Salon on Geeks and Sex 329
Runna^Muck was the first to write to us about a new Salon article discussing the sexual climate in Silicon Valley. Not nearly as good as other articles on the subject, this feature covers everything from Geeks & their dominant tastes as well as why foreign workers don't get lucky.
Sex? (Score:4)
Pseudocode mixed with English is annoying (Score:3)
$ok = 1;
} elsif ($article =~
$ok = 1;
} else {
This mixing gets annoying and hard to read, doesn't it? The comment is not the code. English doesn't get mixed with pseudocode well.
}
In the spirit of the article, some humour ... (Score:5)
Upgrade GirlFriend 1.0 to Wife 1.0
Last year a friend of mine upgraded from GirlFriend 1.0 to Wife 1.0 and found that it's a memory hog leaving very little system resources available for other applications.
He is only now noticing that Wife 1.0 is also spawning Child Processes which are further consuming valuable resources. No mention of this particular phenomenon was included in the product brochure or the documentation, though other users have informed him that this is to be expected due to the nature of the application. Not only that, Wife 1.0 installs itself such that it is always launched at system initialization, where it can monitor all other system activity. He's finding that some applications such as PokerNight 10.3, BeerBash 2.5, and PubNight 7.0 are no longer able to run in the system at all, crashing the system when selected (even though they always worked fine before). During installation, Wife 1.0 provides no option as to the installation of undesired Plug-ins such as MotherInLaw 55.8 and SisterInLaw Beta release. Also, system performance seems to diminish with each passing day.
Some features he'd like to see in the upcoming Wife 2.0:
I myself decided to avoid the headaches associated with Wife 1.0 by sticking with Girlfriend 2.0. Even here, however, I found many problems. Apparently you cannot install Girlfriend 2.0 on top of Girlfriend 1.0. You must uninstall Girlfriend 1.0 first. Other users say this is a long standing bug that I should have known about. Apparently the versions of Girlfriend have conflicts over shared use of the I/O port. You would think they would have fixed such a stupid bug by now. To make matters worse, the uninstall program for Girlfriend 1.0 doesn't work very well leaving undesirable traces of the application in the system.
Another thing -- all versions of Girlfriend continually popup little annoying messages about the advantages of upgrading to Wife 1.0
*** BUG WARNING ****
Wife 1.0 has an undocumented bug. If you try to install Mistress 1.1 before uninstalling Wife 1.0, Wife 1.0 will delete MSMoney files before doing the uninstall itself. Then Mistress 1.1 will refuse to install; claiming insufficient resources.
Wife 1.1.01 (Score:1)
Relationships are hard work (Score:4)
I think the article is missing the point. It's not a problem of geeks not having sex, it's a problem of geeks having difficulties forming non-computer based relationships. People don't tend to react the same way twice to a given action. This tends to confuse most geeks. You can't walk up to a non-geek, press here, say this, kiss, and hop in bed with them. Seinfeld put it best -- "When it comes to sex, men are like firemen. Always ready. Women are like fire. Not always there when you want it, but when the conditions are right, the result is magical."
I've been married for a spell now, and I have three kids. When my wife and I started dating, we did not hop immediately into bed. We had to get to know each other first.
Sex is mutual concent between two people. Build the relationship and they will come.
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Fluff. (Score:4)
It strikes me all the pseudocode is there just to cover up the lack of real material in the article. Yes, some high-tech workers don't have sex high on the priority list. It happens in Silicon Valley and I've seen it happen in Michigan (not a jab at the Geek Compound; I have friends in Michigan parts of this article describe). So some geeks like alternate sexual methodologies. So? I think that the article would have fit in one page without all the bad (and sometimes buggy) pseudocode.
In fact, I'd have to argue that various bits of alternative sexuality don't have precise protocols. Not being into all the alternatives I cannot comment on them, but I don't think there's a big book of algorithms for going about alternative sexual practices. It's just that high-tech workers know what they want. They're not about to go and not communicate their needs because they think that doing so would be filthy. We know what we want, not that we have a precise checklist.
Lame article (Score:5)
Re:Horrible style of article... (Score:4)
Instead, I think the problem is that geeks, especially computer geeks (a group to which I belong), tend to get VERY drawn up in their work, and sort of shut out the rest of the world.
To illustrate that point, we should note that geeks don't "get" enough of in their day-to-day lives often...it's not just sex....it's also: nutrition, sleep, and nearly everything else that gets in the way of accomplishing goals. Driven people make sacrifices and many geeks make sex one of their sacrifices. Add to that the culture shock of Geeks-on-Visas and you have a real fouled up situation.
just my $0.02.
Re:Need that Sleeper gadget (Score:1)
Re:Pseudocode mixed with English is annoying (Score:1)
Re:Horrible style of article... (Score:3)
geeks and sex (Score:2)
Begin Rant:
well, i managed to read most of the article, though my mind went drifting on the last page, no offense ppl but i could care less about Silicon Valleys BDSM fetishes and such.
As everyone else has stated the psuedo-code is really fxckin annonying (though i did think the first portion was kinda funny) then its redundent.
This in closing is primarily for Salon, and a little bit for /. WHY? How many people are truly all that interested in the sex lives of Silicon Valley, and the rest of the technoholics personal lives? ...Did we all like suddenly become symbols of American culture? ...Is Linus, Gates, or Jobs (etc.) staring in an intence romance movie or become sex-symbols?
END RANT
PS. Sorry bout that....
Re:Fluff. (Score:1)
Think again my friend!
Look at this [amazon.com] and don't miss the comments.
...but not at work (Score:3)
But even more important, IMHO, is that you don't want to find romance at work. If something goes wrong, not only will you have the usual pressures at work, but now you've got that former someone there to just make life harder.
