Tales From The Bazaar 232
From Jordan Greenberg:
The Bazaar was my first real chance to meet any of the big names of the Linux community. Though I missed all of the daytime events due to work, I showed up just in time to be bored by Ralph Nader and retreat to the Andover.net party before things got too crazy. Once there I was able to chat with such legends as ESR, Bruce Perens, Maddog Hall, Jeff and Robin, and was even able to make RMS laugh about the whole to GNU or not to GNU Linux naming debate. Personally, I was never a big fan of saying GNU/Linux - I think it sounds awkward and confusing and I did not like RMS demanding that people in his presence use the GNU (right Chris?).
With almighty tequila coursing through my veins, I found myself in the midst of a sermon by RMS on why he believes we need GNU terminology - and coming from his mouth it suddenly made sense (or perhaps that was the tequila too). Linux, or GNU/Linux as RMS would have it, depends not only on the quality of the software but about the freedom within, granted by the GPL. By using the GNU prefix we remind ourselves and others of this. GNU/Linux is not just about the software, but about the ideals behind that software.
But it still sounds awkward. "The problem is," I said to RMS and the others that were still listening, "that you need a catchier name for it. How about calling yourself an "impaladin?"
"Impaladin?" asked RMS
"Yes, impaladin - Have GNU will travel"
RMS laughed - he approved
So feel free to use this new name - maybe even create an impaladin distribution or just laugh at it - but enjoy.
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Isaac Salpeter's take:
The heart of this conference was not to be found on the exhibition floor, nor in the (repetitive axe-grinding of the) keynotes, but in the classes and general sessions. Suggestion for the future: more open discussions and cooperation, less Ralph Nader yammering about how much Microsoft sucks.
Best conversation overheard:
"So, will the Andover party have a cash bar?"
"No, there's free beer."
"Uh-oh, Stallman's gonna be pissed..."
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Annelise Anderson, representing FreeBSD, says:
Whatever its raw edges, The Bazaar conference was worthwhile for the usual networking reasons. The best of the networking went on at the reception hosted by andover.net and the follow-on reception at the FAO Schwarz toy store, an inspired location for this crowd. This one was thanks to FAO Schwartz and IBM.
The BSDs could -- should -- have had a stronger presence here, perhaps with a combined exhibit booth in addition to the volunteers demo-ing on their own computers. Patrick Lynch of the NY users' group organized a pan-BSD BOF; Bob Bruce showed up there and said we might see an IPO with FreeBSD's name on it before the middle of next year. My little Sony picturebook was a source of some amazement -- FreeBSD -current running on such a little thing, with a couple of those stunning Eterms. The publishers in attendance were generally unaware that along with the multiple Linux distros, FreeBSD and the other BSDs exist and transfer an enormous amount of the traffic on the Internet.
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Adam Matos, Systems Administrator and Student, The Beacon School, writes:
While attending The Bazaar here in Manhattan, I found it to be fascinating that so many people support the Linux community. I came with a colleague and teacher of mine, Chris Lehmann, Technology coordinator for The Beacon School. Chris was the one who first showed me Linux and how useful it can be. At Beacon we use Linux on our primary servers and wanted to let others know that schools, too, use Linux.
I attended a tuturial Wednesday morning, Enterprise System Management, that was suposed to teach me about running Linux servers. I walked out 10 minutes into the tuturial. I took a quick look at what was planned for the session and noticed I knew a majority of it. Not because I think I know it all, but because we've done most of it at Beacon. Such things as configuring Samba and writing shell scripts were something I learned under Chris Lehmanns's coordination at school. With less than two years Linux experience, I've been given the title Systems Administrator.
As I leave The Bazaar, I feel more comfortable about how many other Linux enthusiasts are out there. Linux is something everyone I feel can start adapting to. People can change.
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From Nopalzin Torrres, Systems & Network Administrator, IllusionFusion!:
I was nervous when I first arrived, but the Open Source community welcomed my desire to learn and contribute. I walked out of the Building Firewalls with Open BSD tutorial saying "Damn, I can really make this work". I also picked up some great info on Samba and Linux system admin. I had a great time and met some great guys.
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starlady (AKA Jessica Lee Sheffield) finishes off by saying:
Having been to a show every month for the past four months, I thought I had some idea of what to expect when entering the exhibit floor, but my expectations were largely confounded as this was a much smaller show than I have experienced. I wasn't surprised to see Geek Compound 3.0 greet me as I walked through the door - Andover's .org pavilion, which was comprised of Linux.com, Linuxfund.org, NetBSD, KDE, and others, in addition to Slashdot and Freshmeat, of course. As I continued on through the floor looking for the UserFriendly booth, I noticed that several of the powerhouse booths at past shows, notably Red Hat and VA Linux, had a surprisingly subdued presence at this one, while Caldera (of "E-business!" fame at COMDEX) wasn't even in attendance.
