by Anonymous Coward writes:
on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @02:19PM (#10179627)
I have been railing against the mis-use of the university system in North America for years. It is no longer about learning, but memorizing, cheating and begging to get a 'grade' so you can get a job. It's a system designed to keep young people out of the work force (because work is mostly illusory these days anyways) , to keep them in debt and create a class of permanent woker/paupers with the illusion of being 'educated'. So they can get ready to compete against each other to curry favor with the dominant monkeys instead of enjoying life.
The problem with that argument is that over a lifetime, a university education pays itself back in increased earnings many times over. The other problem with that argument is that the undergraduate system feeds the graduate system. Somehow, graduate students are showing up, educated and prepared, despite having "wasted" the previous 4 years. If college was really that worthless, I'd expect we'd be hearing about high school diploma holders making more money on average (they have 4 years more to work) and gra
The problem with that argument is that over a lifetime, a university education pays itself back in increased earnings many times over.
I believe you got the tense there wrong. The verb is "payed", because what you are talking about is past results.
As with most investments, past performace is not an indication of future performance, especially with a new economy that seems to be sending the most aggregately remunerative jobs of the past (high-tech, white collar jobs) overseas without providing replacements.
And after interviewing piles of students with undergrad and grad degrees in CS, CE, or EE for programming positions, a degree doesn't mean jack about thier ability to:
A) Write good code B) Think about their designs C) Produce even an estimate of commonly used algorthms that are taught as part of any CS curriculum.
I'm sorry, but if you give me a blank stare when I ask for rough version of a singly-linked list insert routine, you're not getting hired. Not to work on my product, that is. Especially when afte
Approach from the other side, and it looks a little different. Your point seems to be that an advanced degree doesn't mean success. True, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
But on the other side, look at the successful people making real contributions to society. I don't mean Donald Trump, I mean they people working on nanotech, designing new silicon fabrication processes, pushing the boundaries of Astronony or Physics, curing cancer. What do all of these people have? Advanced degre
From the people that I've met, being able to make those leaps and those discoveries isn't related to what education that they have.
Therefore from my experience, it appears that saying that we need the educational institution that we have to develop these sorts of things is wrong.
I know many MIT grads, not all are equal. The best tended to work in the labs, and do cool and interesting things while they were getting their degrees. (not necessarily well-rounded people, but people that concentrated on more
well I tell you what. Take two people all things being equal. One gets a 4 year degree, in say education, the other at 18 years old becomes a plumber. Assuming both people are thrifty, hard working people who invest 50% of income( after basic living costs, not including student loans) wisely( in the same ways)who will be richer at 28? Who will be making more money at 30?
Keep in mind in Texas( where I live) a master plumber takes in around 7-80 k per year. You can have your masters license in around 8yea
I tell y'all what. If you can put up with playing with other people's faeces, become a master plumber. The rest of us should go to college.
If you're actually arguing in favor of becoming a bum, let me know what corner is yours and I'll drop a buck into your hat every once in a while on my way home from the office.
Study after study has shown that 33% of all students cheat to get their bachelor's in engineering.
So everyone in bachelor's degree programs is an engineering student? I fail to see what you're getting at with that statement - it would seem to indicate a problem with that program in particular, not the whole university system.
You sound like a cancer cell. Really. Life is not all about acquiring resources. That's the mentality you get in school, my friend.
I felt the same way when I was at Rutgers. I see people being book zombies, but not really learning anything. I learned a lot from a few classes (CompSci/Physics), but some other classes seemed to have no point. Just review and spew courses, which I had trouble with. When I learn things, I remember for my whole life. When I have to give you copies of information, I will forget when I am done. And what does that get me?
Friends who graduated large universities do not remember 95% of what they went to schoo
It's a system designed to keep young people out of the work force (because work is mostly illusory these days anyways) , to keep them in debt and create a class of permanent woker/paupers with the illusion of being 'educated'.
Wow, that says a mouthful. I remember when I was laid off and unemployed, that it sucked that I had to find a "real job" instead of something like a labor or simple service job. Why? Because of my student loans. I figured that it would take me roughly $12/hour just to pay my mini
A friend of mine, who has a Master's degree and is married to a college professor, recently called me "one of the smartest people (he'd) ever met".
He was flabbergasted to find out that I'd gone through the Chicago public grade/high school system, and had only completed a few years of commuter-school college before leaving to start my career at a no-paying job within my chosen industry. My logic at the time was "working for free is cheaper than tuition, and I'm going to learn a lot more."