Not to mention that if you have a spectacular breakup, especially if the third party also works there, you'll be providing immense gossip fodder and other amusements for the rest of your coworkers. Well, OTOH, if it keeps morale up, why not?
You don't have to have unusual tastes to join us (Score:3)
But the secret is that you don't have to be a sadomasochist, or polyamourous, or queer to join. All you need is a few brain cells to rub together, and a positive and open attitude about sex and sexuality. There are organisations that campaign around all issues of sexual freedom and fight negative attitudes that apply even to the very desire to have sex at all, and you can get involved even if you're monogamous, vanilla, and heterosexual. You'll meet lots of interesting and smart people and hear a lot of new ideas on the subject, and you'll certainly hear about new ways to combat the fucked-up memes about sex that this society promotes - and which, if you ask me, are the real barriers that stand in the way of more geeks finding the special pleasures of getting laid.
If you are a pervert, of course, what are you doing? Get in touch with the e-pervs in your area straight away - it's a great opportunity.
Remember, this is important - it's about the serious business of having fun.
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SexDot (Score:1)
Recently I've noticed an increase in the number of articles about sex related issues. Are you trying to increase the readership by upping your chances of appearing in search engines?
Not a bad article... (Score:3)
Re:Lame article (Score:1)
about success (yes, who the hell you give money to IS Paulina's business, she's
curious about it, so it's HER money now, and you have to say).
Now she can pseudocode along with overgeneralizing, but her vapor smells the
same. I'm surprised her writing pays her enough to eat (or perhaps it doesn't, I
think I've detected a bit of rich-girl in her laments).
Re:Who needs sex? (Score:1)
Re:Horrible style of article... (Score:1)
Another interesting thought: Does this mean we should be less "nice" regarding the opposite sex? Whatever works, I guess... Not by any means a suggestion, just a thought.
Re:Who needs sex? (Score:1)
Re:SexDot (Score:1)
Re:Horrible style of article... (Score:2)
Perhaps a few girls might want to think about it, too.
JMR
(I find Paulina's writing -- even without the pseudocode -- incredibly annoying
and filled with stupid overgeneralizing. Don't buy her book!!!)
What the...? (Score:1)
I got so fed up with all the pseudo-code crap that I stopped reading mid way. What is the point of all that?
The article is very difficult to read. The sentences are poorly formed. Paragraphs with central ideas don't even exist. I mean, I am reading along one line of thought, and the author breaks my concentration with a bunch of "comments" that supposedly support the current idea, when in fact they just distract me. It was damn annoying.
I mean, code is code. Prose is prose. If you are going to excercise your wit by blending then, you damn well better be exceptional at both. Otherwise you are just confusing and irritating people.
Nothing can possiblai go wrong. Er...possibly go wrong.
Strange, that's the first thing that's ever gone wrong.
There are protocols (Score:5)
You all miss the point. Human behavior related to dating and sex always in large part determined by protocols. It can't avoid that -- instincts and culture always create some kind of protocol that determines the basics -- how complete strangers are supposed to start a conversation, how reaction can be judged, etc. Personality of every person determines, what actually is done, yet the basics are just as pre-determined as normal spoken language. There is nothing insulting to our human nature in it, strict rules of English language didn't make Shakespeare a worse writer than if he invented a language for himself, they provided means of expression. And just like people now have trouble understanding some thing in Shakespeare because he used slightly different language from modern English, cultural rules, involved in dating may be completely unknown or misunderstood by a person who comes from different culrural background -- especially from different country.
When people spend their whole life in the same or similar cultural environment they spend their childhood absorbing ("learning" won't be the right word) things that aren't completely based on instinct yet never are expressed in plain words. When any serious change of environment happens people always face the fact that environment changed and their rules don't work. People, unless they are very perceptive or interested in psychology, can't understand, what rules don't work -- they never "knew" rules that they apply in the first place. They get wrong ideas about what people are trying to express. My own main complaint for a long time was a tone, Americans use in their speech, smiles at completely inappropriate times, etc -- it looked like Americans allow themselves to be or look blatantly insincere with their friends and co-workers at the extent that I would consider to be a deep personal insult -- like if in the restaurant a waiter would bring me some dish that costs about $100 and supplied me with plastic fork and knife (no offence to people who didn't mean to insule me -- this is how they looked in the content of my, completely foreign for them, Russian culture).
Most of emotions, values and even behavior norms are universal (more universal than my spelling of "behavior" for sure). No self-respecting male geek (I am talking about men here) would tell a girl that he loves her, and be disinterested in her feelings, or would not try to make her feel comfortable. But the form, in which he would do that, or, even worse, form, in which he would try to start a conversation or judge first reaction to him, would unlikely match local cultural norms. Neither he nor girl would really understand it -- both are acting on things that never were written, expressed or explained to them, but both would feel discomfort in such a situation. In modern culture such discomfort is often expressed as that "chemistry" wasn't compatible (or, in subcultures that are not so fond for pseudoscientific explanations, "I have got a feeling that it isn't for me"), but this is wrong -- no "chemistry" unless it's some really noticeable stench of sweat, can be incompatible with everybody around, and no serious negative "feeling" can be derived from one minute of conversation with a stranger that behaves reasonably courteous. What we see here is plain and simple incompatibility of language, not some unreasonable expectations that human will behave like computer.
The really bad part of it is that no one seriously studied cultural norms of that kind -- people much more embarrassed to dig into "in what situation and how exactly it's appropriate to say 'how are you?' and demonstrate that the answer will be ignored" or "how is it appropriate to reject a guy, romantically interested in you while pretending to care about his feelings, so you wouldn't feel bad about yourself" than in any kind of sexually-freudian crap that ever was written in psychology books or was exchanged between psychoanalyst and patients. This mean, geeks, most of whom represent rather closed subculture, and especially foreign geeks, who represent completely different, sometimes hostile in their base cultures, have no means to learn them unless they will find a way to re-live at least teenage years immersed in this culture (as members, not as outsiders, like even local geeks are at their teenage years).