The atmosphere at The Bazaar was very community-oriented, which is why it's a shame that the attendance was so low. Without the distractions of marketing ploys, people were free to discuss projects, collaboration, or simply say "Hey, I like your work." I had very nice conversations with some of the leading names in the Open Source community, and even witnessed a random guy walk up to Bob Young, notice his red beret, and ask, "Hey, are you with Red Hat or something?"
When Mr. Young nodded with a smile, the guy proceeded to ask him support questions, while I and Paul Ferris of LinuxToday snuck off before our snickering gave the game away. To his credit, Mr Young was very gracious in answering the man's questions and making him feel comfortable.
The relaxed nature of The Bazaar made it possible for smaller organizations to catch the eye and ear of the community and publicize their own open source efforts. One such was The Beacon School, an alternative public school in New York City where the students administrate Linux servers and run projects on them. The students are very enthusiastic and eager to be involved in the community, and I believe they made a very good impression on the attendees (except perhaps the ones that kept shooting the Nerf weapons kindly provided by Copyleft). Speaking of Nerf, Copyleft's "Shoot the Star Wars action figures, win a prize" campaign was a roaring success. I took a Slashdot frisbee home with me, so I can't complain. :)
All in all, I think The Bazaar was a success for its first year. The traffic wasn't as high as anyone would have liked due to bad placement within the Javits center, but I believe that is something they can improve in the future. The show was a great chance to see old friends and make new ones in the Open Source world, and I think a lot of positive things will come of that.
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There were things that could have been improved, and the timing was wrong; theBazaar was held in the middle of finals week for most area colleges, which I believe was a big factor in the low attendance. And for some reason the heat in the Jacob Javits Convention Center wasn't working properly, which gave the whole thing a (literally) chilly atmosphere. Oh, well. Maybe next year's edition will be better-timed and better-attended.
Sounds like it was fun. (Score:5)
So was Illiad (Score:2)
Boojum
Attendance (Score:3)
Possibly because it was not well publicised. I would have like to have gone, but I didn't find out about it until after the event.
I don't even remember a mention of
(prepares to be flamed)
Conflicting RMS reports (Score:2)
Forgive my offtopic-ness: A lot of times people make RMS out to be this no-fun-and-games kind of stickler. I remember reading a story in Wired about how he absolutely refused to let some guy give him a piggy-back ride, just because it was silly. But then, like yesterday, I hear stories like "POSIX_ME_HARDER" and this story where the fellow said that he made him laugh (he can laugh?), so I think "well, maybe he's just got a bad rep".
Anyone out there know him personally?
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"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
Re:Sounds like it was fun. (Score:1)
Re:So was Illiad (Score:1)
Now I get the joke... (Score:1)
Re:Attendance (Score:1)
Maybe next time...
Re:FIRST (Score:3)
There's a lot of contributing factors (Score:1)
Even before an agreement was made, there were delays as buses and trains were held in the station longer than usual by the MTA workers to put the pressure on the city. If people didn't *need* to be in Manhattan, they didn't go near it!
I managed to make it to the Bazaar on Thursday, and actually like a low attendance to a high one. The vendors were more available to answer technical questions without having a bunch of suits there asking "How is this going to facilitate the methodologies for my vertical strategic initiatives......"
Overall a good show, and am looking forward to the Expo in Feb.
Some 50's TV show (Score:1)
George
Re:Now I get the joke... (Score:1)
Re:Bazaar Pronunciation (Score:2)
b(e-upsidedown)-'z(a-with-umlaut)r
sort of like "buh-ZAHR" I think.
Or maybe it's guh-NOME.
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I would have gone... (Score:1)
It has an invisible "r" (Score:2)
brah-zeer
As in,
"Did you read that article, the Cathedral and the brah-zeer?"
"Whoa, this is a huge brah-zeer"
"Do you need help opening or closing that brah-zeer?"
"Honey, I have to go to New York City to see an important brah-zeer."
I hope this helps.
George
Re:Impaladin? (Score:1)
Paladin: champion of a cause; trusted military leader.
Hence, Impaladin: Impala Paladin, GNU Leader.
Not bad.
Re:Impaladin? (Score:2)
Paladin was the main character in the 50's TV series "Have Gun Will Travel". He was a wild west gunslinger and righter of wrongs, sort of...
IMDB has info here [imdb.com].
Re:Conflicting RMS reports (Score:2)
It turned out he was wearing a button stating "I won't * ane", with the * being replaced with a red playing-card diamond. As I was on sleep deprevation at the time (hey, it's a con), he had to explain the translation ("I won't die mundane") to me.
If he had no sense of humor, I can't imagine him going to an SF con.