In addition to learning about the industry, I learned a lot about getting by in life (at the industry jobs and at my many part-time jobs prior) and about the relative uselessness of a college degree.
Also of note: my old buddies from the neighborhood I grew up in either went to college or didn't, and either stayed in factory jobs or went into more lucrative and thoughtful industries -- but the dividing line between the destinations doesn't appear to jibe with the college/no college choice. Rather, it more or less lines up with how intelligent they seemed to be when they were fourteen years old.
One more thing: my father was the only one of his poor family who went on to relative prosperity. He was working as a security guard at IBM, and started teaching himself computers from the manuals that the staff left lying around. He eventually applied for and landed a job there, which started his lifetime career as a systems analyst. He also had only a few years of college under his belt.
He eventually applied for and landed a job there, which started his lifetime career as a systems analyst. He also had only a few years of college under his belt.
You'd have to wonder if anyone could pull this off in the same way today. Many HR departments cast off resumes right out of hand for not having degrees/certs. The web based ones like Taleo are even worse, using keyword weighting to sift though resumes, rejecting the ones that don't make the cut according to that criteria before human eyes even s
I don't see why not. I dropped out of college partway through my junior year, and started working for a Fortune 100 financial services company at which I'd interned during school breaks. I seemed to do okay with it. At the time I was 19 or 20, and was hired as a Senior Systems Analyst. (I think--I had a few different titles while I was there due to the usual reorgs)
Oh--I'm 23 now, happily employed elsewhere, and I took time off between during which I taught ballroom and latin dance fulltime. I'm probab
No you're not the only one. I dropped out of college the first semester of my second year, wasn't for me. Kicked around the country, learned "how to work" Rekindled my interes in electronic and computers and successfuly landed a job 10 years later making 70k plus that i've held for 5 years.
I'm 37 years old and believe this happens all the time.
start my career at a no-paying job within my chosen industry.
In most places this is illegal, thanks to the power of featherbedding labor unions. They are responsible for the minimum-wage laws, and hence for high unemployment among young and poorly educated people. They DEFINITELY don't like competing against volunteers [signonsandiego.com] or unpaid apprentices.
The Democrats are so in hock to the unions for manpower and money, they ignore the fact that unions regularly shit all over the most marginalized workers in our so
It's a system designed to keep young people out of the work force [...] , to keep them in debt and create a class of permanent woker/paupers with the illusion of being 'educated'.
I agree. It used to be the draft that kept the young out of the work force; now it is just as you say. The "subjects" people learn in college are laughable, and people graduate knowing, in most cases, nothing.
College has become largely vocational, and students learn things that would be better learned on the job. The entir
I hate to be contrarian, but Gatto is talking, in particular, about a much newer education system: public schooling for children. Whether the university system is appropriate or not is certainly debatable, but not germane to the topic. The universities easily predate institutions like public high schools and elementaries. If they have been bent towards the same goals as their counterparts, it is not because the universities are complicit in design, but because it is demanded to be this way.
Enrollment and s
All science is either physics or stamp collecting.
-- Ernest Rutherford
No kidding. (Score:2, Insightful)
So they can get ready to compete against each other to curry favor with the dominant monkeys instead of enjoying life.
"curry favor with the dominant monkeys" (Score:1, Offtopic)
Re:No kidding. (Score:2)
True. I read this quote in a
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education -- Mark Twain"
Re:No kidding. (Score:2)
Re:No kidding. (Score:2)
I believe you got the tense there wrong. The verb is "payed", because what you are talking about is past results.
As with most investments, past performace is not an indication of future performance, especially with a new economy that seems to be sending the most aggregately remunerative jobs of the past (high-tech, white collar jobs) overseas without providing replacements.
Re:No kidding. (Score:1)
A) Write good code
B) Think about their designs
C) Produce even an estimate of commonly used algorthms that are taught as part of any CS curriculum.
I'm sorry, but if you give me a blank stare when I ask for rough version of a singly-linked list insert routine, you're not getting hired. Not to work on my product, that is. Especially when afte
Re:No kidding. (Score:2)
But on the other side, look at the successful people making real contributions to society. I don't mean Donald Trump, I mean they people working on nanotech, designing new silicon fabrication processes, pushing the boundaries of Astronony or Physics, curing cancer. What do all of these people have? Advanced degre
Re:No kidding. (Score:1)
Therefore from my experience, it appears that saying that we need the educational institution that we have to develop these sorts of things is wrong.
