)).
Re:Putting a resume on your web page (Score:4)
"So, are you looking?"
"No, thank you, I'm quite happy here."
"Oh, well, do you know anybody that's looking?"
"Nope, as a matter of fact if I did, I'd hire them, we've got openings."
"Oh, really??? What kind of openings do you have?
Instantly they go from wanting to place you somewhere else, to wanting to place someone else where you are. They've all got two faces.
Favorite recruiter story : After telling her no thank you and goodbye on the phone three times and her ignoring me, I hung up on her. I then got an email from her (turns out someone really *had* referred me) saying "I've never been hung up on before!" I told her she must not have been in the business long. Ironically, 3 months later I was looking, so I told my colleagues "Watch this. I could go over to her house and kick her dog, and she'd still love me and want to place me." Sure enough I called her and told her I was looking, and all bad feelings were forgotten.
The View from the Other Side (Score:5)
We get literally hundreds of resumes each week, by snail-mail, fax, and email. We probably ask for about 10-20 of those from potential candidates. The rest are unsolicited. Most are not for a specific position, just for "anything that fits my background". Most of the resumes are from unqualified people -- certainly over 80% of them are garbage.
Our Web site tells people exactly how to send resumes (plain text in the body of the email), yet we still get dozens of attachments in all formats -- Word, Word Perfect, PDF, HTML, even TIFFs of scanned resumes.
Given the following facts: (1) these resumes are unsolicted, (2) there's an 80% chance that they're trash, (3) the submitter can't follow directions, and (4) we have a couple hundred other resumes to process this week, we generally delete such resumes without even replying. We feel the chances are low that we're losing any good candidates this way.
On the other hand, the thread that says headhunters are morons has some truth, too. Their job is to do a buzzword-level screening of a large pool of candidates and bring a few to the client for in-depth interviews. They need to bring good candidates, but not necessarily the best ones. So if they can do that without the clerical overhead of doing a lot of document conversion, you can bet that's the route they'll take.
If you're applying for a job that's being filled through a search firm, here's what you need to do:
Middleman missives (Score:2)
They don't care if you actually fit the description of the job being filled, even if they do know what it is. One recruiter interviewed me for a "development" position, and when I discussed my programming skills, I was told "this isn't a programming job, it's a development job." My dumfounded reaction probably lost me points, too.
Personally, I think the whole job recruitment market is entirely upside down. I'm a recent college graduate trying desperately to find a decent job (i.e. something more educational than "Unix Schmuck," which is what a lot of available sysadm jobs ought to be called), and having a hard time.
The way recruitment works now is that these middlemen approach companies who have openings and then wrench a placement commission from the company when they fill the position. Which makes no sense to me. With the way my search is going, I'd be entirely willing to PAY a recruiter MYSELF to find just the type of job I want. If it were really the right job, I'd give them a percentage of my paycheck for my whole term of employment and then some. Why jerk around with companies that won't even call you back after an interview and recruiters, quite a lot of whom are freelance only trying to make a buck for themselves with no interest in actually making the employee OR the employer happy -- when I'm willing to hire someone myself to find a great job that really fits me?
Regards,
Similar Experience (Score:2)
I have been programming for 15 years. Perhaps that was my downfall. Had I been fresh out of school, I might have remembered the textbook definitions rather than what the terms *really* mean. The story has a happy ending though. I eventually landed an even better freelance consulting position. :-)
Thad
Re:Techies Unite! (Score:4)
Uhg what a repulsive thought! Unions are great if you are in a low skill job where the employer can treat you like a replaceable cog in the corporate machine, but if you are in a high skill / high demand field. Do you really want a union dictating wage scale based on seniority? Or making it near impossible to can the code monkey who is dragging down your project?
Personally, I LIKE the fact that I can work as a free agent, define my own work conditions and pay scale, and basically make out like a bandit for doing something I love to do.
Here is a major clue alert. It is a seller's market right now for programmers. YOU are calling the shots. Don't be afraid to ask for what you want.
Thad
This middleman is a poor interface layer. (Score:3)
From the side of the company, no matter how many ways we tell them we want someone competent at the enterprise level, they throw all sorts of near-entry level resumes at us. Misfits, rejects. People who you might want to change tapes for you. Our own technical interviews are far more enlightening.