A success story... (Score:1)
The success was that my friend, a Microsoft Certified Professional, was incredibly impressed by how un-phony everyone was, and found himself arguing with himself, unable to accept all the old reasons why Free Software won't work, and why the model will fall. I definitely think we have a convert (Which I must say, I wasn't expecting) - he'll certainly be keeping a close eye on various developments, particularly what Miguel De Icaza does next...
The Bazaar was fun. (Score:1)
I knew the finals week was in the way for the big chunk of people who would've gone to the Bazaar, but it's better this way because I didn't have to be trampled by them. I think the LinuxWorld Expo would require more space in the Javits Convention Center for college folks to move around. I wish I could buy a Slashdot t-shirt from Copyleft [copyleft.net]
From now on, we shall call Jeff Bates "Cute Little Hemos!"
I can't wait for LWE!
--
Re:Sounds like it was fun. (Score:2)
Don't forget, apply the superglue with your fingers. This is a vitally important part of the process.
Re:Bazaar Pronunciation (Score:1)
b@'za:(r)
where @ = ago
and a: = arm
Re:Sounds like it was fun. (Score:1)
because (Score:1)
A good time, though small, is still a good time (Score:1)
Yes, the exhibit hall was a bit sparsely attended. I can't say that I blame the attendees, though. To be honest, I was disappointed with the exhibit hall. There were a few interesting things here and there (I loved the magician that Andover.net hired!), and some interesting conversations, but by and large, after spending an hour in the exhibit hall, I got bored.
I still think the conference was a success, though. I went to two of the tutorials, and came out of them feeling that I'd definitely learned some useful stuff. The keynotes that I saw were at least mildly interesting; they might've said some things I knew, but they definitely said some I didn't, and it was interesting to hear it from the source. The Andover.net party was faboo (thanks, guys!), and the FAO Schwarz party was cool. It was fun to hang out with Roblimo and Hemos and Trae McCombs for a while; I don't think I can call it networking, because I doubt they'd have remembered me half an hour later, much less any time in the future.
If The Bazaar happens again, and it's still in NYC, and I'm still in NYC, I'll go again. It has room to grow and improve, certainly, but there was also a lot of good stuff there already.
-Joe
Re:Impaladin? (Score:1)
I don't get impaladin, however paladin is the name for a character class in AD&D. They are holy warriors who constantly fight for whats right and good. If they fall off the path they lose everything that makes them special. Kind of like GNU/Linux, a fight for whats right and good in the software world, and those who fall off the path(IE make a proprietary version of the linux kernel or GNU untilites without completely rewriting the code will be sued and lose what they gain from GNU. Also, they do all this not for money(they aren't allowed to keep more money than they need) but because they truly believe in the ideals, like OSS programmers who mainly believe in the software not the money. Though I'd view the whole movement as chaotic or neutral good rather than lawful good as paladins must be. I could be completely wrong on the intent, and I have no clue what the prefix 'im' means, but the AD&D paladin class may well be the inspiration, and thats what I took it as.
Mistakes in the Program (Score:1)
I went, but due to some other meetings that I had on those days, I only caught the end of the show.
The part that got me was if you read the show program. There were a couple of big mistakes in it. One that caught my eye was the notes on CmdrTaco saying that he co-founder and contributor to slash.org. While those of us that are loyal readers, will understand, the people that wandered upstairs from the ebusiness expo might be confsed.
Also what is with all this "News for Geeks, Stuff that matters" That they used in the program.
Other then that, I am bummed that I didn't get to meet as many people as I would have liked to. There is always next time..
You know you're a redneck Jedi if:
You consider your lightsaber the best bugzapper yet invented
Re:FreeBSD on a Picturebook???? (Score:1)
I liked it (Score:2)
As someone pointed out, RMS wasn't there much, which was a shame. He took the time in New York to visit his sick mother at the hospital, so I guess he's excused.
The andover.net party was terrific, and it was sad that we had to be dragged away from it to go to FAO Schwarz, which I didn't particularly enjoy.
Oh, I tagged along with RMS, Bruce Perens and some other people to a burmese restaurant at Broome Street in NYC (number 380 if I remember correctly). The place is called "Mandalay Palace" and I strongly recommend it.
From us in the FSF booth, I'd like to say Thank you! to the various volunteers who played with our computers and got them moderately working, and likewise to everone who kept talking about freedom and everyone who bought things from us.
Re:Impaladin? (Score:1)
I've had that particular pun floating around in my head for quite some time now and was just waiting for a good chance to try it out - talking to RMS was definately good.
And to answer some other questions...speaking to RMS in person was much more informative than reading about him and his ideals here on
But impaladin can also be: the name of a distribution, toolkit, consultant....pretty much any noun that is portable and uses GNU
Jordan
Re:RMS is an elitist (Score:1)
Nitpicky (Score:1)
Perhaps you pronounce things completely differently than I do, but to me...
buh ~= the "a" in ago, and
zahr (if it were a word) would be pronounced exactly like the first part of "arm" with a "z" in front of it.