I understand that the approach that I have used here is clearly and blatantly geeky and definitely not compatible with an attitude, normal in this society. Still it doesn't make me wrong, and history knows a lot of cases when only this kind of approach succeeded in discovering (or expressing, or just in raising awareness) of problems that plagued the societies for decades. I don't know of any solution -- if I knew I would definitely used it for myself -- but I believe, people should realize that this problem exists, and try to solve it, not accuse geeks in "not being sensitive enough", suppress all thoughts of it, pretending that things are supposed to be that way.
What the hell are they talking about? (Score:1)
Cool article (Score:2)
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HAHAHAHAHA (Score:1)
It's not like no sex is a conscious choice... (Score:4)
That is, even though a lot of geeks were geeks before getting into computers, many geeks became geeks involuntarily because they got into computers. There's a list of contributing factors:
1. Computers aren't something you talk about in a bar. Unfortunately for tech workers, their jobs are all but unmentionable in a social setting. There is a geek stereotype which contributes to this, computers AREN'T sexy, and truthfully most people who aren't in the know about computers are mostly intimidated by those who do. It's kinda like being in high school and talking to girls about your SAT scores... you can pretty much kill a conversation if you both discover that you scored 400 points above the person you're talking to.
2. Long, grueling hours. To have a successful social life, time needs to be put into it. However, most tech jobs would make you work the 25th hour of the day if such an hour existed. Friends and lovers don't magically appear. Hell, you have to put a good two hours into buying them if you need to. This is sad that our industry knows this and doesn't really do much about it. In five years everyone's gonna have a midlife crisis (at 26) and jump ship anyway, so they're slowly but surely pushing their workers away by doing this.
3. You get into it. Most tech work can pretty much suck you in and never let go. The way that everything is so complicated and complex, once you're on a roll you don't really want to stop. I mean, you can be "in the zone" for a whole six months if you're working at it 14 hours a day (10 hours on the job + 4 thinking about it in the shower or in the car or while making dinner). Hell, most tech work REQUIRES this if you're going to do a decent job at it. Most professions requiring such intelligence (doctors, scientists, mathematicians, whatever) have this problem, because you can't take your time with the work, otherwise you'll never get anywhere relative to where the world stands now.
4. If computers are easy and women are hard to understand, you probably will stick with computers.
5. That ungodly male:female ratio in Silicon Valley doesn't help much either.
In the end, a lot of this happens unconciously and most people are drawn into a life that they utterly despise and feel trapped by. It's the type of thing where you have to get out when you see it happening to yourself, but most tech people are then further drawn in by the threat of upheaval, the money, the addictive power of the net, etc. In the end, you just have to look out for yourself and keep your priorities straight. If you want a social life that badly, you'll do what it takes to get one - losing your job and moving out of the Valley is a small price to pay for love. There's tech jobs all over the place, and some probably pay more and don't overwork you. Or maybe not, but like I said it's a small price to pay. If you don't think that way at all, then you're probably NOT having a problem with your sex life and you're probably thinking that Slashdot's been going a bit too far with the sex articles...
not enough geek girls for the geek guys ? (Score:2)
Re:What the hell are they talking about? (Score:2)
They talk about how nobody's getting any, then they talk about how everyone was into S&M, and then they started talking about how noone is getting any again. WTF?
In more simplified form it's something like "In this subculture the best way to get sex is to look for a kind of sex that 1. is rare (so people involved/interested in it will value them more), 2. breaks some norms in local society (so people, involved/interested in it would be tolerant to geeks, breaking other norms of the same society)".
Geekhood means making sacrifices... (Score:1)
Combine that with the fact that the "mating" in the overall sense is messy, confusing, and often expensive, and you end up with a lot of celibate geeks.
It must be something to do with CA (Score:1)
The stable relationship thing is a bit of a red herring as I have had options but none that suited.
Re:Horrible style of article... (Score:1)
Ahh..this is where you are wrong. Girls love arrogant assholes, haven't you noticed? Its because they are nice that they lose more often...
Chris
Re:Horrible style of article... (Score:1)
In my first year of uni i stayed the same geeky type person i was in school and ended up becoming v.good friends
Anyway, at the start of second year I made a concious effort to cut down how much I thought/talked about computers and subconciously I changed my social behaviour and started getting
I just stopped because others were bored - if I had a known it would do so much good I would have done the a LOT earlier.
There's a place for geekiness and it's not in the pub/club
Re:Who needs sex? (Score:1)
PunkAss, Inadvertenly Celibate Since October 1999 And Not Making Up Stories About Matriarchal Societies To Justify It...Yet
Re:She's missing one simple fact: (Score:2)
Geeks are ugly. Or, more to the point, people who sit around all day doing softare or electrical design, aren't usually the sort who live in their bodies. They tend to live in their heads, and sod all with that bag of flesh down below.
Counter-example -- me.
Article / Code (Score:3)
STOP RUNNING IT THROUGH THE PREPROCESSOR!
The proper way to view the article is with a web browser. You're not supposed to download it to article.c, and run 'cc -E article.c' to read the article. (and if you do, at least use the proper definitions for your situation, and remember that all comments will be stripped)
Anyhow, I thought it was a cute gimmick. And isn't that enough for Salon, sometimes?
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pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [152.7.41.11].
