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NSA Spy Computer Crashes 352

Posted by emmett from the crash-and-burn dept.
Cyberkidd writes "According to CNN, one of the NSA's main spy computers crashed for three days, and has not been completely fixed yet. No details as to the type of computer, but one can only wonder if it was a Microsoft Blue Screen..."
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NSA Spy Computer Crashes More

NSA Spy Computer Crashes

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  • They should have used OS/2! (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    With it's advanced Crash Protection(tm), their applications would never drag down the OS!

    It's the most stable and user-friendly OS there is, and point me to a GUI more powerful and extensible than the WPS!

    And builtin scripting! REXX roxx!

    Go blue: Go OS/2!
    Warpin' baby!

  • I heard it was ruinning (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    MOBILE LINUX!

    /me ducks at the flames hurling towards his head.

    !af

  • Crashes (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    my computer crashed because i poured a bowl of hot grits onto it. then i poured a bowl of hot grits down my pants. thank you.

  • Re:what would they run? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Maybe someone could help me out here, but it seems to me that the NSA would be able to run whatever they wanted, probably something with support for multiple processors, and I wasn't aware of windows being able to support multiple processors well.

    They run a mix -- depending on the application. Best tool for the job type thing.

    They do have some proprietary stuff -- software obviously, but also hardware designed and built from the ground up (starting from raw silicon or germanium, or whatever they use).

  • Biased reporting (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    A rather important computer system crashes and is down for three days, and Slashdot responds with a trite poke at Microsoft.

    Who knows what the system was running? If it was that central and critical a system, isn't it much more likely it was a mainframe, or even a Solaris or IRIX system, than Windows? Was this Slashdot article posted as nothing more than another excuse to belabor the obvious and gripe about Microsoft?

    I'm posting this anonymously to prevent having my karma sunk into a black hole by daring to say something negative about Slashdot, but it had to be said.

  • Surely they can think.... (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    ...of better stunts than this to get funding. Then again, perhaps it's harder to get Congresss' collective ear and purse strings when there has been a marked decrease in the amount of juicy tid-bids they can throw to congress-critters. Maybe it's time to privatize the NSA? (that's a thinly vailed good'ol boyz joke among those who know).
  • More likely they've got a custom built supercomputer runnning a custom OS, to squeeze every last cycle into effiency when running huuuuuge decrypts and other spookish stuff.

    Only if they are stupid. Today is usually is much cheaper to throw additional hardware at a problem than to try to optimize the operating system. For compute-intensive tasks like data analysis and code cracking, I seriously doubt that the operating system even accounts for 5% overhead. Squeezing those 5% out of the code is prohibitively expensive, particularly for one-shot installations.

  • Stop picking on Microsoft!
    Stop being mean to Bill and Steve.
    Stop being so mean to that poor 500 billion dollar corporation!
    WHAAAAAAAAAA
    Bwhaaaaaaaaaa (girgle)
    Waaaaaaaaaaaaaa
    Waaaaaaaaaaaaa (sniff)
    WAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

  • Re:Planned Tactic (Score:3)

    by Effugas ( 2378 ) on Saturday January 29, 2000 @09:37PM (#1323151) Homepage
    If they are dead set against allocating more funds for the NSA, stunts like these won't help them.

    Who said they are dead set? The general theme as it appears to me is that the NSA is looking invincible and more powerful than any other agency in the entire US Government. Remember, we're talking about guys who used attorney-client priveledge against the senate as a stonewalling measure!

    This is to make them seem weaker, less invincible, more fallible...not to anyone overseas, who still can't assume the NSA won't be able to crack something, but locally, so that the won't ever not be able to crack something.

    That's the idea, at least.

    Yours Truly,

    Dan Kaminsky
    DoxPara Research
    http://www.doxpara.com

  • Planned Tactic (Score:5)

    by Effugas ( 2378 ) on Saturday January 29, 2000 @09:24PM (#1323152) Homepage
    The NSA is all about controlled image. Most government agencies are--I've heard some rather interesting stories of military coverups--but the NSA is particularly secretive.

    You don't get referred to as No Such Agency for no reason ;-)

    If the NSA is making this announcement, it's because A) They're making a statement about the difficult situation that export regulations are going to put them in(remember--they're the ones who get the flack when they're given an uncrackable signal) and B) They want more money, or at least their existing funds not to go away. As long as their situation is inadequate, all those "one time upgrade" budget justifications can survive. As soon as they appear in full working order, it's cool to take a few points off the top from them.

    Ah, the machinations of government...

    Yours Truly,

    Dan Kaminsky
    DoxPara Research
    http://www.doxpara.com
  • Sounds as though they need an upgrade. This article [cnn.com] was linked to at the bottom of the page. It seems they are having the same problems as, I'm sure, many companies are. Too much information. A quote from the story, "The largest U.S. spy agency -- the National Security Agency -- is in crisis, overwhelmed by too many targets, too much information and the challenges created by increasingly sophisticated technologies." Somewhat surprising that they would see something like this coming and not take steps to remedy the problem. Or is it?

    ----------------

    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein
  • What about groups of individuals, or at least people who think they're individuals? There are religious and militia 'leaders' who feed these peoples fears that the government is trying to exert too much control on peoples lives. So these people who already have a pretty tenuous grasp on reality get brainwashed into believing: that federal agents in black helicopters are going to heard everybody and execute them; that all of societies ills are the fault of the Jewish|African|Insert-your-prejiduice-here and so on.

    I'm not so worried about the lone nut, I'm worried about the congregation of nuts and the sociopath that controls them.
  • "Those who wish to give up their freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve either."

    But everyone gives up some freedoms to protect others... I believe my high school government teacher referred to it as a "social contract," although it's been several years...