However, I'm not a particularly cunning linguist, so feel free to tear that apart, too.
(Actually, Webster's isn't much help, because their example for how to pronounce the sound \a:\ when it's spelled "aa" is the word... "bazaar")
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Re:Conflicting RMS reports (Score:2)
My experience with him is that he is very focused. That doesn't mean that he can't laugh. I thought he was actually a nice guy with strong beliefs. I don't 100% agree with him, but what I hear him say makes a lot of sense. I don't much like reading about him because all reports are bias in one way or another. What I recommend is to try to go to one of these Open Source/Linux/Free Software events that he will be attending and meet him for yourself. Keep an open mind, and forget all that you have read about him. Listen to what he says and then judge him as you like.
I believe he is a man before his time, and eventually, the world may be the way he wants. But for now it will take a lot to get there. Maybe GNU/Linux (or Linux, which ever you prefer. I really don't care) will help pave the path. Or better yet, try to get your college/work pay for him to come and give a lecture.
Steven Rostedt
Last one (ok, getting OT) (Score:1)
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Re:Conflicting RMS reports (Score:1)
He also has a sense of humor. I liked it when he refered to people wanting to keep source closed as "privateers" (as opposed to "pirates")...
Re:Conflicting RMS reports (Score:1)
my impression (Score:1)
In defense of Gore (Score:2)
And the embarassing ignorance shown by Declan McCullagh and Wired in trying to ridicule Gore for his pronounciation of "router"! Yes, the correct prounciation is "raut-er" if you're talking about a wood-working tool! But cisco makes machines which selects routes (a new meaning, not in standard dictionaries), so surely the pronounciation he used is completely valid. (I've heard many versions of the American classic "Route 66" and all pronounced it "root 66." Now where are the songs about routers?)
Guh-noo-Linnucks (Score:5)
No, I wasn't involved in the creation of any of the original Linux distributions. I never rolled my own OS with linux 0.99. But I can make some educated guesses as to what that primordial atmosphere was like.
First of all, there was no GNU System in 1993-94. All there was from the GNU camp was a collection of software. Linus managed to get some GNU software running under his linux prototype. No big deal, and certainly not sufficient to call the result "GNULinux". After all, at the same time, I was using gcc, emacs and some other GNU software under OS/2.
So then Linus gets his kernel working. Added to this were some core OS parts like lilo. Missing is a central C library. Linus wanted to use GNU's. But it didn't work with Linux! It was Linus and Co., *not* RMS Esq., that ported glibc to Linux. Bear this in mind, GNU was ported to Linux, and not the other way around.
Add in a few naughty non-GNU stuff like a filesystem, drivers, etc., and you still don't have a workable OS. Throw in some GNU software, some BSD software, and a few other miscellaneous pieces, and you now have something that can be called an OS. Where are we, 1995? There is still no GNU Sytem. But a lot of GNU software is vastly improved however, the beneficiary of a thousand prying eyes. A new paradigm had arisen not seen before. It didn't come from the ivory towers or dank dungeons of MIT, but from the trenches of Finland, Norway, India, Brazil, United States, Germany, and other equally important locations too numerous to mention.
Enter the first ur-distro. Probably only three or four floppy disks given to a neighbor. From this humble creature with the bravery to crawl up from the antediluvian sludge into the bright sunlit atmosphere, arose all of the distributions we know today.
And what did this ur-distro contain? Four basic parts: kernel, infrastructure, libraries and apps. The kernel was Linux, and included some non kernel stuff like drivers and lilo. The infrastructure was provided by the ur-distro and included stuff like init scripts and messy bits. The libraries, for the most part, originated from GNU. But remember that they were ported to Linux. Finally, there were the applications. Stuff like bash, gcc, lprd, slipd, etc. Most of the front end apps were GNU. Most of the back end were BSD. However, none of the apps were truly necessary for an operating system.
As I see it, this ur-distro does not resemble the GNU System as envisioned by the FSF. The only essential part of the distro is glibc, and that had to be ported to get it to work. The other GNU software are not essential. Of all of them, only bash is the universal default of the various distributions, but it can be trivially replaced by any other shell.
In short, contrary to the claims of RMS, the Linux kernel was NOT inserted into the GNU System as its final missing piece. Rather, pieces of GNU were inserted into what its creator named "Linux" to add functionality.
If RMS wants to see a genuine GNU System, then it is up to him to make it. He has all the parts. Just finish hurd, and release a new distro called "GNU". Or use the Linux kernel temporarily and call it "Linux/GNU". But until I can download a workable version from ftp.gnu.org, there is no such thing as the GNU System.
Re:FIRST (Score:2)
e-Business (Score:1)
Testing Open-Source Awareness (Score:1)
Dave: Do you know of Richard Stallman?
Reporter: Yes.