From the side of the prospective employee, the recruiters get in the way. I recently visited a large jobs site to find some interesting jobs, but I couldn't get even a SIMPLE description of the job or the details without handing over the resume -- which means getting forever hounded.
I could do a lot better job of selling myself than these headhunters could. And even with them, it is difficult to sell yourself as a "signal" in a sea of "noise". They just don't know how to evaluate people. All they are interested in is pushing bodies through to get a commision... and I doubt that they have my true best interests at heart.
As for the company, they need to step up to the plate and have their own HR departments be more active in advertising and evaluation. These recruiting firms only thrive because HR isn't doing their job, so lower level managers have to work around the system.
The funny thing is that the headhunter/recruiting firms actually work AGAINST the companies that they find employees for. They recruit individuals away from their existing jobs. And once you are in the system, they'll be giving you a call back a year or two later, trying to move you somewhere else. And while they bring a new employee into the shop, they're talking to your other IT guys!
The value of headhunters, in most cases, isn't marginal. It is negative. They thrive on churn. They cost money. They provide poor service. The tight labor market and a poor HR department are the only two things that keep them afloat.
They aren't all bad..... (Score:2)
They are a pain but - much like estate agents - a requirement if your going to 'play the game'.
In my opinion it is much better to find an agency, go and see them, get to know them and keep in touch with them. That is the tactic I use and so far it has not let me down.
I know people will have different horror stories about agencies - I have heard many of them. I can only think that if we didn't have a way of finding all of the jobs that are available (even if it is just an agency) we would invent one.
Flame away.........
talk to your LUG... (Score:2)
also IMHO we need to talk to people in the industry, and help them understand us, etc. LUG's seem to be were to do this.
nmarshall
#include "standard_disclaimer.h"
R.U. SIRIUS: THE ONLY POSSIBLE RESPONSE
Re:Geeks don't use Word, HR better deal with it (Score:3)
I'll give good odds that this happens with Linux, BUT, it is a gamble - high risk, higher potential reward, as you'll be the only person with with that skill set when things get hot.
Just remember though, you can get really hungry when your waiting around
Re:with that attitude - enjoy unemployment (Score:2)
Geek-grrl in training
Solution: Slashdot Jobs (Score:2)
Not to say this must be done, mind you, only that it would be nice. We have to look out for ourselves because the job sites are too busy filling asst. manager positions at insurance agencies (and are, as has been stated, staffed with people too deeply ignorant of what it is that we do) to bother to give the technical community the kind of service it needs.
+--------+
The sage does nothing, and nothing is left undone.
+--------+
DoktorMel
Hacking recruiters is a skill (Score:2)
I have been working as a contract employee for a great many years now. I started in a permanent job right out of school, which was nice and comfortable, but eventually I got burned out and followed my friends into the contracting world. The first couple of contracts I thought were nice, they paid better and I had some freedom at the end of the contracts to take a long vacation and spend the money.
But after a while I realised the best contracts were eluding me, the contracts that started at $75/hour and went way higher (last job was $2500/day). So I got to be friends with a recruiter and used her as a mentor to learn what other recruiters were looking for.
Recruiters only put up a candidate for key jobs after they personally know that person and have a successfully placed them at least once. The good recruiters have a reputation to keep up, especially with the high-paying clients, so they will never take a risk on those jobs. One bad placement and the phone never rings again, so its better not to place someone if you don't have them.
There are recruiters who don't care about the client or you, and I have been burned by a couple of those. Getting to know the recruiter will help you avoid bad situations. It takes an investment of your time and energy to search out the good recruiters and get them interested in you. Its the difference between an OK job and a fantastic job (and $10-$50/hour more
If I were a recruiter right now, I would have dismissed you as an inexperienced geek without any proper job skills. Sure you can program, but that is only about 50% of what it takes to be a good employee. You have to know how to fit into a company, how to deal with human resources, how to charm the MIS department to get more RAM, how to create weekly status reports for the project lead without being asked. If you know all that, the client will ask (beg!) for you to come back for another contract when you finish your current job. That is what a recruiter is looking for.
been there, done that
the AntiCypher
Re:personal connections always count (Score:2)
In almost every case I learned about the job from a friend or a co-worker or a family member or a recruiter I knew personally.