    For example, you surrender your right to purchase chemical weapons so that others (in theory) will not purchase chemical weapons, therefore greatly lessening the threat to your life from chemical weapons (a choppy example, sorry).

    Anyway, giving up some basic freedoms is essential, in order to protect others. While I don't like the prospect of a government "listening in" on me, if I have to give up that freedom to protect my life, it's worth it. Now, we're not to the point today, I doubt, that if the NSA went away, terrorists would begin terrorizing US cities, killing innocent citizens, but, perhaps one day this will be the case, if it's not already...

  • I don't think they have a choice. Sure, almost Everyone at the NSA has some sort of security clearance, but it would be impossible to keep this locked up. If there was such a huge network failure as CNN seems to think, a lot of people simply have nothing to do at work. They go home. Why is everyone going home someone might ask?


    The NSA is good at keeping things secure, but I drought they would keep something this big "lock up". Besides the state of the system is unimportant. What's important is what it is used for. You don't see them talking about that to CNN.

  • You should read something by Solzheneetsen.

    I think you might change your mind about what kind of crazy stuff these governmental nutjobs can do and get people to go along with. (read Stalin, and the Russian people).

  • They have larger Sun boxes as well.

  • NSA Computer Operating System (Score:4)

    by Detritus ( 11846 ) on Saturday January 29, 2000 @09:05PM (#1323159) Homepage
    No details as to the type of computer, but one can only wonder if it was a Microsoft Blue Screen...

    Highly unlikely.

    From unclassified information in the press, the NSA has large numbers of Sun workstations (Solaris) and Cray/SGI supercomputers (Unicos).

  • Consider that "crazy, lone individuals" are usually open about their motivations and directly state what their actions might be. Lone crazies are pretty transparent. Consider that a secretive organization like the NSA isn't transparent. It doesn't state its motivations and its behaviour is difficult to predict and it even lies about its motivation and specifically cultivates public relations to encourage an unrealistic public opinion about its motivations and actions.

    We should also be worried about the secretiveness of coporations. If you want to look for the "bad boys" in governement, turn your eyes towards the Department of Energy too.

  • Note that

    Hitler
    Stalin
    Napoleon

    Were all working under the auspices of modern government, and

    Marx

    advocated revolt, and replacement of current government with the new one. I'm surprised you didn't mention Mao, because Mao's early stuff pretty much followed Marx.

  • Re:NSA lesser of evils? Or the worse? (Score:4)

    by JamesKPolk ( 13313 ) on Saturday January 29, 2000 @09:11PM (#1323162) Homepage
    Which is less fearsome? The power of the individual, or the power of a group?

    I think that history has shown that governments have the power to do far greater harm, than lone nuts.

  • The bigger the group, the harder it is for them to maintain a conspiracy.

    I don't like the way NSA seems to be able to operate without accountability, and I would be shocked and amazed if a large portion of their budget wasn't embezzled. And I would also be shocked and amazed if they weren't doing illegal things against US citizens. However, if they were up to something too hideous, I think it would have leaked. They're so big!

    Dr. Evil's team, on the other hand, is small enough that the people within it can keep a secret. So perhaps there's value in having NSA's electric eye turn toward them, whenever NSA people feel like taking a break from playing Peeping Tom with our day-to-day lives.


    ---

  • While I'm no psychologist, I think that on an 'instinctive' level it's the species that counts. Humans truly are social animals, and often enough the herd mentality shows through. Even in simple ways, such as procreation. Why are people so obsessed with sex? Preserves the species.

    No. We're strongly motivated to procreate because genes that encouraged that behavior are the ones that become more numerous.

    But on an intellectual level, people seem more concerned with themselves. Would you be willing to die to save people you've never met before? And certainly the drive of possesiveness seems to stem form self-preservation.

    Same explanation as above.

    Perhaps it is this mixture of species- and self-preservation that explains why humans as a group are so fscked up.

    Gene selection theory explains it all without any problems, unlike the ones that crop up in species selection and individual selection.

    This might also be the origin of our notions of courage and honor: putting your people above yourself.

    Those notions are taught by cultures, and don't otherwise occur naturally. They're memes.


    ---
  • (It is in big brother's best interest to perpetuate the species)

    True; however, it is not in Big Brother's interest to perpetuate the individual, (ie any one person), especially if said individual is a public opponent.

    There is a saying to the effect that "it is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees" (or whatever; the meaning is clear enough).

    Me, I'm not so sure about the "better dead than slave" bit ("where there's life, there's hope," and all that), but while I am free, I certainly intend to do my best to see that I remain free.

    Tim

  • If the **NSA** for christ's sake, is using **Windows**....then I've lost what little faith I still had in government.



    Bowie J. Poag
    Project Manager, PROPAGANDA For Linux (http://propaganda.themes.org [themes.org])
  • from the activity log of Special Agent Armageddon, 30 January 2000:


    read slashdot postings re "crash". note - slashdot user KristianC. dangerously unstable. good probable cause. keeping an eye on this one. sent cc's to senator hatch and vice president gore. thinks we're assfucking the country. wait'll he feels a *real* assfucking...


    signing off

  • The article states that they "had to reconstruct the entire system" after the crash. That means it probably was a hardware problem rather than a software problem.

    Of course this raises the question of why they weren't using fault-tolerant systems [*cough* VMS cluster or equivalent *cough*] here, unless they ignored some failure signs earlier, and too many parts failed...

  • The article states that they "had to reconstruct the entire system" after the crash. That means it probably was a hardware problem rather than a software problem.

    The truth is is that there is no harware. There is no software. This whole computer crash thing is just to distract us from the real problem: YETIS IN AMERICA!

    Just why do you think this story came out when it did? Because the NSA bribed emmett in a timely fashion. After all, they don't want YETI@Home to develop a follwing, or the truth about Sasquatch (who was the result of failed government testing to develop a 'Super Soldier' during WWII) to be known. So how do they manage this? Simple: Distract people from the true crisises.

