This is so on-point it's frightening. I was a high school teacher in Los Angeles from 2000-2001, and it's frightening how much of what is articulated in this exerpt I *experienced*.
We had a principal who was fantastic, because he was a former teacher from the area. But when he was replaced by someone with more "administrative experience" it was appalling how quickly things declined. Children aren't held to standards, parents come at odds with teachers, administrators point the finger at teachers, and the children are the ones left out in the cold.
In just one year there, I was chastised for 1) Driving students home to bad neighborhoods after dark. 2) Creating an extra-curricular dance program that "interfered" with the students curriculum. 3) Attempting to engage students with "dangerous" science demonstrations (i.e. using a bunsen burner constitutes dangerous, using 1 Tesla Magnets constitutes dangerous.) 4) Breaking up a fight with my bare hands (I was chastised for "laying my hands" upon the students.)
The list goes on. I truly believe that the entire system needs reform, from the bottom up and the top down. But without involved parents, administrators who take full responsibility, students who are forced to live with their choices instead of having excuses made for them, and up to date equipment and books, it truly is a lost cause except for the few self-motivated students.
That's right, blame the lawyers. This excuse is so lame. In the corporation I used to work for, many of the ideas I'd get would get shot down because of legal reasons. But usually it was just ignorance talking, and the lawyers were the only ones that backed me up.
If you want to blame something, blame the political process for assigning promotions. Usually, the guy that becomes principal, or the guy that becomes CEO, is the one that never offended anyone or the one that never did anything.
This is why you send your kids to a reputable private school. In private schools the only thing you might see is parents getting pissed at teachers, but in any decent school the parents won't win (the exception is when money is involved but that is a rare occasion!).
Please. What you are suggesting creates an economic barrier to basic childhood education. Not everyone can afford to send their kids to a private school. Everyone should, however, have the right to a decent education.
As funding for public schools continues to decline, it creates a larger separation between the rich and the poor and ensures an ongoing supply of worker bees. What I get out of your comment is that 'real' learning and knowledge should be constrained to private institutions where only the affluent have access. The public school joke is for the rest.
IMO, This continues into college as well. What do you think the real advantages are of going to places like Harvard or Yale? Sure, the quality of education is good, but more importantly, the students who go there are sons and daughters of presidents, senators and CEOs. They are all socializing with each other and building relationships that they carry with them when they are running the country in 20 years. It is nearly impossible for the average person to make similar 'connections'.
If we concentrate the learning into private schools, we are extending this problem into grade, middle and high schools and causing even further stratification between the upper and lower classes.
public school sucks, but I don't agree with the 'oh well, send them to private school' solution.
What do you think the real advantages are of going to places like Harvard or Yale? Sure, the quality of education is good, but more importantly, the students who go there are sons and daughters of presidents, senators and CEOs. They are all socializing with each other and building relationships that they carry with them when they are running the country in 20 years. It is nearly impossible for the average person to make similar 'connections'.
Keep in mind that you don't have to be rich to go to Harvard or
What I get out of your comment is that 'real' learning and knowledge should be constrained to private institutions where only the affluent have access.
I read his comment as stating that private institutions are where the 'real' learning and knowledge are, not that that's where they should be.
Why is it that, when *every* other governement monopoly has been replaced by a competitive private equivalent, the quality of the product has gone up and the price of the product has come down but no one is willing to try this with primary education? Where there is competition, costs fall and quality rises.
Also, you assume that the only way to provide education is at the public expense through taxpayer funded schools staffed by so-called "education professionals" and the only alternative is a costly priva
I agree with the positive results homeschooling can achieve. But I call bullshit on this: Why is it that, when *every* other governement monopoly has been replaced by a competitive private equivalent, the quality of the product has gone up and the price of the product has come down but no one is willing to try this with primary education?
I'm not against experimentation -- targetd school choice programs might work in some areas. but for you to make a blanket statement about privatization ALWAYS succeedi
Please. What you are suggesting creates an economic barrier to basic childhood education. Not everyone can afford to send their kids to a private school. Everyone should, however, have the right to a decent education.
