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Television Media

ReplayTV To Track Viewing Habits 153

Posted by emmett from the freedom-is-slavery dept.
drwiii writes: "This article over at CNN talks about a deal between Nielsen and ReplayTV to develop technology to track time-shifted viewing habits. The ReplayTV unit doesn't have software to track viewing choices, but it looks like it'll be getting it now. The article also touches on Nielsen's relations with TiVo and Microsoft (WebTV)." Fantastic. Now I'll expect junk mail every time I linger a little too long over Buffy . I think that if these machines are going to be used for market research, the networks should pay the bill, and they should be free to everyone.
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ReplayTV To Track Viewing Habits More

ReplayTV To Track Viewing Habits

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  • Re:And why not? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Basically, your arguing that this will result in long term benefits. I'm not going to argue that point with you ( I'm sure there will be plenty of others who will ).

    Let's accept this premise for the moment - eventually the technology will "do wonderful things for everyone".

    Even if we assume that, it doesn't alter the fact that in the short term, it will be used by greedy and unscrupulous companies to invade peoples privacy.

    All technologies cause social disruption in the short term. It takes time for society to come to grips with the problems and to come up with effective ways of dealing with those problems so that they *stop* being problems.

    This is where people often simplify the issues involved in the introduction of new technology with their excessive enthusiasm/hatred of the subject.

    As nerds, we generally see technology as a positive thing and that whatever harm is done will ultimatly be offset by the greater benefits that it brings to society.

    The hardcore ludites on the other hand see it as automatically being a bad thing.

    What many people often fail to see is that both propositions are right. In the long term, we probably will gain advantages from these technologies. But in the short term, people will get screwed. Because of that, the privacy issues involved are not trivial. They are also part of what you have called "fumbling steps" and it would be foolish to ignore these issues.

    You might be strangling my chicken, but you don't want to know what I'm doing to your hampster.

  • Alright, perhaps you should read TiVo's privacy statement [tivo.com] before droning on about how evil giving a show a thumbs up is. Here's the first section:

    No one outside your home, not even the TiVo staff or any of TiVo's computer systems, will ever have access to any of your personal viewing information without your prior consent.

    The suggestions that it gives you based on your ratings is apparently all done locally. TiVo has done an excellent job, IMO, of addressing privacy concerns.

  • Sky Digital in the UK do this already (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    In the UK, one of the conditions of having a Sky-Digital set top box is that you must connect it to a telephone line.

    Quite what information is transmitted back-to-base over this link is unclear, although it's a safe bet they're tracking their slave^W customers' viewing habits.

    What this really means is that TV will get more of the kind of adverts and programming which appeal to the drooling masses. Some would say this has already happened ;-).

    I'm ditching my TV when they switch off the analogue transmitters in 10 years time.

  • This is good - think about it. (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 17, 2000 @09:59PM (#1126721)
    It means you no longer waste time flipping from station to station trying to find good nerd programs like "Star Trek" and "Babylon 5". Instead the computer figures it out for you.

    I suppose the usual slashdot paranoids will come out and start whinging about privacy. But who really cares if some 15-year old linux zealot is watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or Pokemon ? Does anyone care ?

    This could also lead to quicker retirement of unpopular programs, meaning that we don't have to put up with rubbish for so long. I mean, wouldn't it be great if moronic shows like "Friends" had been canned after the first series because nobody was watching ?

    Also maybe they would not have finished off Married with Children so quickly if they knew how many tech-savvy geeks with high disposable income were tuning in...

    Think about it. This is a no-lose situation.

  • The software on the 30hr unit is different from the 14hr one. The closest I have read of someone doing a home upgrade was on avsforum.com's tivo forum. Someone managed to use another disk copy program (ghost failed for him) to copy the two drives in the 30hr unit to his 14hr first drive and an ordinary IDE second drive. The catch in all this is that the space is still just 30 hours, if you use a larger drive, it only writes up to the size of the original. So, since you must have an existing 30hr unit to copy from and until someone breaks open the filesystem code (I read it wasn't in the kernel mods, and handled by a userland program so they could use patented algorithms and such), it's pointless.

    Btw, this mounth both Philips and Sony have been releasing 30 hours units for the price of the old 14hr ones ($399ish).
  • Preach on Brother Attarac. You mean Slashdot authors aren't deities of all things geekish??

    This place is a hotbed for this sort of stuff. Sure no one reads that Tivo (I presume ReplayTV has a similar one, I just don't care enough to look for it right now) has a privacy statement and all. But as long as a conspiracy can exist, it will here. I just find it odd that in the Area51 article, most people say basically aliens don't exist anyway. But here, everything is "They could track you" and "When there's a phone line they are tracking you." One I liked was that doubleclick broke their privacy statement, therefore all statements are crap. Heck, if that's the rules, all domains should cost $100,000 because that .TV TLD charges that much. Heck, there's more testimonials and camcorder tape of suspect alien activity than there are of halfway-valid report on Tivo breaking their privacy statement.

    Anyway, Slashdotters as a whole will always be knee-jerk reactionists. Hell, does anyone look at the articles anymore? I mean, the ones that live long enough to be viewed. It's all "such-and-such could happen theoretically, so to hell with this company."
  • Yeah. The minute Tivo puts out a How-to-do-it-yourself HOWTO, some yocal will attempt it, fry his hard drives (and his entire house) and blame Tivo. Face it, consumer electronics are not meant to be opened. You can't replace the CD or DVD in one of them. You can't add extra tuners to your TV. Well, the manufacturers for any such device won't tell you how to at least for this very reason. Morons are lawsuit happy nowadays.

    Now if someone manages to figure it all out, fine. But it's left in this hacker community. Morons can try to sue Joe Hacker for making a web page about it, but chances are he doesn't have much money. Big companies like Phillips on the other hand, have lots of money, so people are perfectly content extorting them. It just will never be sanctioned by the manufacturers. And Tivo only makes the software, it's Phillips' and Sony's job to put together the hardware.

    Now, just sit back and watch all the nice recordings...
  • Ah, but you forget, it could be done secretly behind your back. That is what drives people here, the possbilities... Could, does, same thing.
  • So they give you no guarantee of privacy. My cable company (MediaOne) has a little tv guide thing in the cable box. It downloads when I turn my box off via the coax. I get no guarantee with them either.

    On the other hand, Tivo does give such a guarantee. Go figure...
  • There is no "Big Brother" in your ReplayTV.

    ... but there could be. What more does one need to go on rants about privacy here?

  • ReplayTV (Score:2)

    by Jordy ( 440 )
    I actually have a replay box. It doesn't require a subscription or any type of registration with replaytv. This means that what replay will be tracking is simply my viewing habits blind. Replay knows the telephone number I'm calling from however.

    I'll tell you, I sure as well have my viewing habits tracked to pick better TV than someone else. I'm personally sick of my favorite tv shows being canceled.

    As long as I'm not blasted by more ads, I'm ok with it. The 25% ad time for TV today is a bit excessive as it is.
  • In Europe, privacy is regulated: There are national and european laws detailing what can and can't be done with your personal profile.

    The US approach is different and betting on self-regulation in the market. Self-regulation could work, if personal profiles were a thing you, the person being profiles, owned. That is not the case: Your profile is owned by anyone who care to profile you.

    Markets can regulate anything that has a price. As long as your profile does not have a price, as long as companies do not need to pay for taking your profile, and as long as you can't sue them if they do without having a contract with you, self-regulation does not work.
    © Copyright 2000 Kristian Köhntopp

  • I wouldn't mind them using demographic info, as long as it's only used in an aggregate form. I don't want my demographic info being associated with my identity. That begs for abuse. Targeting is going to be done whether they have data to go on or not. This could help them be more certain of what sort of people are watching. It won't help them make any better assumptions about what those people are interested in or are likely to buy.