    So what should we do, fair /. readers? It's simple: boycott the NSA, install YETI@Home on your difference engine, and FIND THOSE YETIS!

    Remember: The truth is out there(tm)

    ~~~~~~~~~
    auntfloyd

  • No, but single people can certainly incite others to commit horrific deeds which they might not otherwise do, such as Hitler.

    Don't underestimate the individual: it's all you are.

    ~~~~~~~~~
    auntfloyd
  • (The question I should have asked in the beginning: Which is more important. Survival as a species, or survival as a species of individuals, assuming they are mutually exclusive)

    While I'm no psychologist, I think that on an 'instinctive' level it's the species that counts. Humans truly are social animals, and often enough the herd mentality shows through. Even in simple ways, such as procreation. Why are people so obsessed with sex? Preserves the species. This might also be the origin of our notions of courage and honor: putting your people above yourself.

    But on an intellectual level, people seem more concerned with themselves. Would you be willing to die to save people you've never met before? And certainly the drive of possesiveness seems to stem form self-preservation.

    Perhaps it is this mixture of species- and self-preservation that explains why humans as a group are so fscked up.

    Just my .02c

    ~~~~~~~~~
    auntfloyd
  • > Don't underestimate the individual: it's all you are.

    Yes, but I I have just one of em, organisations have lots!
  • cult of the dead cow right?
  • [OFFTOPIC]
    == I believe x.com [x.com] and z.com [z.com] predate the rule disallowing single-letter domains. The other screwups to which you refer were from new registrars and this is with NSI -- so, in any case, it's not part of the same problem.
    == The "record created" date is not necessarily the date the domain was registered - it could be that, on that date, the domain was transfered to a new owner (therefore, a new record).

    ========

  • I figure it was just someones netscape that went wild. :)

    But netscape doesn't usually take machines down with it... but they could have been playing with the latest build of Mozilla!
  • I think that history has shown that governments have the power to do far greater harm, than lone nuts.

    While this is true, it is the governments' interest to keep the general public around, like an earlier post stated about the NSA. Lone nuts, however, are concerned for no one, not even themselves. That is why I worry about the nuts more than the government.

  • Just a bit of fluff that got stuck in my brain sometime in the past. Wouldn't surprise me all that much if I were wrong, but what the hell, I'll go on record and say I think it's so: NSA is part of the DoD.


    Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation

  • Oh, lighten up (Score:3)

    by webster ( 22696 ) on Saturday January 29, 2000 @10:52PM (#1323179)
    The poke at Microsoft was a joke! Nobody seriously thinks that the NSA uses Microsoft products to perform mission critical communication and/or cryptanalysis(sp?) work. And we ALL know that the crash of a Microsoft OS is not a newsworthy event.


    Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation
  • Rob, we need to start a "Window's Whiners" section on Slashdot. Like YRO and AskSlashdot, this would be a separate forum just for the following types of posts:
    • Windows' Worshippers who loathe and detest Linux/*BSD/etc
    • A place to post whines and flames about how the Evil Open Source Empire is picking on poor defenseless Microsoft
    • A place where all the Microsofties with no essential sense of humor (seems to be most of them, if the posts below are any indication) can whine and console each other
    • would also be a good place where they can whine how topic X is NOT "News for Nerds/Stuff That Matters", instead of leaving Slashdot to find a more Windows-friendly forum
    • last but not least, they can pat each other on the back and tell each other this whole "Open Source thing" is just a flash in the pan, which will be over soon
  • I knew I shouldn't have USEnet cross-posted that long dissertation about how to kill the president. Or used so many swear words in it...
  • they probably didn't even use mod_perl
    :)
  • in my country, we call that a parody, not a troll. my regrets go to your lack of sense of humor.
  • haha, hoohoo, hoe boy, what you said just as funny. Somebody help me stop laughing!!!!!

    On a slightly more serious note, I can't believe people still find unoriginal cheap jabs at Microsoft funny anymore. "Hey that guys mentioned something about blue screens! micro$uck$!! hahahaha!!! windo$w$!! n0tice the dollar $ign$!! I'm a comedian too!"

  • Your planet is probably Mars!

    Sorry to find out that you don't like the sense of humor of the Earthlings! tee hee!

    And give us back our Mars Polar Lander, biatch!

  • ...and the moon isn't full. But I beleive that the CNN article was a clearly direct attempt to stir up another Slashdot post. Then once the story hit Slashdot, the operatives under cover in foreign lands beep back *using Slashdot* for their medium of communication using some mind-boggling form code-encryption that appears to us as First Posts and random references to Natalie Portman.

    NSA, CIA, and mere mortals, I'M ON TO YOU!!!

    Muah hah hahahahahah!
  • Great quotes!

    I imagine many slashdot readers and most people who consider themselves libertarians would agree with those quotes.

    So consider this: if you concede that ultimate responsiblity always ends with the individual, then how does one hold people accountable for their actions when encryption technology makes it impossible to determine who is responsible for them?

    We detest the secrecy and lack of accountability of the NSA, but at the same time trumpet the idea that the solution to their tyranny is to emulate them. How do you reconcile that?
  • They keep stuff secret, we get mad at them. They tell us stuff, we get mad at them. Make up your mind!

    --

  • Yeah it is. It crashed while they were trying to brute-force the encryption on Kevin Mitnick's files. :)
  • Your post deserves to be a full story on slashdot.
  • Even the NSA needs to do public relations. You checked their site, didn't you?