Bullshit. This is bullshit. I'm not suggesting everyone send their kids to Exeter Academy.
A relative of mine (through marriage) who has two kids and lives in Elizabeth NJ managed to get her kids educated entirely in private schools on a salary of $35k/yr. How did she do it? She sacrifice
As if the current system prevents "skimming" those students who are good and can afford a private education from the public schools. It doesn't, vouchers would only, "level the playing field" of who can afford these schools.
Most (but certainly not all) private schools have a per pupil cost much lower than their neighboring public systems, and at least SEEM to produce better results, even comparing apples to apples in terms of student body.
I really don't understand how the same people who decry k12 educat
This is interesting. It seems that many people all over the world have this view. But to say that it is wrong would be an understatement. How many people who make these kinds of statements have actually experienced both sides of the fence?
Now, I don't live in the USA, but here in the UK the situation is very much the same; or at least the feeling that is being expressed by many posters resonate with my own experiences. I'm a first generation immigrant into the UK, from China. Admittedly my parents are aca
this reminds me of a West Wing episode. Rob Lowe's character was arguing for school vouchers and such; some chick got mad, her dad told her that he was making the argument *against* their party just so they could practice or some such; then his character reveals his real opinion on education and one brief bit of it stuck in my mind:
"i believe schools should be palaces" or something similar to that
they need money; money for a number of things because every child in this country deserves an education equal
A school that is a palace is a school where money went to architects and engineers and construction workers instead of to teachers. We should have good schools built to last, sure, but do students learn better in a school with copper pipes or with pipes of gold with diamond faucets? Do students learn better in a school with fine persian carpets in the halls or ones with tile?
I'm fairly unique here, in that I've went to seven K-12 schools (K-1 in Virginia, 2-5 in Hawaii, 6-8 in Missouri, 9 in another school
Yes, I second this sentiment. The only teachers that I remember from pub school are the ones who did things like this. They got involved with their students, they were Teachers.
No the problem is NOT that the parents are involved....it's that they are NOT involved in their children's life. They are too preoccuipied with getting that Beamer then making sure that Johnny does his homework.
That may or may not be the parent's fault. I have seen some parents who want to spend time with their kid, but can't because they have to go to work at 5 am to beat the traffic and they end up staying past 6 so they can avoid the traffic. Noone eats together any more (even my extended family has great difficulty getting thigns together during the holidays) and we spend many a off day at the office (if your in IT) so you can apply that patch during the downtime(doesn't happen much but it does happen).
I have also seem some parents who don't give a crap about their kids. They figure once they are old enough to go to school that it's the schools problem...but then they come back on the teachers and say don't punish my kid. What are teachers to do? First thing I will tell my son's teacher is that they have my permission to punish him. If he is in a fight, they can put their hands on him and break it up. That's fine by me.
That beamer comment felt a lot like my school--the public school I went to out in the burbs before my family moved out of an urban setting where the schools sucked and I attended a private school.
Anyway, the most obvious difference was how different the teachers were. Public school techers in general did not seem to have the same level of committment my private school teachers had. My public school teachers thought I had learning disabilites. My parents knew better...I was bored out of my mind in the publi
For decades parents were actively discouraged from participating in their children's education, and were told that their only welcome contribution was to join the PTA and send money. The modern secular homeschooling movement, which was essentially founded in the early 1970s, was at least in part a reaction to how incredibly disenfranchised parents were then.
Please remember that was the day and age in which people we're only beginning to ask for "second opinions" in doctors' offices, and that was controve
That one cracked me up. I was born in England, and we were using Bunsen burners in our chemistry labs in 2nd year (occasionaly, and while being closely monitored) - actually the age equiv. of 1st grade over here in the 'States. I have no idea whatsoever if that was representative by the way. Anyway, I moved to Texas when I was 10 (dad worked for TI) and didn't learn anything new (or fun) for about two years. Literally. Pretty sad, actually.
My wife taught in a private school for 3 years, and just quit at the end of last year. While this may be about the public school system where parents aren't normally involved with their students, the opposite can be equally as damaging.