  • Just looked at it again and realized they don't actually offer it "at this time." My mistake.

    This site [maxheadroom.com] does make some suggestions on how to obtain the videos though.

  • I have a friend who buys sympathy greeting cards and crosses out the copy and writes in his own greeting. His reason, the card companies monitor the sales so closely the purchase of a couple of sympathy cards instead of birthday cards will modify what is being marketed, ipso facto one less sappy commercial for birthday cards.

    So, what you're saying is that he paid them $3 for a piece of paper, and walked away feeling like he'd taken advantage of them.

  • Yeah, it's all fine and dandy until George Dubbya is elected president, and his buddies Pat Robertson and Jimmy Bakker^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H and the rest of the moral majority decide to make Porn illegal, and go after the list of folks who regularly watch porn, conveniently provided by the high-tech solution of ReplayTV.

    I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
  • yeah, or at least how to upgrade the HD myself.

    I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
  • "The usage statistics generated from this data will be bizarre. The X-Files will have a 95% share,
    and about 1% of viewers will tune in for Touched by an Angel. This won't exactly be
    representative of the general viewing public. "

    And this is a *bad* thing?


    I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
  • They're not concealing this information because they're afraid of lawsuits. They're concealing this information because they're greedy and want to charge $300 for a 10 gig IDE drive. Bastards.

    I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
  • It's a very good thing that everyone here is concerned about the possible privacy concerns here, but there is less to it than the post here suggests.

    The abilities that they want to put into ReplayTv will enable the Neilson people to start allowing the inclusion of households with digital video recorders (DVRs?). Right now, they can't track such households, because they track by channel number & time that a show is tuned in, while the DVRs allow you to watch something 15 minutes, hours or days after it airs. What they are doing will ALLOW people with ReplayTv to participate in the Neilson ratings system. It's very much an OPT-IN kind of thing, especially since Replay and Tivo do NOT ask you info that the Neilson people need (like are there childern, pets, computers, etc in your house). You'd have to say "Hey, I want to be a Neilson household, get a box to punch in when I'm sitting in front of the tube, when I get up and walk away, and supply all this statistical info."

    And as far as targeted advertisement and viewing habits... At least on Tivo (which I own one of), the ratings you give to things you watch/record are only stored locally. When the next 2 week's worth of shows gets downloaded, it indexes according to genre, actors and other stuff, and then compares that with the shows that you've rated. If it finds something that you might like (based almost completely on genre & actors, not titles, directors, etc.) it schedules something to record. No data is uploaded to accomplish this.

    Now, people do have some things wrong... Tivo at least promises never to link your viewing habits to your account without your expressed permission, but they do reserve the option to upload aggregate info on what shows were watched. They just aren't allowed to match that up to your account. It would only be of limited use to them anyway, as you only give one person's name, address & phone number to them, and not enough information on who else might be in that household.

  • Then just buy a Tivo, but don't subscribe to the service. It's that simple. You don't get software updates, guide data, etc... but you've got a digital video recorded that works ALMOST like a VCR; You can watch something from the beginning, even if it's still being recorded. You can watch anything already recored, in any order, even while a show is being recorded. What you can't do is watch one show LIVE (through Tivo), while recording another show. There's only 1 tuner in the Tivo, and it's designed to watch all shows through it, allowing pausing of live tv.

  • If it's broadcast I sure as hell do. Those airwaves don't belong to the TV companies - they have to be licensed to use them, b/c of the overriding public interest in the EM spectrum. Sadly the sat. tv companies have rammed through legislation prohibiting the decoding of their signals, even should the signal end up trespassing onto my property (which is absurd - i don't care if they encrypt it, just don't make it illegal to decrypt it).

    otoh, i really don't give a crap what they do on cable, though i'm sure there are non destructive ways of listening in on it w/o imparing the signal. there's clearly no such issue when it comes to broadcasting.
  • i own my house. and i have a tv with a 'rabbit ears'-type antanna. funny how the signal can get into my house.
  • They're only going to track people who are ALREADY NIELSON VIEWERS. Replay isn't harvesting customer information, NIELSON is. That's their JOB! People need to read a little before they freak out. And GOD FORBID companies might show you advertising for something you might actually WANT TO SEE! That's worse than HITLER!

    </Sarcasm off>
  • If you want to support streaming over FireWire in any kind of retail consumer electronics environment, you have to abide by an amazing amount of rules, and pay a huge number of fees in order to become DTLA compliant. Without DTLA-compliant hard drives, there wasn't much Replay could do...
  • Have you noticed that broadcast, and to a lesser extent cable, networks, and also local broadcasters on local and syndicated shows they control the scheduling of, have started "fudging" start and end times?
    Popular shows, like E.R., get started not at 10:00 pm right on the dot but anywhere from 30 seconds to 2 minutes early.
    I think it's so they can turn a 60 minute show into a 61 or 62 minute show so as to include more ads in the proram without violating FCC regs on ad minutes per hour, although it could be to get you to watch them live and tape the competition.
    Are Replay or Tivo "smart" enough to adjust to this so as to not miss "taping" any of the show?
    Are there any VCRs that let you set the start taping time at 1 minute 37 and a half seconds before the top of the hour?
    Wouldn't it be nice if cable TV companies were strictly common carriers with no stake in which programs you watch so that they could provide an impartial continuous up to date data stream on the cable that would allow a computer-TV tuner-video recorder hybrid to let you tell it to "record all of the 'Harsh Realm' episodes Friday nights on FX" and it would take care of the rest?

    note to all 13 year old taste and opinion nazis out there: feel free to substitute other programs in examples cited

  • How about letting smokers avoid anti-smoking commercials so that when we're sitting there indoors late at night watching TV and not concious at that moment of the existence of cigarettes or that we use them, we don't suddenly get presented with something that reminds us and sends us heading for the back door, fumbling in our pocket for our lighter.

    And while we're at it, I could do without late night food ads on the same general principle.

  • Regardless of whether you wanted Bork on the bench or not, if it can be abused, it will be abused, and not always in obvious, forseeable ways. Didn't the Doubleclick problem not start until they somewhat unexpectedly partnered up with someone else and combined databases?
  • Strangley enough there were actually two different Max Headroom series produced after the original.

    The first was a half hour, late night pop video program which ran for a couple of seasons in the UK, hosted by the decidedly un-computer generated talking head, the second season including interviews with pop stars of the time (whose reactions stuttered in time with Max, which completely ruined the already troubled illusion). Although Max got irritating after a while, the videos were pretty good, including a lot of underground stuff that had no outlet on uk tv at the time (this is well before MTV:UK). I mean, they showed Cabaret Voltaire!

    The second series was more like the original short, featuring Edison as the main character, but only ran for one season in the US (or possibly Canada, I'm not sure). Unfortunately the first episode of the US version was a poor remake of the Jankel/Morton original which pretty much set the tone for the episodes to come.

    Max also appeared on the single release of the Art of Noise "classic" Paranoimia, appearing on a monitor on a hospital trolley in the video IIRC.

    Now does anyone have tapes of the pop-progs?

    This review was brought to you by the Zik-Zak corporation.
  • OK, help me understand...

    I value my privacy a great deal, but I just can't figure out how I'm supposed to be nervous about someone finding out that I like to watch Hogan's Heroes reruns when I get home from the bar, and Star Trek: TNG reruns after work.

