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Princess Mononoke DVD: No Japanese 133

Posted by emmett from the neil-gaiman dept.
Robotech_Master writes: "Nausicaa-L list-owner Michael Johnson spoke to Buena Vista and confirmed it...due to fears of reverse-importing and piracy, the August 29 Princess Mononoke DVD will have English and French audio, but no Japanese. I've written an article summarizing the situation and what concerned fans can do about it." Update by Emmett: The link is currently busted (again), but there are some informative posts in the comments regarding this. After seeing Corn Pone films like 'BAD,' I don't watch dubbed anime. Even though I've seen Princess Mononoke in the theater, I'd rather watch it in Japanese. Battle on, Otaku.
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Princess Mononoke DVD: No Japanese More

Princess Mononoke DVD: No Japanese

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  • The sad fact is that while DVDs (having the ability to have multiple soundtracks) could be an excellent resource for people learning foreign languages, region encoding means that most languages will be unavailable to the user. For example, in North America, English, French, and Spanish are generally the only soundtracks (and even the only subtitles) available.
  • Hence their reluctance to release a DVD with a Japanese track abroad which would then instantly become a hot commodity in Japan and be re-imported by the black market.

    Begs a couple of questions though:

    1) The US version will be Region 1. I don't think too many Japanese have Region 1-capable players. Some, but the mass market will buy the regular-store Region 2 player.

    2) Why the hell have they waited this long to release Ghibli's films on DVD anyway?

    We have everything they've released on VHS up to now. (The Ghibli ga Ippai Collection) All Japanese and only Japanese. Any dub is NEVER going to do justice to the talents of the original voice actors.
  • I don't get it. Why don't they just delay the American release until the same time they release it in Japan? I would think the ability to release a "quality" version (with Japanese track) would outweigh any loss due to the later release.
  • 85p/litre? Thanks for giving me something else to celebrate today! Last time I was in the UK was a couple of years ago, so my price fix was out of date.

  • This is just plain stupid. This is almost as bad as when "Life is Beautiful" was re-released with English dubbing. As long as the subtitles are legible and well timed, what is the problem??? Are people in the US too lazy to do a bit of reading when they go to the movies?? For well subtitled movies, I often almost completely forget that I am reading the dialog.

    I think that Disney and a few other groups automatically assume cartoon==for kids, and since younger kids can't read, the film should be dubbed. But "Princess Mononoke" and "Life is Beautiful" are not for children and definately not for children to young to read.

    Rant over and out.

  • Sorry if I'm in the dark on this, but why would you have to worry about bacteriological infetcion by handling a dubbed disc? I'm presuming this is a joke about the bad quality of dubbed anime, in which case, what the heck is "Macekbacter?"

  • Perhaps you don't. In socialism, the government owns or control certain industries, and not other. Our government does control much of the commerce in the nation to some extent. Healthcare, research, transportation, logging are all examples of industries that the government dictates some form of price control or standardization. Our government is partiallly socialist, our economy mostly capitalist. Your efforts to relate an economic system to a political one shows how little grasp you have on this concept.
  • This is almost as bad as when "Life is Beautiful" was re-released with English dubbing.

    I've only seen it that way. But this is more stupid than that. DVD allows multiple languages, and optional subtitles. Since they (presumably) have subtitles anyway, and they certainly found room for an extra language track, it wouldn't have caused a problem to add Japanese. And yeah, I'm impressed. There's nothing like watching a Ja[anese film in French with english subtitles.

    There are after all some people who like dubbing. And since its possible to cater for both, they should. Copyright really should cary some responsibilities with it.
  • As a resident of one of the few cities that the dubbed Mononoke was released, and as one of the few residents of that city who owns a fansubbed version, I have to wonder the logic behind this move. While it is true that many less people will pirate versions of this DVD, I suspect that will be because nobody will want it in the first place. The English dubbing was awful (Billy Bob Thorton? Even Gillian Anderson sucked), and since I'm visiting France right now, and I, over the last few days, have experienced the horror of French dubbing, I can't see why anyone would buy this in the first place in order to pirate it.
  • A partial solution (for the majority that don't understand Japanese): have an English subtitle track with the Neil Gaiman version, and have another English subtitle track with a literally translated version. And if it really annoys you to hear the Neil Gaiman English audio with subtitles that don't match, switch to the French audio track :) (okay, perhaps not terribly practical, but I honestly wouldn't mind a setup like that).

    And FWIW, I think Gaiman did an excellent job with the English version.

  • The whole region code thingy is braindead anyway. Why shouldn't I be able to buy a movie in the US and watch it here in the Netherlands? I mean, I could buy books, tapes, CD-ROMS, basically anything else in the US and use it here, so why not DVDs?

    The whole napster thingy is basically the same issue: it's all about companies who want to squeeze as much money out of the public at large as possible with no regard whatsoever for the artists, nor for the public. They're just a middle man, and they know that, so they're fighting as best they can to ensure they can remain the middle man for all eternity. The fact that they're starting to fight so extremely dirty means they're quite desperate, which you could ofcourse also see as a good sign :)

    Things always get worse before they get better...


    )O(
    the Gods have a sense of humour,
  • core market? Anime? What the bllodyfckinghell are you talking about? Buena Vista is the R-Rated arm of Disney and one of the most powerful organizations in Hollywood. The core market is entire world. They've doubtlessly distributed most of your favorite films. Except the cosplay pr0n.