The two jobs I took completely blind were both hell, and neither of them lasted more than 2 months. But each of them introduced me into a new crowd of people who got me follow-on jobs.
And if you can make friends with a recruiter who has a big list of jobs, you can just sit in her office some afternoon (bring chocolate:-), and browse through all the best jobs. Then you can say "I can do this one" and off you go to the interview.
How to bypass HR (Score:2)
With this in mind, I picked the companies I was most interseted in and wrote a cover letter and included two copies of my resume with it. One as an HTML attachment (just say no to MS and
Neil
PS: A last detail to mention is that once you know who to send the email to guessing their email is usually simple. "John Doe" almost certainly has an email of jdoe, johnd, john.doe, or john_doe. You should send the resume to each one and wait to see if it bounces because some companies give individuals multiple email addresses and you don't want to bombard someone with 4 copies of your resume by guessing all 4 at once and having them all go through.
=========== Sample cover letter ============
John,
I am a senior engineer/architect/project lead who has recently become very excited about the possibility of working for XYZ. I'm concerned that if I just send a resume in via the web it is likely to get lost in HR so I thought I'd try this more direct approach.
There are several reasons I'm so attracted to XYZ. First, and most importantly, I'm looking to work in a dynamic, high paced, exciting environment with bright individuals. I was told that XYZ meets these by a director at ABC. (I think the quote was "Those people at XYZ seem to know what they are doing." which I considered to be a high complement considering the source.) Second, I've been doing web applications (both applets and servlets) for the last 18 months and want to continue working on web related projects. I'm quite excited by the challenges and excitement of working on the new technologies. Third, my 2 1/2+ years of Java programming have made me a real Java fan and I want to continue working with the language. Lastly, I'm looking for a small company where I can make a difference. I want a to work at a company that could be my home for years to come. I'm hoping that XYZ might be such a company.
I'd love a chance to talk with you or someone else at XYZ about a job opportunity. Even if you do not have something that seems appropriate for me now but might sometime in the future I hope you'll contact me so we can discuss it. I won't send you any further unsolicited emails so if you are not interested, this can be the end of our contact.
Hoping to hear from you,
Joe
This is the era of cutting out middlemen.... (Score:2)
In my experience, the headhunters don't do any intelligent resume evaluation. They just do "acronym matching."
They are unable to understand concepts like
"some exposure to technology X," "expert at technology Y."
They are reduced to comparing lists of keywords
and can really mis-represent you if you're not
careful !
Let's figure out a way to convince more companies to "go direct."
Middlemen just add cost and complexity to every
transaction...and in this case, little value.
shall
Re:Jobs for those still stuck in the Hellmouth (Score:2)
First, a little about myself - education in social sciences, made a career shift several years ago to computer science/networking/programming, worked as a network engineer with personnel management and salary administration duties (in other words, I was the team leader), later, started my own (small) networking company (and no, we're not hiring right now). So, I've at least seen things from a lot of different perspectives - technical, hiring, personnel, salary, and even CEO.
Now, my comments about your situation, then some more general comments:
First, it sounds as if you might be considering doing without a college degree. If this is the case, I _strongly_ encourage you to reconsider. While some of the most technically talented people I know don't have degrees (and some do), I can also tell you that skipping college will be something you'll have to spend the rest of your life explaining every time you are trying to find a new job. Not to mention the many other reasons(non-educational) for higher education (social, etc).
If you are going to college, consider summer internships. If those are impractical, find a local business that needs some technical help and offer to contribute your talents for free or minimum wage in return for the experience and good recommendations. Small, non-technical companies (e.g., self-employed doctors, CPAs, etc) are probably your best bet here.
Why do I say this? Well, you hit the nail right on the head - your current situation is that you _don't_ have a lot of experience, meaning specific, _documentable_ technical skills (i.e., references and certifications), plus, equally important, you don't have much "real-world" experience (workplace culture). So, you are trying to build up these areas. To put it another way...
Put yourself in the position of someone who is considering hiring you. If you were sitting across from my desk, I would have little more than a high school transcript and a few gut impressions to go on. Meanwhile, here are some of the questions I'd be asking myself:
1) Does this person understand, and can s/he handle, the responsibilities of functioning in a workplace?
2) Do I like this person? (Surveys of employers and managers show that this is a lot more important in an interview than most people realize; after all, if I hire you, I will be stuck with you in my face for at least 8 hours per day).