    In fact, I'd be happy to tell them if they asked. I mean, really, why should I be concerned if some network exec knows which shows I like to watch.

    What dark purpose could be served by the networks having the knowledge that Babylon 5 is viewed mostly by young men? Seems to me the main result of that will be me being subjected to fewer "Tampax was there" commercials.

  • True, you can crack it open and Ghost the image to a bigger drive, but there goes the warantee.

    Actually, from the research I've done, Ghost can't handle the drives in the Tivo. Tivo has come up with a proprietary file system which Ghost is not capable of resizing.

    It seems, though, that the driver for this new file system should be included in the kernel mods that they had to release under the GPL, although I haven't taken the time to browse through their source to verify this.

    Having had a 14 hour Tivo for just over a week now, this upgradeability issue is starting to get under my skin to the point where I'm considering starting a project to come up with an open set of tools for doing these upgrades. There are still issues, however, that might make it a better long term solution to simply come up with a complete set of replacement software, using the Tivo only as a hardware platform.

    I strongly encourage that anyone thinking about buying a replay TV go out and shop for a really high quality capture card instead.

    I have a decent capture card, I still bought a Tivo. They're two completely different products, and they serve completely different purposes. That's like advising anyone looking for a semi-tractor to buy a Dodge Neon instead.
  • I read the same post. In another thread on the same board, however, it was revealed that when Tivo (the company) upgrades a unit, the second drive is formatted with with nothing but a "magic bit sequence" that instructs the Tivo to prepare it for use, update some information in it's prom, and begin using the new capacity. The reason that the larger disks still only provided him with a 30 hour unit was that he did not resize the partitions when he duplicated the drives.

    Without knowing all the details, I'm sort of suspecting that finding and decoding that magic bit sequence would be the key to being able to add any size disk to the Tivo that you wanted. I'm kind of itching to get this all figured out so I can throw a pair of IBM 75 GB drives into mine. 160 hour Tivo, anyone? (Anyone want to donate an unused 30-hour, two disk Tivo for research purposes? :-) Is anyone working on this sort of thing? So far, all of the succesful user upgrades I've heard about pretty much require you to have another Tivo on hand to extract drive images from. It'd be much nicer to not have to do that.

    Stepping even further out on a limb, what I'd really like to see is a full, open-sourced, replacement for the Tivo software. I'd love to have my Tivo automatically skip commercials, but Tivo will never implement this due to business pressures. With alternative software, that wouldn't be a problem.

  • before I record RAW is WAR

    Whaddayamean, "RAW is WAR"? Read-after-write hazards are not the same as write-after-read hazards. And you forgot write-after-write...

    Sorry, too much Hennessy & Patterson [mkp.com] in my blood right now :-)

  • Okay, I am not a statistician, but I do have a degree in Psychology. :) I don't think that this data would be all that useful. Don't the Nielsen ratings try to reflect every type of viewer? To have statistics that are even remotely valid for the population as a whole, you'd have to do random sampling, and make sure you got a decent cross-section of the types of viewers in the country.

    You'd need old people, young people, people with kids, rich people, poor people, white people, black people, and purple people eaters. Now, this does not lend itself well to the RePlay/TiVo/whatever model where the boxen cost $400. Why? Because the people who are going to buy these are most likely going to be white males in their 20's with disposable income who like gadgets. My parents and my grandparents aren't going to be shelling out $400 for a set-top box anytime soon, neither will most poor households, or households with children in them. Would you let your kids take control of your TiVo? You'd wind up with 20 hours of the TeleTubbies recorded.

    The usage statistics generated from this data will be bizarre. The X-Files will have a 95% share, and about 1% of viewers will tune in for Touched by an Angel. This won't exactly be representative of the general viewing public.

    I agree completely with the sentiment that the service/device should be free or discounted if they're going to use you for market research. I'd be willing to let them have tons of demo info on me if I got one for free, I can tolerate junk mail just fine, and telemarketers can't get through my phone blocks. :)
    ---
  • I bought a TiVo a couple of weeks ago so that I could watch a TV program or two a week that I would otherwise miss, since I have been getting home from work at 10:30pm lately. Before I installed it, I did not realize that each day TiVo would attempt to fill the hard drive with programs it chooses via collaborative filtering.

    My brother noted that so far, the thing only records things like ER, political shows, business and entrepreneurship programs, and European bicycle racing. I guess I'll have to click the "thumbs up" button a few more times for some diversity in the mix of recorded programming.

    --

    Dave Aiello

  • As far as I can tell after having the unit for a couple of weeks, TiVo does not distinguish between users at all. Whoever picks up the remote can say whether they like or dislike a program (by clicking the thumbs up or thumbs down buttons) and that is the rating for that program for your household.
    --

    Dave Aiello

  • What would probably be of most interest to market research groups like Nielsen would be information on what recorded programs a TiVo or Replay user saved to their VCRs.

    It took a little experimentation to get "Save to VCR" working on my home theater system, but so far I have recorded that Code Rush documentary about Mozilla and the movie Apocalypse Now that was shown on IFC. This is really valuable because now I have the opportunity to watch these things with friends who do not get to see what is on DirecTV because they don't come to my house as often as I get to their place.
    --

    Dave Aiello

  • ... No, really?

    --

  • Yeah! And I want to know which people on my block are homosexuals. And which are atheists. And which are communists. And which are muslims. And which have had an abortion. And which have AIDS. And which have ever tried pot. And which have ever rented a porno flick. And which have ...

    I want to know every sercret you have.

    //sarcasim off

    As long as people persecute other people for differences in beliefs and lifestyles, I want privacy. As long as I am not breaking the law (assumption for this discussion, the laws are just) I should be left alone if I so choose.

    THIS IS MY LIFE. I SHOULD BE ABLE TO CHOOSE WHAT I WANT TO SHARE AND WHO I WANT TO SHARE IT WITH.

    Learn some history. SteveM's Law: If privacy info can be used against you it will be.

    It wasn't safe to be a communist in the US in the 50's, even though it was legal. It wasn't safe to be a Japanese-American in the US during WWII, even though it was legal. In some places in the US today it is not safe to be gay (for example, you'll get thrown out of the armed services) even though it is legal. It isn't always safe to be an abortion doctor in the US, even though it is legal. I'm sure there are other examples in the US and elsewhere.

    You closed with the open source arguement, I'll counter with the anonymous coward one.

    Steve M
  • Both ReplayTV and TIVO use a phone connection to download TV listings.

    I have a ReplayTV. It dials into the ReplayTV servers every night to update a weeks worth of TV listings. Without those TV listings, you cannot program the device to record TV shows.

    Without the listings I could use the box to watch live TV, and still take advantage of pause, replay, rewind (how do you rewind a hard disk?)and such. I can also record shows by pressing the record button when the show starts.

    But without being able to program the device for future recording it become much less useful to me. Thus not plugging in the phone line pretty much defeats the purpose of having a ReplayTV.

    Steve M

  • Are Replay or Tivo "smart" enough to adjust to this so as to not miss "taping" any of the show?

    ReplayTV is not. It goes by it's program listings. Thus it misses the beginings of shows that start early or the end of shows that start late. It also doesn't know when sporting events go long and offset the rest of the schedule. This creates to problems. If you're recording the game you don't record the overtime. If you're recording a program after the game you only get part of it.

    It records based only on the start and end times in the program guide. And there is no mechanism for manually entering a start and end time for a recording.

    Steve M

  • You get tracked, so what? Well... (Score:5)

    by jetson123 ( 13128 ) on Monday April 17, 2000 @11:56PM (#1126760)
    Seems like no big deal: you get ads that are relevant to your interests, and programs you like go up in the ratings and stay on TV. What's wrong with that?