  • I don't know why I'm bothering but:

    • Rob didn't say it, Cyberkidd did (notice the quotes...), and emmett posted it. Rob may have some responsibility because he started Slashdot up and coded a lot of the code behind it, but lets not get too crazy.
    • The "jab" at Microsoft was supposed to be funny. You are supposed to say, "Ha ha, like their using Microsoft on a super computer!" It's a joke!
    • Oh and yes, I'm sure Rob knows that there are bigger computers out there than PCs.
  • Do you even know what so-called "national security" IS?
  • Oh wow, you're such a rhetorical genius.

  • they'll get back to you (Score:4)

    by / ( 33804 ) on Saturday January 29, 2000 @09:09PM (#1323196)
    Monday's crash affected "the processing of intelligence, but not the collection of intelligence," according to the spokeswoman.

    Thank you for calling the NSA. All operators are busy, but we value your call and hope you'll stay on the line and we'll get back to you in the order your call was received. Your call may be monitored for quality assurance purposes.

    Sources said the problem occurred because the computer system was overloaded and badly stressed.

    Basically, they forgot to feed the hamsters and the wheels just stopped a-turnin'. It's really sad that the US claims to be the last-remaining and still reigning superpower but can't afford to slap another couple nodes on the NSA's infrastructure. But as we all know, monopolies breed complacency....
  • Did someone smurf the Echelon?
  • The great flaw in your argument, and indeed, everyone in this thread who believes the NSA is "ok", is the amount of damage a lone individual can do versus that a government can do. As paulbd noted, it is small groups of individuals who change the world -- but small groups who control or have access to huge amounts of power and resources.

    The issue here is, can a secretive group of individuals create biological weapons? I don't think so (unless they stole them -- from the government(s)). To create weapons of mass destruction requires millions of dollars of resources and, more than that: scientists. Scientists who, unless they are starving, aren't going to be very likely to agree with your warped ideology. (That, of course, is another issue, but it isn't solved by listening in on people -- it's solved by giving scientists real jobs)

    I agrue that it would be impossible to create, maintain, and use weapons of mass destruction in secret -- and if you did, it'd be a one time use because the second one would be full-blown war. Furthermore, I will agrue that the cost of allowing small groups to _possibly_ conduct terrorism is _much_ lower than the cost of loosing all our privacy.

    The social contract is bullshit, and no modern theorist believes it exists. The state isn't brought together by mutual agreement, it's brought together by POWER. If you disagree, answer me this: when did YOU sign the social contract, or even agree to it? Never. And moreso, even if you agree with, what about me? Why do I have to? What option do I have if I don't? That's right: none.

    But with encryption, the balance of power changes -- away from the state, and towards me and you. Now, we can have secrets. And thank god, because we live in a police state (Seattle, anyone?). Power is the root cause of violence, because without power over another, you cannot harm another. Power is most dangerous when concentrated behind one will. Therefore, by diluting power, we duliute the threat to ourselves.

    If the NSA went away, I would have more freedom, and that is all.
  • UNICOS is a unix like system running on crays. i suspect that the NSAs cray hardware runs it. anyway, the NSA/military basically leave air gaps on their secure hardware. you cant make electrons jump free space and you sure as hell cant hack into a facility with armed guards and 6 foot thick concrete walls with no connection to any public systems.

  • The Truth (Might Be) Out There (Score:5)

    by rjh ( 40933 ) <rjh@sixdemonbag.org> on Sunday January 30, 2000 @03:43AM (#1323201)
    Just a few thoughts on the subject. Feel free to moderate me as (+1, -1, +2, -pi, Moderation As Rambling As The Content Is).

    1. For the last two or three months the NSA has been playing "woe is me". Check out the press they've received recently; most egregiously was a Newsweek article which was very possibly written by the NSA. The NSA knows that the best PR is no PR -- the more people who watch the NSA, the harder it is for them to do their job. If people must watch the NSA, best if they point, laugh and make rude noises to mock them... after all, if the NSA is a laughingstock, nobody will take them seriously, which makes it easier for them to do their job.

    2. Never believe anything the NSA tells you without independent confirmation. If the NSA feels it's in the national security of the United States to lie to you, they'll do so with a straight face and a clear conscience. The NSA says that some computers went down? Great -- big deal, computers go down all the time. "No," the NSA says, "these were important computers." Great -- that happens all the time, too. What, don't you guys have backup systems? A budget larger than every other intelligence agency combined and you can't afford redundant, independent computers for your mission-critical tasks?

    Something in there just doesn't sound right to me.

    3. The ability to process information is now more important than the ability to collect it. The article says that an NSA official downplayed the incident, saying that data was still collected -- it just wasn't processed and it'll have to be looked at later. Sounds like it wasn't too bad after all, right?

    No. It means the NSA was blind, deaf and dumb, and not only that, they will likely forever be blind, deaf and dumb to events that happened during those few days.

    NASA still has data from the Apollo Program which they haven't had the time or resources to look through and catalog yet. The NSA collects orders of magnitude more data than NASA, and unless they've got some incredibly advanced form of storage technology, they simply cannot store data for very long. They do not have the manpower or the resources to look through their backlog; with the scope and prevalence of digital communications today, they're drowning -- they must be drowning -- in a tidal wave of noise searching for the life-preserver of signal. It's a Herculean task.

    ... Add all of the above together and what do you get? I don't know. If I knew, I'd be Bruce Schneier.
  • It was obviously a failed attempt to crack and read the Gig of encycephered files on Kevin Mitnick's computers before the appeals court forces their rightful return to Kevin ;->

  • How is it that 90-odd percent of the comments here _haven't_ been moderated down for irrelevance? I click on a story to read what I assume will be intelligent comments regarding NSA's computer failure and get.. what? a whole lot of people bitching at each other about OS's?? because of an innocuous, mildly amusing, yet obviously ill-advised comment in the story-excerpt.

    grow up, guys.
  • Try this one: NT Terminal Server Stop 0x00000050 (BSOD) when 11 reminders appear simultaneously in Outlook 97/98/2k on one client box. Try to figure that into proper OS design. WTF???? 11 reminders??? Pop-up Windows crashing the OS??!!! MS Tech support admitted the bug and has distributed a fix that supposedly does not work, but we haven't crashed since. That's why NT sucks a big fat _.