3) Does this person have creativity? Imaginiation? Intelligence? Can he or she come up with new answers to some of the challenges s/he will encouter?
4) Does s/he have adequate social skills? Can I send him or her to a client site without worrying that he or she will do something unprofessional that will make me look foolish?
(I am getting tired of constantly typing "he or she" - so, from now on, I will just use "she", since "he" is overused. No offense to the dudes; and in case anyone cares, I am part of the half of the human race that pees standing up
5) Maturity - this person, being on the low end of the totem pole, will almost certainly have a lot of "grunt work"; will she get upset or discouraged?
To sum it up, I would look for someone, in your situation, who is not necessarily highly skilled technically (very few high school students are), but who:
* has made the most of every opportunity they _have_ had
* has displayed creativity and intelligence, both in their school work and in extracurricular activities
* who is likeable
* who can communicate well, both orally and in writing
* who is curious and has interests other than technical ones
See why I mentioned internships or giving away some work at first? From a potential employer's perspective, having _some_ prior experience - _anything_ - will mean that you have demonstrated this before in a workplace setting, even if all you've demonstrated is that you're a pleasant, intelligent person who shows up on time (you'd be surprised how many young people don't!).
Small companies will be fine for internships and such, but you may have a problem getting your first "real" job at one. Why? Well, with your lack of experience and skills (no offense, but that is where you're at), any employer is going to have to train you at first, and wait a while before getting real results back. As a small business owner, I can tell you that small businesses usually can't afford to do that; they usually need someone who can be productive immediately. Larger companies will almost certainly have more opportunities.
Now, with all that said, some dos and don'ts...
DO:
* be ready to talk about yourself, your hobbies, etc.
* try to develop a track record of seeking and successfully handling responsibility and interacting with different types of people. This does not have to be technical; organizing and managing events for your church, some charity, a school club, whatever, would be fine for this.
* show that you have initiative, that you are a "self-starter". Be ready to give examples where you have, on your own, extended your technical knowledge or experience. Show that you are the kind of person who digs into a problem, rather than just doing the bare minimum necessary to get by.
* have someone with a lot of work experience (preferably someone with experience interviewing and hiring people) look over your resume and offer constructive criticism. I can't tell you how many times I've seen resumes that had significant grammatical or spelling errors, were poorly organized, or were indecipherable for different reasons. (One humorous example - the resume of a job applicant I saw a few years ago was full of statements like "I installed Allegro on Orange and Ringo". Turned out that Allegro was a purely internal application at a previous workplace, and Orange and Ringo were the names of two of their servers. How was I supposed to know that? Needless to say, that applicant was not hired. When writing, _consider_ _your_ _audience_).
DO NOT:
* appear cocky, arrogant, etc. This is a little hard to do - a job interview seems to almost require it at times. The keys seem to me to be 1) while expressing pride in your own accomplishments, be ready to respect and acknowledge those of others, and 2) show a little modesty. And whatever you do, DON'T come across as a Self-Important Legend-In-Her Own-Mind Thinks-She-Knows-Everything Wannabe Computer Deity. Such an attitude will only demonstrate that you a) have an unrealistic assessment of your own abilities, b) probably cannot communicate well with non-technical people, and c) will probably be unpleasant to work with.
* get upset, angry, or contemptuous if the recruiter or your potential boss knows less technically that you. Being an expert is not her job; knowing enough to be able to recognize talent and manage it effectively is her job.
Which actually leads me to the next and last part of my post - your reward for bearing with me this far
THE SECRET WEAPON WHICH WILL ALMOST GUARANTEE YOU JOB OFFERS
Interested? Here it is...
Realize, understand, and always keep in mind that the purpose of any business is to make money.
That's it. Pretty simple, huh? But, you would be amazed at how many entry-level people don't seem to understand this.
If you are not doing it already, start reading the Wall Street Journal, watching CNBC, etc. Learn what corporations, proprietorships, and partnerships are. Develop at least a passing acquaintance with the principles of bookkeeping. Understand what depreciation is. Know what corporate directors, corporate officers, managers, and supervisors do. And so on.