    Well, several things. First of all, the goal of targetted advertising and television ratings is to sell you stuff. It isn't to challenge, educate, broaden horizons, or install a sense of community or civic duty. If someone is white supremacist survivalist, they are going to get a steady diet of gun commercials and right wing commentators, reinforcing their beliefs rather than educating them about alternative views. This subverts the medium of television even further than it already has been subverted.

    But there are other concerns, too. In communist countries and Nazi Germany, people would get picked up and thrown in jail based on inferences about their ideology, derived from the flimsiest pieces of evidence: books they read, newspaper clippings they kept, remarks they made to friends.

    Of course, something as blatant and crude as that doesn't seem like it's in the cards in the short term for the US (well, unless the religious right wins).

    Things are likely to be much more subtle in the US. Data mining programs will make inferences from your viewing habits, possibly combined with your shopping habits, about lots of aspects of your life. Are you a home gardener or are you growing pot? How sexually active are you? What's your likelihood of developing heart disease? Are you a dangerous driver? Are you financially responsible?

    This kind of data could be used to determine your insurance rates, credit worthiness, school admissions, job eligibility, propensity to engage in drug use or other criminal behavior, etc. To the insurance company, police, employer, or school, it's only statistical averages that matter: if you move to the top of their list, they'll make your life difficult. And for the individual, it will be difficult to prove that anything unusual has happened; in fact, this kind of analysis isn't illegal as long as it isn't used as a proxy for race.

    There are massive personal data collections going on, and with good statistical techniques, anybody with the money to purchase the data will be able to get statistically excellent information on you. You can bet that this data won't just be used for targetted advertising: the economic incentives to use it for credit ratings, insurance, law enforcement/profiling, and employment are simply too strong. And you can also bet that if your are a bit unusual or excentric (and who on Slashdot isn't?), you'll pop out of those statistical models, either as a bad risk to be avoided, or as a likely suspect to be examined, even if your excentricities are completely harmless.

    Allowing this kind of data collection to proceed is setting a dangerous precedent. I think the Europeans are right in essentially prohibiting any on-line data collection that isn't associated directly with a business transaction and requiring all data to be erased when the business transaction is over (airlines aren't even permitted to keep your meal preferences in their databases). Will the US have to learn the hard way to be careful when it comes to privacy?

  • the unit tracks what shows you like (through thumbs up and down buttons on your remote) and then tapes other shows it "thinks" you might be interested in while you are away

    Actually, I have a Tivo and that feature is pretty cool. Sometimes it records really bizarre stuff that doesn't make sense, but sometimes it catches a movie or show that I end up enjoying.

    Also, if you'd bother to read their privacy policy [tivo.com] you'd see that won't use this info without your consent.

    The scariest thing to me is that I suddenly seem to have a subscription for a year to Soap Opera Digest Magazine. I sure as hell don't watch soap operas, and can only guess that I got it after signing up for the Tivo service since they started to arrive shortly thereafter.

    Personally I think the Tivo (and the Replay) are great ideas and well worth the price. Actually I need to get myself a 30 hour one now.. 14 just doesn't cut it when you try to save up shows like the X-Files to watch in one sitting. :)
  • This will be great if they track time shifing.

    Also, if it had two tuners, it would be great.

    Humm, 50% of the replay users time shift this program.
    * 25% are watching buffy instead.
    *The other 75% are just culling the commercials.

    And what if users could make thier own schedule. Think it would give the network a fit?

    On thrusdays, they watch simpsons, that 70's, dharma and greg, and friends. On sunday they watch 60 minutes and x-files.

  • Yes, privacy problems. But, is that so bad? (Score:3)

    by Epitaph ( 13745 ) on Monday April 17, 2000 @09:56PM (#1126763) Homepage
    Nobody's really going to be able to stop companies who make these boxes from tracking what shows you watch, especially when they're constantly dialing up some other computer to exchange information. I don't really mind if those TV executives know what show I'm watching either, as long as I'm anonymous. When they start attaching a name and other info to your statistics, then it's a bit of a privacy violation, but anonymous statistics are a good thing. It DOES help TV executives sculpt their programming better. There's only a very small fraction of the population who are Neilsen families. And, getting free service out of it would be good too. :)

    Of course, as soon as IPv6 is implemented, super-high-quality MPEG4 internet-TV stations will take over, and TV will be a thing of the past, so enjoy it while it lasts. :)

    ---
    Epitaph
  • Currently, less than 25,000 households from only the top 48 markets get a "vote" in the ratings game.

    I agree with your general point that it would be great if everyone who wanted to contribute to the ratings measurements could. However, I think the science of random sampling is well understood enough by now that 25k people is probably more than adequate to determine with great accuracy the popularity of national programs. ~520/market isn't a bad average for determining local markets, either. Our newspaper regularly publishes polls on the front page which interviewed fewer than 800 people.

    I'd also suspect that they don't really want people who consciously *want* to participate because they would deliberately try to modify their behavior for a desired outcome.
  • We're already way too far down that road, and what makes it REALLY scary is that nobody seems to realize it.

    Think about how much of your life is tracked by a variety of large businesses.
  • Uh, yeah. The Tivo gets it's tv show line up updates by dialing in to a toll free number. so if your favorite show thatt you record gets pre-empted by a burt reynolds toupe-a-thon and Tivo doesnt get the updated info, guess what you get to watch?
  • In the UK, one of the conditions of having a Sky-Digital set top box is that you must connect it to a telephone line.
    The stipulation is that it must been connected for the first year you own it, then you can do what you like with the box. If you were quick and got one last year when the free box deal started, before interactive adverts and rudimentary click-tracking were introduced, you should be in a postion to disconnect it from the phone line if you so desire.
    Quite what information is transmitted back-to-base over this link is unclear, although it's a safe bet they're tracking their slave^W customers' viewing habits.
    There are strong rumours that they are monitoring habits, but all they learn from me is:-
    1. The phone line is connected to the internet most of the time.
    2. As soon as the adverts start, I channel hop for three minutes, then come back to the programming.
    Sky themselves are especially bad for putting adverts on at the same time each hour, and with a bit of practice, you can avoid most of them.
    Considering that they have also joined forces with TIVO or replay, it's not unreasonable to fast forward through adverts in anything you might record. I think the possibility of banner ads during programming might be more of a concern, since at least one of their channels is trying to look like a webpage [demon.co.uk], but there is always junkbuster [junkbuster.com] and I'm sure it will take account of these issues.
  • The official line (at least last time I heard) was that they used it to upload software updates. What I don't see is why do they need a decoder card when all the information could be uploaded through the phone line?
    IIRC, the box uses the phoneline to dial up and check the revision of the firmware, then pulls a new revision down from the satellite if it needs to, the phone connection times are pretty short. An itemised phone bill infers that it has only phoned home twice in the past three months voluntarily. I did check email on it, but then found I could get it via the web, so there isn't much point in using the digibox. I can pay 2p per minute for email via Sky, or nothing per minute for email via bt, which would you choose?
    I think the decoder card is for authentication purposes, if your key doesn't fit, you don't get to watch Stargate or any other American re-runs you might enjoy until you pay, then the 'allow viewing' signal is sent over the satellite. The phone line is just too slow to do this properly. Mind you, given the rapid response of the people at sky, it might be faster doing it this way...
  • Privacy is something that concerns me with the Guide + feature of some RCA (and JVC) TVs. If you don't know what this feature does read here [rca.com].
    Basically it gives you a TV guide on your TV so you can see what's on now, and for the next three days, you can set it up to automatically watch shows at certain times, and set up to watch it weekly, daily, once, etc. After a little bit of setting up, every night it downloads the information for the next three days. What I want to know is if it is uploading as well. I can't find any info about it on their website. I would think that the information it could gather would be quite interesting to the TV networks.
    It is an amazing feature that I could never live without now, I believe it will be a standard feature in HDTVs...but I'm not sure.
  • (after looking at the starsight webpage)
    Starsight looks like crap. Although I like the feature of it popping up Show information without bringing up the whole Guide Menu.
    It costs money. Sure only 50 bucks a year (extra ifyou have more than 1 TV), but that is still a PITA.
    If you want to see a crippled version, check out the Guide feature on JVC tvs. (but why would you want to see a crappy version?)
  • It gets the info about what suggestions to record by the thumbs up and the thumbs down you tell it. This is one of the advantages of the Tivo, in that this can help you find shows you never knew you might like. The more info you give it, the better it is at finding shows you'll enjoy. If it ever records a suggestion you don't like, give that show a thumbs down. Then the Tivo knows you don't like it.