Re:Horrible style of article... (Score:2)
It's only funny *once*. (Score:2)
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Re:It must be something to do with CA (Score:2)
I do not relate to this article at all. I have a very healthy sex life but lack a stable relationship. I would prefer to have a good relationship but mindless sex helps me mind less. I find geek women are less likely to want to commit and prefer casual sex. I used to be married and I think I have more sex now, than when I was married (In fact I am sure I do).
You almost answered your own question. Just like geek girls are less interested in casual sex, a lot of geek guys aren't interested in it either. Foreign geek guys even more often so because in a lot of cultures either casual sex is frowned upon in general, or at least is considered acceptable with worthy partner (whatever "worthy" is, it rarely overlaps with a kind of american woman that likes to sleep around). So at least some geeks consider casual sex to be a "masturbation with female body" and are looking for something more meaningful.
Re:...but not at work (Score:5)
I think that if geeks expect that they will be able to find romance at work, there's nothing like an engineering company for that not to come true. Yeah, I guess it'd be nerdvana to have someone that actually understands what you do, but from my experience, that's probably not going to happen due to the abysmal M/F ratio.
The problem then becomes where does the average geek find someone. Many, if not most, are too shy/introverted/socially awkward to go to social situations for the purpose of meeting people. And it is important that a programmer's mate understands and is able to live with the life that goes with being a programmer. This is not a quality that I see in the general public.
But even more important, IMHO, is that you don't want to find romance at work. ...
This is true, regardless of profession. Sometimes it's worth the risk, but it would have to be pretty convincing for me (not that I'm looking; I'm married). But, that doesn't mean that you can't look within the industry or on the net.
-Jennifer
Use MS protocols! (Score:1)
So, I propose we use Microsoft proprietary protocols
If we can handle them and transfer the skills learned to interfacing with women then we're flying.
Sit up and take notice (Score:1)
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Re:There are protocols (Score:1)
This is true. I am blatantly insincere all the time because I am a sarcastic son-of-a-bitch, even when I don't know I am doing it. This is one of the reasons I think American slang and culture is pretty cool. It is totally obnoxious and makes people uncomfortable. Being perfectly sincere and polite gets boring after about 4.3 nanoseconds.
Chris
Chris
uh.. clueless writers (Score:1)
Re:My experience.... (Score:2)
So, am I the only one with this problem or are there others like me?
Others have the same problem but much worse. I have been programming for 14 years, 6 of them in this country, with stable result of zero attention from women in all situations that I happened to go through.
It's (almost) already here (Score:1)
Disclaimer: I am not a customer, really, not me, nope.
George
Re:not enough geek girls for the geek guys ? (Score:1)
Oh, come off it, that's total BS. Just because my S.O. isn't a coder, or even a geek, she knows that there are certain quirks of me and my personality. She also knows I need to play my guitar at absurd volumes at least 2 hours a day.
And, not just geek girls check their e-mail. As long as she's not a techno-phobe.
As the net and technology get more ingraned into our culture, the more "common" (and they aren't necessarily [sp] common, just not geeks) people do things that were before just the realm of geeks.
I was the first kid on my block to have an internet e-mail address through a local BBS. Aww yeah, I was a total geek.
Now, my 14 year old sister has one, and my mom, and my aunt, and my step-dad, and my future in-laws . . . And none of them use AOL, actually, i only know of one person that chose AOL as his ISP, only because it was there and he didn't want to wait for me to set up something else.
later
The other side of the fence (Score:1)
Part of the problem is that she goes to single bars to find men, which is about the worst way to find someone.
She's mentioned that she wants to find someone like me, but in reality, when I was single and looking, our paths would never have crossed.
How does she go about finding a nice, geeky guy who is not scared away by an instant family?
She did just get on AOL (no flames please, she lives an hour away, doesn't no anyone computer savvy any closer, and she needed an easy to use ISP, as she was computer illiterate a few months ago) and I want to help her with a homepage.
Thanks,
George
Re:The other side of the fence (Score:2)
How does she go about finding a nice, geeky guy who is not scared away by an instant family?
Good luck to her, but I should warn you and her -- geeks, no matter how bad do they feel, value their self-respect, and can reject a single mother for a simple reason that choosing a woman that has kids should be made by them consciously, not out of desperation. If they feel that they have no choice but look among women, stigmatized by society for something, they don't really relate to (geeks wouldn't have problem with a woman, stigmatized for her geekiness, manner of thinking, etc -- but social position with no "merit" is different), they can reject such a forced choice unless they will see something seriously valuable, _superior_ to others in that woman.
not sex, money (Score:1)
This Salon article is about money, lots of money, heaps and piles and stacks and windrows of cash, money like most people (that includes even really talented geeks) will never ever see in their lives. Just like all "tech" articles in Salon. Money to desire, money to envy, money all anyone really needs to know about "Silicon Valley," that wondrous West coast city-sized blackbox which extrudes so miraculously much money! Money, money, money, one and all kneel and worship almighty money.
bleh, WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net
Not the best of Salon... (Score:5)
Why aren't geeks having 'enough' sex? I don't know, but it might have something to do with long working days and lots of stress. Perhaps it has a little bit to do with a lot of greeks being 'fringed' as youngsters and not being into the courtship rituals. Maybe we just don't like people. Perhaps there are a fair proportion of geeks who, having hacked evolution, are not very eager to have their handy-dandy prehensile tails discovered.
This article wasn't even written as a social study, but was fragmented into near unreadability as a result of both the pseudo-code and the lack of flow invoked by the author. The only interesting point was the nod to culture shock and immigration.
This does not keep up with Salon's tradition of doing interesting social commentary. This article was bland and covered issues which people are familiar with from exposure to the canon of geek jokes.
Did Salon really do more than regurgitate the above, backing it up with the knowledge that, gosh gee, a lot of geeks really don't get laid too often?