    :)Fudboy
  • Is a solid technological solution. I ran across a piece of software that's supposed to take mpeg-2 data streams (decrypted using DeCSS) and allow you to translate language tracks in real time. I'm too busy to look up the web site, but it was called the Content Library Internet Translator for Online and Realtime Interpolation of Sound. Do a google search for the acronym, it should be near the top.
    --Shoeboy
  • The grammar nazi's opinion [m-w.com]:

    export
    1 : to carry away : REMOVE
    2 : to carry or send (as a commodity) to some other place (as another country)

    import
    2 : to bring from a foreign or external source; especially : to bring (as merchandise) into a place or country from another country

    reverse (as adjective)
    1 a : opposite or contrary to a previous or normal condition b : having the back presented to the observer or opponent
    3 : acting, operating, or arranged in a manner contrary to the usual
    4 : effecting reverse movement

    Grammar nazi's conclusions:
    The above 3 meanings for reverse, as applied to import are equivalent to at least one export meaning. To answer zztzed's question: yes, indubitably

  • Re:Just goes to show you... (Score:5)

    by RichardtheSmith ( 157470 ) on Saturday July 01, 2000 @05:42PM (#963318)
    The problem is that Princess Mononoke was a HUGE hit in Japan - the highest grossing domestic film in that country's history. A "good" anime-on-DVD allows people to view it either dubbed, subbed, or neither - in other words just plain Japanese.

    Since there has NOT been a Japanese-language, region-2 DVD of PM for the Japanese market, the release of a US (region 1) DVD which can be enjoyed in all three ways I just described is problematic to the people who will eventually distribute the PM R2 DVD in Japan.

    Here in the US PM only did small art-house-type business - less that $30 million IIRC. So it comes down to pissing off a relatively small market of anime fans, or risking the revenue that will be provided when the most popular domestic film in Japanese history makes it to DVD in its home country.

    Then there's the other issue - the fact that the powers-that-be in Japan (Buena Vista Japan to be specific) don't think they can trust the region encoding mechanism to enforce international market segmentation. This is doubly ironic, since the main reason for that nasty MPAA-DeCSS legal fight is (presumably) the DVD industry asserting its rights against people who want to do things like unraveling region encoding.

    Hopefully, this is just going to be a Princess Mononoke thing. I think the main thing people are on about (go look at Ain't It Cool News [aint-it-cool-news.com] for an example) is that this is going to affect all the other Miyazaki titles (Kiki's Delivery Service, My Neighbor Totoro, Laputa/Castle in the Sky), and NONE of them will get the "proper" DVD treatment (look at "Grave of the Firefiles" for an example of a well-done anime-on-DVD).

  • The same thing seems to be going on with kung-fu DVD's; the Jet Li movies My Father is a Hero (the title was changed to The Enforcer for some reason in the US DVD release) and Fist of Legend were released here on DVD with no Chinese.

    The dubbing was pretty good in them -- and it was excellent for the Disney release of Mononoke Hime, but the fact is still that dubbing just plain sucks. Alas.

    Also, I believe there's a fan-subbed version of Mononoke Hime in RM format floating around the net somewhere.

  • The distribution deal says the no changes can be made to the films except for dubbing. Not even music, though a natural exception would be song lyrics. This didn't prevent Miramax from nagging continuously the Japanese for cuts on the violence and even on some sound effects deemed too fightning(!) They should have understand that this was not a film for young children.
  • how stupid some people can be. piracy and copying and crap like that isn't going to be stopped cause of removing a language. i don't get it. Whats that sapposed to do? or am i missing something here?

  • Does Disney even own the DVD rights in Japan?

    Ok, so this is what I have learned from my adventures with the DeCSS case. Disney is a big part of the MPAA (Motion Picture Association of America) which includes all the big movie companies (Ex: Time Warner, 20th Century Fox, Paramount... etc). One of the MPAA's jobs is to try and stop piracy of videos, dvd's, or what have you.

    For this reason, the MPAA is in kahoots with the DVD-CCA (DVD-Copy-Contol-Association). They came up with the CSS (Contents Scrambling System) encryption scheme which allowed them to make DVD's only playable in certian regions at certian times.

    That's part of the reason why they are trying to stop the spread of DeCSS (Which is futile), because it threatens their control of the global movie industry.

    If you are interested you can download DeCSS here [angelfire.com], or learn more about the case at 2600 [2600.com] and opendvd.org [opendvd.org]
    ...I hope that link doesn't get /. in too much trouble :)

  • These stupid people don't realize that there will be NO security standard of any sort. Sooner or later these losers will realize that DVD encryption will fail. Its either that or how Hollywood realizes that in the future everyone won't go to the movies to watch movies, they'd rather download them on their personal T3's....
  • Most of the Region I anime on DVD I buy is dual-language (even including titles with popular american dubs like Sailor Moon).

    I belive Princess Mononoke is odd in this respect. This is probably enough to make me and others not want to buy the disc (the english voice acting is above average on it, though).
  • My favorite search engine [google.com] didn't turn up any results [google.com] for "clitfoarios". Which engine do you use, Shoeboy?
  • What's the big deal? The article seems to be out of commission right this second, so I'm admittedly operating out of cluelessness here, but I don't see what the issue is. The only problematic scenario that I can envision is that the movie was released here with English-subtitled Japanese audio. Is that the case? If not, what's so bad about not being able to listen to the movie in Japanese? It seems like there might be better causes to direct our energies toward. But if someone could fill me in, I'd be appreciative.
  • Because just about every Anime DVD you come accross WILL have the original Japanese track intact, for those who dislike the all too common practice of the English rescript totally butchering the original script.

    Of course, Disney has to be different, and cut away the Japanese track.

    *Sigh* The mouse needs to be kept away from anime at all costs.