    Also, it will never record a suggestion over something you've told it to record. The suggestions have the lowest possible priority and do not affect any recordings you've scheduled at all. Suggestions will be deleted automatically if room is needed for a scheduled recording. Basically, it tries to keep the drive full all the time.

    Still, if you don't like the system recording stuff you don't tell it to, turn the feature off. In the Setup, there's an option to disable automatic suggestion recording. Really though, the suggestions are one of the best parts of the Tivo.


    ---
  • Your statistics aren't quite right. Currently only about 25000 homes in the top 48 markets get the automated Nielsen system, the "People Meters". That is not the only way Nielsen collects viewing habits. They also send out thousands upon thousands of viewing journals. Each journal covers 1 week of time and the home is on its honor to accurately fill out the journal during the week.

    I just did this a few weeks ago. I'm sure the Nielsen people were very interested in a week long journal that had only listings for the Sci-Fi, Learning, and Discovery channels and only averaged about 2 hrs of viewing a day.

  • And for our next trick - programming your TV to watch your favourite programs when you're not even there!

    Ratings for geek programs through the closest TV equivalent of ballot-stuffing likely to be possible >;-)

    Or for a scarier picture: You come back home from a two-month holiday to discover your Sony AIBO has been watching dogfood commercials the entire time, and your TiVo box now shows nothing but Lassie reruns...
  • What do you actually think will happen to you if they did monitor what you watch?

    One word: Bork.

    Kaa
  • I suppose the usual slashdot paranoids will come out and start whinging about privacy. But who really cares if some 15-year old linux zealot is watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or Pokemon ? Does anyone care ?

    Two observations.

    First: geek profiling. Your 15-year old linux zealot is not very popular at school, is he? You know, the too-smart-for-his-own-good loner type? Of course he is a danger to society. He needs psychiatric counseling. Yeah, send him to re-education camps... oops, sorry, wrong country. Anyway, to determine if they should arrest him right away, the school asks for his viewing habits -- oh, God, look at the shows he is watching! He is clearly mentally unbalanced and must be "fixed".

    After you stop laughing, remember that listening to rock groups has been periodically brought up in court cases as "proof" of guilt or evidence of the defendant's moral degradation.

    Second: your linux zealot will grow up. Eventually he may become a person of note. He may want to run for public office, or he'll become a thorn in the side of some important people, or anyway somebody will need mud/blackmail material to be used against him. And remember, database records never go away. Anybody remembers Judge Bork? That was just a mild preview.


    Kaa
  • Here's a thread at the AVSForum with a ReplayTV person explaining it.

    http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/000810. html
  • I get my WebTV system and service for free. It's not because I'm allowing someone to track my viewing habits, though. It's because I agree to take a 5 minute survey once a week. In exchange, I got $10 cash just read the mail to consider the offer, the whole system including the (optional!) keyboard was free, as is the monthly service for at least 2 or 3 years, I think. In addition, for each survey I take, I have a chance to when a few different prices, valued in the $500-$1000 range.

    So I think it's a reasonable deal. :) Lately I've been answering surveys about what I think about politics and some others have been about cars and new potential coffee brand.

    I don't mind giving up what I think on these issues-- I like the idea that what I think effects some corporate decision making somewhere. The one t hing I don't like about the system is some the questions are skewed such that none of the answers represent what I think. For example, some of the political questions only let me choose between Democrats and Republicans-- no third parties were mentioned.

    Yes, the program is easy to opt out off, and no you can't volunteer for it, they have to choose you to keep it random.

    More information about the sponsoring company is available through http://www.intersurvey.com/ [intersurvey.com]

  • cool! now i can be watched while i surf the net at work and while i surf the TV at home.

    past the age of 18, no person will have to think for himself. as soon as he's hit the minimum number of choices to make the statistics work, all of his smart devices can choose for him. hooray!

    or better yet, it could be done by demographics - all 18-24 yr suburban white males will listen to Korn because that's what the sample group listens to.

    -c
  • I'd love customized commercials. No anti-smoking commercials (I'm a non-smoker). No feminine hygiene product commercials. No Pepsi commercials. No commercials for Larry King Live.

    Honestly, if you're choosing to vote by hitting the "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" button, what sort of invasion of privacy is it? Unless you /have/ to vote, it's no invasion at all - no different from an Open Source author /asking/ you to submit comments and feedback. The automatically taping of something is rather forward, but as long as it's smart enough to not fill all my hard drive space before I record RAW is WAR, who cares? It can be deleted, and the unit has already made the computations that I might also like WCW Nitro, even without recording it.

    Adam
  • Sorry, but I have to step in here. Buffy is /not only/ for kids (or guys watching that cute slayer), it has a great sense of humour in it. You don't have to like it, but there is a bit more to the show than just the fighting scenes or crappy F/X. For me, it's the same reason I watch the X-Files these days: dialogue between the main characters is fun, the rest is the same stuff we've already seen many times. All very subjective, of course...
  • Nielsen ratings, like most public opinion research, uses random samples of the total population. As long as these samples are sufficiently large, one can reliably extrapolate -- within a known margin of error -- to get a picture of the total population's behavior.

    So, can someone explain to me why all of us need our viewing habit tracked? If Nielsen wants to pay for a special verision of the Tivo/Replay software that will be compatible with their people meters, that's okay with me, because anyone who accepts a people meter is agreeing to monitoring of his behavior -- and presumaby is being compensated for it.

    But as for the rest of us, this sort of monitoring is not only intrusive but also unnecessary.
  • Similarily for soundtracks, product shots, guest stars, just about anything could be change to reflect your preferences.

    Sweeet, does this mean that when I watch it, it will be all nude?

    --

    Radio is already getting into this with their bit streaming forays. Tech allows them to specifically target different ads in their bit streams, while their over the air version all has the same ads. Of course, why anyone would want to listen to radio with commercials is beyond me, but there ya go.

    As her Goebbels well knew, tell someone a lie often enough and long enough and they will believe it, no matter how outrageous.

    The NEW version get's clothes BRIGHTER than EVER before! Improved RELIABILITY and SCALABILITY. Help protect Microsoft's FREEDOM to INNOVATE.

    --

  • I would like to add that this isn't too different from the access logs that a web server keeps. A webmaster knows exactly how many hits the server is taking, and from that can do a reasonable job of getting an actual count of people visiting the site. Mix into that voluntary demographic information, sex, age, etc., and the webmaster has a lot of info to go on.

    Nielsen goes farther, possibly too far, by gathering statistics for all shows, similar to gathering the "logs" from multiple sites. They also force demographic information from their participants.