The best way that this story could have been handled would be to look at the 'new' business and social environment and interaction in Silicon Valley. I know nothing about it, as I work as I work in Ireland -- mix business with pleasure, anyone? I'm curious as to just how people interact, meet each other and what not in an environment that seems insanely pressurised to me, from the congested traffic to the high rent and long hours.
When I'm really engrossed in a project, I know that my social interaction comes with the project team and, occasionally, bystanders, for the most part. Does this occur in Silicon Valley, as well, where friendships and romances arise from convenience? If so, I'm sure the same ramifications exist for work romances, but what's the social view of, say, a millionaire CEO dating his secretary?
For some reason, picturing some programmer millionaire dating his secretary seems much more innocuous to me than his Wall Street equivalent. The perceived innocence of geekdom? Another point they didn't touch on.
That's becoming rather addictive. I think that my next project will be commented in obvious, un-enlightening anecdotes.
Weird Contradiction (Score:1)
Besides, are Libertarians really anti-union? It seems to me that Libertarianism is an assault on the power of government, which in the wrong hands has been used to destroy unions (look at the Air Traffic Controllers). Being pro-government is not the same thing as being pro-union. Libertarianism is strong support for getting the government off of our backs, and the real problem prostitutes are having, according to this article, is government control and interference. In my opinion, this undermines her whole arguement in the article. I would expect the Libertarian party to show strong support for any union who's constitutional rights of free speech or assembly were under assault by agents of the government.
Re:The other side of the fence (Score:1)
And AOL isn't much better. All that adds to the mix is a bunch of 14-year old morons, and 41-year olds with the minds of 14 year olds.
The place where the real geeks hang out is user groups and fan clubs. There are usually single, possibly virgin, 30+ year old males to be found in fan clubs. (User groups tend to also attract the less geeky and more married.) And some of them have even matured mentally once they have gotten over the midlife shock of being terminally single at age 30.
What sort of fan clubs? Well, if she has the slightest interest in anything which could have a local fan club, like Star Trek, Star Wars, Japanese Animation, etc., and she's willing to get a bit caught up in such things, this is the place to be.
IMHO, geeks who want to make a "logical choice of a mate" (to paraphrase Spock's daddy), know to look for someone with common interests. So if she wants a geek, she has to get a bit geeky too. In this case, geeky does not necessarily mean computers.
Oh, and one more thing. If she smokes, that's probably like a -20 karma to a non-smoking geek.
How do I know all this about geeks over 30? Because I are one.
Debugging the code (Score:1)
Also, in:
class girl_with_secret {
public:
char upstanding;
long dresses;
friend bend_over_boy;
private:
char *safeword;
double strap_on;
}
shouldn't strap_on be a long?
other peoples predjudices (Score:1)
because of the way that people percieve users, I don't think I ve ever run into a teenager that's said 'I got into computers to attract women'
having looked at it theres a degree of 'arent we normal and aren't they loosers.' I'm sure that this is the result of journalists not getting enough women.
Re:There are protocols (Score:1)
It's amusing to note how thoroughly sincere you sound in your rejection of sincerity.
Being continually sarcastic and ironic gets boring just as quickly as continual sincerity does. The trick is to figure out when it's appropriate to be sincere and polite, and when it's okay to be a sarcastic SOB. Anything else is just intellectual laziness.
Re:She's missing one simple fact: (Score:2)
Add me to the list of counter-examples.
Kintanon
sex in the valey (Score:2)
In order to provide some background for that statement, let me tell you a little about myself. I'm a "stereotypical" computer programmer. its easier for me to write C than english. I work from the wrong 9-5. I'd rather spend the day (and the night) finishing that new idea than go out for a night on the town.
i am also a transsexual.
I dont flaunt my different nature (i'm sorta like the coder girl next door, only i wasnt born that way). I have sex less often than elizabeth dole, yet I live in fear that the more I stand out in the crowd, the more likely someone who knew me "before" will stand up and identify me, so that all the people who dont understand (and dont want to understand) can brand me a freak.
Today, I felt something i've never truely felt before.
I was given praise, and felt the respect of my peers.
It is a tragedy that that feeling was completely marred by the fear of someone "outing me".
Frankly, its un-nerving to wonder if this kernel patch is gonna do it, wether i should post my ideas to the mailing list, or if i step on the wrong persons toes, are they going to destroy me?
the division of the valey into two classes (the straight people who dont get any, and the BDSM) in this article is an affront to the existance of the trans/lesbian/gay/bi community as a whole.
theres more to life than black and white. theres a whole lot of people who suffer in the grey areas.
(posting as anonymous coward for obvious reasons)
www.transsexual.org-- for those with a more open mind. [transsexual.org]
I am disappointed!! (Score:2)
Maybe the writter felt that any article with few words like 'geeks', 'Silicon Valley' and 'Sex' would command viewership and warrant a Slashdot place. Yup, in a way it has but has laft, I am sure, many many unstaisfied geeks !
BTW if u are looking for 'codes' plse go to some usenet of even Free Software site for better 'codes' !
Re:It's not like no sex is a conscious choice... (Score:2)
Frankly, I don't really want to hear about some girl's job when I'm getting to know here - jobs are, by and large, the most boring thing about any given person.
Lots of people work long hours. My girlfriend is up at 6:15 in the frickin morning, monday through friday. maybe she's not hunched over a CRT at 3:15 in the morning, but I don't get up until 10ish and lemme tell you, being up at 6:15 to go to work is a foreign to me as being at work until after midnight is to her.
Anyone who likes their job can run the risk of become overabsorbed in it. occupational hazard when you have a good job. and if you've ever noticed, people who hate their jobs are by and large a pissed-off, disagreeable bunch (because they're miserable all week.) so I would venture that most well-tempered people who are smiling in a bar at the end of the week are going to like their job and therefore, run the risk of really _really_ liking their job.