Dave: Eric Raymond?
Reporter: No. But I did read the GPL for the first time last night. It's funny though, it reads like a religious manifesto.
Dave: Welcome aboard!
I wound up spending a few minutes under the lights later in the day, just after Hemos, and just before someone else from IBM.
dave
Re:Impaladin? (Score:1)
Re:A good time, though small, is still a good time (Score:1)
I dunno, I thought he was kinda strange and grostequely commercial. "Now I'll say the magic word: AndoverNet." "For this trick, I'll need some help from the audience. This is like SlashDot, because the users participate..." I thought it was very odd to have this silly commercial ploy put on by what until recently had been a site just run by a couple enthusiasts. Still, he was kinda amusing.
But the Bazaar people gave a free tshirt to every atendee, so it was worth the subway ride.
Becareful of what books to have him sign. (Score:1)
I'm not sure what O'Reilly did, but I think it had to do something with Sendmail. Anyone know the details?
Steven Rostedt
Re:In defence of Gore (Score:3)
Let's not be ridiculingly prescriptivist here. It's not a matter of right or wrong. This is just the way it is. It may not be a prestige accent from Nyoo Yawk, but it's a legitimate American accent from the heartland, one that's been around a long, long time. And considering that it conserves more different pronunciations than do places in the country where these many r- words have merged together due to more frequent wear and tear there, it's probably an older one, too.
Ah, the Andover party.... (Score:1)
Re:Attendance (Score:2)
Consider my case. I registered for the Bazaar in November of 1998 (!!!). I received a note at that time letting me know that they would fill me in when all of the details for the show were finalized.
I heard *nothing* about it (and in fact forgot about it completely) until one week before the show. Then I got a message on my answering machine from someone letting me know that I needed to go back to their site to confirm my registration.
By that time it was too late to make the appropriate plans to attend.
I think that the Bazaar would have been much better attended if anyone had actually been informed about it within a reasonable time frame
Re:Attendance (Score:1)
Err, no, it is SF fandom slang (Score:1)
Yes, it was originally elitist in nature (sort of like the "fans are Slans" statement back in the 50's -- go look up the Slan books, which are ridiculous Nietsche style hero race books), but the original meaning is long gone today. Much as the original meaning of the word "gay" (to be happy) is long gone today, replaced with today's meaning of the word "gay" (to be homosexual).
-E
Re:Err, no, it is SF fandom slang (Score:1)
Re:Conflicting RMS reports (Score:1)
He is nice in person, but like other have said, he is focused. I went up to him to thank him for making emacs, which has done more to make me a productive programmer than just about anything (which I told him). He said thank you and told me that projects like that will not happen unless people like me program them.
Then he had dinner at a Chinese place nearby with a bunch of geeks (me included) and this is where it got kind of out of hand. RMS is nice but the cronies that flock to him can be a little much. The kind of boisterous geekiness that I thought I left behind in the computer clusters of CMU. At one point someone mentioned how he refused to have passwords on his computer at MIT and I was honestly intruiged to hear his reasoning behind this. But I didn't have a chance to ask the question because as soon as I tried the others started jumping down my throat for trying to bring up that "old, tired debate." I wasn't trying for that at all. I respect RMS and I just wanted to hear what he had to say about it, with possibly a little devil's-advocate prompting
So RMS is nice, the people that congregate around him can be a little much if you ask me
Poor attendence maybe related to timing (Score:1)
I had initially registered for the event, but then realized that it was to be a Tuesday-Thursday event close to Christmas in New York City. This means that airfare would cost a fortune (no Saturday or Sunday stay over) and hotels, which are always expensive in NYC, would be even more so, due to the holiday shopping crowds.
I decided that I could not afford to spend $1000-US or more and take time off of work to attend a conference on free software. While I write free software (Postilion [postilion.org]), I cannot afford to spend like this to attend a conference about it.
Good thing I didn't go - my credentials didn't show up until the day of the conference.
-nic
Re:Good guy (Score:1)
Bad Karma? (Score:2)
I think the main reason for the failure is that the Bazaar was an attempt to leverage the success of Linux, in hopes that it might rub off on other projects. It didn't work because it wasn't billed as a Linux event. There's little doubt that if the Bazaar had been named "the Linux Bazaar" attendance would have been huge, especially with its physical proximity to Wall Street.
All in all, I think it calls into question the idea that there is an "Open Source" phenomenon per se. Now we all know that there is the "Linux phenomenon", but it is not clear if there is widespread interest in "Open Source" beyond its traditional constituency. So far non-Linux events have not drawn big crowds.