  • Bollocks. I don't know where you're getting your info from, but I've never seen a pirate movie CD anywhere in Japan. Perhaps you're thinking of the CDs of pirated software sold on the street in Akihabara?
  • I'm just wondering why your so mad about not having it in the japanse language? Are you fluent in japanese? Just curious.
  • Well, sure, it's sad and shouldn't be this way, but I'm not sure it's useless. You can't get much better protection against Japanese piracy than not actually releasing it in Japanese. It's that whole English-to-Japanese encryption system that'll get people :)

    And while most Japanese people know some English, the vast majority cannot understand fast-paced conversation in movies.
  • I saw both, and it looked to me as though Disney didn't cut so much as a single frame.

    This is probably why they didn't have a big advertising campaign for PM, now that I think about it. The movie would have been too controversial for their taste. But the controversy would have been even worse if they'd cut material, so, cowards that they are, they had no choice but to forego advertising.
  • Honest question: what have you seen? There is crappy anime out there. A lot of crappy anime. But, as with any medium, there are also some true gems.

    The reason many of us like anime, I believe, is that these gems are more numerous than in other mediums. Furthermore, the people who create anime have more artisticf freedom than filmmakers in the US, both because they seem remarkably free of the corporatist pop culture we find here and the fact that they don't have a religious right to smack them upside the head if they don't do something which fits in said group's narrow definition of morality, which they would want to enforce on others.

    Several times in the past I've spoken about how the US is the only nation in the world which guarantees free speech. I hold to that statement. But the more I look at the situation, there are few nations who need that guarantee more than the US. Think about it: freedom of speech (criticism on established groups), freedom of religion (need I say more), freedom of the press (or, to put it in a more modern light, the media), and freedom of assembly (almost any non-religious, non-corporate group nowadays). We have extremely powerful groups here in the US who would take that all away, groups who are, if not absent, at least much weaker elsewhere. So powerful, in fact, that really the only thing that stops these groups from having their way with our rights is a 220-year-old document (they don't have the majority required to fairly influence politics, but they do have the influence to do it anyway). While we may have the freest speech of any nation that purports to have it, that right is also in more danger in the US than in any other nation which currently claims to have it.
  • I have seen posters of the English version of Mononoke Hime in Japan, and think it either was played here or will be here on tapes. (someone else please provide better info).

    Is it possible that the dubbed version could be available here in Japan on DVD without the Japanese version being available?

    If a major film is released on DVD must the security be able to handle any forseeable development of deCss style systems in the medium term?
  • You might not want to use US gas in a UK car. Not only could it cause you to swerve unavoidably right when going through the roundabouts, but UK petrol is 91 octane, whereas "regular" US gas is 85-87 octane. Since US engine tend to be larger displacement, we use a lower compression to get the same horsepower than the smaller engines used in the UK. You put US gas in a high-compression UK engine and it'll knock like a door-to-door saleman. You'd have to buy Premium gas, which is more expensive (but at ~US$1.799/USgal here in Kansas, still a damn sight better than UK60p/litre.)
  • They did not cut the video at all. Indeed this (no cuts) was one of the stipulations of the sale of Miyazaki's (worldwide, including Japan!) rights to your friend and mine, DisneyCo.

    I have seen not a fan-sub, but the japanese Laserdisc release (my flatmate happened to be in Japan on the date of it's release. He tells me that the Japanese Otaku don't seem to camp out before the stores open to make sure they get their copies, so he wound up with one of the first Mononoke Hime LD's sold in the world.) I don't know Japanese, but I didn't notice any scenes go away (I would have been more likely to notice better if I had watched them in the other order, though).

    The reason the Disney version isn't total ass is that they got Neil Gaiman (of Sandman fame) to head up the dubbing process. (Initially he refused, until he realized that that just meant someone else would do it, possible someone who didn't care as much.) The biggest problem with the translation is Disney's fallacious belief that Big-Name-Actors = good voice actors.

    Anyways enough rambling.

  • oh, and let me just finally add - that Princess Mononoke was not officially distributed by Disney, but by another company in the big corporate congolmerate, Mirimax. If they put the Disney name on it, nothing they could say or do would stop people from thinking it's a movie for small children, which it is not.
  • It's very weird with media. I can buy british import CD's cheaper than Brits can. I think the big reason is that either there are a lot of import tarrifs in britain (american products also cost a lot!), or the importers are few and get greedy ("I can get £17 for this CD?! Allright!")

    But the fact of the matter is that almost everywhere on the planet (with the notable exception of countries with weak or unenforced copyright laws) entertainment costs 150-200% of what they do in the United States and Canada.
  • Well, Disney is releasing it through their Miramax and Buena Vista labels, which have somewhat less to do with Disney, and aren't immediately recognizeable (to most people) as Disney brands.
    --
  • I think it should be noted that the person who submitted the story is getting paid per-hit for that article he wrote. What better way to make some quick cash than by getting his story slashdotted?

    A better URL would've been nausicaa.net's story at http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=i nd0006d&L=nausicaa&P=11579

    If only this article had been posted in time to submit the mini 'petition' to BVHV, 1000 is nice, but just think how many Slashdot could've provided. :)
  • They all bought the Apex AD-600A region selectable player. That or a hacked software version for the computer.
  • Before you go drafting your protest e-mails, note that his deadline for submission was yesterday.
  • That was Chinese actually ! ciaox
  • Studio Ghibli only let Disney distribute their films on the condition that it be un-edited. Any cuts are imagined.
  • I remember reading that Disney wanted to cut the movie to get it down to PG, but Miyazaki didn't let them touch a frame.

    I saw the Disney version in the theatre, and didn't notice any glaring inconsistancies or jumps in the plot. On a side note, seeing a Miyazaki flick on the big screen is absolutely amazing. I highly recommend it to anyone who has the opportunity.
  • Which converts to about £16 (ish, I dont have the latest exchange rates to hand). Compare that with internet prices (on most places I go looking for DVD's on the net I useually find them for around $15 a pop) and its easy to see that in the high street, people in the UK are paying way over the odds.