Computers aren't that hard to understand. no more so than law is difficult to understand (from a lawyer's point of view) or particle physics is to understand (from a particle physicist's point of view). your logic would suggest that women are more difficult to understand than the average guy's specialty; I would agree with that. following your logic would mean no men understand women. duh.
The maleto female ratio in silicon valley hurts everyone equally. of course, if you're in silicon valley, chances are youre a tech worker, so I suppose this point is the one which most applies to tech workers, even though it applies to everyone in the valley.
so you see, its not hard for geeks to get girls - its equally hard for everyone who has a job, likes is a lot, might work some somewhat unconventional hours, can't understand females, and lives in the valley. except for the valley part, that's everyone I know.
so quit bitching and brush your teeth everyone, and remember: if you don't talk to girls you won't get laid.
Re:Lame article (Score:2)
Re:Not the best of Salon... (Score:3)
Are you americans beware that... (Score:2)
Amercan dating is a whole concept of behaviour, strictly defined and hardly understandable for people from other countries. And its one thing american movies/pop culture didnt inject into other cultures.
I am not talking about dating as a form of flirtation, but of dating as a set of rules. In my country (Germany) theres just no defined approach to the other gender, and its never clear when a date is a "date" and its not common knowledge what to do/think if it is - contrary to the dating rules of what to on the first the second and the third date (as far as it was explained to me)...
"to ask someone out for a date" or "Im dating
It's just the valley (Score:2)
Techy lovers (Score:2)
Programming is process-oriented; the computer *will* (barring hardware malfunction) do the right thing if you give it a set of valid, consistent instructions.
A human partner, however, is not consistent and does not have an on-off switch. Saying the same sentence on two different days can generate vastly different responses from a biological spouse.
Bottom line: Relationships with people require flexibility, empathy, and even some mind-reading. Contrast this with the simple, direct, and usually logical relationship we can have with a computer, and it's clear why technogeeks prefer hardware over wetware.
I'm a classical nerd, and I've been doing computers since the mid-1970's: but I also have a wife of 18 years and three lovely daughters, in addition to my four computers. Whenever I find myself wrapped up in technology, I remember that a computer can't give me a hug, or fix me breakfast, or show me wet school paper with an "A", or leave a hamster in my bed...
...well, maybe I could do without the latter....
- Scott
I think Iliad said it best (Score:3)
We nerds can get chicks........it's all about self confidence. You could be ugly, broke, and bleeding from a massive headwound, as long as you've got balls you can get the girl. Self confidence shines brighter thatn any light saber, just don't confuse it for being brash.
Re:Sex? (Score:3)
Re:Horrible style of article... (Score:2)
It's not just geeks... (Score:2)
This isn't a geek-specific problem. Plenty of men complain that they are "too nice," and as a result, inappropriate lover material. Though this certainly happens, it strikes me as something of a media cliche. It seems like plenty of romantic comedies have this kind of notion at their heart.
As for the reason, I think it's just that the gender roles that have built up over time are still something people look to. Women frequently want men to be "men." My interpretation of the "too nice" line is "too boring." There's a fine line between nice and submissive. She needs to feel that there are things you'll stand your ground on. It's not that women don't appreciate being treated well, it's just that there are other things which are more important to initial attraction.
Re:She's missing one simple fact: (Score:2)
Unfortunately I still had the shy, can't pick up a clue to save his life, persona until midway through college. Now I work all the time (my real job and hobbies would seem disturbingly similar to outsiders) and just don't usually make the effort.
BTW, Vacations at exotic locales are great for getting laid, but don't do much for long-term love-gettin'.
Re:She's missing one simple fact: (Score:2)
For example: once I went 2 days without eating because I never felt hungry enough to bother making/getting anything.
Where I work, it's only when someone else asks "Are you going to lunch?" that we geeks eat at regular intervals. And the availability of an all-you-can-eat cafeteria is the only thing that has kept our weight up.
We also tend to care for our bodies, we know when we're overweight, and we know when we need to bathe. In fact, you may never realize it if saw a geek walking down the street, as they tend to look like everyone else, they just have different skills.
- Life is what you make of it.
Hot new Silicon Valley Upstart... (Score:2)
--Alex
I agree... (Score:2)
Nick
Re:Wife 1.1.01 (Score:2)
Source code available at the Human Genome Projects Genome database [gdb.org]
It's bad here, but not that bad (Score:2)
However, it's not quite as bad as I used to think. When I first moved to SF, 4 years ago, I couldn't even get a date. A year ago, however, something changed...
In college, I would have never gone to a bar that was labeled a "meat market". Now, as a hard working adult, I go to such places and guess what? My friends and I hook up. Am I meeting women I would like to have a relationship with? Certainly! But more often than not I find myself enjoying a lifestyle I never had in college. I have never had to talk a woman into going home with me. Somehow the tables have turned and every woman I've slept with in the last year has been the aggressor. I feel like I'm in Chicago...well, it's not THAT easy, but it has gotten a much better.
When we talk to women about how hard it is to meet people, they complain that guys in SF are either gay (total bs -- SF is more straight than ever), short or not gutsy enough to approach them. Guys complain about how unapproachable and snotty women are. Hm. Common theme buried somewhere in there? People can't do anything about their height and sexual orientation is not an issue in most social settings. However, approachability is the key.
Now, I have to admit, I'm pretty damn good looking
And please use protection...kids will kill your action
the real story is (Score:3)
Re:She's missing one simple fact: (Score:2)
Unfortunately I still had the shy, can't pick up a clue to save his life, persona until midway through college. Now I work all the time (my real job and hobbies would seem disturbingly similar to outsiders) and just don't usually make the effort.