I don't get it (Score:4)
Consider what the terminology is for. It's supposed to get across what it is that you're dealing with. I think that both names accomplish that. RMS' point about attaching GNU to Linux to accentuate the freedom that comes along with GNU/Linux is something that I think is good and very important, but at the same time, totally superfluous for beginning users and the PHBs out there that are trying to get their minds around the concept of why somebody would give software away in the first place. Calling it just Linux in my mind is also totally functional, (since that's what it is) but I think it denies the theoretical, philosophical, and practical reasons behind why most of the software is what it is and how it got there. But again, this point is totally superfluous to beginners and PHBs.
People often want to squabble over what percentage of code in the "Linux System" is from GNU. Then some say it doesn't matter how much is from GNU, only the amount that is GPL'd. Others want to extend that from GPL'd to "Free Software". But one thing is for sure in my mind (and since this is an opinion post, it has to be in my mind since I'm not speaking for anybody else) is that even if we were solidly able to nail down what percentage of code was ever written by, sanctioned by, looked at by, or breathed on by RMS, we still wouldn't be able to say, "Ok, at X% we can officially call it GNU/Linux".
I think some of the naming war goes back to the differences between the "Open Source" camp and the "Free Software" camp. For the record, to disclose my biases, I'm with Bruce Perens when he wrote his article "It's time to talk about Free Software Again" when he resigned from OpenSource Initiative - Open Source was meant as a rebranding, not a replacement. I think that that comes in here in that people want to rebrand GNU/Linux to suit their political motivations, i.e. getting more businesses to adopt linux, or increasing its commercial success. Here's where the sticking point is, because we've got two major camps in the linux community as I see it. The first wants to talk about freedom, and the second wants the software to be popular. People of course can argue about that point, but as far as I can see, the only point of the open source initiative is to push it onto outside people and increase the popularity of GNU/Linux. I'm not against that, but I am against it when it comes to weakening what GNU/Linux means. (And what GNU software means in the larger sense - freedom)
SO! On one hand, it really doesn't matter what you call it. I'm often a bit lazy in writing style and I'll write Linux even though I mean GNU/Linux. No matter what you call it, as long as you get the functional point across as to what you mean, (and don't call it something like FooOS or "Gnulix") then it really doesn't matter to me personally much (and probably not 90% of other people) but what does kind of tick me off is people saying that the name GNU/Linux is totally illegitimate or silly for any myriad of reasons. I think the name GNU/Linux is totally justified and should be preferred when talking about specifics and not in a conversational sense.
So, I guess all of that makes me just another fence straddler.
Maybe I'm missing something (Score:2)
Am I missing anything?
Re:In defense of Gore (Score:1)
Re:Guh-noo-Linnucks (Score:1)
What I got on discussing this with RMS before, is that every distro includes GNU products. He told me "I did NOT have invent Linux, that is completely Linus Torvalds. But I invented the products that run on top of it, and that every one uses with it" It would be hard to find those that use Linux without using GNU. I would argue that, I'm sure some embedded Linux may do without. But the majority uses it.
The reason GNU was ported to Linux is because of the availability of the source code. And that is primarily because of the GPL. I don't believe Linux would be as big as it is today without it. So I would like to give RMS some credit, and help him push the GNU agenda. But like I said, I think I prefer your "Linux/GNU" too. That way you don't get confused and think that Linux is a GNU product, because it ain't! (sorry... "because it is not!")
Steven Rostedt
Re:Exactly (Score:2)
Re:In defense of Gore (Score:2)
Here in the (American) South, we call 'em routers ( raowt-ters ), and if I say: "I'm going to route the traffic through the detour", the word "route" is pronounced "raowt", or "raute", rhymes with "shout". I deal with network guys (including the guys at BellSouth) all the time, hang out with sysadmins from a dozen companies, and we all agree that Cisco routers "Sis-co raowt-ters", (rhymes with "shouters") are the best (except two admins, who like Bay, pronounced "Bay", rhymes with "May" :).
Route 66 is pronounced "Raowt sixty-six", but "Root sixty-six" sounds fine to my ears as well. I would probably pronounce it "Raowt", and recognize either pronuciation.
Somebody ask Mandrake (from Atlanta, Georgia) or some of the Red Hat sysadmins (North Carolina) how to pronounce "route". At least here in Florida, it's firmly "raowt".
Oh, and traceroute is "Trace-rawot", rhymes with "face-trout", "or "space-shout", and when I've called Cisco for support, they didn't bat an eye at the way I pronounced it (of course, it was 3am, and I was transferred to Austrailian tech support).
--
Evan
Re:Well,,,, (Score:1)
Re:Wrong... (Score:2)
Re:Please.... (Score:1)
Re:Wrong... (Score:1)
Re:Exactly (Score:1)
Re:Exactly (Score:1)
Re:Think about that... (Score:1)
Re:Guh-noo-Linnucks (Score:2)
>Enter the first ur-distro. Probably only three or four floppy disks given to a neighbor.
Heh. I submit my late 1994 Yggdrasil CD to the court as exhibit one. And that was just the one I chose, of the 3-4 CD-based semi-commercial distros available at that point.