    I would argue that with this Tivo, web sites, etc., that forced demographic info would not be required. Nielsen could grab it from voluntary sources and let statistics do the rest. Also, Nielsen would not need to track everyone across the channels or the net. Only those that are interested in participating with demographic info. The remainder of the population would be tallied as a simple "view".

  • One of the big problems with Max Headroom was Max Headroom. That is, the show was killed by the character.

    The reason that the show is tied to the character is that the two-hour pilot was written in order to create an origin for the character of Max Headroom. Other than that, the show could have avoided Max, been retitled "Edison Carter, Twenty Minutes Into the Future", and marketed as a real cyberpunk show.

    Instead, the first thing you know is that it's a show with Max Headroom in it, and this implies a lighthearted, silly sort of show. While there was certainly a lot of humor in the show, it was really cyberpunk: dark and brooding. Its target audience was probably seventeen year old males.

    But, since it was a "Max Headroom" show, its actual audience was nine year old kids. They couldn't appreciated it, and many of us who could appreciate it were turned off by the title character.

  • ...to this day, I still cannot find a external FireWire-to-TV device...

    You don't mean, like the Sony DVMC-DA1, DVMC-MS1, or DVMC-DA2? The original Sony DVMC-DA1 was a hit in the Mac marketplace when Firewire Macs and Final Cut Pro first came out. It's a pretty decent little solution for capturing analog video to DV for non-linear editing and putting it back on tape, though it's no true pro setup. Of course, if you're capturing off of TV, I doubt a $2000+ device is going to help the quality be any better than the DVMC-DA1.
  • It may be possible to determine, on your own, what TiVo really sends out. It runs Linux (2.1.42? that's what the README sez), and GNU tools were used in the development, so the source code for the modified kernel and the tools is available under the GPL [tivo.com]. It *might* be possible to figure out exactly what's being sent using the tools...or, you can tap the phone line, record what goes through, do some black magic and see what's being sent.

    On another subject...I think it's pretty cool that TiVo runs Linux, but doesn't trumpet their connection to the heavens like a lot of cash- and attention-starved operations are doing now. Also cool that they follow the GPL (I think).

    As for ReplayTV, I can't dig up anything on what software it runs, but I'm willing to bet it's all proprietary and closed-source, based on their Technical Overview page [replaytv.com]. It pretty much says they "can't reveal everything."

    C'est la vie, I suppose.
  • I can be one of the most paranoid people you'd ever meet, but this doesn't bother me.

    I watch the Simpsons. I bought the Replay TV to record the Simpsons. I don't care who knows it.

    My replay box is really cool BTW. No regrets on the purchase.
  • Reminds me of the TiVo story!

    The original story I replied to was about Replay, not TiVo. The post with the above misinformation got moderated up to a 5. Hopefully it gets moderated back down to equal this post so the correction can be seen by others scanning at a higher score level

    Sorry for being such a tithead... :-(

  • Watch Max Headroom (Score:5)

    by weave ( 48069 ) on Tuesday April 18, 2000 @03:44AM (#1126789) Journal
    Dudes, you HAVE to watch Max Headroom. A geek show from the mid 80s. Yeah, I know most of you nerds were like chasing 6 year olds around the playground back then, but this show was my favorite at the time.

    Anyway, it's set "20 minutes into the future" in a world where TV ratings are updated instantly on charts in the TV exec board rooms and they make quick decisions on the fly about what to do, yank, and manipulate to try to get those instant ratings up. The show's lead character is Edison Carter, a investigative news reporter who juggles reporting the truth over pressures from his bosses at "Network XXIII" to skew the stories to get the ratings up. Reminds me of the TiVo story!

    In this world, it's against the law to turn off your TV. Really great stuff. Once in a while, a network like A&E will run a marathon of the shows. I have most of them on tape from the 80s (and still fairly viewable).

    The show rocked, but got cancelled because it was playing against Miami Vice and Dallas and in the end, ironically, the poor ratings killed it in its first season.

  • "I'm ditching my TV when they switch off the analogue transmitters in 10 years time."

    I thought they were going to do that much sooner...either 2003 or 2006. No big loss for me, I only watch TV about 5 hours a week anyway.

    The cure for 1984 is 1917.

  • Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but in the US, the analogue TV xmitter shutdown will be mandatory. The freed-up frequencies will be allocated to some other purposes.

  • Hi all,

    Replay's representatives are active on the AV Science forum (www.avsforum.com) and have stated that this program is only for people already involved with the people meter system. Previously they were bypassing those homes with PTV devices. Replay customers will now be able to participate if they choose. You can see the forum threat at:<p>
    http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/000810. html<p>

    Also I must say that these devices are fantastic. I bought a ReplayTV a few weeks ago and now I'm hooked.. I never miss anything, and I'd say I watch more tv than I ever did before. It was money well spent, and the Replay folks are very accessible (through the forum) and quick to answer questions.
  • First of all, did anyone notice that http://www.replay.com/ [replay.com] doen't show up in Netscape (on Linux at least, I haven't yet checked it under Windows) only IE. You can go to http://www.replay.com/overview/techspecs.htm under Lynx though.

    The video is stored in MPEG II format and it stores 20 hours, so how big a harddrive is that? (I'm thinking a 20.4 Gig hard drive would be more than adequate. But I've never tried to record a bunch of MPEG-II's before.) Now I'm guessing that the video capture device they are using is of higher quality than say, PC TV studio (which we use here at work). Any thoughts on the best video capture device to use? (Preferably one that works under Linux.)

    I'm wondering what the serial port is for?

    I'd rather try to build one of these myself than buy theirs, after all it is just a specialized PC.

    Oh, and of course, my version will definitely have a CD reader/writer...

    Well, just some random meanderings, I don't have any money right now or time to start a project -_-.

  • Just don't plug it into a phone line. Unless the cable co.'s are xfering data over the coax, they can't grab your thumbs up/down.
    Cheers,

    Rick Kirkland
  • "While I can't verify that claim, I will note that they are vigilant in making it clear that they respect your privacy."

    Okay, I'll buy that for now. The problem that I see is more to do with what happens down the line when there's more than just one or two manufacturers in the game, when everybody must have a TIVO style homeplayer, when one particular brand is suddenly far cheaper than the rest ... because part of the deal is that the CONSUMER chooses to trade a little privacy for a cash saving ... and so it goes.

  • Fool, look in the dictionary. "HAMPSTER".


    One problem with gun control laws is that
    it limits the easy control of the growing
    asshole population.

  • What parts of 1984 does it remind you of? I can't think of many other than the obvious big brother thing. Could you please point out any other parallels? Thanks.

    JOhn
  • Does that mean I won't get any commercials? that would be a better service.. if I still have the same amount of commercials, it still sucks. Even if they all want me to buy a new computer, install window$ on it, and run office2000. If it gets rid of all commercials its better service. if it's just different, tailored shit instead of generic shit it's not a service for me, it's a service for the company.

    //rdj
  • [snip]Providing you, the consumer, with a quality service or product is becoming sidelined by trading you as a commodity [snip]

    It's never been about providing the consumer with any service or product. commercials and ads serve one master and one master only: the company providing the product or service. The whole idea is just to relieve you of as much cash as possible, and they will gladly relieve you of the burden of money. Tailored commercials are a service? sure.. but NOT a service for you, it's a service for the companies.

    //rdj

  • micro-ratings (Score:3)

    by theonetruekeebler ( 60888 ) on Tuesday April 18, 2000 @02:58AM (#1126800) Homepage Journal
    I got to be a Nielsen family one time. They gave me a diary and a fin and I wrote down what I watched and when. I did put one lie--I told them I had watched Homicide that week when in fact I had not. What I actually watched that night was porno, but anything to help keep good television alive and available for when I do want to watch it. That was such a good show. I'm glad it's in syndication now.

