First, the education system here is based on some industrial-conformity training system devised by industrialists in the 1800s, or therabouts.
It is not really natural or right for kids of a certain age to be sitting in a desk all day. Boys especially need to have a break at certain stages of their growth, usually about 13-15 yo, when they should be sent away from home to some sort of boarding school/military school/vocational school arrangement, at least for a time. It all depends on the kid.
Before we get to deeply into "No, your country sucks!" (mixed in with "My country sucks!"), let's pause for a little perspective:
The fact is that millions of irreproachably competent graduates, and quite a few phenomenal ones, are coming out of the US educational system. And the Japanese and the German and the Australian and the British and the South Korean and the Swedish and the...
The notion that the US educational system, or that of any other developed country, exists to destroy students is self-evident
At least in terms of literacy, the US tends to fail on the lowest levels of competency, but excels [literacynet.org] at the highest level of competency. Only Sweden does better.
What this means is that we have a greater number of both low achievers (people who are functionally illiterate) and high achievers (people who can read highly technical and dense material). The US educational system has a much flatter distribution curve than the typical European country.
We also have a much more diverse population base than do most European countries (and Japan as well). We have a much higher "recent immigrant" population than Sweden or Japan do. Unsurprisingly, it tends to be these recent immiigrants who, understandably, fill the ranks of the lowest performers in literacy (and income as well).
Until these studies adjust for such large differences in population dynamics, we'll always tend to look like underachievers compared to the rest of the world. The surprising thing isn't how badly our schools educate our population, it's how well they do so given the amazingly diverse population they are serving.
None of the above should be construed to be a ringing endorsement of the US educational establishment. There are a lot of problems with US education. The education of gifted children in K-12 in most of the US is scandalous, and huge differences in per pupil spending is its own scandal. But nearly any school in the US will educate your child well enough to get into a good college as long as you show a modicum of interest in your child's education. Lack of parental involvement or interest is probably the biggest problem in US public education right now.
I really hate writing "me too" posts, but those last two sentences are spot on. Parents have to appreciate and encourage their childrens' education for their children to get one.
If the children don't care because their parents just see school as free day care, it won't matter how much money we throw at the schools or how lively and wonderful the teachers are. The kids won't learn if their parents don't care.
it won't matter how much money we throw at the schools or how lively and wonderful the teachers are
And in some cases its not the money we through at the school that is counter-productive. My mother is one of the best educators I ever hope to see. In her, in the heart of Georgia's poorest county, her students are an a "track system" where students are placed in classes ("tracks") according to ability.
Disregarding notions of fairness, this places the poorest performing (and poorest students) in here clas
Lack of parental involvement or interest is probably the biggest problem in US public education right now.
Hmmm... I wonder if tax incentives to the parents of children who perform in the top X percentile of their class would motivate parents to become better involved.
tax incentives to the parents of children who perform in the top X percentile of their class would motivate parents to become better involved.
I recognize the good intentions behind your idea, but I shudder when I think about what that would mean.
Think about the children who would then feel that they were responsible, not just for getting good grades, but for whether or not the family could afford a vacation in the summer, or (at the extreme) to buy new clothes or food.
At least in terms of literacy, the US tends to fail on the lowest levels of competency, but excels [literacynet.org] at the highest level of competency. Only Sweden does better.
Actually, according to your own quote it is Canada that bests the United States at the highest level of competency:
Of the 11 other countries that participated in the International Adult Literacy Survey (IALS), only Sweden exceeded the United States in the percentage of adults scoring at the highest levels of literacy in any of t
I don't think canada has the same degree of non-english speaking immigrants though.
There are very large immigrant populations in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. As the grandparent pointed out they're mostly from Asia & Africa. Though the actual number is probably much smaller than the US, remember Canada is only about 1/10th its size. I'm not sure what the proportions are, but having spent the last few years in Toronto, I wouldn't be so quick to make your conclusion.