Additionally, find out (before the interview, if possible) who your potential employer's major competitors are. Is their stock publicly traded? If so, try to get a copy of their annual report before you interview (one way to do this is to call the main office and ask for the Investor Relations Division, and tell them you are
considering purchasing stock and you'd like a copy of the annual report).
If you ask questions like "What are your responsibilities in achieving the financial goals of this company, and what will my place be in helping you achieve those goals?" - and, if you have done your homework and are prepared to discuss these issues intelligently, I _promise_ you that even if you are not offered a job immediately, your resume _will_ be placed in a special "hot people" file, you _will_ be asked to "stay in touch", you _will_ be called at some later time by someone at the company who say "we've got an job opening, I remember talking to you before and think you'd be a good match, would you like to come back in and talk to us again?"
If this sounds like a lot of financial stuff to learn, keep in mind, you're only in high school! No one expects you to be an expert. Just showing that you're interested in these issues and are thinking about them will be enough, believe me.
It goes without saying that techies who consider managers as "dweebs", "suits", or "beancounters" find their prospects for advancement _very_ limited. I personally know a couple of people in their late 30's who are still working entry level jobs, not because they love the work, but because they can't get past this attitude. And, I've seen a few others. Your boss's job will be to achieve a set of goals assigned by _her_ superiors, and to do it with a limited amount of money and time. And ultimately, that is the basis on which you will be evaluated.
Realize that, although your boss may like you and respect you immensely, her _professional_ duty is to consider your salary, your PC, your chair and desk, your phone line, the square footage of your office or cubicle, as money spent, and the work you produce as money returned. To remain employed, the revenue you produce must be greater than the money the company spends on you; or, you must at least show the promise of becoming profitable fairly soon. (Actually, there are exceptions to this, but anyway...) Any time you make a request or suggest an idea, be prepared to justify it in financial terms. I've seen more than a few programmers who simply _must_ have the hottest, latest PC on their desk, when a middle of the road PC would be perfectly adequate for them to do their work. Don't ask for a faster CPU or more memory unless you can justify it in terms of productivity (less of your time waiting for compiles, etc). You don't have to have hard
dollar amounts, but the more you can put things in dollars and cents, the more attention your bosses will pay to you and the more they'll respect your opinion.
Well, as long as I've blabbed for this long, I'll throw in a few last thoughts on interviewing advice.
* Arrive early - give yourself 15 minutes to get stuck in traffic, use the bathroom once you get there, catch your breath if you had to climb stairs, etc.
* Dress appropriately - just because the company may be casual dress does not mean you can show up in blue jeans. For interviews, business attire is simply expected.
* If the person interviewing you has an unusual name, find out how to pronounce it _before_ talking to them (easy to do - just ask the receptionist).
* If you get sweaty palms, stick a few tissues or a handkerchief in your pocket, and give your hand a discreet wipe just before shaking hands.
* After arriving, but just before the interview, go to the bathroom and give yourself one last check in the mirror. Hair still ok? No lettuce stuck in your teeth from the sandwich you ate on the way over? Nothing hanging out of your nose? (I've seen that happen!)
* Bring a couple of copies of your resume with you. In other words, assume that the copy you sent in earlier will be buried somewhere on your interviewer's desk, and she'll be unable to find it.
* If you do not get the job, call back, ask to speak to the person interviewing you, and ask why (without being defensive or argumentative, of course). Explain that you are trying to get your first job, and you'd like some constructive criticism on what you did right and wrong.
Finally,
* Make sure you talk to the person who will be supervising you, and the people you will be working with. I learned this lesson the hard way; I interviewed at a company where I was told that my potential boss was busy "handling an emergency", and someone else would be conducting the interview. What I found out later was that my potential boss-to-be was such a bastard that no one who had interviewed with him had considered the job. Fortunately, I found out before it was too late. At another company, the bosses talked at great length about what a wonderful company it was, how everyone was so motivated and excited, etc. Talking with some lower level employees, I saw that this was not the case. Conclusion: management was horribly out of touch with the workers, or was trying to do a sales job on me.
* Trust your gut feelings - this is easier said than done, but if the job doesn't feel right, and you can afford to wait for something better, don't be afraid to turn it down. Remember what I said about your boss having to put up with you 8 hours per day? Same thing applies to you.
* Don't get discouraged if your first few interviews don't go well. Interviewing skills are like anything else - they take practice.
Well, that's it...Good luck!