    Anyhoo--product placement, formerly just big business on the big screen, is rapidly encroaching on a small screen near you. Did you notice how all those snazzy flat screen monitors behind the nurses station on E.R. suddenly became Gateway brand snazzy flat screen monitors?

    For the most part, Nielsen currently only looks at what whole shows you watch. If Nielsen starts observing your viewing habits that closely, there's nothing to prevent them from knowing what scenes you watch most closely, pause, rewind, FFF on through, that sort of thing. After analyzing that data, Buffy will eventually consist entirely of vampires dying to reveal Pepsi machines right behind them, Buffy holding a Pepsi can right next to her breasts, and Buffy giving that redhead a long, meaningful sip out of her Pepsi.

    If we keep this up long enough, all we'll ever see on Buffy is the redhead licking Pepsi out of Buffy's navel.

    I have to say I have mixed feelings about this. I'll save a bundle on porno, to be sure, but I can pretty much kiss quality television goodbye.

    Creepy possibility #2: combine blue-screen technology, a huge demographics database, product placement, broadband and pointcasting all together to make sure that viewers from seven to thirteen see the redhead licking Kool-Aide out of the navel; from fourteen to twenty see Pepsi; from twenty-one to thirty it's Budweiser; from thirty to forty it's Guinness for men, or Amstel Light for women and all households which have purchased diet products in the last year; and from forty to fifty it's Scotch for households making over $100k/year, gin for $50k to $99k, and Bud for everything else. On pay-per view, you can watch the same show and instead of a flavored beverage, it's semen.

    Maybe I won't save on pornography after all.

    --

  • I'm not totally concerned at the possibility of my TV habits being tracked, as long as they have to ask my permission and it is anonymous. They could even have some limited demographic data (I'm sure they'd want it) and such information.
    I also wouldn't mind a "Oh man this blows.", "This is good.", "I'm not actually watching this, it's just on until something better comes on.", or "I'd watch this more if it wasn't on at such an inconvenient time." options on my remote, or something similar. While if they track people without their permission I would object to gathering such information, I don't think such ideas are all bad.
  • Having never owned one, I don't know what kind of seals or tamper switches they might contain, but the tech I spoke to seemed pretty adamant that you should "reaaaaally not open the box". For all I know, once you open the box it narcs on you to the server or refuses to operate. Philips head screws are not a security device, and if they intent was to prevent users from upgrading or enhancing their existing system, who knows what the did.

    It all goes to attitude. It would have cost mere dollars to put the drive in some kind of plastic, removable cage. But they wanted to milk profits by tempting consumers into a very profitable upgrade every 6-12 months when drive storage has doubled. That's just plain anti-consumer. The FireWire was the best thing going for the ReplayTV and they took it out, not for legal reasons like they would suggest (since there is hardware everywhere capable of capturing shows just like ReplayTV does) but because they saw the profit potential and decided it was worth screwing the customer.

    - JoeShmoe

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=-=-=-
  • The first generation units had a FireWire port on the back...which would have made ReplayTV the perfect FireWire capture device (to this day, I still cannot find a external FireWire-to-TV device, even though there are a crapload of USB ones).

    But guess what? Networks were concerned that someone would record show and then upload them onto the Internet. Guess what anyone under the sun can already do with existing capture cards? Duh. So one of the best features gets thrown out the window.

    Not to mention that the main reason TiVo et. al. suck is that they are not user-upgradeable. Do I really need to pay some company $300 to put in a freakin IDE hard drive for me? Do I really need to pay $300 for a hard drive that would cost me maybe $150? This is blatently ripping off the consumer. With an external port OF ANY KIND it should be possible to store an infinite amount of video to CD-R/RW, DVD-RAM, hard disk, ZIP, whatever. But no...by removing the port, you force the consumer to follow your official pricing schedule. True, you can crack it open and Ghost the image to a bigger drive, but there goes the warantee.

    ReplayTV almost had my business, but by choosing to be slave to the network interests, they have forever lost power users as their audience. I strongly encourage that anyone thinking about buying a replay TV go out and shop for a really high quality capture card instead.

    - JoeShmoe

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=-=-=-
  • The story is quite clear that Replay and Nielsen aren't negotiating to track system-wide usage statistics for Replay users but rather using Replay to track usage in homes that have specifically agreed to this with Nielsen as part of its People Meter rating system.

    "Initial testing will be done only in People Meter homes that use a Replay machine. There are currently 23,000 to 25,000 homes in the top 48 markets with electronic People Meters that indicate when the TV is on, what channel it's on and who is watching.

    Once the technology is developed to track the viewing habits of people with these time-shifting machines and testing is done, Nielsen will work with programmers and advertisers to determine how to report it in context."

    As the story notes, 1 million people already willingly tell Nielsen exactly what they watch, and Nielsen simply wants to expand its offerings so it can tell advertisers what those homes are watching on their TiVo and Replay machines as well as Internet connections.

    Don't like it? Simple, don't agree to be part of Nielsen's tracking system.

    Sheesh

  • Quite what information is transmitted back-to-base over this link is unclear, although it's a safe bet they're tracking their slave^W customers' viewing habits.

    Well, actually the point of it is supposed to be for the E-mail and interactive stuff IIRC, since you can't upload over the satellite dish. Of course, they might be sending stuff over it apart from that, but our Digibox was disconnected from the phone for long periods at a time without a problem...

  • If this system is going to be so clever to track your viewing time habits, it will only mean that advertising will get added systematically until it decreases enough in popularity to become on par with other viewing times. This will contribure to the homogeneousness of the programming.

    Don't you think?

  • This would be GOOD *if* done right... (Score:5)

    by Sir_Winston ( 107378 ) on Monday April 17, 2000 @10:19PM (#1126822)
    Nielsen ratings are directly used to determine what programs stay on TV and what programs don't. Frankly, I think it would be great if the insipidly backwards, 1950s-style Nielsen Ratings system were updated to take into account today's technology.

    As long as all the "tracking features" are disclosed up-front, this is a great advance. I'd buy one of these units just to get my "vote" for the shows I love a chance to be heard. As it is, so few "Nielsen Families" exist that I seriously question the integrity of the very ratings system which determines what programs I get to watch--low ratings, as you know, mean a show will get the axe. Currently, less than 25,000 households from only the top 48 markets get a "vote" in the ratings game.

    This would be a first step towards perhaps changing that limited, closed, backwards system. I'm surprised that Nielsen hasn't gotten together with TV manufacturers to work out a deal--there would be even greater possibilities for revolutionizing the system if that were to happen.

    This is just a small first step--only ReplayTV users, as the article says, in already-established Nielsen families, are going to have their usage habits tracked. But imagine the possibilities this could lead to, if the Nielsen people are encouraged:

    Imagine a world in which your ReplayTV or TiVo, or even your television set, had a built-in modem and a small chipset designed to record your program choices and upload them once a week. You could choose whether to plug in your modem or not, so no privacy issues would be involved--consumers would boycott a "mandatory" feature like that, but welcome a voluntary one. Then, your viewing choices would have the chance to affect what shows stay on the air and which get nixed, whereas now your viewing habits have no value whatsoever since you're not a Nielsen family. I much prefer this model, than having a scant few families (relatively speaking) which supposedly represent some bonehead's idea of a statistical sampling, deciding which shows survive. I miss *My So-Called Life* and *Freaks and Geeks*, dammit! :-)

  • Re:the scariest part. . . (Score:4)

    by B'Trey ( 111263 ) on Monday April 17, 2000 @11:04PM (#1126824)
    IF it only transmits the info you request it to send (by voting Thumbs [Up/Down]), it's not a big deal. That's a big "IF".