By '95, Slackware was already on top of the second wave of distros, Red Hat was working on RH2.0, and Yggdrasil and its ilk were slipping into history.
Going more and more off-topic, here, but just wanted to clear up some history.
--
Re:Think about that... (Score:1)
System Administrator? (Score:1)
Oh, fuck that. Whats the difference between such a "System Administrator" and an MCSE?
Not a lot.
Probably about none.
You're missing the point (Score:2)
Now, contrasted with Linux, which IS about freedom, free software, and choice, GNU/Linux makes sense.
And it's not really about glory hounding either. The kernel is an important part of the system, and so it's called GNU/Linux. I wouldn't have gone along, but I dont think stallman would have been way out in left field to ask people to call the whole damn thing "The GNU System" because within the framework of GNU software, that's exactly what it is. There are a lot of things that Stallman is after, (most of which would actually benefit you in the long run if you'd just stop fighting so hard against them) but I don't think glory is one of them.
Re:Wrong... (Score:1)
Re:I don't get it (Score:1)
Dear AC, I was under the impression that the slashdot comments section is for comments relating to different aspects of the article, and responses to other articles.
"Flamebait" in my book, is doing something like posting something underneath somebody elses article calling it "pure flamebait puffed up into a million words" or "a turkey" or calling the whole topic crap. It provides 0 facts, only completely emotional rhetoric with no backing even in the opinion realm, much less the fact realm.
Re:In defense of Gore (Score:2)
Re:Think about that... (Score:1)
Re:Wrong... (Score:1)
In Ora's defense... (Score:2)
I was given this choice and chose free, as I will for my next one.
Chris DiBona
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
VP, SVLUG
Re:Ahh Yes..another cult member (Score:2)
You're smoking CRACK man. Sure, GNU and cults have things in common, but then again you and Adolf Hitler have things in common in that you're both human.
People are always looking to smell conspiracy and evil.
Re:I don't get it (Score:4)
I don't take offense at people calling it GNU/Linux. I don't throw tirades at reporters when they call it GNU/Linux. I don't interrupt people in mid-sentence to correct the misuse of GNU/Linux. However, one extremely influential individual takes great exception at the term Linux. Are you saying it's okay for him to state his opinions but I'm off base in stating mine?
"RMS' point about attaching GNU to Linux to accentuate the freedom that comes along with GNU/Linux..."
But the freedom he is talking about applies equally well, or more so, to the non-GNU components of Linux. Furthermore, the GNU and FSF websites say a whole lot more about a particular political and economic philosophy than they do about freedom. If Richard really wants to promote Free Software through a distribution's name, he should insist on "Free/Linux" instead. If you read through "Open Sources", you'll find that all of the authors believe in Free Software, but only one adheres to the GNU philosophy. Yet every one of these authors was instrumental in bringing Linux to where it is today.
"even if we were solidly able to nail down what percentage of code was ever written by, sanctioned by, looked at by, or breathed on by RMS, we still wouldn't be able to say, "Ok, at X% we can officially call it GNU/Linux"."
RMS clearly defines what he means by "The GNU System", and Linux is certainly not it.
"I think that that comes in here in that people want to rebrand GNU/Linux to suit their political motivations..."
Nonsense. No one is renaming Linux other than Richard Stallman! No one. It was called "Linux" from day one. RMS didn't start insisting on the GNU/Linux name long after Linux made a foothold in the hacker camp. Indeed, it is Richard Stallman himself who is rebranding Linux to suit his political motivations!
"The first wants to talk about freedom, and the second wants the software to be popular."
I want to talk about freedom. But I am not so ignorant as to equate this freedom with political liberty, free speech or human rights. I don't misidentify it with a philosophy. I don't delude myself into thinking that Solaris will enslave me. Businesses have no problem with the concept of freedom, but they do have problem equating freedom with the "thou shalt not" uttered by RMS.
Re:Right on... (Score:1)
What's a Paladin? (Score:2)
Both these Paladins and the AD&D character class were of necessity born to the warrior aristocracy -- not necessarily an image fitting the more meritocratic free-software movement. There used to be flamewars in Dragon magazine, back in the days of original AD&D, over the fact that because paladins had to be aristocrats by birth, they could not rise from the masses.
Re:You're missing the point (Score:2)
FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, and yes, even FreeDOS are about freedom. Should we then call them GNU/FreeBSD, GNU/OpenBSD, GNU/NetBSD, and GNU/FreeDOS?
Re:In defense of Gore (Score:1)
I was not arguing that any one particular pronounciation of router was the sole correct one, but that saying "rooter" was perfectly acceptable. The article attempted to lampoon Gore for saying "rooter", and I think that shows Wired's (perhaps willful) ignorance.