    Theres actually a name for it btw (for all you merkins who are interested), its called 'rip-off britain'.

    Nick
  • Always subbed.

    So why, if foreign films are always shown in their native language would BV Japan not want their own product shown in its native language?

    The above is rhetorical. Beuna Vista Japan asked for it, the REAL reasons known only to them.

    Wonder if my ex-girlfriend's sister still works at BV Japan?

  • Given a choice between someone with the ability of , say, Anthony Hopkins, speaking in a language I didn't understand, and someone with the ability of, say, Keanu Reaves, speaking in a language I did understand, I'd choose the former any day. (For example, compare the dubbed and subbed releases of Utena.)
    -----------
  • I think we all know that region-free, macrovision-free DVD players are a dime a dozen. I have three of them, an Apex, a modified Pioneer and a modified Philips. As for not being able to purchase things that aren't sold in your country, please explain why there is a Playstation 2 in my Pennsylvanian abode, or why so many of my DVDs have region numbers other than 1.
    ----------------------------
  • For well subtitled movies, I often almost completely forget that I am reading the dialog.

    Often when I watch subtitled movies, I start to look away from the subtitles and look more at what's going on. Then, after several minutes, I realize that I have no idea what anybody is saying.
  • ... or maybe they kept their recalled PS2s. =)
  • Buena Vista handles distribution of Ghibli's films in Japan and North America. It was BV Japan that requested BVHV to not include the Japanese track. While the logical answer is to release a DVD in Japan as well, they'd still be worried because DVDs are so expensive in Japan that it would be cheaper to import it. (I hear the PS2 is the cheapest DVD player in Japan!)

  • In Japan, you'd pay anywhere from $US40 (your standard reissue of an old movie) to $US90 (The Matrix box edition).

    This is the direct result of the CSS/region coding bullshit.

  • The Apex isn't available in Japan.
    • As I understand it, it is Buena Vista that is keeping the Japanese track out of the U.S. release to protect potential Japan sales. Does Disney even own the DVD rights in Japan? Shouldn't any Japanese DVD release belong to Studio Ghibli?
    • Mononoke Hime has been out on laserdisc in Japan for quite some time now. Would an American DVD really make much more of an impact in piracy?
    • Isn't this really a ploy by Disney to get die-hard fans to buy the 8/29 DVD AND some future "full featured" DVD? Nah...(cough, cough, George Lucas, cough, cough, Phantom Menace only on VHS? cough, cough).

    ....

  • Here's what you do... (Score:3)

    by Megane ( 129182 ) on Saturday July 01, 2000 @06:34PM (#963356)
    First, take one dub-only Mononoke DVD and DeCSS it. Be sure to handle the disc with latex gloves, to avoid a Macekbacter infection. (It gives you the worst kind of strep throat, and you sound. like. you're. reading. everything. from. a. book.)

    Then get an import copy of the Mononoke LD. Rip its AC-3 SPDIF data stream using an AC-3 RF demodulator and a PCI AC-3 input card (no, I don't know where to get such a beast).

    Then, using a DVD authoring suite (available from the usual 0day wAr3z sites), merge in the new AC-3 audio track. Don't forget to strip region coding and clear the Macrovision flag. (You're not licenced to set the Macrovision flag, are you? Of course not!) Mix liberally, then bake at 350 degrees for 30 minutes. No, wait, that was the cake recipe.

    Then simply re-write a DVD-R with the new .VOB files. Upload to your favorite high-bandwidth 0day m0v13z site. Presto, a release with Japanese audio!

  • Re:Disney cut material anyway - "me too, post" (Score:5)

    by Transition Cat ( 115549 ) on Saturday July 01, 2000 @06:42PM (#963357)
    I've seen both versions. No cuts at all. Disney/Ghibli contract forbids any cuts. However,
    • Disney did change Kaya into Ashitaka's sister.
    • Some music was replaced with (still pretty good) English versions.
    • San's wolf-mother, Moro, was voiced by a male actor in the original (by Gillian Anderson in the dub).
    • Some lines were awkwardly translated (eg "I didn't know the Forest God made the flowers grow"), probably to fit lip synch.

    ....

  • Disney's Jet Li & Jackie Chan dub without original language DVDs were done not for any reasons of importation difficulty--they were done because Disney didn't bother to buy the rights for these movies. They apparently didn't feel they needed to; they were doing an English dub anyway, right?

    I think the things Neale Stephenson says about Disney and Culture in In the Beginning Was the Command Line [cryptonomicon.com] are absolutely dead on.
    --

  • When I say "rights" I mean the rights to include the original Cantonese audio track on their DVD. (Manga Video's Devilman had a similar problem.)
    --
  • Could you please expand on this issue?
  • Buena Vista bought the rights to distribute Ghibli stuff worldwide--including in Japan. As I understand it, Ghibli didn't really have the resources to go into en masse releases; they're a production studio, not a distribution studio. Disney/Buena Vista, however, had the necessary economy of scale, and agreed to commit not to cut anything without Miyazaki-san's sayso.
    --
  • C'mon Disney, DVD consortium... I'm going to import the region 2 Mononoke DVD when it's released into Region one and watch it on my hacked region free player. I SPIT on the region coding scheme. I'm LAUGHING at your powerlessness. I will incite others to do the same. What are you going to do? The answer is nothing because you are all a bunch of cowards.
  • "So why do you like Applejacks?" "We just do, okay?"