She taught 6-8th grade French. She has a masters in French, and yet some parents (who didn't speak French at all!) were suggesting ways she could improve her class. She had one parent who refused to let her son read "The Little Prince" b
You hit the nail on the head there. The real problem is parents and expectations.
We have this ideal that "all children are equal, all children can learn." The problem is, it just isn't true. The truth is, 75% of a childs performance will be determined by their parents. Crappy parents generally makes a crappy student.
So when some drug baby kid can't do his math, his fathers in jail, his mother pays him no attention...Somehow that blame is laid at *YOUR* door as a teacher.
I think I should interject some of my own experiences.
When I was little, I went to school in Japan for the first bit of elementary school, then went to American schools while taking saturday classes at a Japanese expatriate school until 3rd grade. I noticed a few things:
1) In math and a couple of other subjects, the Japanese schools were about a year ahead of the American ones. This actually hindered me later in life, because I became lazy in the American schools and 'coasted' without putting in much effo
If all the world's economists were laid end to end, we wouldn't reach a
conclusion.
-- William Baumol
This is brilliant (Score:5, Interesting)
We had a principal who was fantastic, because he was a former teacher from the area. But when he was replaced by someone with more "administrative experience" it was appalling how quickly things declined. Children aren't held to standards, parents come at odds with teachers, administrators point the finger at teachers, and the children are the ones left out in the cold.
In just one year there, I was chastised for
1) Driving students home to bad neighborhoods after dark.
2) Creating an extra-curricular dance program that "interfered" with the students curriculum.
3) Attempting to engage students with "dangerous" science demonstrations (i.e. using a bunsen burner constitutes dangerous, using 1 Tesla Magnets constitutes dangerous.)
4) Breaking up a fight with my bare hands (I was chastised for "laying my hands" upon the students.)
The list goes on. I truly believe that the entire system needs reform, from the bottom up and the top down. But without involved parents, administrators who take full responsibility, students who are forced to live with their choices instead of having excuses made for them, and up to date equipment and books, it truly is a lost cause except for the few self-motivated students.
Re:This is brilliant (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:This is brilliant (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is brilliant (Score:2)
If you want to blame something, blame the political process for assigning promotions. Usually, the guy that becomes principal, or the guy that becomes CEO, is the one that never offended anyone or the one that never did anything.
Re:This is brilliant (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This is brilliant (Score:5, Insightful)
As funding for public schools continues to decline, it creates a larger separation between the rich and the poor and ensures an ongoing supply of worker bees. What I get out of your comment is that 'real' learning and knowledge should be constrained to private institutions where only the affluent have access. The public school joke is for the rest.
IMO, This continues into college as well. What do you think the real advantages are of going to places like Harvard or Yale? Sure, the quality of education is good, but more importantly, the students who go there are sons and daughters of presidents, senators and CEOs. They are all socializing with each other and building relationships that they carry with them when they are running the country in 20 years. It is nearly impossible for the average person to make similar 'connections'.
If we concentrate the learning into private schools, we are extending this problem into grade, middle and high schools and causing even further stratification between the upper and lower classes.
public school sucks, but I don't agree with the 'oh well, send them to private school' solution.
Re:This is brilliant (Score:2)
Keep in mind that you don't have to be rich to go to Harvard or
Re:This is brilliant (Score:2)
I read his comment as stating that private institutions are where the 'real' learning and knowledge are, not that that's where they should be.
Why is it... (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, you assume that the only way to provide education is at the public expense through taxpayer funded schools staffed by so-called "education professionals" and the only alternative is a costly priva
Re:Why is it... (Score:1)
Why is it that, when *every* other governement monopoly has been replaced by a competitive private equivalent, the quality of the product has gone up and the price of the product has come down but no one is willing to try this with primary education?
I'm not against experimentation -- targetd school choice programs might work in some areas. but for you to make a blanket statement about privatization ALWAYS succeedi
Re:This is brilliant (Score:3, Insightful)
Bullshit. This is bullshit. I'm not suggesting everyone send their kids to Exeter Academy.