    Chris
  • The three days is _very_ odd. There are only two reasons for crashes that long: broken customized hardware, and lack of skilled technical people. Customized hardware should have spares on the shelf.

    A shortage of skilled techs is very likely. The private sector offers much higher pay, and govt job security is only worth so much. So how is the US govt going to fix this?

    Surely not by paying more. They might re-introduce the DRAFT (aka Selective Service) for a "War on Drugs" or a "War on Poverty" or "War on Pollution" or whatever. But they'd take all the technically proficient draftees and use them to service govt departments. Not sensitive areas like the NSA which would be filled by transfering long-term govt employees, but backfilling for them.

    Perhaps a bit paranoid, but the price of freedom is vigilance.

    -- Robert

  • Are they looking for sympathy? (Score:3)

    by redelm ( 54142 ) on Saturday January 29, 2000 @09:00PM (#1323206) Homepage
    This is very odd--Why would the NSA let us know their machines are down, and they can't get them up? Are they trying to lull us into complacency? Disinformation is an important tactic of spyies.

    Now, I recognize the importance of National Security, and the role the NSA plays in it. But frankly, with ECHELON etc, they haven't convinced me that their actions are solely devoted to defending against foreign threats. That is the law, and I think they bend or break it.

    -- Robert


  • Yeah, I've dug myself into a hole on that point. Touche. That wouldn't be a bad idea though. But the word Militia has taken on a rather nasty connotation in the last 5 or so years, so we'd have to call it something else.

    Kristian C.

  • If you're not breaking any laws, and not suspected of such, why should they be reading your email? It's search and seizure of your intellectual posessions without just cause.

    Kristian C.

  • Re:How do we know this? (Score:4)

    by KristianC ( 56284 ) on Saturday January 29, 2000 @11:35PM (#1323209) Homepage
    National Security is rather important, no matter how greedy or crooked the fucks are.

    The NSA randomly monitors all voice and data transmissions, even those of people who have not and never will commit a crime. Like grandmothers. And scoutmasters. And Natalie Portman (moderators, please don't moderate this down because of mentioning her, it's just an example!). Yes, national security is important, and a lot of groups have agents inside this country for less than honorable reasons, but they now treat everyone like a criminal.

    • Our Rights (which we really haven't had in 30 years)
    • Amendment IV
      • The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, [I consider my communications to be my property -- kc] against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
      • Where's the warrant stating my crimes? Why has the NSA intercepted and stored my communications as evidence?
    • Amendment II
      • A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.
      • Since the federal government classifies my copy of PGP as a munition (even with the recent relaxation of export regulations) it is therefore 'Arms' (a synonym of 'munitions') and any attempt to break my encrypted communications is therefore an infringement of my rights given to me by our founding fathers. Sure, Thomas Jefferson et al could not foresee the future, but they laid down the Bill of Rights in plain language to insure the rights of every American citizen for as long as this great country stands.
    I propose the NSA turns it's voice and data scanning to a truly criminal group inside this country.
    • Facts about this relatively (less than 600 total) group as of mid-1999.
      • 29 members of this group have been accused of spousal abuse
      • 7 have been arrested for fraud.
      • 19 have been accused of writing bad checks.
      • 3 have been arrested for assault.
      • 14 have been arrested on drug-related charges.
      • 8 have been arrested for shoplifting.
      • 84 were stopped for drunk driving, but released after they claimed immunity.
    • This group, ladies and gentlemen, is The United States Congress. source: www.firecongress.com [firecongress.com].
    It doesn't matter how crooked our watchdogs are? Bullshit! It matters very much. Most of us born after 1970 have never been able to communicate electronically without a chance of interception. We are one of the most carefully watched societies on the planet, and I don't see that changing. Do you believe that you're best protected when the government treats everyone like a criminal? I don't. And I don't like living in a prison, which is all this country will amount to the farther we travel down this path.

    And no, this is not assfucking our country and you so eloquently put it. Our country is asking us to bend over which is not their right because their power devolves from the people, not the other way around. Put into your vernacular the can only assfuck you if you've given permission, which you seem more than willing to do.

    Kristian C.
    Note to the NSA's computers if you read this: Fuck off.

  • Never before in history has a single person been able to create something that cna (by itself) wipe out entire cities or more.

    I'm referring to chemical (and worse) biological agents.
  • Oh I agree completely!

    If the world were a simpler place, we could have our cake and eat it too..

    But, even if hitler won (yech. blech. yuck), the chances that his regime would let him kill everyone would be slimmer than what a standard nutjob ould do today with modern science.

    Governments act to preserve their own power! They cannot do that if they have noone to support them.

    (The question I should have asked in the beginning: Which is more important. Survival as a species, or survival as a species of individuals, assuming they are mutually exclusive)

  • And yea I meant to (mis)spell it that way =)

  • NSA lesser of evils? Or the worse? (Score:3)

    by grmoc ( 57943 ) on Saturday January 29, 2000 @09:00PM (#1323214)
    I'm of two minds about the NSA and related branches.

    One one hand, I'm afraid of the power they wield.
    On the other hand,I'm afriad of the power that can be wielded by crazy, lone individuals.

    The sad fact is that it is becoming easier and easier to create weapons of mass destruction, and easier and easier to deliver them.

    This is very scary, because some of these things (biological) have the capacity to wipe us out.

    I'm for the perpetuation of our species first and foremost, and as a result I'd rather have big brother than not exist. (It is in big brother's best interest to perpetuate the species)

    So is this good, or is it bad?