Given this much-easier-to-support point, I think I provided sufficient evidence to prove my point beyond a reasonable doubt. (I'm not a lawyer, but I did sit a Jury Pool for many boring hours yesterday. That should count for something!)
Re:Ahh Yes..another cult member (Score:2)
Re:Freedom is (Score:1)
Reason for poor attendance: FINALS (Score:1)
Re:In defence of Gore (Score:1)
I moderated him down because I hate Tom. Do I need any other reason?
Well, I was hoping for something more like "I moderated him down because his argument seemed pointless." Would've at least been more like what moderation's supposed to be for - scoring the usefulness of the comment instead of just whether you like the opinion and/or the poster.
In all truth, though, I don't know that there's much to be done to fix the moderation system. Like it or not, it does seem to improve S/N in a mostly fair and reasonable manner. And granted, there are those who'll abuse it (show me a way to create an abuse-proof situation with any sentient interaction and I'll show you something likely not worth using).
Finally, in Tom's defense, I've found his to be some of the best-constructed, most sensible arguments on Slashdot, even when I disagree with his views. And that is something that Slashdot is all too sorely lacking.
</grouse>
-Drayke
Re:RMS is an elitist (Score:2)
Re:In defence of Gore, Prescriptivism(standards) (Score:1)
Personally, I'm deeply in the descriptive linguistics camp, although becoming less so as I try to convince my three-year-old to use prounciations that other people can understand. Still, his slightly-off pronounciations of some words is very cute, like compoooooter (very long 2nd syllable, missing "y" sound) and "Electra City" (for electricity).
BTW, I think coming up with unambiguous and obvious ways to convey pronounciation in ascii is a wonderful challenge. ASCII IPA is nice, but fails the obviousness test.
Re:I don't get it (Score:1)
But how does attaching GNU achieve this? GNU is the label for the GNU project, FSF's effort to build a free Unix. If we need a term that means "libre", Linux is just as valid a label for that as GNU. I'm not alone in failing to see how naming it after Stallman's effort emphasizes "free" any more than just calling it Linux. Indeed, the grab for naming rights seems to imply exactly the opposite.
Re:In defense of Gore (Score:1)
Re:Guh-noo-Linnucks (Score:2)
Ooh! A few pages later on there's an add for LSL Linux 0.99. A 30 disk distro! Boy, was I way off
Re:Freedom is (Score:2)
Suffice it to say, I did not get the impression that this writer had original thoughts or questioned what RMS says. Rather, I could almost imagine him asking Richard "how high."
Oh, I got it :) (Score:2)
Re:In defence of Gore, Prescriptivism(standards) (Score:2)
Re:Please.... (Score:2)
I could say more about the intentional deception, but you should just laugh [perl.com] instead.
Re:Parasitic (Score:2)
What have you given back to the community? A slashdot posting?!? 99% of the community has never written software, submitted a bug report, written documentation, or even mailed a polite thank you note to any developer. But you call ORA the parasite for providing documentation and funding? I don't know where you GNU fanatics buy your dictionaries, but someone needs to sue that bookseller for fraud!
"When they hold free software events, they make it a policy to explicitly not invite some of the original community members (Stallman was not invited to the Summit, for instance)."
RMS is the only one they refuse to invite. And they have good reason not to. He continually refuses to adhere to decorum and rules of order. He is in the habit of ignoring the time limits on talks, ignoring the topic at hand (the topic which attendees paid to hear), and verbally assaulting reporters who use the word "Linux" in his presence.
"However, O'Reilly tries to paint themselves as really big free software/open source supporters, while in reality acting to maximize profit, sometimes sabotaging the movement. This hypocracy pisses me off, and presumably, the FSF as weal."
And what is wrong with trying to maximize one's profit? Isn't that what YOU do every day at work? If that is RMS's big concern, then he should come right out and declare money to be immoral and be done with it, instead of beating around the bush saying how it's okay for Free Software to be commercial.
And precisely how has ORA sabotaged the Open Source movement? Was it by not following the FSF dictates to the letter? If anything, they have helped Open Source by letting it be known that RMS does not hold a monopoly on software ideology.
In case you have forgotten, RMS was not opposed to non-free documentation, and even encouraged selling documentation as a means to finance free software, until ORA started publishing books about GNU software. Then, and only then, did he decide that ORA was evil.
Converted my boyfriend! (Score:2)
Re:Parasitic (Score:2)
However, every existing item of Free or Open Source Software that's for sale is also available as a "Free Beer" download. If an item of software is unavailable as a free download, even temporarily, then RMS does not like it and will readily tell you so. If you then have the temerity to use the words "free" or "open" in proximity to such a product, you will reap upon yourselves unending scorn.
Just ask Troll Tech, Aladdin, Apple, Sun, or a host of other companies. In Sun and Apple's case, they have earned a far greater wrath from GNU advocates than if they had never attempted the open their products to begin with.