BTW, Vacations at exotic locales are great for getting laid, but don't do much for long-term love-gettin'.
Wrestling and Martial Arts for me, I was never quite big enough for football, though I was invited to be the kicker for my highschool team because the coach saw me do some boardbreaks and stuff... I always prefered slightly less team oriented sports.
Kintanon
Re:Horrible style of article... (Score:3)
> wanting them as friends, not as lovers. This is a real problem,
Relationships can come and go for the oddest of reasons. Friendships require far less maintenance and can also last a lifetime.
As one of the geeks that can't be bothered with the messiness and "analog"ness of sexual relationships (anyone remember that section of Hackers, by Steven Levy, that describes why the TMRCers never bothered with relationships?), I find a "just friends" arrangement ideal for me.
I'm presently rooming with one of my "just friends". We each have our own spaces; she to read and do research for her career, I to geek out and hack on hardware and software. We both work long hours, seeing each other sporadically during the week. Frankly, we're both too involved and interested in our careers to make time for a relationship (with each other or anyone else) and have sufficiently-differing longterm goals that a relationship between us would be silly anyway. If we want to have a bottle of wine and a good steak, however, we'll make some time and go out on the town to enjoy some the finer things in life, and neither of us has to worry about what happens after.
If you ask a woman out (whom you already know as a friend, we're not talking about strangers in a bar here) and she gives you the LJBF line - Let's Just Be Friends - it ain't the end of the world. She just might be sincere about it.
One more benefit of having a "just friend" - when you do get into a relationship with someone, you'll always have someone you can go to when you need a straight answer on something:
(Any similarity between that post and any conversations I've had is purely a coincidence. Honest. Guys, don't bother cleaning the toilet. Really. The Men Of Silicon Valley don't want your women, and none of them paid me $500 too add this paragraph.)
Re:Pseudocode mixed with English is annoying (Score:2)
PAM_ALEXANDER == "A high powered and attractive female leader of a major PR house Alexander Ogilvy [alexanderogilvy.com] that has focused on High Tech and was started I believe in the Bay Area"
SEE ALSO:
#2 in the Upside Top 100 Flacks [upside.com]
Fast Company's April 1998 issue features Alexander Communications [fastcompany.com]
Re:Sex? (Score:2)
If it bothers you so much, maybe you should find a new line of work.
Re:don't mind them :) (Score:2)
Damn, I like doube entendre's, if you know what I mean.. nudge, nudge..
Re:geeks and sex (Score:2)
--Parity
Of course... (Score:2)
I think the point has been made that long hours, high stress, and competitive focus severely limit one's ability to get into the dating pool. I don't think, however, that this is the whole story.
If someone is spending time learning how to code and how to design devices, their time is spent in an entirely foreign focus from non-engineers. Learning the dating 'dance' takes time and effort, and most engineers have already dedicated themselves. The computer engineering field is unique in that computers can truly be reward enough for work done, and can suck 100% of an engineer's focus.
It is very easy for a competitive environment to demand absolute attention, and it is very easy for engineers to dedicate their efforts to this environment.
I work in an engineering position at the world's #1 chipset maker, but early on I made the personal decree that no job was worth never learning, never absorbing, an understanding of how women work and what they want/need.
I can't make a sacrifice that great for anything, but it is not hard to see how some people would do it for engineering.
A very good solution, not 100%, but a good one, is to ensure that engineers always have to work in teams. If your focus is entirely on software or electrical design, you severely lack development of communication skills. In teams where communication is the #1 neccessity, this suffering focus is re-aligned to help engineers keep in touch with a more real, communicative world. Granted, it is not an excellent help, but at least an engineer will learn how to maneuver in social situations.
S.V. tied with Alaska for eligible men (Score:2)
Alaska with highest imbalance of single males
30 - 50.
Re:She's missing one simple fact: (Score:2)
My high-school linebackers coach made this comment at our senior send-off "Roy was the first time I had the oppurtunity to coach a Macintosh computer." I muttered something about windows and laughed appropriately. (this was a number of years ago)
Of all the teams I played on I only knew one other serious geek. I really enjoyed the team aspects of sports, especially since I'm so independant normally. And they did help with the subject of this thread, although not as much as some would think.
Re:Not the best of Salon... (Score:2)
I went to college in Newark, NJ (not far from NYC). There is a large population in the Northeastern US and an exceptionally high concentration in this particular area. I found that you can still be very much alone in the middle of all that humanity, but it's likely that you will run into someone along the line that is interesting enough that you'll want to talk to them. There are so many forums to provide an opportunity to find someone with similar interests.
Schools and work have very little in common. Social interaction at work is suppressed if for no other reason, by the amount of things, everyone is expected to do. Companies specialize in one activity per location, so people are heavily segregated by their activity -- and in the case of EE/CS, gender. There are no organizations or activities, specifically designed to bring people together. So if geeks have their chances at school, it definitely ends with graduation.
Re:Techy lovers (Score:2)
Bullshit. Computers aren't out partners -- they are extensions of us, our tools, our means of expression, out arms, legs, eyes, ears and mouths. But in no case they are partners.
Re:Why aren't you complaining? (Score:2)
As a girlgeek, it frustrates me to see another article where women geeks get such a cursory mention.
If you are a geek (female or otherwise) can you please first describe the problem, then explain how bad it is instead of doing the second without the first? I don't think, any male geek on slashdot (editors included) has a slightest idea, what kind of sex/romance/dating-relared problems do female geeks have in SV.
Re:I never have, minded them. (Score:2)
Damn right. There are a lot of Asians in Britain and in my opinion Indian girls are - on average - much better looking than "white" girls. Plus they're generally better behaved.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
Re:not enough geek girls for the geek guys ? (Score:2)
Well, bullshit. Appearance IS important, and smell, and the sound of your voice. Because human beings are sensual creatures, not disembodied brains floating around.