    Well, actually it's a little more involved than that. It's largely a matter of personal preference, and goes back to the old "dub vs. sub" debate that was spawned when the first anime fansubber discovered what you could do with a genlock and the first anime importers started releasing dubs. You can't really get much of a rational answer when you ask someone about that--at least, not the kind of answer that could convince someone who believed the other way.

    But in another sense, it comes down to just plain having the choice. Some people didn't like the English dub, but even those people who liked the English dub as well as or better than the Japanese version might still like the option to compare the voice acting and changes to story from one version to the other.

    Hope that clears things up.
    --

  • The article link is working again, and I just checked on it...it's up to 820 hits. Which means that so far $82.00 is going to go to Nausicaa.net whenever I get paid...and the weekend isn't over yet!

    Thanks, everyone who's read it, and everyone who's going to. This is harnessing the Slashdot Effect for good. :)
    --

  • US Octane ratings are the average of the Research Octane Number (RON) and the Manufacturers Octane Number (MON). I don't fully understand the difference, but in general the RON is 2-3 points higher than the average number you see at the pump. In Europe, they only use the RON, so their 91 octane is the equivalent our mid-grade 89 octane. (I've never seen anything lower than 87 at the pump here, but I'm in CA)
  • But the contract between Ghibli and Disney says that Disney are not allowed to make any changes eg cuts,

    ps
    I am very annoyed by the lack of the original soundtrack, but the dub is supposed to be very good.
  • 70% of all DVD-players sold in Europe are region-free. It's probably the same ratio in Japan.
  • Actually, Buena Vista is the G-rated arm of the Mouse. Miramax was purchased from the Weinstein Brothers to be the R-rated arm of Disney.
  • Forget about pirate vcds, I've hardly ever seen vcds in Japan. Maybe the original poster is thinking about some other country in the neighbourhood where vcds are popular like China or Thailand?
  • Well, you are pissed off because of this one movie. But remember that outside U.S.A. this is actually reversed and we can enjoy non-local movies (i.e. 95% of released movies) only if someone translates them well! Which is not always the case (look here [fuxoft.cz]). How pissed off you would be if you couldn't get the jokes in Aliens or Star Wars?
  • thanks. i got it now, but i still think that removing a language isn't going to matter, most people outside the US can speak english on top of their native language. Americans are just dumb that way.
  • No..you cant make me. Its funny that i made you waste 30 seconds of your time responding though.
  • I am probably one of the many who would like to voice our concern to Buena Vista over not including the Japanese language track (with subtitles I imagine) on the DVD. Unfortunately, it's too late to provide a response to michj@nausicaa.net to have it relayed to Mr. David Jessen at Buena Vista. Does anyone know of a way to contact Mr. Jessen (or someone who'll listen and can do something) directly to voice our concern? I've asked michj@nausicaa.net if he knows.
  • What a wonderfull incentive for authors to write good articles we're interested in.

  • What An Insult To The Japanese (Score:5)

    by Effugas ( 2378 ) on Saturday July 01, 2000 @07:25PM (#963375) Homepage
    This is absolutely amazing.

    Princess Mononoke is the most popular Japanese movie of all time, bested only by Titanic in terms of tickets sold in Japan.

    Now, I want everybody here to consider this:

    The United States, which overall had a surprisingly lackluster response to Mononoke's release in theatres, is going to be getting the DVD version first.

    Europe, too, will be allowed a viewable copy.

    But not Japan. Those people aren't not good enough for their own movie, whose voice actors(consistently better than anyone the rest of the world puts forth for Power Rangers duty) will find themselves stripped out like so much Soviet Revisionism, replaced with the smooth veneer of Hollywood Stardom.

    My respect for the Japanese will actually diminish if only me, a twenty one year old white guy sitting in Silicon Valley, sees this as more of a cultural and sociopolitical slap in the face to the millions of Japanese people worldwide than anything George Lucas could have ever done to incur Geek Wrath delaying the Star Wars Episode 1 DVD "a bit longer".

    If there's one nice thing we'll get about this, it's that attempting to regionalize markets--particularly through technical means--just became known as an excuse for depriving a culture of its own heritage, and has been exposed as a dramatically anti-consumer tactic.

    Yours Truly,

    Dan Kaminsky
    DoxPara Research
    http://www.doxpara.com
  • For more on the dubbed vs. subbed debate, and everything else about anime, please go here [megami.net].

    Everything they say is right.

    Everything. Especially #83.

    - A.P.
    --


    "One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad

  • Well, you might as well ask, "So why do you like movies?" or "Why do you like reading books?" There is animé for every personal taste out there; if you don't like one genre, you might still prefer some other. There's romance, action-adventure-shoot-em-up, science fiction, fantasy, comedy, drama, whatever you want. I don't think anybody likes animé just because it's animé.
    --
  • What is the reason behind the general situation where films aren't available in all countries at the same time.

    I've heard from a smaller studio that it wasn't practical to advertise heavily in other countries until they had an idea of how the film had fared in the US, and whilst that might be true for cinema I see no reason for enforcing it on videos and dvds.

    Yep, that's the exact reason, keep the studios from having to do a worldwide marketing blitz on every movie that they show. Although, one could counter that they could get around that by waiting until after the movie is done running worldwide before releasing the film to the home market, but we're talking about the same industry that released a movie to the home market while it was still in the US theaters (Batman).

    Of course this still doesn't explain why one needs region coding on movies such as Plan Nine From Outer Space that have been out forever, and I don't think would be theatrically viable anymore, except for those rare theaters that specialize in those niche markets.

    Now as far as gasoline, maybe we can do an exchange, a Range Rover for a few tankers of gasoline perchance?