    What are you more afraid of? Losing your individual rights, or fearful for our species?

    I, personally, am torn.
  • On the contrary, individuals can do far greater harm, in my opinion.

    The following people instantly come to mind:

    - Hitler
    - Stalin
    - Marx (indirectly)
    - Napoleon
    - Genghis Khan
  • Actually, I've had that happen with NT systems. Get it running doing what you want, don't overload it, and it'll be fine for as long as needed.
  • As opposed to a Linux Bigot such as yourself? I'd rather spend approximately 1 hour building a Windows 2000 Professioanl system, and have it be rock solid and secure out of the box, than spend hours and days building a linux box that STILL doesn't have comparable productivity apps. Then applying all the thousands of fixes and patches, instead of one service pack. Oh, and let's not forget the constant maintenance and tweaking to keep that Linux box at "top performance." I've done both. I regularly do both. If I wanted to spend all my time getting "top performance" rather than getting work done, Linux would definitely be the way to go for everything.

    Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to blaspheme in the holy halls of Slashdot.

  • So does linux. That's what's wrong with the statement.

    Want it all summed up? If you don't change anything in the system, NT and Linux both run effectively forever.

    As for Windows 2000 being more stable... it is. I love this OS. It's got the same bullet-proof feeling Linux has, without the hassle. I haven't rebooted my Windows 2000 box in weeks, and I do a hell of a lot more on it than on my Linux box. I've changed configurations, added and removed software, even changed the mouse. All things that used to require reboots. Without a single problem. I don't even know what a Windows 2000 BSOD looks like. Never seen one.

    For the past year, you Linux zealots have all been laughing and quoting Ghandi. "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." Well, Microsoft has fought back. Damn effectively, too. And you guys are laughing...

  • The way CNN makes it sound is like a HD went down or something, or perhaps a race-condition of some sort or another.
    Someone did raise a good question, why would the NSA admit to something like this? From the article it appears they didn't loose anything, so good for them, but I wonder how 'back-logged' they became.
    I honestly can't think of a reason for them to tell, but if they did, maybe they'll release more info. Something saucy like "Don't use IDE on your servers, SCSI is your friend.." .. =]
  • NSA's mission statement..HAHAAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

    Oh so I as an Australian should feel comfortable with an Organisation that can spy, catalogue and pidgeonhole me for analysis (I am not implying that they have any interest in me, ANT that I am)Why should I respect the NSA, of course Americans are the most important people on Earth, without you we would perish, falling plague to dictator after dictator, blood in the sky, a fiery cross!!!

    Am I paranoid really?? -Why is it that an area the size of one of your states in the US has been ceded to you for intelligence gathering purposes it's called MARALINGA in our very Northern Territory. Should this make me feel happy, that a foreign power is occupying our land protecting me from God know's or who know's what. Or that our own government are sheep that follow you to every war, help you with ECHELON etc... Should I be happy that we get roped into fighting every stupid war you help create by supplying arms to dictator's who use them on their own population, then on YOU or your allies. There would be no IRAQ or IRAN today without your WEAPONS sales... (now I am ranting)

    But reading the MISSION STATEMENT, I don't know didn't read as well as any Aesop's Fable I have read. I think rather they should have employed a better writer something from Marquis De Sade would be more appropriate and probably hold more truth.

    The NSA must be secure in the knowledge that there are Americans like you......

    Personally they can go fuck themselves, and fuck off from MY COUNTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




  • If you were to look at the NSA website, you would see that the NSA is a division of the CIA, with a specific purpose: It handles signals interception and processing. You can conjecture all you'd like about the real things that go on at the NSA, but officially they are for only communications intelligence.

    The rest of the CIA is responsible for many traditional spy activities, eg. sattelite surveillance and inside infiltration. If you need to hear what somebody says on their cellphone, the NSA can hook you up. It'll also give you a printout of all of their e-mail traffic. If you wanted to bug their house, you'd talk to a different department.

    Don't underestimate the wide-ranging knowledge that they intercept, but they're not the whole spy effort.
  • The rest is still valid, though. Just rechecked that little bit; it's indeed independent.
  • >1. And don't believe this "win2k is more stable" stuff they are spreading around.

    NT 5 does seem to be more stable then NT 4. I've been using it for the last year.

    > 2. They said that win95 would be more stable than win3.1, too.

    I remember win3.1 GPF all over the place, so Win95 is more stable.

    > 3. They said that win3.1 would be more stable than win3.0.

    I remember crashing 3.0 more then 3.1


    Of course my Linux box has only crashed twice in the past years. Pretty darn impressive.

    Cheers


    Now if us game developers could just convince management to do a Linux and BeOS port, we'd be in heaven.
  • You do know that the CPUSA *was* used both for funneling money and recruiting agents, in addition to the regular "legal" networks operating under diplomatic cover, and the various fronts used by illegals? That it directly aided the recruitment of agents in the Manhattan Project, various high-level jobs (asst. sec. of the Treasury, a Presidential aide, and so forth), and so forth?

    FWIW, the CIA with the help of a GRU colonel helped screw over the USSR during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Go figure, eh?
  • *shrug*

    I'm not sure about the latter two -- unlike the first two, they didn't have a penchant for genocide or other mass extermination -- and didn't leave behind a doctrine that altered the world, as did Marx. I'd rather put Lenin down, than Marx, for it was Lenin who first implemented it with the extreme degree of ruthlessness and cynicism that became hallmarks of nominally Communist dictatorships.

    Folks like Lee Harvey Oswald, Timothy McVeigh, and the two Columbine shoooters come to mind -- they DIDN'T have the direct support of huge governments or even particularly large movements; they operated either alone or in small cells; they didn't need all that much resources; and their effects were disproportionately large.

    Even the last two, who may strike you as odd choices for that list, had a national impact -- the HCI demagogues and their allies took political advantage of the incident to try to push their agenda, and the firearms industry is a regular punching bag for folks like Mr. Rather. To shock a nation can have repercussions well beyond that of the actual incident. When you figure that a small cell has a much lower chance of detection before an attempt, and is easier to motivate and mobilize rapidly -- then we run into problems.
  • The willingness to be vocal only matters if somebody's listening.

    There are, for instance, plenty of folks who don't like the Gov't. These range widely, however. There are folks who run militias that even *cooperate* with the Feds in manhunts, because they aren't interested in starting a civil war, but who train for partisan warfare if the need arises; there are loners who keep quiet, and then stash away fertilizer and detonaters in their home, and read and re-read the latest pamphlets on the New World Order.

    For every Weatherman or Black Panther (ok, so these examples aren't contemporary...) who may be vocal in promoting civil warfare and insurgency, there may be many other voices who are just as strident, if not more -- but who really wouldn't *do* anything. So how do you tell 'em apart, without listening and occasionally investigating?
  • Erm. Somehow, I think there are a LOT of damn-well-qualified mathematicians, electrical engineers, computer scientists, and so forth that don't have time for this board because they're busy doing research. And the NSA isn't all "hackers"... they do more than try to keep a high uptime and work on security glitches. There's a heck of a lot of theory going on there.
  • *raises an eyebrow*

    Pacific? For the most part, perhaps, but... there are still

    a) foreign intelligence services operating in the US and elsewhere, whose interests do not coincide -- and "allies" generally do spy on each other. Witness the recent reports over France spying on British commercial interests, most likely passing on the industrial espionage to its own companies, for instance. Admittedly, those two have fought a number of wars, but they're *nominally* friendly now.

    b) extremist groups of all types here -- from small-time groups like radical eco-terrorists who'll likely do no more than arson, B&E, trespass and the occasional attempted murder; to "religious" fundies who ignore prohibits about bloodshed, and decide to express their viewpoints through home-made bombs; and so forth. There are quite a few people with violent tendencies and a serious grudge against the Gov't, heretics, or whatever other group you care to name.

    c) Some of their monitoring probably deals with overseas investigations -- people over here connected with folks over there. If, say, a drug kingpin in Miami went looking to obtain Russian surplus military hardware from a underpaid, rather disgruntled general, the NSA could be handy. Or if somebody realized he could be making quite a lot of money selling US-made automatic rifles over to the British underground...
  • How can they do this?

    Shady NSA-type: "Here are the logs of encrypted material we can't decrypt (lawfully). We hope you British intelligence types can benefit from our wiretapping."

    Shady British Intelligence-type: "Why, thank you! For no connected reason, here is a copy of our wiretapping data. If you find anything, let us know, k?"

    Shady NSA-type: "No problem. Friends are as friends do. Aww, you look like you need a good back scratch turn around.. When I'm done, scratch my back."

    Shady British Intelligence-type: "Sure. I love these Echelon backscratchers."

    All the governments of the world are starting to work together to stop real privacy.. Sigh

    ---

  • NSA (Score:3)

    by technos ( 73414 ) on Saturday January 29, 2000 @09:00PM (#1323231) Homepage Journal
    I don't want to hear any of that anti-MS flaming! Why? The NSA probably doesn't use MS for something as mission critical as intelligence processing. If Joey S. Hacker can tell that MS products aren't good enough, don't you think the professional hacks at the NSA know it too? Second, something that is expected to handle real-time amounts of sigint That's the realm of IRIX, MCOS, etc, NOT MS. Microsoft gets enough bad press on it's own merits.

  • Re:NSA hackers vs. Us (Score:3)

    by Cplus ( 79286 ) on Saturday January 29, 2000 @11:05PM (#1323234) Homepage Journal
    Just a thought, but wouldn't it be amazing to see the combined powers of /. secure a box. I'm sure there would be a huge amount of argument about what's to be done, but that's why I love slashdot.

    It would also provide a larger analogy for the security of linux if we could show exactly how the box was secured and then challenge people to break in. I know that I would benefit hugely from seeing how it would be done and it would give a lot of people a chance to flex their skills.

  • Maybe someone could help me out here, but it seems to me that the NSA would be able to run whatever they wanted, probably something with support for multiple processors, and I wasn't aware of windows being able to support multiple processors well. I just thought the NSA would be able to at least come up with some native OS that only they would use since they are so secretive, and they have so many bright people.
  • At Bletchley Park [bletchleypark.org.uk] they used to have this wonderful card index system. The only problem was that the table legs used to give out on account of the weight.
  • I can. There are apps like PCAnywhere and VNM (the latter being free) which enables remote use of the computer.

    BTW, why do we have to have Windows bashing in the article SUMMARIES on the FRONT PAGE? Don't journalists honor the values of letting the READERS make their OWN judgments anymore? Grow the fsck up. Linux is an O/S, not a lifestyle. (emacs, on the other hand, does appear to be a lifestyle.)

    Seriously, proposing that Windows is somehow to blame for a supercomputer crashing is childish. Guess what, folks: NO ONE CARES WHETHER YOU HATE BILL GATES. It ranks right up there with pepole who make homepages that say "HI !!! I AM 8 AND I HAVE A HAMSTER AND MY FAVORITE COLOR IS ORANGE".

  • This is news? (Score:3)

    by Crixus ( 97721 ) on Saturday January 29, 2000 @09:37PM (#1323253)
    A computer crashes and it's news?

    I could understand if it were the computer the made the universe work, but this strikes me as not news worthy.

    It was more likely reported to win the bet that all of the major news networks have with one another about who can stretch Y2K reporting as late in the year as possible.

    I submitted a great article about the genetic engineering of foods, and it gets rejected, and then they pick a story about a BSOD.

    Oh god my head hurts.

  • What is the definition of FUD?

    Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

    It is used in the context of the deliberate spreading of rumours (possibly lies) in order to create confusion and uncertainty about a new and untested product, platform, idea or business. This is done with the intention of preventing the uptake of said FUD target through two means:

    a) The uninformed masses may regard the FUD as true. They therefore quite naturally avoid taking any risks.

    b) The informed few, even though they may see through the FUD, realise that the FUD target will be unpopular and unsuccessful because of the general misinformation and hence decide to cut their losses and avoid it themselves.

    Now I'm sorry to be a pedant, but FUD is clearly a tactic that only be used against a new, unproven technology or a newcomer to the market. Hence Microsoft may be able to spread FUD about Linux.

    The reverse is not true. There is no way in hell that Linux Zealots could convince the world that Microsoft products are unfeasible, unpopular or unusable. Trying to use FUD tactics against microsoft is like trying to stop an elephant with a water pistol.

    What Microsoft-bashing you may observe on Slashdot may be pointless abuse, but simply by definition it cannot be regarded as FUD. I dissaprove of mindless Microsoft-bashing as much as the next guy, but we should all recognise that FUD is a completely different phenomenon entirely.
  • Whenever articles about the big, bad NSA pop up on ./ everyone suddenly becomes a HERO OF DEMOCRACY. Yeah. Everyone here realizes that the same constitution that they so happily enjoy quoting also allows them to get off their fat asses and run for office to change things "for the better." If people here are so right and all of the people , like me for instance, in the world are wrong then why don't you do something useful about it instead of bitch and complain about such useless shit as "echelon." With more and more nuclear capable countries coming up in this new millenium do you really think the NSA or CIA or whoever really gives a half ass shit about anybody on ./? No. And for your information the FBI is the one who works with militia groups, not the NSA. The NSA is military, not civilian and they do not carry out domestic duties unless there is a military reason to do so. And all of this FUD about the NSA, as so many people enjoy calling it, is simply humorous to read. And, no, the NSA does not hire people from this group to work there. Get a fucking clue people. I am senior in Mathematics and I applied to work at the NSA spring 99 semester. They are very serious. They don't give a fuck about people like you. I was asked POINT BLANK under a lie detector whether I ever had anti-government thoughts or tendencies or if I was ever part of a militia or militant group. And of course I said NO. I am an American and I believe in what my country stands for and what it does to protect itself from enemies foreign and domestic. Some of the people on this website should make any American sick to his stomach. You don't like it, vote.

  • I'm frankly surprised we heard about this at all, considering how tight-lipped the NSA is. An admission that a depended-on computer has crashed -- and even more surprising, an admission for how long it's been down!

    On the other hand, this admission tells me that they think that the glitch is internal. That is, they are not worried about providing confirmation that an outside attack has worked. (Or, conversely, there -was- an attack, and they think they know how to trap whoever did it and so want to goad them into trying again) Isn't it fun analyzing press releases?

  • I think it was Margaret Mead who said:
    Never let it be said that small numbers of people cannot change the world. Indeed, they are the the only thing that ever has.
    So, I don't know whether "the government" or "lone nuts" are more powerful or not.
  • "Prof., as I see, there are no circumstances under which State is justified in placing its welfare ahead of mine."

    "May I ask this ? Under which circumstances is it moral for a group to do that which is not moral for a member of that group to do alone ?"

    "But I believe in capital punishment under some circumstances ... with this difference. I would not ask a court; I would try, condemn, execute sentence myself, and accept full responsibility."

    "A rational anarchist believes that concepts such as 'state' and 'society' and 'government' have no existence save as physically exemplified in the acts of self-responsible individuals. He believes that it is impossible to shift blame, share blame, distribute blame ... as blame, guilt and responsibility are matters taking place inside human beings and nowhere else."

    "My point is that some person is responsible. Always. If H-bombs exist - and they do - some person controls them. In terms of morals there is no such thing as 'state'. Just men. Individuals. Each responsible for his own acts."

    "But I will accept any rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; If I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am responsible for everything I do."

    "What I fear most are affirmative actions of sober and well intentioned men, granting the government power to do something that appears to need doing."

    "The power to tax, once conceded, has no limits; it contains until it destroys."

    Robert A. Heinlein


  • Isn't is possible that the NSA is using the media to spread a false rumour about a crashed system to lure hackers into attempting attacks on other NSA systems?

    They might be hoping that hackers will think that because one system went down, the rest are weakened as a result, and it should be easy for them to be taken down.

    While a bunch of hackers are trying to attack a computer system that is really fully operational, the NSA is monitoring the types of attacks that are being mounted, and where they are originating from. This way they get useful data to make their computers even more secure, and as a bonus, they also get leads on a few more elite hackers. (That's assuming that only the elite would get far enough as to attacking an NSA computer :)

    -Markus


    Rainy days and automatic weapons always get me down.
  • "Those who wish to give up their freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve either."
    -Ben Franklin

    (if it's verbatim, then my memory's better than I thought!)
  • Umm...Might be going out on a limb here, but aren't WE the "professional" hackers that the NSA recruits from and such? I mean, wouldn't it make sense that anyone nerdy enough to get hired on as an NSA nerd/hacker would HAVE TO be nerdy enough to be registered here at /.???!!!??? Just a thought.
  • As a member of the NSA, I shouldn't have done that regular expression grep on "Natalie".

    Hey, we employ more nerds than any organization on the planet! Cut us some slack!

  • Of course this means. :) (Score:4)

    by Rodney L Caston ( 143815 ) on Saturday January 29, 2000 @08:54PM (#1323292) Homepage
    That single perl script they are running to parse all the world's email for words like "BOMB" and "ENCRYPTION" must of finally choked from our Echelon protest last month ;)

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