Actually, according to your own quote it is Canada that bests the United States at the highest level of competency:
Of the 11 other countries that participated in the International Adult Literacy Survey (IALS),
only Sweden exceeded the United States in the percentage of adults scoring at the highest levels of literacy in any of the three domains; the only exception was Canada, which had a greater proportion of adults scoring at or above level 4 on the document scale than did the United States.
That doesn't really say much. I mean, theoretically all 52% of Torontoans from outside Canada could have come from one place. I didn't find Toronto especially diverse compared to say NYC when I visited it.
At least in terms of literacy, the US tends to fail on the lowest levels of competency, but excels at the highest level of competency. Only Sweden does better.
Though I don't know that I'd trust a test for high levels of literacy presented by an organization who would write something like:
"Of the 11 other countries that participated in the International Adult Literacy Survey (IALS), only Sweden exceeded the United States in the percentage of adults scoring at the highest levels of literacy in any of the
If you continue down to page 89 of that PDF [ed.gov], it has an interesting breakdown of education levels based on ethnicity and recency of migration to the US.
In the most recent survey (1996), foreign-born Hispanics (who comprise the majority of recent US immigrants) have a less than high school level of education approaching 50% (and for Mexicans, over 60%). In contrast, foreign-born blacks (presumably African and Caribbean immigrants) have around 14% at that low level, while Asian/Pacific Island immigrants are
Actually, the US foreign-born population is just under 12 percent [state.gov], with about half that number from Latin America.
Though I couldn't find any breakouts purely for foreign-born, Sweden's foreign-born and first generation immigrant mix is 20 percent [state.gov]. The majority of immigrants appear to be from other Nordic countries, with large numbers of refugess from the former Yugoslavia and a sizeable Iranian/Iraqi population.
Canada currently has the second largest percentage of foreign-born at 18.4 percent [wsws.org]. The major
Parental involvement has a huge impact, yup. But not only do parents need to refuse to take any crap from the school system, they need to teach their children that ultimately the course of the child's education is the responsibility of the child. If the child is bored in certain classes, they should not be content to just coast through the class for an easy pass. If I'd have realized this while I was still in school, I'd probably have graduated high school two years earlier.
What this means is that we have a greater number of both low achievers (people who are functionally illiterate) and high achievers (people who can read highly technical and dense material). The US educational system has a much flatter distribution curve than the typical European country.
The reason for this is simple: there's no such thing as an American school system. Public schools are one of those things that are regulated at the state and municipal levels so that while Mr. Gatto's conclusions may in
All science is either physics or stamp collecting.
-- Ernest Rutherford
As a former teacher, I agree--it's not fixable (Score:2, Interesting)
It is not really natural or right for kids of a certain age to be sitting in a desk all day. Boys especially need to have a break at certain stages of their growth, usually about 13-15 yo, when they should be sent away from home to some sort of boarding school/military school/vocational school arrangement, at least for a time. It all depends on the kid.
Once again, E
Re: (Score:5, Informative)
Re:As a former teacher, I agree--it's not fixable (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact is that millions of irreproachably competent graduates, and quite a few phenomenal ones, are coming out of the US educational system. And the Japanese and the German and the Australian and the British and the South Korean and the Swedish and the...
The notion that the US educational system, or that of any other developed country, exists to destroy students is self-evident
Re:As a former teacher, I agree--it's not fixable (Score:5, Interesting)
What this means is that we have a greater number of both low achievers (people who are functionally illiterate) and high achievers (people who can read highly technical and dense material). The US educational system has a much flatter distribution curve than the typical European country.
We also have a much more diverse population base than do most European countries (and Japan as well). We have a much higher "recent immigrant" population than Sweden or Japan do. Unsurprisingly, it tends to be these recent immiigrants who, understandably, fill the ranks of the lowest performers in literacy (and income as well).
Until these studies adjust for such large differences in population dynamics, we'll always tend to look like underachievers compared to the rest of the world. The surprising thing isn't how badly our schools educate our population, it's how well they do so given the amazingly diverse population they are serving.