  • GOOfGaLoE.com, what were you using?
    --Shoeboy
  • Actually, "reverse importing" is the Japanese importing an American DVD/laserdisc of Japanese animé.

    This is importing, but in the reverse direction of the way it is usually imported (animé is usually imported from Japan, to the United States, not the other way around). Hence, reverse importing.
    --

  • It is extremely common for Anime enthusiasts to watch things in original Japanese, perhaps with english subtitles, rather than to see them dubbed. It's very common..
    so it is obvious that those selling the dvd have no concept of this culture.
  • Well, I can assure you that the three times I saw it in the theater many heads and arms were lost, much to the AMUSEMENT of the audience. :P
  • This is gotta be the stupidest "marketing" manuver... They know that 60% of the buyers want it in japanese... this is sooo lame.
  • Hahaha, hardly. Otherwise how would I play my Japanese LEON DVD? I'm sure defeating territorial lockout is even easier in Asia where demand for cheaper foreign movies is greater. On another note, maybe this is all a response to Central Park Media _NOT_ region coding Grave of the Fireflies DVD.
  • My apologies then.
  • Reverse-importing... wouldn't that be exporting?

    --

  • Disney cut material anyway (Score:3)

    by Fluffy ( 7364 ) on Saturday July 01, 2000 @05:17PM (#963394) Homepage

    I only caught the end of a fan-subbed copy of Mononoke Hime, and haven't seen Disney's version, but I heard from some people who ought to know that Disney cut a small amount of material from the original Japanese version because it was a little too bloody for their taste.

    I'm curious as to how this would affect audio tracks on the US release of the DVD, since I'm assuming it will be Disney's slightly editted version of the movie. I'm sure Disney could make a bit of money by releasing a "Special Edition" DVD with all the footage, the original Japanese audio, and their audio (cleverly editted around the additional material, of course).

    Personally, if I have the choice I'll go for a subtitled version, as I'm sure most anime fans would. However, I've heard good things about the Disney version, so I'd love to have a DVD with both.

  • I AM DONATING THE PROCEEDS! (Score:4)

    by Robotech_Master ( 14247 ) on Saturday July 01, 2000 @07:49PM (#963402) Homepage Journal
    As I have said repeatedly in multiple fora--including AnimeOnDVD [animeondvd.com]'s openforums, the Nausicaa mailing list, rec.arts.anime.misc, alt.video.dvd, et cetera, I am donating everything I make from the article to Nausicaa.net [nausicaa.net] to help them recover from the costs of a very expensive hardware failure a while back.. Last time I checked (while Themestream was up--honest, it was up when I submitted the article!), I had gotten almost $40 worth of hits.

    Don't believe me? Click h ere [brown.edu] for the Nausicaa.net listserv message in which I first announced the donation (and challenged others to match it or do likewise...sadly, nobody has come forward to do that yet), or here [animeshowcase.com] for the AnimeOnDVD article. Of course, you still have to believe I will actually send the money once I get it--but if I don't, I'll completely screw up my good reputation online, and that is a thing I value and cherish, as I've been around since 1992, help moderate a newsgroup, and so on.

    I'm proud to be able to do this to give back to a site I so respect and cherish. Would you care to match the funds I donate, palo0019? Or perhaps write a similar article and donate the proceeds similarly? Anyone else?

    When the article is available, I hope you'll click on it and help out Nausicaa.net by a dime. It might also be nice if you'd look at some of the other articles I wrote, including one on Jon Katz, that I will be keeping the money for, but that's entirely up to you. :)
    --

  • Battle on, Otaku.
    You mean, of course, "Tatakae! Otaking!" [gainax.co.jp]

  • Snailmail the man (Score:5)

    by Robotech_Master ( 14247 ) on Saturday July 01, 2000 @07:58PM (#963404) Homepage Journal
    You can Snailmail Mr. Jessen, care of Buena Vista. The address is on my article, but since the site is currently scroo'd up (and probably won't be fixed 'til Monday...their support staff seems to be somewhat nonexistant on the weekends), here it is now:

    David Jessen
    c/o Buena Vista Home Entertainment
    350 South Buena Vista Street
    Burbank, CA 91521-4691
    --

  • Re:Just goes to show you... (Score:4)

    by Mr Z ( 6791 ) on Saturday July 01, 2000 @08:06PM (#963405) Homepage Journal

    I guess this goes to show yet another way that region-coding can screw customers in multiple markets. In this case, there is obviously demand in both Region 1 and Region 2 markets, but since the folks that serve Region 2 aren't ready to ship their copies, the folks in Region 1 have to suffer too.

    This is a load of BS. Without region coding, everyone would be able to get the full edition when it was first pressed. The only reason not to serve the demand is to artificially raise prices by artificially limiting supply -- eg. gouging the consumer.

    Region coding is just a thinly veiled collusive agreement between manufacturers to divide up the market ahead of time to reduce global competition and therefore artificially inflate prices. They claim its to better serve each market without damaging other markets, since each region can afford different prices, etc. etc. etc.. Sorry, but really that's saying "With the status quo, we think we'll make more dollars than if we allow the markets to level themselves and let natural market forces actually determine prices."

    No sir, I don't like it.

    --Joe
    --

  • Re:DVD Moronity (Score:3)

    by Robotech_Master ( 14247 ) on Saturday July 01, 2000 @08:10PM (#963409) Homepage Journal
    Well, actually CD, laserdisc, and media prices have been at least two to three times what you'd pay in America ever since I can remember. I believe it's because of the higher cost of living they have over there.
    --

  • For Anime DVD news... (Score:5)

    by Shaheen ( 313 ) on Saturday July 01, 2000 @05:21PM (#963415) Homepage
    Slashdot, while many of its readers are into anime, probably isn't the best place to get news about anime DVDs. I find the following two sites most helpful in documenting daily developments in Anime, Animation and DVD. They also have reviews of almost all the anime that's been published on DVD as well...