    It would be quite easy for this thing to record and transmit everything from which TV shows you watch to which commercials you fast forward through. And since you have an account with them, this info isn't anonymous; it's tied directly to you.

    Also, even if the initial offering only transmits requested info, this is a computer. Updating it to transmit additional info is likely a small download in the middle of the night while you're snuggled trustingly in your bed.

    Also, I would HATE customized commercials. There's an IBM (I think) commercial which shows a bunch of people sitting around talking about getting inappropriate advertisements. An apartment dweller gets ads for replacement windows; a cat owner gets dog food ads, etc. As they're talking, they're being watched by suits through one-way glass. The consumers turn towards the glass and yell something like "Hey! Isn't anybody listening?!" Then there's a blurb about software which can help you identify your custormer and maintain info on them. The song playing in the back ground is "Getting To Know You."

    I though this was one of the most chilling things I'd ever seen. I don't want some advertisement agency watching what I do, what I own, what I buy. I don't want IBM or any other company to get to know me. I don't want some faceless entity, whether it's a person or a computer program, choosing which commercials I should watch. I don't want DoubleClick keeping track of which web pages I visit. Just stay the fsck out of my life!

  • Re:the scariest part. . . (Score:5)

    by B'Trey ( 111263 ) on Monday April 17, 2000 @11:45PM (#1126825)
    There's a review [arstechnica.com] on Ars Technica [arstechnica.com] about the TiVo. I trust it's considered "fair use" to quote a paragraph:

    "Now, at this point I should say something about privacy. TiVo guarantees that they neither monitor nor report your TV watching habits and preferences. All taste matching is reportedly done on your local machine, and no such data is sent back to TiVo. While I can't verify that claim, I will note that they are vigilant in making it clear that they respect your privacy."

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Does this work both ways? I think we should tell these people everything they want to know about us, after all this is the hackers way. It seems unfair that some companies should have to pay for this information, especially since there is no guarantee that its accurate, because it is obtained in rather a roundabout way.

    In return, I want to know absolutely everything about everyone who works for or owns the company, source code for all software they use, detailed diagrams of all hardware, and details on how to build my own version.

    Does this sound fair?
  • This is an honest question (don't just moderate me down simply because I disagree with the common slashdot opinion on privacy): What do you actually think will happen to you if they did monitor what you watch? Custom advertising tailored to what seems to be your interest? Is that really a bad thing? I don't know about your, but I personally could do without seeing all those feminine hygene advertisements :). Most of the arguments I seem to see on here are basically "well... it's the principle of the thing ...". I hardly *ever* see anyone mention the actually possible "horrible" consequences of someone invading your privacy in such a seemingly trivial way. Right now i am envisioning someone responding with something like "Well.. what happens when the government starts flagging people who watch a lot of violent shows?" ... but really, millions of people watch violent shows on tv - what are the chances the government is going to do this, let alone start singling people out (they don't have the resources to monitor millions of people's tv viewing habbits). Now.. ever if they DID start singling people out, what do you think they're going to do? Keep a close eye on you and if you commit some sort of crime arrest you? That would hardly seem like a problem to me (yeah.. then you say "but other people commit crimes too and have a less chance of getting caught cause they're not monitored" -- but that's just crazy-talk ... doesn't mean it's unfair that you got caught, it means our policing system needs to be improved so those other people are caught too). Anyhoo.. just some of my ranting.. maybe someone can change my mind or something.
  • i was lucky (?) enough to catch an infommercial for one of the brands of these (tivo i believe) some late night and it scared the life out of me when they mentioned the "feature" where the unit tracks what shows you like (through thumbs up and down buttons on your remote) and then tapes other shows it "thinks" you might be interested in while you are away. . .that just takes it too many steps down the road to 1984 if you ask me.

  • the future: (Score:5)

    by pe1rxq ( 141710 ) on Monday April 17, 2000 @09:56PM (#1126847) Homepage Journal
    ReplayTV 9000

    User: Hmmm lets watch something different tonight...... Ahh channel 'whatever' is doing a report about the microsoft case.

    Sound of user zapping with remote

    ReplayTV9000: I'm sorry user I can't do that.

    Sound of user trying it again

    ReplayTV9000: I'm sorry user I can't do that. You have tried to watch anti-microsoft propaganda twice, this has been reported to Emporer Gates. Prepare to be terminated.


    Grtz, Jeroen

  • Re:This YRO crap is getting out of hand. (Score:3)

    by Fas Attarac ( 163334 ) on Tuesday April 18, 2000 @07:26AM (#1126852)
    And for those thinking of commenting about how Replay is intending to use this information to figure out what other shows you might be interested in, this is simply a local extension to the technology. I mean if the system's already built to keep track of some of the things you like to watch, even if it doesn't relay this information, it's only natural to think about using it for your own entertainment.

    If you're really worried about the evil set-top boxes sending details about the porn you watch, why don't you just keep from plugging it into the phone line?

    Again, this is not evil Big Brother tracking technology here. It's pretty clear that it's being done on a volunteer basis.

  • Re:You get tracked, so what? Well... (Score:4)

    by Fas Attarac ( 163334 ) on Tuesday April 18, 2000 @07:10AM (#1126853)
    Did you even read the article? Do you have any idea who Nielson is?

    They're talking about adapting their hardware/software so that VOLUNTEERS are able to more accurately participate in the Nielson ratings programs. There's no way in hell they're going to get these surruptitiously installed and relaying data against your wishes. Think about it. How are they going to do this? Do you really think a Replay device that dials up and reports your every TV/commercial habit every night will SELL?

    They usually approach potential volunteers to help out with the ratings system and offer them some sort of minor compensation.

    Personally, I think it's damn cool, because I'm effectively representing like 100,000 viewers, so the shows *I* like have a better chance of staying around if I'm careful to watch it religiously.

    The only place in this article that remotely approached the idea of selling this information to advertisers was talking about a related TiVo deal a while back, and while we certainly need to be careful this is done correctly, respecting our privacy, there's been absolutely no indication that they intend on violating it in the first place.

  • This YRO crap is getting out of hand. (Score:4)

    by Fas Attarac ( 163334 ) on Tuesday April 18, 2000 @07:18AM (#1126854)
    Do you people even know who Nielson is?

    They are a company that takes volunteers and asks them to report on their TV watching habits. Some times this takes the form of transient "diaries", other times it's in the form of a permanent "box". This information is used to determine what a complete cross-section of America is watching at any given time.

    The only thing they're doing in this case is working with Replay to figure out a way to adapt this system for their time-delayed product, where real-time ratings don't quite mean as much. At the moment, they're just ignoring the Replay market, but as this has the potential to affect the way we watch TV, and as shows we might ordinarily miss are now within our viewing abilities, it affects the show's ratings as well.

    This is a typical YRO article. Someone shouts "tracking habits!" and Slashdot authors pick it up, frothing at the mouth.

    Come on, people, do you really think a VCR-like device is going to SELL when it dials up every night and reports your every TV watching habit? This is utter BULLSHIT, and I'm quite sick of it. There is certainly a privacy angle to this, but I would THINK that anybody volunteering to report on the shows they watch would be aware of these issues in the first place.

    PLEASE do a bit of research on your own, and DO NOT take the word of these YRO "authors" as gospel. They are quite frequently WRONG in their assessment of the situation, in many cases negligently so.

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