I know many MIT grads, not all are equal. The best tended to work in the labs, and do cool and interesting things while they were getting their degrees. (not necessarily well-rounded people, but people that concentrated on more
Re:No kidding. (Score:2)
Is it true that all people who have the education will cure cancer? Of course not.
Is it true that the cure for cancer will come from someone who has the education? If I had a million bucks, I'd bet it double or nothing that it will.
Re:No kidding. (Score:1)
Re:No kidding. (Score:2)
If you're actually arguing in favor of becoming a bum, let me know what corner is yours and I'll drop a buck into your hat every once in a while on my way home from the office.
Re:No kidding. (Score:2)
Speak for yourself. Maybe you need to find a different school, if that's been your experience.
So they can get ready to compete against each other to curry favor with the dominant monkeys instead of enjoying life.
In my experience, the people yelling this the loudest also seem to forget to come up with a way to acquire the resources to enjoy life.
If you think college is worthless - then how would
Re:No kidding. (Score:2)
So everyone in bachelor's degree programs is an engineering student? I fail to see what you're getting at with that statement - it would seem to indicate a problem with that program in particular, not the whole university system.
You sound like a cancer cell. Really. Life is not all about acquiring resources. That's the mentality you get in school, my friend.
Uh, right. You want people to enjoy life to the
Re:No kidding. (Score:1)
Friends who graduated large universities do not remember 95% of what they went to schoo
Re:No kidding. (Score:2)
Wow, that says a mouthful. I remember when I was laid off and unemployed, that it sucked that I had to find a "real job" instead of something like a labor or simple service job. Why? Because of my student loans. I figured that it would take me roughly $12/hour just to pay my mini
Re:No kidding. (Score:4, Interesting)
He was flabbergasted to find out that I'd gone through the Chicago public grade/high school system, and had only completed a few years of commuter-school college before leaving to start my career at a no-paying job within my chosen industry. My logic at the time was "working for free is cheaper than tuition, and I'm going to learn a lot more."
In addition to learning about the industry, I learned a lot about getting by in life (at the industry jobs and at my many part-time jobs prior) and about the relative uselessness of a college degree.
Also of note: my old buddies from the neighborhood I grew up in either went to college or didn't, and either stayed in factory jobs or went into more lucrative and thoughtful industries -- but the dividing line between the destinations doesn't appear to jibe with the college/no college choice. Rather, it more or less lines up with how intelligent they seemed to be when they were fourteen years old.
One more thing: my father was the only one of his poor family who went on to relative prosperity. He was working as a security guard at IBM, and started teaching himself computers from the manuals that the staff left lying around. He eventually applied for and landed a job there, which started his lifetime career as a systems analyst. He also had only a few years of college under his belt.
Re:No kidding. (Score:2, Interesting)
You'd have to wonder if anyone could pull this off in the same way today. Many HR departments cast off resumes right out of hand for not having degrees/certs. The web based ones like Taleo are even worse, using keyword weighting to sift though resumes, rejecting the ones that don't make the cut according to that criteria before human eyes even s
Re:No kidding. (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh--I'm 23 now, happily employed elsewhere, and I took time off between during which I taught ballroom and latin dance fulltime. I'm probab
Re:No kidding. (Score:2, Interesting)
I dropped out of college the first semester of my second year, wasn't for me.
Kicked around the country, learned "how to work"
Rekindled my interes in electronic and computers and successfuly landed a job 10 years later making 70k plus that i've held for 5 years.
I'm 37 years old and believe this happens all the time.
Lucky the union goons didn't catch you (Score:3, Interesting)
In most places this is illegal, thanks to the power of featherbedding labor unions. They are responsible for the minimum-wage laws, and hence for high unemployment among young and poorly educated people. They DEFINITELY don't like competing against volunteers [signonsandiego.com] or unpaid apprentices.
The Democrats are so in hock to the unions for manpower and money, they ignore the fact that unions regularly shit all over the most marginalized workers in our so
Educational-financial complex (Score:2)
I agree. It used to be the draft that kept the young out of the work force; now it is just as you say. The "subjects" people learn in college are laughable, and people graduate knowing, in most cases, nothing.
College has become largely vocational, and students learn things that would be better learned on the job. The entir
Re:No kidding. (Score:2)
Enrollment and s