If you want guys to take notice of you then you have to dress nicely, get your hair seen to etc. -that's just the way things are.
It doesn't really matter that you're not going to win any beuaty contests. What matters to a guy is that you've made the effort, take some pride in your appearance, and most of all that you SMELL and LOOK like a girl.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
Re:Yes, European culture is different (Score:2)
That's rather scary when I consider that I'm moving out to Silicon Valley myself in a couple of months. Eek! Why didn't anybody mention this before?
Oh well, I'm married anyway, so this particular distinction about dating is only theoretical in my case. Still, if there's anything else that's different but not commonly known I'd be grateful if SOMEONE WOULD LET ME KNOW!
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
Re:Will geeks become extinct? (Score:2)
The researchers concluded that this behaviour stems from biological imperatives honed by evolution. The implication is that the "ideal" outcome for a human woman in a natural setting (i.e. pre-civilisation) is for her to get impregnated by a physically superior male thus passing on the best survival genes to her offspring. But, since this type of male is continually in demand with other nubile females, he is unlikely to stick around for the pregnancy let alone the hassle of providing for those offspring. Consequently, women are programmed to seek a more practical partner to help her rear the children, so... the Nerd type gets leftovers.
Nerd-type males who've been lucky enough to hook an attractive girl into a long-term relationship without her first getting impregnated by a Jock will probably think they've beaten the system. Think again. It's not as if one drive switches off forever and the other one kicks in. Your loving S.O. will still be attracted to Jock types, perhaps even in spite of herself.
Just to rub it in, some genetic studies performed a few years ago showed that in the US and the UK, the rate of "cuckoo" pregnancies (those resulting from extramarital sex) was as high as 1 in 10.
It hardly needs to be said that from the Nerd male point of view, this sucks *badly*.
So, what can you do if you don't fancy leftovers and you don't want someone else...er...eating at your table while you're out?
The answer I've adopted in practise is straightforward enough, even obvious: adopt non-Nerd, quasi-Jock protective coloration, both to win your girl and keep her from straying:
(i) Drink lots of beer.
(ii) Drool over other females.
(iii) Do sports. Especially martial arts, to frighten off those bastard Jocks (some of them *are* bastards, they've even got Nerd dads to prove it...)
(iv) Cultivate loud, obnoxious Jock or quasi-Jock friends with whom you can share in the above activities. But don't leave them alone with your girl, even for a minute.
(v) Occasionally treat your girl badly. But not too often.
(vi) Belch and fart; long, often, and with gusto (the beer helps. You can also try pickled onions).
(viii) Touch your privates regularly (I'm not talking about indecent exposure or masturbation, just scratching or rearranging them through your pants, like because they're so huge that they're uncomfortable being cooped up).
In other words, make a point of demonstrating your maleness frequently.
And all the while, keeping those intrinsically lovable Nerd qualities of kindness, thoughtfulness, consideration etc. so you'll still be the perfect long-term partner.
Anyway, that's how I've got away with it so far: I'm a self-made hybrid Nerd-quasi-Jock. It works for me...
If there are any girls reading this and they don't like it...tough! We guys didn't make the rules, we're just doing what we have to. You girls had it coming!
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
Re:Horrible style of article... (Score:2)
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
Re:It's not just geeks... (Score:2)
That's not entirely true. There are a goodly proportion of women who just can't stay interested in a male who's good to them and doesn't mistreat them enough. This isn't geek bitterness talking - none of my partners ever left me for that reason. But I do know of several relationships that broke up for that reason: "he was just too...nice". It seems like "nice" is just about the most deadly insult a woman can hand to a guy.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
What girls really want (Score:2)
Not True - Not True at all.
There is 1 single aspect that is at the deepest center of the female mind - an instinct which has been honed to precise perfection. (either by millions of years of evolutionary development, or by the direct genetic manipulation of superior beings - dependant on you POV).
It is not :
The one thing that drives a woman to select a mate is - Power. Girls reading this will reluctantly agree that this is true, if they are honest about it.
How many women continue to run back into the arms of a total pig of man, who cheats on her, forgets her birthday, insults her mother, etc ? Looking on as men, we cannot understand this, but in a woman's eyes, such men have around them an aura of power that makes the woman always come back 'but I love him' she cries.
What is power and why do women melt at it ? Money is not power, nor are big biceps. Power is about control. You can have a totally rich geek who works out at the Gym 4 nights a week, but whos life is controlled by those around him. He is a yes man, he slinks around with shoulders hunched, and averts his eyes from his 'superiors'. Men cant pick this up, but women see this as weakness - not fit to bear children and provide security for a family. Women outwardly may show more feeling and compassion, but in the deepest heart of a women there is no place for weakness in her partner.
In contrast, you can have someone like al-bundy, useless, flat broke, no feminine side at all - But hey, there is an aura of certainty and security around him. You know that he will always be there for Peggy & the kids, and thats what really counts.
If you want a woman to want you in a more than superficial LJBF way, then dont treat her like your sister, dont treat her like your mother - and dont act like her personal assistant. Act like a bull male lion - approaching a lioness.
Finally, dont fall into the trap of giving her what you want her to give to you ... you are both different, and want different things. Love and Cherish her, and She will return Love and Respect .. subtle but important difference there.
Re:The other side of the fence (Score:2)
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
Re:Throwin' Karma (Score:2)
Heh. Old articles are cool to hang out in. It is where the population is low and the moderators dare not follow.
:)
Re:not enough geek girls for the geek guys ? (Score:2)
Hmm. Scraggly. I like that word!
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction