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35,765 Internet Votes Cast by Arizona Democrats 177

tgw writes, "According to the stats page of Election.com, 35,765 people cast votes remotely in what the Arizona Democrats believe to be the first legally binding public election in the world conducted via the Internet. This number is almost triple the 12,800 people which voted in Arizona's 1996 Democratic Primary. For those unable to view the stats page a screenshot of it is available here. 'Remote Voting' in the Arizona Democratic Primary was allowed via any Internet-connected computer from Tuesday (3/7) through midnight on Friday (3/10). The election concludes on Saturday (3/11) when people can cast votes only from the 124 designated polling places - using either a computer or paper ballot to cast their vote."
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35,765 Internet Votes Cast by Arizona Democrats

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  • by Anonymous Coward
    Thanks for the info. You answered a few question that I had. I have another one. Are there any restrictions, forced or self-imposed, on who can write code for the election program? For instance, does one have to be an American citizen to participate in the coding effort?

    I raise this point because of the recent case of a State Department program being writen by Russians. Additionally, Yahoo just ran an article about the Aum Shinri Kyo sect wrote some software for the Japanese police. Apparently, this allowed the sect to track some of police vehicles. [yahoo.com]

    Who did the state of Arizona used to go over the code? Craw, sans cookie

  • by Anonymous Coward
    The whole idea of secret voting (while you stand behind the curtain) is to make sure that your nobody is supervising what you vote: it makes no sense to pay 100 people to vote a certain way if you are not allowed to supervise them while they are inside the booth. Therefore, with electronic voting, I imagine, that during the next election I can sell my vote and the buyer will be able to check if I did vote as promised. Lots of other people could sell their votes as a group too, nobody can check that my vote was bought, if I needed the $10 dollars I could have sold it. Others might also sell them even cheaper.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 11, 2000 @01:54PM (#1209139)
    I live in Arizona. A friend came by with his voting info and we punched in the URL. He accepted the disclaimer. He entered his PIN. He entered his BIRTHDAY. He clicked 'yes, this is who I am'. He waited for the next page to load. I did not see if any of these pages were sent using SSL. The problem was, the last page, the VOTING page used a JAVA applet (I viewed source) that would not load on my Win 98 system using IE or Netscape. I wonder if I were the only one who had this problem. Quite honestly, I don't see WHY they felt the need to use a JAVA applet for this.

    Please, don't tell me I needed to run Linux. (I do, but my Linux box was down this week.) My point is simply that if I had problems under Win98 with the voting page's JAVA applet, (Using 2 different browsers) than there are probably more people who did, too. That makes it a poor implementation in my book.

    Why aren't people discussing the how?

  • The College of Arts and Sciences at University of Rochester has been doing their student elections for at least two years online. Maybe it isn't cool enough tho' because they do it through the UNIX shell accounts every student is given. That takes care of the authentication well enough.

    I'm sure they weren't the first either.
  • Blah, my 14-year-old car literally gasped, wheezed and died on Election Day. I did not get to the polling place.

    The current system is biased against the car-less.

    But a borgo-centric election backend? Election returns in PowerPoint-digested-to-HTML?

    George Orwell is behind this, I tell ya!
  • Jesus H. Christ, the thing is based on NT.

    The clue level is down there at the freezing point of Helium.

    No way would I cast a binding vote on an NT shitbox. (yeah, it's secure)
  • Yes, more people vote if it takes less effort. No great shock there, but are the votes of those people that are not prepared to make any effort worth counting?
  • I was going to put this in but since somebody already did, let me add my two bits.

    I often manage polls, and we have very specific rules to make sure that we get an uncoerced vote. That polling booth with the curtain by itself is not enough to guarantee that the voter is not being pressured to vote a certain way. It's the polling booth, with the curtain, surrounded by a supervised open space in a polling place open to the public where all can see, the voter is in there alone, and there is absolutely no way to tell what was marked on that particular ballot. Ballots are serialized, and voters sign in after verification of identity, but there is absolutely no way to connect a particular ballot with a particular voter.

    Voters who require assistance may choose an assistant to go with them, but a poll manager goes also to ensure that the voter is not being coerced. And if you are a candidate or organization interested in the way the election is being run, you can come or send a representative to observe the polling places, to make sure everything is fair.

    There are methods for dealing with irregularities in public challenge hearings. There are rules about campaigning in and around the polling places. Candidates may greet folks waiting in the line, but they can't pass out campaign literature there. Law officers are allowed in only to vote, otherwise they cannot enter unless a poll manager calls them in.

    On the whole, I suspect that much of the enthusiasm about internet voting would evaporate if those who favor it could experience the joys of machine politics, which these rules, workable only in "meatspace", are designed to prevent.


  • Dummy, go to your browser's options and set java applets' security to 'lower'.


    That doesn't sound like a very smart thing to do. Not to mention that it's not something the average Win98 user will think to do.

  • by N8F8 ( 4562 ) on Saturday March 11, 2000 @06:30PM (#1209146)

    My friend and I have actually had several debates about the impact of these types of changes to the election process. Despite what many Americans believe the type of government that we have is not a Democracy it is a Representative Democracy. And given that fewer than 25% of potential voters vote in any given election or referendum then we really have a Representative Democracy controlled by a small minority of the population. Of the people that vote some vote because they enjoy participating in the process. Others, perhaps the majority tend to be people who has a specific interest is how a vote turns out. The level of participation is directly influenced by how a given vote will directly impact their lives, beliefs or livelihood.

    The recent Presidential Primaries are a prime example. The level of turnout has been extraordinary. For the left there is the fear of a House, Senate and President all being controlled by Republicans. From the right there is the fear both of electing a candidate incapable of defeating Gore and of another four years of immoral Presidential antics

    It all really started with the Motor Voter push. A process where someone can register to vote by simply filling in a little extra on the Driver's license renewal to be registered to vote. Before this the task or registering to vote was inconvenient. Often requiring the person to take time off from work to go register.

    Republicans were afraid of the Motor Voter because it threatened to dramatically change the demographic of voters. Republicans tend to be Middle to upper income people with two ore more years of college. Democrats ten to be hourly workers with lower income and less education. The fear was that making the process more convenient would push the demographic further to the left. Fortunately for Republicans the actual act of voting was still inconvenient.

    Online voting is the next obvious improvement to increasing voter participation. People could either go to the local library of log on from home to vote. The implications are obvious. Thus making the process even more convenient, will the demographic be pushed to the left as predicted? Even more importantly, do we want something more akin to a true Democracy where a majority of the population can conveniently participate?

    The first question is really interesting. Though the results from Arizona won't be known for a few more days I'll go ahead and make some predictions. Despite the increased convenience, computers are still a relative luxury. Computers require a certain amount of education to understand and use. Despite the number of computers in use the number of users computer savvy enough to make it through the voting process is much smaller. Many users simply use their net connection to send and receive e-mail. AOL users will have to jump through several hoops and know what too look for to find the browser. It seems to boil down that any vote conducted on the web may actually skew to the right. Polls during the Clinton Impeachment seem to back this up. MSNBC polls often skewed so far to the right you would have thought Clinton would be standing on the corner with a little tin cup asking for donations. A further prediction is that Republican States will be the first to implement Online voting. Its a win-win scenario. They get a better Republican turnout and little fight from Democrats since they would look extremely hypocritical in light of how they beat Republicans over the head with Motor Voter.

    The second question is a real head scratcher. On one hand you have the normal curve tendency. Online voters may have little impact on how votes turn out since simply scaling up the same general voting turnout may not change to actual vote results. On the other hand voting may tend to skew more and more to the right because the haves (wealthy, educated Republicans) will be more likely to vote than the have-nots. This imbalance in the power distribution will likely create interesting results.

    Assuming the first scenario is true, and in the long run as computers become as inexpensive and accessible as toasters its is likely to become so, the next question is how votes change due to increased access to knowledge. This online format allows for more at-hand information about possible candidates as well as voting referendums. Since the wording of proposals will become more high profile, the mishmash of convoluted wording that passes for a proposal today will have to change. Having to vote yes to say no to a ballot will become an embarrassment for the people who write them. Voters will have access to actual voting statistics on candidates and much of the obfuscation and outright deceit in today's politics may not survive the bright light.

    Last, what does this mean for the future of politics? It's not unforeseeable that sometime in the future the representative democracy may disappear. The hidden assumption is that we need this form of government because the sheer numbers of decisions involved and the amount of information needed to make these decisions are too time consuming for each individual voter. Representatives are elected to act as surrogates to make these decisions for us. In the future though this may not remain true. First, we all understand that many of the decisions currently made especially in the State and Federal government are made at the party level. Second, if even a steady 10% of voters can keep up with voting on these decisions online it may become feasible to get rid of most Representative functions. There will be the fear of knee-jerk politics, but that wouldn't really be much of a change anyhow.

  • Internet voting is great, but it will be a long, long time before every state institutes this, and even longer before you see it in a general election. Arizona is pretty much a conservative stronghold - this is the state of Goldwater, and now McCain, not to mention a Republican governor (Hull), and Republican majorities in both the State House and the State senate. Internet users tend to be white, affluent, and male. Republican voters tend to be white, affluent, and male. It doesn't take a genious to see what is going on here - Republicans in power in the Arizona state government saw this as a way to get more votes, and they went for it. People laud this as cutting edge and democratic, but I see it as the exact opposite: a byzantine regression back to the days of boss politics and smoke-filled rooms. Arizona is already the most gerrymandered state in the union, and I'm not suprised that they effectively went ahead and used the same tactics in cyberspace. Dare I say, 'egerrymandering'? :)

    Republican stronghold states - most of the bible belt - will probably follow suit within a matter of years, but in states without a pronounced Republican majority this innovation is going to take a lot longer, at least until there is parity between minority and white Internet usage, not to mention between genders. This, also, will takes decades, perhaps.

    --
  • Uncle Sam had nothing to do with it. The Democratic Party paid Election.com to provide online voting services.
  • I've been voting absentee ballot for years. This is no different.

    Boss tells all employees to vote by absentee ballot. Boss tells all employees to vote from work. No diff.

    The magic ballot number and the address can be tied together when the absentee ballots are mailed out. The PIN number and votes can be tied together. Net voting would be somewhat easier, but both are possible. I dare say the net voting tie would be easier to discover since it all happens in one place. Absentee ballot tieing could be easily limited to just a few, which would be harder to discover.

    --
  • Honor of the first internet election -- that too a significant election -- election for head of state goes to...Costa Rica I think the year was 1997-98 I could find one link link1 [cmcnyls.edu] -ak
  • Just curious --

    Was this via the web or using a proprietary telnet/tn3270/etc connection?
  • by sinator ( 7980 ) on Saturday March 11, 2000 @03:15PM (#1209152)

    This may sound like a shameless plug but at least it's on topic ;-)

    I am one of the programmers for The College of William and Mary [wm.edu]'s student community, The Student Information Network. [wm.edu] We've been providing essential student services for over two years (log in as 'guest' and check it out), and we're entirely student run.

    Which means, of course, when the time came to run the student elections online, everyone was worried that apathy and ballot stuffing would come to the fore. On February 29, 2000, the entire student body had the chance to vote from any web browser. Needless to say, we had a lot of sleepless nights ;-) but we managed to pull off a fair election.

    The results were spectacular!

    • So here were the results
    • To those who said that voting online was more inconvenient than voting at a dining hall (we set up computer stations at dining halls, and public access computer labs could be used for voting as well) -- we had a 43% voter turnout.
    • To those who feared ballot stuffing -- We monitored the logs at all times and maintained many many backups of our PGP encrypted database. It was a fair election.

    It may be noted humorously that, as befits most college elections, a lot of people ran for positions unopposed -- why fear ballot stuffing then ;-)

    In conclusion, not only am I showing that online elections are doable, but that they are a pleasure to do. If I'm not mistaken, that makes us the first university to have full, binding student body elections entirely online in the nation. Can someone show a date of such an election earlier than Feb 29, 2000 in case we are wrong? I'm curious.

    We now return you to your regularly scheduled grits.

  • Well, you know what they say. "Vote early, vote often."

    Wave of the future: corner kiosks for up to the minute updates on legislation, so finally every individual can keep constant tabs on what laws they may or may not be breaking.

  • To a certain degree, I see your point. However, I would like to make a couple of opposite points:

    Right now, it's very possible for about 5-10% of the population to block/pass (depending on the issue) a certain proposition. This is ludicrous. It makes it possible for a small minority of people to hold the entire populance hostage. I know, this is not supposed to be possible , but given low voter turnout, it very much is. This is no longer a problem for mandatory voting. In that case, you need a minimum of 51% of the vote to get something passed or blocked.

    Now, this could be bad, too, given that maybe it's pretty close (say 45/55 split). For voter referendums, I would suggest requring a supermajority (66% or 2/3 of votes). In general, you should not be putting alot of legislative agendas on the ballot - that's what you have elected representatives. Referendums should be reserved for broad policy votes (Will we allow personal pets? and not Are cats allowed?)

    Also, in my opinion, people who vote primarily (or solely) on a single-issue are very bad for the system as a whole. You do NOT want a system where all delegates have a single agenda, and are inflexible on that agenda. This leads to gridlock, animosity, and generally very bad government. While it may be possible for single-issue voters to swing a close election, in general, with mandatory voting, single-issue voters (who tend to be a small, but well motivated, percentage) cannot dictate the outcome of the election. They can right now, and that's bad.

    The difference right now is that democracies are Representative Democracies, not Direct Democracies. When we get to the point where people can easily vote on all issues, then we can have this discussion over again about mandatory/voluntary voting. But in a representative democracy, very few individual "issue" referendums should be put to a vote. In reality, I'm for NO referendums, and let the representatives do everything. That way, you can kick them out and put in a new bunch to change stuff much easier than trying to get rid of old, bad referendums.

    -Erik

  • by trims ( 10010 ) on Saturday March 11, 2000 @05:44PM (#1209155) Homepage

    I've got my handy copy of Applied Crypto around here, and looked up the section on voting. I would like a bit more information about the actual mechanics of the AZ vote before I would say it's a step in the right direction.

    Requirements for Electronic (Internet) Voting, such that the vote would meet normal US voting standards:

    1. Authenticity: the voter must be able to prove his/her identity with a very low chance of either being mistaken for someone else, or using a false identity.
    2. Anonymity: Any vote that a person makes must not be able to be traced back to a specific person.
    3. Verifiability: Any vote must be able to be verified that it came from an authenticated person. However, as per the previous requirement, it should not be able to prove that a specific vote came from a specific person.
    4. Security: The voting system must defeat attempts to ballot stuff (attempts by a single voter to vote more than once) and for ballot forgery (attempts by the vote-collecting/counting authority to manufacture/alter votes)

    According to Applied Crypto, these are very hard to accomplish. Alot of the problems are centered around where you place trust in the voting system. In ther AZ election, I saw misplaced trust (ie, potential violations of the above principles) in three places:

    1. Verification wasn't strong enough. Given their "voter authentication system", I'm note really sure that I would trust it's ability to insure identity. It looked rather primitive.
    2. The voting process wasn't secure. What form of encryption was used to insure that the transmission of the vote was secure? SSL? (I didn't see it.) Even beyond that, what measures were taken to securely store the votes?
    3. Vote tallying was in the hands of a private company. While this in and of itself isn't a condemnation of the system, did the company have to meet legal requirements on accountability? Was there anything about how it was to be provably insured that the vote was correct? Etc...

    While interesting as a first step, I think that this was a good example of exactly how far we have to go before Internet voting can become real.

    Nice Try, but Not Quite.

    -Erik

  • by trims ( 10010 ) on Saturday March 11, 2000 @06:21PM (#1209156) Homepage

    Unfortunately, in the US, the number of citizen that are eligible to vote which actually do is very low. Last I looked, for a nationwide campaign like the Presidency, about 15% of all eligible voters would vote come Nov 2000. Now, that's about 40% of all registered voters (since not everyone who is eligible actually registers). I've read that there is a similar situation in many other "western" democracies that don't have mandatory voting laws (yes, some countries are much better, but not many). Complacency in the system is a nasty disease that hurts a country.

    A big argument (which you will see in previous posts) is that people who cannot be bothered to participate in their own future by voting should not be accomodates, and indeed, would be harmful if they were accomodated by a universal voting law. A similar argument is that if we force uneducated (about the candidates/issues, that is) voters to vote, then the system will be skewed towards unhealthy trends (ie, those with a high profile/large PR campaign/demogogues), since those uneducated voters will be unable to make meaningful decisions on complex issues.

    I'd like to put out my views on this, and as how Internet/Electronic Voting might help solve some of our voter turnout problem...

    • Voting should be compulsatory. Alot of people argue that by making voting mandatory, you remove the right of people to opt out of the system. Unfortunately, this really doesn't make rational sense. A more rational proposal would be an enforcable "None of the Above" vote (that is, if "None of the Above" would win a specific election, all candidates would lose, and be prohibited from running for that office on the subsequent re-vote). Citizen really need to participate in their government, for it to be a democracy. Only through direct participation can the benefits of a "true" democracy be available - otherwise, you end up with a "limited" democracy by default (the ancient Roman Republic was such a limited democracy). In a society of universal citizenship and universal rights, a limited democracy is an unsound fit.
    • Voting isn't just a right, it's a Civic Duty. While being a citizen grants you certain rights (in the US, everything enumerated by the Constitution (and other stuff)), you are also required to perform certain duties for that priviledge of citizenship. In many Western democracies, military service is required for all citizens (in the US, we have the Selective Service). Jury duty is another civic responsibility. Without mandatory participation in these civic duties, the system as a whole suffers, and thus, there are penalties for those who shirk their civic duties. My argument is that voting is no different - everyone should participate for the good of the whole, and there should be penalties against those who refuse to pull their own weight.
    • Universal voting does not mean rule-of-the-uneducated (voter). I love it when people somehow suggest that the average active voter is somehow more educated than the non-active voter. And I'm not talking about formal education or even intelligence here. Systems where only "interested" voters vote are heavily subject to what I call "issue stacking". That is, if a certain small minority of people are motivated to vote, they can dictate policy to the entire group. We see this in US politics all the time - you get high participation by certain special interest group (high participation driven primarily though targeted money spent in PR) that will skew the vote. With everyone voting, it is much harder to stack the vote through a small core constituency.

      Also, the relative education (voting-wise) of a person has alot to do with the ease of access to solid information. If large amounts of both summary and detailed position information is available in an easy-to-access format (see, the Web!), then voter education is much higher. Granted, there will be a considerable number of people who do not read this information, and are swayed by PR, but if managed properly, this percentage should not be a majority (or even a large minority).

    • Internet Voting doesn't discriminate. What people seem to forget is that electronic-only voting is (and probably won't be for a very, very, very long time) not the only method of voting. Sure, by allowing Internet Voting, the people who vote online may be more wealthy/educated/whatever than a "typical" voter, byt all those "typical voters" can still vote traditionally. Alot of this is tied into voter turnout. With mandatory voting, there will not be any issues here - since everyone has to vote, how they vote is immaterial (as long as it is secure/verified/et al.) We should be doing everything to make voting easier for everyone. Knocking a voting method because it caters more to a certain percentage of people is stupid.

    Oops, this is getting long. Conter-arguments, anyone?

    ;-)

    -Erik

  • Don't you normally have numbered sheets where you have to put your vote on? That would be exactly the same. But there are laws which forbid to cross-reference them to get personal voting data.

    Where I used to live, they used paper ballots with serial numbers. The serial number was written in your voter registration records. The part of the ballot with the serial number was detached before the ballot was put in the ballot box.

  • Systems where only "interested" voters vote are heavily subject to what I call "issue stacking". That is, if a certain small minority of people are motivated to vote, they can dictate policy to the entire group.

    That's not a bug, it's a feature.

    If 60% of the population is weakly in favor of X and 30% of the population is strongly opposed to X, does the passage of X serve the public interest? The current system increases the influence of those who are motivated enough about an issue to get up off their ass and vote.

    The NRA is a good example of this. Even though gun control may be popular is some opinion polls, depending on how the questions are worded, the NRA has millions of members who feel very strongly about the issue. There are more than a few ex-Senators and ex-Representatives who lost their seats due to their support for gun control. The gun control advocacy groups are much smaller, raise less money and are heavily dependent on a small group of wealthy supporters. Supporters of gun control are much less likely than gun control opponents to base their decision on whether or not to vote for a candidate on the candidate's position on gun control. This is natural. If there was a ballot referendum to exterminate all cats, there would be a lot of upset cat owners showing up at the polling places, ready to lynch any candidate who endorsed cat control.

  • by Detritus ( 11846 ) on Saturday March 11, 2000 @04:09PM (#1209159) Homepage
    If I had my way, nobody would be eligible to vote until they had passed a literacy and civics test, similar to the requirements for becoming a naturalized citizen. I am opposed to idiots of any race/gender having the right to vote.
  • According to the stats page of Election.com, 35,765 people cast votes remotely

    Yabut... How many of them were actually alive and breathing? I don't know about Arizona, but in Illinois -- Chicago specifically -- dead people routinely cast election votes.

    This kinda gives a new meaning to the word "killfile"...
    --

  • Of course it's silly. I'd call it a legitimate concern if the only way to vote was via the Internet, but it's not. Go to the nearest physical location you can vote at, and do so. And besides, if you *really* want to vote through the internet, just stop by your local public library.
  • The CEO of election.com Joe Mohen has just been on CNN a minute ago.

    He claimed that it gave people more choices, especially people with disablities.

    It was interesting information that election.com is a FOR-PROFIT company. It does legal binding votings since about a year, not only in the U.S., but also in Europe. Most of these votings were for companies.

    I personally am a little sceptical about a for-profit company collecting votes in a democracy.

  • it's hard for me to find words for how utterly stupid and unbelievible(sp) this is. i hope this never EVER comes to my state (virginia). i absolutely guarranty(sp) this WILL be cracked. it's only a matter of time before someone finds the weaknesses and exploits them to elect whoever they want. accurate vote talling EXTREMELY important. hopefully, laws will be passed to make online voting illegal. this is truely beyond stupid.
  • How about your vote, are the votes of people who make snap judgements worth counting? Try to think a bit, and count how many steps your logic is away from restricting the right vote to white males again.
  • "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    Have you read that before??? It says nothing about giving "a well-organized militia the right to bear arms". It says that because the right to bear arms will not be infringed, the country will have a built-in militia.

    What part of "shall not be infringed" do you and other gun-banners not understand?
  • Which means you only have the right to keep and bear those Arms you received from the Government, as long as you are in the service of a Militia organized by the Government, with the purpose of defending the security of the State. The Militias organized by the Government to protect the security of the State are the National Guard and the Naval Militia. Keeping and bearing any other weapon is not a right, it's a priviledge which the Government may rescind at any time. That's why they won't let you carry a gun aboard a commercial airplane, for instance, or take your favorite assault rifle with you when you visit your dad or your sisters in prison.

    You obviously don't understand what the word ammendment means. You can't possibly realize that what you just said equates the rest of the rights granted us by the ammendments to privileges which may be 'the Government may rescind at any time'.

    I'm thinking the government should revoke your 'privilege' to spew this complete drivel.
  • Why dont we step back a bit and analyze this.... lazy people shouldn't vote ->a few steps-> white male only voters. Where did this come from? Who is making the sweeping generalizations?

    I'm waiting...

    What really scares me about this, is that it's not the government positing that certain types of people shouldn't do X (vote in this case) - I'd expect it from them. How in hell could you possibly oppose something that will ease the process of voting?!?!

    Realistically, if someone can't take the 30 minutes it takes to go to the ballot box, and is too lazy to go to the Post Office or Library to fill out a Absentee Ballot form, they shouldn't vote. Is it that hard?

    [sarcasm mode] Well, I agree, but I don't think that that is quite enough to prove one's worthiness. We should make sure that those that vote really mean it. Let's charge a few grand for the privilege of voting, then we'll know that those pesky voters are really committed. [/sarcasm mode]

    And anyway, since when is laziness not a desirable trait in a voter? Who the hell determined that?
  • The second ammendment just says the people who participate in government-organized militias may carry their guns home so they may be able to train shooting in their farms.

    Damn you're illiterate. Show me where it states that I must 'participate' in a militia to own a gun?

    The second is the only Ammendment that starts with a conditional clause.

    It's not a conditional clause, it is explanatory. What that means to me is that they wanted to make sure they got their message across even to idiots such as yourself. Let me boil it down for you: shall not be infringed.
  • Have you really forgotten the story about Jean McGrath so quickly? :)
  • Absentee voting should help these people out. They do not HAVE to vote on election day.


    That said, I like waiting for the last minute, since I may always learn something about all the wacky propositions we have in California to want to change my mind. Absentee voting by mail sucks because you have to vote a week or more in advance (and apply several weeks ahead of time). A good, easy, secure internet solution is nice because you would be able to vote at the last minute (ideally without having to apply for such a voting option too far ahead of time).



    In the future, I think the majority of voting will be done on computer, and it will help increase turnout. However, it will probably not do much to increase turnout for the poor (where the largest percentage of untapped voting power resides).

  • by DoorFrame ( 22108 ) on Saturday March 11, 2000 @03:06PM (#1209172) Homepage
    This story [cnn.com] at Cnn.com talks about how a voters' rights group is challenging the internet voting because it discriminates against minorities who have considerably lower access to internet technology:
    • But the head of a Virginia-based voters' rights group said the larger the turnout, the more discriminatory the election will be for minorities and others.

      "It just dilutes the votes of minority voters because they don't have as much access to the Internet," said Deborah Phillips, Voting Integrity Project president. "The more popular this is, the worse it is from our perspective."
    They go on to call it a modern day poll-tax. I think it's kind of silly myself, but it's an interesting point to counter everyone's "rah rah internet" attitude.
  • Putting aside arguments about the "tyrany of the majority" and whether or not our government is truly democratic -- or even if democracy is a good form of government -- my main problem with voting is that most people have no clue what they are voting for.

    In California, we had elections last Tursday on various bond measures along with the candidate selections. I read through much of the material this year to see what those measures were really about. What I found was truly appalling: the bond names related to about 1% of the bonds' effects.

    Two examples will help:

    • Prop 12: Parks, Water, and Coastal Protection Act
      The $2.1 billion bond covers aquisition of land containing natural resources, cultural centers for youth and senior groups, creating natural habitats, archaeological deposits, rock art, artifacts of California's physical legacy, sites, ruins and more.
      Hmm, did I miss the part about "coastal protection"? What do youth groups have to do with protecting our water? $2.1
      billion ... need I say more?
    • Prop 26: Majority Rule Act for Smaller Classes, Safer Schools and Financial Accountabiity
      Revokes most of Prop 13 from 1978 which implemented a cap (1%) on runaway property taxes. It changes the vote necessary from 2/3 to 1/2 for school bond issues. The rest mostly deals with limiting the growth of charter schools by increasing their costs.
      Safer schools sounds good, but it's not safety from guns or violence, it's safety from cracking ceilings and old buildings. The majority of the proposition deals with changes in charter schools: charging for use of unused public school facilities (it's free now), mandating attendance not drop from projected figures (and charging fees if it does), requiring charter schools be adjacent to or on public school property.
    Where are they getting the names for these bills? And have you read any of them? First, they're in lawyerspeak, which most Americans cannot understand. Second, they are looooong.

    • Bill of Rights: 482 words
    • Constitution of the United States: 4,735 words
    • Declaration of Independence: 1,302 words
    • Gettysburg Address: 271 words
    • The bill that became Prop 13: 56 pages, single spaced.
      roughly 13,000 words!

    So how is one to choose how to vote? Why, watch all the TV commercials: "Our schools are filled with violence!" -- "Our water gets more polluted every year" -- "Our kids will lose $700 million each year" -- "Indians will open casinos in your neighborhood."

    The legislators know very few people will read the bills and be able to make an informed vote. They know the rest will rely on the TV ads. So the TV ads use the same tactics used to persuade you to by one laundry detergent over another: branding that appeals to your emotions and fears.

    By encouraging everyone to "just get out and vote," we are vastly increasing the number of uninformed voters. Believe me, I want people to vote, but I don't want sheep to vote. But I'm sure that's what the legislators want.

    No, I don't know what the solution is. People have suggested having civics classes that teach people what the bills mean, but who decides what the bills mean? If it's the legislators who provide the summary material, what's the difference?

    I'd like to see the people who really care to take the time to research the bills be the ones voting. There's no reason for everyone to vote on all issues. Instead, provide a very easy way for people (everyone) to make their general desires known:

    • Taxes are too high.
    • Decrease defense budget.
    • No, it's not okay to tax tobacco users and give the money to children, as "nice" as that sounds.
    • Victimless crimes should not be crimes.

    Then, those that research and vote can take into consideration the consensus of their community along with their own views. This, I believe, was supposed to be the role of the legislators, but we are well past the point of that being viable. Now they are merely concerned with reelection and spreading pork to their districts.

    - PatientZero

  • Voting began before Bradley dropped out of the race. In fact, there were 3 possible choices.
  • Georgia Tech's student government elections have been done by computer for many years. Sorry!

    (And FYI, it was the first to have online class registration, the first large school to have web-based class registration, and the first to have a web-based course critique).
  • It was terminal based, to an old Cyber mainframe. You could telnet to it and log in with SSN and password. They were still using it for class elections before I graduated two years ago.

    Class registration used to be through that system, but started moving over to the web system sometime in '96(?). By the time I graduated, it was all browser based.
  • 35,765 people cast votes remotely in what the Arizona Democrats believe to be the first legally binding public election in the world conducted via the Internet. This number is almost triple the 12,800 people which voted in Arizona's 1996 Democratic Primary.



    Oh, sorry. My vote bot got out of hand.


    On the plus side, Mudge is the new representative form Arizona.

  • I'm terrible at math and all, but that's like one percent right? Sheesh. Democracy my foot.
  • Online voting was available for our recent Federation of Students election here at the University of Waterloo. I think we beat the Yanks to the punch by a week or two. I saw mention of this somewhere in print on campus, but I can't track down the clipping online. Here's a brief mention of the results though. Even though we were first to do online voting (which as far as I know is as legally binding as the Democratic one in Arazona), we were still mighty apathetic.

    http://www.adm.uwaterloo.ca/bulletin/2000/mar/02 th.html
  • You might try reading the pages that were linked to: if you wanted to vote, you have to enter a PIN that was mailed out to before the election. I assume that, if someone tries to use an invalid PIN, or a PIN that isn't 'real,' then you can't vote.

    I guess if you know someone else's PIN... but then again, that's not very different than knowing someone's password. Either way, there's not much you can do about it...
  • Since this is the first and only intelligent post on this thread, I'll respond to it, even though it's quite a bit OT.

    Being the libetarian type of person I am, I certainly agree with the notion that weapon possesion ensures liberty and democracy. I also agree that handguns or rifles or whatever people like to own won't make much difference in that type of fight.

    However, I think referring to it as a fallacious argument is overreacting a little. First, even if the total gun ownership in the nation won't make a dent in the armament controlled by the military, that doesn't mean we should end right there and just take them away. Every little bit will help, if it comes down to it. Second, I highly doubt the military would resort to using biological weapons on US citizens. They don't even do that in places liike Libya or North Korea (that we know about, at least), so to think that they would use bio. weapons, or nuclear weapons, on its own citizens is inconceivable. Guns, therefore, could make a little difference, but I admit, not as much as in 1780.

    There has been some kind of precedent from way back when that some weapons are just too dangerous for the public to own. Chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons certainly, and I would probably agree with that one. Also, any kind of large explosives ar either banned or highly controlled. Claiming that we would need bombs in the event we have to revolt against a civilized government might be a valid argument for large explosive ownership, until you realize that the potential for abuse is simply too large, from a utilitarian point of view, to allow. In other words, so many more people would die if random people could own huge explosives, that it's probably worth lessening the chances the citizens would win such a revolt. The question is how far you want to extend that argument. Nuclear bombs, biological weapons, of course. But will you extend it all the way down to automatic or semi-automatic weapons, or even handguns, and say that it's worth saving those lives, even though it lowers the chances that the people win their future revolt by x%? It's a question of balancing the two interests, and it's not one that can be answered easily and consistently. But next time you think about gun control and liberty, remember it's a continuium all the way from the H-bomb to firecrackers. How many lives do we want to save and how much do we want to risk the triumph of a totalitarian state?

    [[ If this sounds disjointed and unorganized, it's because I wrote it down as I though of it, and I just had a few drinks. Thanks for reading. ]]
  • It looks like they have basic security in place to avoid ballot-stuffing, but there is no way they can stop people buying votes now, is there? When you vote, you usually get the privacy to vote for what you like, no matter who tries to bribe you. But under this system, I don't see any way to stop somebody buying your vote, and making sure that you follow through by watching you as you vote over the net.
  • actually, vassar college [vassar.edu] held campus wide student elections over the Internet back in 96, i think. we also are (to the best of my knowledge) the first college to put the local paper, the misc, [slashdot.org] online as well. (that used to be my job!) though i wasn't the guy who actually put electios on line, i was part of the crew. we also had a lot of fears about cheating, but it really wasn't all that difficult to take care of. at the end of the day, we saw voter turn out go up by more than double, i believe. any other schools out there that do this?
  • Why?
    Because for the first time in a long time the polls might actually be balanced. For many years this country has had more power given to older people than younger people because of how the voting system works. Let's face it: If you're retired and dependent on medicare, you're going to be damn sure to get your voice heard at the ballots! On top of that, you one of the few people who have the time to get down to the ballot boxes. Other people, however, who may work 9-5 jobs or worse, do not!

    Now politicians may start having to pay attention to the younger generation once again!

  • What really scares me about this, is that it's not the government positing that certain types of people shouldn't do X (vote in this case) - I'd expect it from them. How in hell could you possibly oppose something that will ease the process of voting?!?!

    Whoever said voting was supposed to be an easy process? If (hypothetically speaking) you can't be bothered to drag yourself away from Jerry Springer long enough to head to your polling place, what are the odds that you've put any thought into your choices? Odds are good that you'll vote for whoever/whatever had the catchiest slogan, the prettiest/most handsome smile, or whatever...things that have absolutely no bearing on how a candidate might do in office or the effect a ballot initiative might have on your life and the lives of your neighbors.

    There's also the issue of security. You might trust your credit card to the Internet (I've made a few purchases that way and haven't been screwed yet, except for one company that took two months to ship a hard drive), but would you trust your vote to the Internet? I've been using the 'net for over ten years, but I don't think I would. I have a hard enough time dealing with the electronic voting machines used here (Clark County, Nevada) that generate no audit trail. Just as it'd be all too easy to divert a memory cartridge from one of those voting machines for some "reprogramming," what's to keep unscrupulous individuals (and since it was the Democrats who ran this experiment, unscrupulous individuals are a foregone conclusion) from intercepting/blocking communications, twiddling bits on the server, or whatever? Unless they've tightened security down on this thing like it was Fort Knox, they're just asking to be 0wNed by some script kiddie. Would you trust your vote to a script kiddie with a root kit?

    Maybe someone should ask the Arizona GOP why they didn't go for this plan. I bet it'd be interesting reading.

  • poor people ... are least likely to own a computer and to have internet access

    This is true today. However it may not be true in a few years time. Today, fairly poor people (though not the very poorest) are more likely to have newer televisions and video players - because TV is a comparatively cheap form of entertainment. This may be true of Internet access tomorrow.
  • Ummmm... no. We use voting booths and machines, so that no one, even the people running the show know who you voted for.
  • Oh, go fuck yourself you retarded OS zealot.
  • What happens if somebody intercepts a bunch of physical this-is-your-PIN letters on their way to the voters
    Supposedly, the system verifies your identity using "other personal information"... Probably your mother's maiden name, SSN, that sort of thing.
    or -- better yet -- snoops on their PINs when they're being sent online?
    The system only allows you to vote once, so this shouldn't be a problem. And incidentally, according to http://election.com/political/ar izona/security.htm [election.com], they do use SSL. Of course I can't check for myself.

    Sure, it's not foolproof. But it's probably a lot more secure than the complicated paper systems that are in general use.
  • by Coward, Anonymous ( 55185 ) on Saturday March 11, 2000 @02:23PM (#1209192)
    By your logic that people's votes should only count if they have to go out of their way to cast them, should we award multiple votes to people who live further away from voting centers and offer people who live close to a voting center a fraction of a vote? Should there be a bonus for people who don't have cars? Extra votes for people who are sick that day?

    No, of course not. Everyone gets one vote becuase everyone is one citizen, period, end of sentence. It's the responsibility of the government to make our lives better, if they can make our lives easier (which they can with internet voting), then they have the responsibility to do so.
  • An often forgotten point, from what I can tell...

    When the constitution was written, "the militia" was considered to be all the people in the United States. The reason being is that it was the people's responsiblity to defend the country -- there wasn't really a standing army, at least not one that could be compared to what we call the army now.

    "well regulated", in the language of the time, doesn't refer to organization (or control by the government). Rather, from the research I did, meant more along the means of "up to date" or "modernly equipped."

    What does this mean? Well, I think that it means that every person in this country has a right to own a "modern" firearm. This provision does NOT prevent the government from restricting access to certain firearms, it just prevents it from restricting access to all modern firearms.

    You must also consider that for a long period of time, there was a law in this country requiring that every able bodied man keep a rifle and a box of ammunition in their home.

    (for what it's worth, I don't own a firearm, and never plan on owning one)
  • Perhaps if the system was up 24/7 for long periods of time around the election.

    However, with a time period of 10 hours, cracking a system with decent security measures in place will be difficult. And you've got that 10 hour window once per year. Oh, and I bet the system changes a bit each time :).

    I'd be more worried about DOS attacks than someone hacking the system. Hell, if they wrote it right you can probably tell if the results have been tainted in some fashion....

    Can't get much worse than having voters vote 100 years after they die...
  • Actually, said person will probably start surfing the net and actually RESEARCH the candidates before casting a vote, as you actually know who's running before the trip to the ballot box.

    How many people do you know that actually know what they're voting on before they get there? Other than the highly publicized "races" on the evening *cough* news *cough*.
  • Incidentally, has anyone ever tried punching in every single hole? Has anyone here ever been in charge of one of the ballot counting machines? Would a "lace ballot" even slow them down? Here in Washington, the cards we use have enough "unpunchable" space that I doubt anyone could really fux0r them up that badly, but maybe somewhere...

    of course, presumably the only time anyone would punch a lace ballot is if all the candidates for every position, and all the measures presented, were just too dire to even consider...sadly, this situation ACTUALLY HAPPENS...
    --
    "HORSE."

  • When I think of internet voting, what scares me is not that it might be insecure, but rather, do we WANT to make voting accessible to people who can't find their way to their local polling station?

    Perhaps an example would be useful: Take Joe Q. Voter. He's a 27 year old male, who spends all his time on the computer. He doesn't go to election speeches. He doesn't own a car -- just takes the bus, which isn't often.

    Now imagine this. Our buddy Joe is surfing around the 'net, reading his e-mail, playing Quake, and looking at porn, when suddenly he sees a link that says "Vote Online Here!"

    Remember, he hasn't paid attention to any of the candidates' election platforms. He's probably sitting in his chair, scratching himself (sorry for putting that image in your head) with one hand, and using his mouse to cast his vote with the other.

    Now, ask yourself: is THIS the kind of person who we want to have a say in the next leader of the free world? I think not.

    Lets face it folks, the world would be better off if some people didn't vote! :)


    ,-----.----...---..--..-....-
    ' CitizenC
    ' "Bug? That's Not A Bug, That's A Feature!"
    `-----.----...---..--..-....-
  • The key here is "Armed". Should Joe Public be allowed to keep a SAW around? An RPG? Canisters of nerve gas? Perhaps some tanks? How about a few Atom Bombs? Back in the 1770's, the definition of "Armed" was much simplier. Should a group want to overthrow the current US government, it's not going to happen with a bunch of rifles and handguns.

    The "Armed" of the 2nd Amendment doesn't just mean rifles and pistols. The founding fathers had personal cannon and warships, as well - the absolute latest high-tek superweapons of the day. And the general population's small arms ran to higher-accuracy longer-range rifles while the world's armies were still toting smoothbores.

    There is no sign they intended that to change as technology improved - and plenty of sign that they intended the trend to continue. They knew about progress, especially in weaponry, and wrote about it incessantly. (Machine-guns, for instance, had already been prototyped at the time.) They stated clearly that they intended the population to always be BETTER armed than the government - both to stand off invasions from other governments and to their own government in its place - or destroy and replace it - if it ever got out of hand.

    So if the minions of governments have SAWs, RPG, nerve gas, or nukes, what makes anyone think the founders would not have wanted the citizens to have them, too? The logic of the "balance of terror" is as valid between a population and its government as it is between two governments.

    And what makes anyone think they're safer from a nuke in the hand of the likes of Hussein, or flammable-gas-projecting tanks in the hands of the likes of Horriuchi and Reno, than they are with them in the hands of a private citizen with the means to purchase them? (For myself, I'd trust any private citizen who could afford a nuke farther than most of the presidents since the start of the nuclear age.)
  • Just think: Once internet voting becomes standard the Chinese Army won't have to buy any more presidential elections. They can just put their new information warfare department to work and elect whomever they want.

    Ok, congresscritters. You can stop doing the campaign-finance-laws dance.
  • He's totally right, you're totally wrong. The only voting criteria in the U.S. is that you be a citizen, sane, and not a convict. Any other B.S. criteria, is just that.
    America is built on the fact that the stupidest mf'r in the world gets a vote. They don't have to prove anything, or take a test, or flog themselves to be worthiness. Who made you God to decide who gets the honor of casting a vote on things that effect everyones lives?
  • By the way, it IS possible to vote for 'none of the above', by not colouring any of the dots. In the days of paper forms you used to be able to draw a micky mouse on the form, but since we've got pin cards with magnetic stripes, and terminals with light pens, you can't anymore. The computer still allows you not to vote though, which is essential.

    So even people who want to exercise their freedom of speech by not voting can do so.

    At least there's more information in the fact that 3% of the voters returned an empty form, than in knowing that 51% didn't bother voting.
  • Here in Belgium, voting is mandatory. There's a fine for not voting, and every election there's a few thousand people (population ~10 million) that do get fined (although there's probably a lot more that escape).

    One of the main arguments pro voting duty is that 'less privileged' parts of the population get to have their democratic say.

    OTOH, some people think it encourages people to use their vote irresponsibly (voting for extreme right-wing parties out of dissatisfaction with more centrist ones, for example).

    Personally, I like it. It gives me a warm feeling to know everybody's had his or her say in the government of the country. Oh, and it's nice to have a choice of parties, as well. As in more than two parties.
  • What's to stop you cracking the PIN Code? Then you have multiple IPs, deleted cookies...

    Somebody with access to a LOT of IPs and a little time could make a big difference, no?

    Mong.

    * Paul Madley ...Student, Artist, Techie - Geek *
  • Just as any software package gets refined with time, election.com's will inevitably improve. Maybe Java, maybe Perl, hell maybe even ASP.. Who knows.

    I think, however, the fact that over 35,000 people managed to successfully vote online makes b****ing about implementation (security withheld, of course) a moot point.
  • This is pure biship. I admit that moving elections online is a quite liberal => Democratic idea, but to imply both that it will be used primarily by special interest groups to manipulate underprivileged citizens and that underprivileged citizens have less of a right to be heard by their government is utterly ridiculous.

    A. I am a fairly competent citizen of California working at an intense start up in a highly congested area aka San Francisco. I was unable to vote in our March 7th election for many reasons:

    1. Local Voting Booths close at 8pm.
    2. I work long hours, like many people in this industry.
    3. Traffic is very congested and most people, including myself, live a long way from where they work (real estate prices in this area are VERY high) - thus it takes a long time to get home/to a voting booth.
    4. I do not have my own method of transportation, so in many cases I am not in full control of how/when I can get home.

      All of these are common problems of citizens of highly congested urban areas like myself. Now tell me that internet voting would not gain a significant number of voters from this demographic...

    B. I am sorry to say that you have exactly as much right to vote as the homeless man you pass on your way to work everyday. In the eyes of the U.S. government, and the U.S. Constitution, you have exactly as much worth as he does. No more, no less. And they have as much right to say people who post ignorant comments on Slashdot should be denied the right to vote as they do to deny that right from any citizen of the United States.
  • Consider this: Traditional voting rules dictate that there is a certain distance around voting booths within which there can be no campaigning or campaign signs. With internet voting, this becomes a very different problem. Net voting booths are set up in various communities (as has already been done). Since these are not traditionally sanctioned voting locations, do they have to abide by the same no-propaganda rules?
  • So if I cast a vote, I must trust many employees of two companies, both hand-picked by the organisers. I have to be confident they won't conspire, nor compromise their keys. If my trust is misplaced, the organisers can both discover who I voted for and forge the count.

    In practice, I wan't eligible to vote, and I do trust the various parties, and the electronic voting was probably more secure than most paper ballots. But there are schemes where you don't have to have 100% trust in the powers that be. See the relevant chapter in Applied Cryptography.

    Why did the Arizona Democrats and Election.com choose a scheme which allowed them to cheat? Probably because a simple scheme is easier to implement & test.
  • Yeah, I happen to agree with that congressman - why bother registering people who just don't give a crap?

    But that can't be applied to internet voting.

    I voted absentee this year. I simply couldn't get to the poll in time - by the time I got back home (damn commute!), the polls would have been closed.

    Think of internet voting like absentee voting, only with the use of a keyboard and mouse rather than a punchcard (at least for California, I dunno how they do absentee elsewhere)...

  • EXCUSE ME?!? I hope this was an attempt at sarcasm. I vote for whoever I damn well please. So does my mom. And I'm pretty sure that Mary Matalin doesn't vote for whoever James Carville tells her too.
  • From what I read/watch they had made the network a very good one. But any time you do something first, you won't have everything go right.
  • Is pro-football sexist, because it discriminates against people who aren't 6'6" 250lbs or bigger, and these people are disproportionally women?

    If it discriminates against the poor, that's one thing. BUT DON'T CALL THAT RACIST.

    Does anyone stop to think that saying, "it discriminates against the poor" means "it discriminates against black people" makes the racist assumption that black people are poor?

    Never mind. I already know the answer. A jounalist? Stop to think?

    --Kevin
  • ...and miraculously remove all guns from society...

    While you're at it, could you:

    • Miraculously remove all the bugs from Win2K.
    • Miraculously give all the ACs a clue.
    • Miraculously create a world's supply of hot grits from a single bowl.
    • Miraculously have Natalie Portman personally deliver 2 large pepperoni pizzas to me, preferably within the next 20 minutes.

    Thank you.

    Oh, and have Natalie bring some whipped cream. She'll be wanting to wear it later.
    --

  • Does anyone stop to think that saying, "it discriminates against the poor" means "it discriminates against black people" makes the racist assumption that black people are poor?

    Not an assumption -- a statistical fact. Obviously not all black people are poor -- that remark would be racist -- but disproportionably enough that people stop and look at the consequences. Personally, I agree with you -- internet polling != discrimination -- but it's still worth thinking about.
  • 1. In order to vote one needed a unique PIN #, plus know the answer to at least two other pieces of personal information about the user.

    2. SSL was used in the transmission of the vote. Additionally, the java applet encrypted the sers vote prior to it "leaving" the voter's PC.

    3. The vote tallying was not done by election.com, it was done by an independent accounting/auditing firm which also oversaw the eniter application develoment process as well as the hardening and security measures in place at the hosting site. Also, the table keeping track of who had or had not voted was kept separate from the table that recorded the votes. Only the independent auditors had the private key to decrypt the votes themselves. The passwords to access the database servers were not known by any one person...half of the password was typed in by a member of election.com and the other half was typed in by a member of the auditing firm.

  • Note: I saw a news story on CNN (TV not web) on this so of course it was dumbed down, and reader-freindly but from what I could gather this is what it was trying to say:

    Apparently what they do is something like current absentee ballots where you put your name on the envelop then seal the ballot in a seperate envelop and put that in the first. When the government gets that ballot it takes down your name and tosses the sealed ballot to the side to count on election day. The result for the absentee is that they get that you voted but no one know who you voted for.

    For "e-ballots" what I heard was that they split the vote up, meaning when you click send (or whatever it is) the vote is broken up and sent to two diffrent locations. That means that they send the fact that you voted and all your information to one server, while the vote itself is sent to another.

    How this works I couldn't exactly explain because the article was so vague, but I think that since you have to fill this out by multiple pages (the ballot is not on the same page as the personal info) I'm assuming that they automatically transition servers after you submit the personal info, and of course if the company doing this is even remotely legit, they do this via SSL/SQL (I don't do web security correct me if this is wrong) so you can't hit back and vote a gazillion times.

    Also, the location of the servers for this election were kept secret and out of state to prevent tampering. They story also said something of encryption 4000 times more powerful than the current web standard (128-bit?), but of course they didn't explain how it was implemented and I have know idea how you'd implement it if the client side is still only 128-bit, 56-bit or whatever.

    Well that's my explaination hope you like!

    OakLEE

  • Were they able to collect statistics on how the internet voters voted, as compared to the overall population of Arizona? I'd imagine that could be an interesting statistic. (Although, given this primary season, more interesting in the Republican Party than the Democratic.)
  • *snicker* be like the weather reports. "Tuesday we expect a spot of lowered speed limit, so keep that foot off the accelerator - but that should clear up by Wednesday's meeting of the 623d division People's Congress. We're still having jaywalking enforcement on alternate Fridays for the next month. Oh, and the legal drinking age is at an all-year low of 16-3/4, but expect that to rise at state and federal levels in the next couple of months."

    Corner kiosks? You lack vision, my friend. Wearables!
  • Go to this site [votation.com] and see what you find. I know it's not (in of itself) a security breech, but it certainly doesn't comfort me any.

    I'm afraid I agree with those who say no online voting... it can't be done fairly, IMHO. (well, at least until they approve the new IP spec *grin*)

    MO
  • I guess if you know someone else's PIN... but then again, that's not very different than knowing someone's password. Either way, there's not much you can do about it...

    But authentication for voting should be better than just having to enter a single PIN. What happens if somebody intercepts a bunch of physical this-is-your-PIN letters on their way to the voters, or -- better yet -- snoops on their PINs when they're being sent online? (According to another poster, the site doesn't even use SSL!)

    The correct approach would be using public key encryption, which would eliminate the need to send out PINs (just grab the voting office's public key from the net) and, with a decent level of encryption like that offered by PGP, would make cracking the voting message nearly impossible. Unfortunately, I somehow doubt that the Powers That Be want to see PGP installed in every household, and the voting office still needs to get the public keys of all voters somehow. But there have been plenty of schemes for government-run public key authorities, and it's probably only a matter of time until the infrastructure for digital signatures is created.

    In all, online voting is a nifty idea, but there are a lot of security issues that need to be considered very carefully when implementing it. As a trivial example, can you imagine the impact of a well-timed DoS attack?

    Cheers,
    -j.

  • I don't think that this makes any sense at all. I think any method of increasing voter participation is good. While registering people automatically is kind of silly, this doesn't fit along those lines. Basically, it makes voting a more convenient process, and increases participation.
  • by ahogue ( 99357 ) on Saturday March 11, 2000 @02:29PM (#1209222) Homepage
    I worked as an intern for Election.com (formerly Votation.com) this past summer, before they had signed the AZ democrats. A couple of brief insights:

    • The first online election they did as a company this summer was for the IEEE. Believe me when I say that IEEE representatives went through the software with a fine-toothed comb, and made absolutely certain it was secure by their standards, which were extreemly strict. While I can't talk much about the software itself, suffice to say that just about any security problem you've thought of they thought of a long, long time ago, and fixed.
    • As far as the anonymity of the elections, yes, this is difficult to preserve in a strict sense. However, as far as I know, the PINs and names are kept in completely separate databases and never cross-referenced at all. Valid PINs are generated independently of the voters. Election.com also obviously signs strict confidentiality agreements with the AZ democrats, etc, so the chances of vote tracking are remote (and illegal) at best. The PINs are also generated from a pool large enough to make the aforementioned "Birthday paradox" extreemly improbable. It would be infinitely easier to get a fake ID and walk into the physical polling place and stuff the ballot that way.
    • As far as the disparity between different socio-economic classes, several of the press releases stated that an additional 29 polling places would be set up (above the traditional polling places) in under-privelidged neighborhoods to compensate.
    Just on a personal note, regardless of my connections with the company, I think online voting is absolutely one of the best things that could happen to the democratic process in this nation. From the voter turnout in this election alone, we can see that many, many more voters have turned out to express their opinions in this election. Voting this way is not catering to the "lazy" voters out there, as was suggested. Rather, it is giving the opportunity for everyone to take part in their government without ever having to leave their desks. I think if this catches on in other states (and eventually nationally) the democratic process in this country will improve exponentially - more people will care more about what is going on in their government, and for once, more people will do something about it.
  • What makes you so sure they actually buy elections without the Internet? Maybe they coerce the vote-counters! Bullets are cheaper. Oh... You mean the *AMERICAN* presidential elections..

    Maybe these early Internet voting schemes are straw-men to keep the old system (very opaque to the voters) in place? Maybe you're astroturfing for the Dept. of State!

    Anyone who has discovered public-key crypto knows that Internet voting is both workable, desirable, and is *FAR* cheaper than punch-ballots if done *CORRECTLY*...

  • Which is probably because I haven't got the faintest idea how the US voting system works (it seems to be kinda weird, however :-)

    > Aren't elections suppose to be annoymous? Can't they simply track your voting record by cross-referencing it with your pin number?

    Don't you normally have numbered sheets where you have to put your vote on? That would be exactly the same. But there are laws which forbid to cross-reference them to get personal voting data.

    The lack of SSL connections is however quite dumb...

  • Does that mean that you have no other choice than to physically go to some place and enter your vote there?

    Not even by snail-mail?

    If it really is that way, I'm not too surprised that too few people are voting in the US.

  • Linus Torvalds nominated for President!

    WASHINGTON-Today, 20,000,000,000 voters voted over the internet in a surprise nomination for president, the Linux creator Linus Torvalds.

    "Well, I'm honored, really, to get so many votes, but I wasn't actually born here, so I can't do it," a happy but reluctant Torvalds says.

    "This is the highest voter turnout we've ever seen!" Says Sen. H. R. Flappergaster. "The voter turnout for Mr. Torvalds was over 10000%. I have never seen anything like it."

    Some of the other candidates attacked the results, saying that the votes were 'faked.' They sited the fact that '20 billion is over three times the population of the Earth.' The Committee to Elect Linus Torvalds did not respond, except to say "neener neener neener."
  • by dogberto ( 102257 ) on Saturday March 11, 2000 @01:31PM (#1209228)
    Back in a U.S. History class a few years ago, my teacher was discussing the topic of low voter turn out rates and registration rates. In his discussion, he mentioned a case in which a congressman proposed that all U.S. citizens be automatically registered in order to see a higher voting rate. However, that idea was shot down quite quickly by another congressman who indicated that we should not register people who are too lazy to put in the time and effort to obtain an application and register to vote. There were no rebuttals.

    In some senses, voting via the internet seems to fall along similar lines. Such an action seems to be giving-in the people who are not motivated enough to drive to the polls to cast their votes. The above action should thus be avoided.
  • Why dont we step back a bit and analyze this....
    lazy people shouldn't vote ->a few steps-> white male only voters.
    Where did this come from? Who is making the sweeping generalizations?

    If anything, move Election Day onto a weekend. Let people go when they arent working. (Obviously you can't solve everyone's problem).
    Realistically, if someone can't take the 30 minutes it takes to go to the ballot box, and is too lazy to go to the Post Office or Library to fill out a Absentee Ballot form, they shouldn't vote. Is it that hard?

  • since when is laziness not a desirable trait in a voter? Laziness is not a desirable trait in surgeons, police officers, fire-fighters, etc.... You'll have a hard time convincing anyone laziness is a virtue.

    Going out on a limb here. If you are too lazy to go and vote, one can assume you are too lazy to follow the issues, and make an informed decision.
    Why should some jack-hole negate my well researched, carefully determined vote by blindly pulling a lever?

    Same reason holds true for the minimum age to vote. Why 21 then 18? Why not 6? Because most kids and teens don't care. (many do, i was one, but those are the exception).

  • honor of casting a vote on things that effect everyones lives.

    Very interesting statement you make. This is true. So why should an uninformed, lazy SOB get to affect my life?

    Not to pick nits. But only implies one. In most states, they vary slightly, The criteria to vote are, US Citizen, 18+ years of age, and not a convicted felon, and not been declared incompetant.

    From the FEC.GOV site, "Since most residents of rural America had to travel a significant distance to the county seat in order to vote, Monday was not considered reasonable since many people would need to begin travel on Sunday. This would, of course, have conflicted with Church services and Sunday worship. "
    Dont tell me you are over burdened and cannot go vote. People were travelling for days to vote. Look at voting in Africa and Eastern Europe. Those lines stretch for MILES.... MILES...

  • You're definately on the right track here, but let me guide you back on course.....
    The Amendments to the Constitution, and the Constituion in general is for limiting the powers of the Federal government. Look at the 10th amendment for proof. The text of the Declaration of Independance (which most of the Constitutional delegates also signed) says, "...that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights." Because it is an amendment, does not make it so.
    To the gun thing....in the next sentance or two after the unalienable thing is this: "...that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." So to the gun-control advocates I say this... If a goverment cannot trust is citizens to be armed, why must the citizen trust the goverment? The Framers knew that personal possession of firearms was *critical* to any people being able to keep their government in check. Hell, when Redcoats are facing you with muskets, all the name calling and rock throwing won't get them to listen to you.

    (stepping off the soapbox)

  • If a goverment cannot trust is citizens to be armed, why must the citizen trust the goverment?
    The key here is "Armed". Should Joe Public be allowed to keep a SAW around? An RPG? Canisters of nerve gas? Perhaps some tanks? How about a few Atom Bombs? Back in the 1770's, the definition of "Armed" was much simplier. Should a group want to overthrow the current US government, it's not going to happen with a bunch of rifles and handguns. The complications of violently overthrowing the government are far, far greater than when the Consitution was drafted.

    You can argue all you want about gun rights, but please don't tell me it's because you need to be ready to violently overthrow the government.

  • They say that it excludes some segments of our society that do not have computers or internet access.

    This is the type of liberal drivel that really annoys me. To think Internet voting excludes poor people because they don't have computers is ludicrous. IF YOU DON'T HAVE A COMPUTER, GET UP AND GO TO THE POLLING STATION. For God's sake - people with money can afford to be lazy and vote by computer. So what are we gonna do, spend billions of dollars of tax money to give poor people computers so they can be lazy and vote on the Internet, too? Will that be "fair?"

    PS: Not attacking you, sreo, just the annoying liberal mindset that accompanies any new innovation in this country.

  • Did you even bother to read the article before spilling forth your uninformed garbage? Each Arizona registered voter is assigned a PIN which he or she must enter before his or her vote is counted, which brings about a host of other security and privacy concerns, but not the specific ones that you mentioned.

    Possible problems include:
    -Interception of PIN numbers before delivery
    -"Birthday paradox" style attacks; one might accidentally run into a valid PIN, depending on how many combinations there are
    -Many opportunities for your ISP/random host on the Internet to gather information, if the voting isn't done via an encrypted link
    -Disparity in access between those of higher socioeconomic status and those for whom an Internet connection is less available (although people can still vote the traditional way)
    -Authentifying votes as valid, while preserving the privacy of individual voters. A blinded signature scheme (c.f. Chaum digital coins) might help solve this problem.
  • if you wanted to vote, you have to enter a PIN that was mailed out to before the election. I assume that, if someone tries to use an invalid PIN, or a PIN that isn't 'real,' then you can't vote.

    hmmm, I wonder if they send them to the entire voting list or only people who have re-registered that year. Here in Cambridge, you only get voter info if you filled out the little "census and re-registration" card that they send you every year. But everytime I go and vote, the lists include housemates who moved out long ago and people who lived here before my landlord even bought the house. If they sent to everyone and had as bad a policy on inactive voters as we do around here, yeah, people who lived in say an appartment complex with a high turnover could cast 20 votes just by gathering up the envelopes in the return to sender stack in the mailroom. Or, better yet, recruit a couple of mail carriers to just keep all the notifications that they know don't live there anymore.

    Not saying this would realisticly effect an election, just thinking about possible holes. Addmittedly a collection of people in different districts with good memories and the ability to read upside down can quarduple or more their votes around here if they want to put in the effort, so take it as you will.

    -Kahuna Burger

  • by KahunaBurger ( 123991 ) on Saturday March 11, 2000 @01:59PM (#1209243)
    Such an action seems to be giving-in the people who are not motivated enough to drive to the polls to cast their votes.

    er, what if you don't own a car? retoricly speaking, since I live in a densly populated area and have been able to walk to my polling place most years, but...

    You may have noticed that voting takes place on a workday. What if you commute long distances or work double shifts? even in national elections, most places don't allow you to choose a polling place near your work so you can vote on your lunch break. If you leave for work at 6am and get home at 8pm, tough, you don't vote.

    What if you have a job where you travel a lot at hard to predict intervals? I took (in joke) to blaming the outcome of a close race here on a housemate who had to fly to chicago at the last minute to courier deliver something for her company. The last minute happened to be election day.

    I have friends who's lives are so hectic that they register for absentee ballots as a matter of course. Bottom line is, people's lives are not always "9 to 5, work in the same town as you live" but voting still is. Secure internet voting is a way to allow greater political involvement, not just of the lazy, but of the hectic motivated. Works for me.

    -Kahuna Burger

  • by ratsdliw ( 125847 ) on Saturday March 11, 2000 @01:27PM (#1209251)
    It's a great idea that you can now vote online. The process looks simple. You type in a pin number that they sent to you a few weeks earlier, cast your vote, and your all set.

    I see one big problem with this.
    Aren't elections suppose to be annoymous? Can't they simply track your voting record by cross-referencing it with your pin number?

    Another thing that worries me about this is that the pages don't look SECURE. When IE is on a secure page the icon of a webpage turns golden. They have a bunch of screen-shots and the icon doesn't look golden. You can grab them here. [election.com] Wouldn't this be a little problem? Hmmmm.
  • The first legally binding public election via the Internet is the first step toward innovation in our present form of government.

    Remote voting is extremely efficient. The steep increase in turnout in Arizona demonstrates that technology has the potential to allow voting on a much broader level. In the future, we may no longer have to rely on candidates to speak fully for us. Perhaps, the people of a nation could individually vote on political issues.

    On the local level, referendum-style voting occurs all the time, but what about on the national level?

    I would like to make an assumption here. Suppose we can avoid the balloting process being influenced in an inappropriate/disproportionate manner by special interests and other groups. That is, suppose we could have a fully secure and accurate voting system via the Internet. Then I think a true people's government (an open government) could be a reality

    Much like the telephone, computers will soon be in every home. The connection provided by the Internet could allow a national level voting populace to decide on the legislation of specific issues instead of a select few. What bills do you want to have passed? What bills do you oppose? Instead of writing a letter to your congress person, cast your own vote.

    I wonder if everyone having such specific voting power would be a bad thing? Popular sentiment is easily influenced by the news media. Can that component be minimized acceptably?

    So let's change topics for a second. The open-source ethic seems to have spontaneously come into existence at the present level (without giving specific credit where due). When open source works, open source propagates. A fundamental change to the nation's political system could yield the same result. An open government, that is one in which the people have full scrutiny and voting power, could work self- correctingly. When problems arise, the dissemination of current and plentiful information via the Internet and remote voting could work to fix things. You don't have to do it for us -- we'll do it ourselves!

    Optimal efficiency and participation are high ideals. Is there enough faith in the people to be able to decide their fates? Will the corruption found in all political systems keep this theoretical notion of government from coming into existence? Could such a system even be created?

    Anybody want to start the Open Party?

    --
    Free.
  • Actually some people have claimed that there is no real racial divide in terms on net access, but it's rather a reflection of racial disparities in terms of economics. An article at the New York Times [nytimes.com] (the cgi-enhanced http address doesn't work if I paste it here; do a search for "racial" in the Technology section) mentions a few interesting studies done on the subject. The point, I think, should be made in terms of class rather than race; poorer Americans are much less likely to use the internet, and presumably will be less likely to vote online.

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