    AnimeOnDVD.Com [animeondvd.com]
    DVD Animania [wildcoast.org]

  • Maybe I'm a bit confused, but why is the company concerned about reverse-importing (a.k.a. exporting). Japan got Mononokehime a looong time ago (after all, anime comes from JAPAN!). As a starting fan of Anime, I was really looking forward to getting Princess Mononoke with Japanese voices (lots of people tend to like hearing the original voices), as Mononokehime is considered a great anime.

    Now, the only thing that I can think of is that Japan has not yet released a DVD version of Mononokehime. Well, this would be easy enough to fix! Just call whoever distributes Ghlibi's films, and tell them that you are worried about exportation (and they should be worried too), yada yada yada, and so why not release a DVD version at the same date? PRESTO! No more problem!

  • I just read this as saying that the US & Europen region DVDs won't have Japanese soundtracks. Presumably there has been/will be a Japanese region disc, with Japanese audio.

    No, read it again. They don't want Japanese audio because A) Discs are cheaper to export and then reimport than they are two just buy new and B) You can't buy them new because there's no legitimate product out on the market.

    They've actually got the chutzpah to give Mononoke to everyone else in the world except the country that spawned it and the fans that supported it. The mind boggles. It'd be like holding the Superbowl in Australia and broadcasting it everywhere except the States, where Americans would be stuck deciding who's the next schmuck to get kicked off the island.

    Ye gads, there'd be riots.

    --Dan
  • Discs cost $50 there so you can see why they are concerned about gray marketing the US discs back to Japan. Also the article says there aren't many players in Japan, so disc sellers need to keep the prices high to recoup production costs.

    Here's the article: DVD Players a Hard Sell in Japan [excite.com]

  • what's so bad about not being able to listen to the movie in Japanese?

    Two reasons? The script and the voice acting.

    I have seen Mononoke Hime in its original Japanese, in a fan-subbed English translation, and with the Princess Mononoke's dubbed translation.

    First, I strongly disagree with some of Neil Gaiman's decisions in "adapting" the English translation. Attempting to make the film seem less foreign to North American audiences, he completely lost much of the feel of the original script. The other English translations I've read retain Japanese names for gods and spirits. Gaiman decided to change tatarigami to "demon monster," which sounds stupid after several repetitions, and shishigami became "Great God of the Forest," which was just incredibly clumsy. These are only the most prominent examples.

    The translation also changed some blocks of dialogue to provide background info on some of the Nipponese history and culture in the film. Thanks, but no thanks. I'd prefer to get the original dialogue and not be treated like an ignorant gaijin.

    Then there's the voice acting. The talent featured in the Japanese voice track were among the best voice actors I have ever heard. The voice of Ashitaka in particular was really the essence of his character, and for me that made the movie. I can't describe it; you'll have to hear the performance for yourself.

    The U.S. has no real professional vocal talent (and even the best-known are poorly paid, such as the actors on The Simpsons), so as usual the American version was done by Hollywood screen actors not trained in voice acting. Their performances were good, but no match for the acting in the original. Many of the characters (cough - Moro) were severely changed by the acting alone. Actors with noticeable American or English accents (Billy Bob Thornton, Minnie Driver, Claire Danes) were especially out of place in this story, which was so rooted in the place and culture of Japan. A monk from ancient Japan should not use dialect from the Southern United States.

    As an added slap in the face, I believe they also decided to translate the music. Why?!

    For reference, here is an excellent annotated English/Japanese script [mv.com]. Sorry, I don't know if or where you can find a copy of the Princess Mononoke adaptation.

  • One thing I've learned in the last year, and with BVHV in particular, is that the best course of action is to wait for the collector's edition. I waited on buying A Bug's Life and Tarzan and got the spectacular collector's editions instead, and will do the same for Toy Story/Toy Story 2. The extra few months waiting is no big deal to me personally, and I certainly don't mind missing the regular editions.

    So I suggest you wait this one out. Mononoke has just the right market for a deluxe version. Remember that Kiki's Delivery Service was released in two versions (dubbed pan-and-scan and subbed widescreen). Even if a special edition isn't released, there's still the opportunity to get the Japanese disc when it comes out (hopefully with English subtitles?) And we've waited, what, five years now anyway? If you can, I recommend you wait it out and see what happens as the Japanese DVD release comes around.

    Whatever you do, don't say it's a surprise if you hear about a North American special edition DVD of Mononoke later on!

  • Discs cost $50 there so you can see why they are concerned about gray marketing the US discs back to Japan. Also the article says there aren't many players in Japan, so disc sellers need to keep the prices high to recoup production costs.

    Either the market is large enough to support selling the discs legitimately, or it's so small that they won't lose much money from the few people who actually watch DVD's in Japan.

    It's one of the two. Neither justifies this ridiculous position that Japan is in right now.

    --Dan
  • Heh, hell with the lack of the Japanese Language, if Disney is going to handle it, that's the kiss of death in my book. You see, Disney == purile sugary and all the characters spontaneously burst into song at the slightest provocation. This can't be good for America's youth. Now most anime... the good anime... comes close to portraying life as the dark stinking pile of shit that it really is, and there's no way that vision would fit in with the Disney paradigm. In short, when I raise MY kids, it's not going to be on Disney, nor anything that has the Disney blessing.

    Hmm. Oh. Friend of mine just reminds me that they are one of the big gay friendly companies out there and they DID manage to piss off, like, all the southern baptists, so they can't be all bad. Maybe all they need is a good solid dose of Evil...