None of the above should be construed to be a ringing endorsement of the US educational establishment. There are a lot of problems with US education. The education of gifted children in K-12 in most of the US is scandalous, and huge differences in per pupil spending is its own scandal. But nearly any school in the US will educate your child well enough to get into a good college as long as you show a modicum of interest in your child's education. Lack of parental involvement or interest is probably the biggest problem in US public education right now.
Re:As a former teacher, I agree--it's not fixable (Score:1)
If the children don't care because their parents just see school as free day care, it won't matter how much money we throw at the schools or how lively and wonderful the teachers are. The kids won't learn if their parents don't care.
Re:As a former teacher, I agree--it's not fixable (Score:2)
And in some cases its not the money we through at the school that is counter-productive. My mother is one of the best educators I ever hope to see. In her, in the heart of Georgia's poorest county, her students are an a "track system" where students are placed in classes ("tracks") according to ability.
Disregarding notions of fairness, this places the poorest performing (and poorest students) in here clas
A possible solution? (Score:2)
Hmmm... I wonder if tax incentives to the parents of children who perform in the top X percentile of their class would motivate parents to become better involved.
Re:A possible solution? (Score:1)
I recognize the good intentions behind your idea, but I shudder when I think about what that would mean.
Think about the children who would then feel that they were responsible, not just for getting good grades, but for whether or not the family could afford a vacation in the summer, or (at the extreme) to buy new clothes or food.
Consider the parents who would mer
Re:A possible solution? (Score:1)
Re:As a former teacher, I agree--it's not fixable (Score:2)
Actually, according to your own quote it is Canada that bests the United States at the highest level of competency:
Re:As a former teacher, I agree--it's not fixable (Score:2)
Re:As a former teacher, I agree--it's not fixable (Score:1)
There are very large immigrant populations in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. As the grandparent pointed out they're mostly from Asia & Africa. Though the actual number is probably much smaller than the US, remember Canada is only about 1/10th its size. I'm not sure what the proportions are, but having spent the last few years in Toronto, I wouldn't be so quick to make your conclusion.
Re:As a former teacher, I agree--it's not fixable (Score:1)
Re:As a former teacher, I agree--it's not fixable (Score:1)
Do you have anything to back this up? I've seen it claimed elsewhere, but nobody seems to have proof.
Re:As a former teacher, I agree--it's not fixable (Score:1)
Re:As a former teacher, I agree--it's not fixable (Score:1)
Though I don't know that I'd trust a test for high levels of literacy presented by an organization who would write something like:
Re:As a former teacher, I agree--it's not fixable (Score:1)
In the most recent survey (1996), foreign-born Hispanics (who comprise the majority of recent US immigrants) have a less than high school level of education approaching 50% (and for Mexicans, over 60%). In contrast, foreign-born blacks (presumably African and Caribbean immigrants) have around 14% at that low level, while Asian/Pacific Island immigrants are
Re:As a former teacher, I agree--it's not fixable (Score:2, Informative)
Though I couldn't find any breakouts purely for foreign-born, Sweden's foreign-born and first generation immigrant mix is 20 percent [state.gov]. The majority of immigrants appear to be from other Nordic countries, with large numbers of refugess from the former Yugoslavia and a sizeable Iranian/Iraqi population.
Canada currently has the second largest percentage of foreign-born at 18.4 percent [wsws.org]. The major
Re:As a former teacher, I agree--it's not fixable (Score:2)
Re:As a former teacher, I agree--it's not fixable (Score:1)
The article has some statements that the real amount paid (money spent per pupil) has increased over time. Is money spent necessarily the best metric?
Re:As a former teacher, I agree--it's not fixable (Score:2)
What this means is that we have a greater number of both low achievers (people who are functionally illiterate) and high achievers (people who can read highly technical and dense material). The US educational system has a much flatter distribution curve than the typical European country.
The reason for this is simple: there's no such thing as an American school system. Public schools are one of those things that are regulated at the state and municipal levels so that while Mr. Gatto's conclusions may in