A relative of mine (through marriage) who has two kids and lives in Elizabeth NJ managed to get her kids educated entirely in private schools on a salary of $35k/yr. How did she do it? She sacrifice
I don't see it that way (Score:3, Insightful)
Most (but certainly not all) private schools have a per pupil cost much lower than their neighboring public systems, and at least SEEM to produce better results, even comparing apples to apples in terms of student body.
I really don't understand how the same people who decry k12 educat
Re:This is brilliant (Score:1)
This is interesting. It seems that many people all over the world have this view. But to say that it is wrong would be an understatement. How many people who make these kinds of statements have actually experienced both sides of the fence?
Now, I don't live in the USA, but here in the UK the situation is very much the same; or at least the feeling that is being expressed by many posters resonate with my own experiences. I'm a first generation immigrant into the UK, from China. Admittedly my parents are aca
Re:This is brilliant (Score:1)
"i believe schools should be palaces" or something similar to that
they need money; money for a number of things because every child in this country deserves an education equal
Re:This is brilliant (Score:2)
I'm fairly unique here, in that I've went to seven K-12 schools (K-1 in Virginia, 2-5 in Hawaii, 6-8 in Missouri, 9 in another school
Re:This is brilliant (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This is brilliant (Score:2)
NarratorDan
Re:This is brilliant (Score:5, Insightful)
That may or may not be the parent's fault. I have seen some parents who want to spend time with their kid, but can't because they have to go to work at 5 am to beat the traffic and they end up staying past 6 so they can avoid the traffic. Noone eats together any more (even my extended family has great difficulty getting thigns together during the holidays) and we spend many a off day at the office (if your in IT) so you can apply that patch during the downtime(doesn't happen much but it does happen).
I have also seem some parents who don't give a crap about their kids. They figure once they are old enough to go to school that it's the schools problem...but then they come back on the teachers and say don't punish my kid. What are teachers to do? First thing I will tell my son's teacher is that they have my permission to punish him. If he is in a fight, they can put their hands on him and break it up. That's fine by me.
Re:This is brilliant (Score:1)
Anyway, the most obvious difference was how different the teachers were. Public school techers in general did not seem to have the same level of committment my private school teachers had. My public school teachers thought I had learning disabilites. My parents knew better...I was bored out of my mind in the publi
Grrrrrr. (Score:2)
For decades parents were actively discouraged from participating in their children's education, and were told that their only welcome contribution was to join the PTA and send money. The modern secular homeschooling movement, which was essentially founded in the early 1970s, was at least in part a reaction to how incredibly disenfranchised parents were then.
Please remember that was the day and age in which people we're only beginning to ask for "second opinions" in doctors' offices, and that was controve
Re:This is brilliant (Score:2)
That one cracked me up. I was born in England, and we were using Bunsen burners in our chemistry labs in 2nd year (occasionaly, and while being closely monitored) - actually the age equiv. of 1st grade over here in the 'States. I have no idea whatsoever if that was representative by the way. Anyway, I moved to Texas when I was 10 (dad worked for TI) and didn't learn anything new (or fun) for about two years. Literally. Pretty sad, actually.
Be careful what you ask for... (Score:2)
My wife taught in a private school for 3 years, and just quit at the end of last year. While this may be about the public school system where parents aren't normally involved with their students, the opposite can be equally as damaging.
She taught 6-8th grade French. She has a masters in French, and yet some parents (who didn't speak French at all!) were suggesting ways she could improve her class. She had one parent who refused to let her son read "The Little Prince" b
Re:This is brilliant (Score:2)
We have this ideal that "all children are equal, all children can learn." The problem is, it just isn't true. The truth is, 75% of a childs performance will be determined by their parents. Crappy parents generally makes a crappy student.
So when some drug baby kid can't do his math, his fathers in jail, his mother pays him no attention...Somehow that blame is laid at *YOUR* door as a teacher.
Case in point: almost my wh
Re:This is brilliant (Score:3, Informative)
When I was little, I went to school in Japan for the first bit of elementary school, then went to American schools while taking saturday classes at a Japanese expatriate school until 3rd grade. I noticed a few things:
1) In math and a couple of other subjects, the Japanese schools were about a year ahead of the American ones. This actually hindered me later in life, because I became lazy in the American schools and 'coasted' without putting in much effo