  • I don't know about the US version, but in the italian version they also altered dialogue in the movie to give it sort-of-an-happy ending, with Lady Eboshi pledging to be more respectful of Nature in the future.
    In only 2 phrases they managed to completely subvert the movie's message.

  • DVD Moronity (Score:3)

    by grahamsz ( 150076 ) on Saturday July 01, 2000 @05:28PM (#963434) Homepage Journal
    What is the reason behind the general situation where films aren't available in all countries at the same time.

    I've heard from a smaller studio that it wasn't practical to advertise heavily in other countries until they had an idea of how the film had fared in the US, and whilst that might be true for cinema I see no reason for enforcing it on videos and dvds

    In the UK I get the very strong feeling that it's just so that, like everything else they can charge us more. Here we pay in the region of $25 for a DVD! I do hope that the internet can bring some conformity to world prices... it's just crazy that it's cheaper for us to have a british film shipped to us on dvd from the usa!? Think of the environment! </treehugging>

    Now what I really want to see is petrol/gasoline being available over the internet (ready for download into your car) so I can get some lovely cheap american gas :)

    Just out of curiosty has anyone else come across the UK dvd version of the film 'Human-Traffic'. We thought they'd come up with some wickedly clever way of stopping DeCSS from working, only to discover that they hadn't even bothered to CSS it in the first place!?? It certainly made me wonder just how dedicated the film companies are to stamping out piracy - is this commonplace?

  • Stolen from http://www.animenewsservice.com/ [animenewsservice.com] (concerning them being /.'ed by the mass), the dialog between the distributor is here.
    6-28-00---- Further Mononoke DVD Update Source: Nausicaa Net [nausicaa.net]

    Seattle, Washington, 2:15pm Pacific Time.

    I just got off the phone with Mr. David Jessen, VP of Special Acquisitions, Buena Vista Home Entertainment. Due to a schedule change on his part, he will only be attending Anime Expo on Friday, and we have made arrangements to meet Friday morning at 10am for breakfast. This will coincide with AX 2000's Opening Ceremonies in Live Programming room 1, however.

    To answer your most burning questions:

    Q. Is the August 29th day-and-date release official?
    A. Yes.

    Q. What will be available on August 29th?
    A. The English-dubbed DVD with a bonus French language track will be available for purchase. The English-dubbed VHS will be available for rental. The DVD will not carry a Japanese language track.

    Q. Why will the English DVD not include a Japanese language track?
    A. Because the Japanese office of BUENA VISTA (not Studio Ghibli) requested it. There has been no DVD release of Mononoke yet, and sales of a Region 1 version DVD could still threaten sales of a Region 2 version in Japan. DVD piracy and importation are significant enough problems, regardless of the benefits of region-encoding.

    Q. Will an English DVD with Japanese language and subtitles be available after the Japanese DVD release of Mononoke?
    A. No. However, *if there is sufficient interest*, when the VHS rental copies run out and have to be reprinted/remastered, he will request that two versions be made: the original VHS dub sell-through and a new VHS widescreen subtitled sell-through.

    Q. How may fans let Disney know there is "sufficient interest" in a subtitled version of Mononoke on VHS?
    A. Mr. Jessen and I will discuss this when we meet at AX 2000 on Friday. Meanwhile, please write to me with your vote, so that I can surprise him with your enthusiasm!

    In an e-mail message sent DIRECTLY to me (michj@nausicaa.net), please provide the following information:

    the words "I will buy subtitled Mononoke" in the subject line your real name (no nicknames, please)
    your city and state (or province and country for non-US residents)
    the statement (or some reasonable variation)
    "If it is made available, I fully intend to purchase at least ___ copy/ies of the film Princess Mononoke in the Japanese language with English subtitles, in widescreen (letterboxed) format, even if this means it will be more expensive than the English-only version."

    (Fill in the blank ("___") with the number of copies you'd buy.)

    OPTIONAL: add the statement
    "I would prefer a DVD/VHS release with these features over the English-only releases currently scheduled for August 29, 2000."

    (Erase the choice, DVD or VHS, that you don't want.)

    Please note that I will print out all of these messages and present them to Mr. Jessen on Friday morning, June 30th, 2000, so get your mail to me ASAP!

    Privacy warning: If you would prefer not to have your name, e-mail address, or other personal information given to Buena Vista Home Entertainment, please do not send me this piece of e-mail. 6-28-00---- Mononoke FeedbackExceprted from an e-mail sent out by John Andersen:

    Hello everyone,

    This post is in regard to the recent issue regarding the Princess Mononoke DVD.

    I spoke with David Jessen on the evening of June 26th 2000, he is the liaison for Tokuma Shoten at Buena Vista Home Entertainment. He has just begun this position at the company, and was unaware of the negative feedback concerning the exclusion of a Japanese language track and english subtitles from the Princess Mononoke DVD. He would like to assess the interest into how many people would like to see a Japanese language track on the DVD.

    He is very enthusiastic in hearing feedback from Miyazaki fans, constructive feedback can be sent to him at his office address which is:

    David Jessen
    c/o Buena Vista Home Entertainment
    350 South Buena Vista Street
    Burbank, CA 91521-4691

    He would like to know how many people out there would like to see a Princess Mononoke DVD release with a Japanese language track and english subtitles. Mr. Jessen is very enthusiastic about receiving feedback since he has just begun the position, so please give it to him. Any feedback or suggestions about the future releases of Hayao Miyazaki's films can be sent to him.

    The future of seeing Miyazaki's films on DVD with a Japanese audio track and english subtitles count on your feedback. Please take a moment of your time to type up a polite letter, put in an envelope, and send in your thoughts about how you want to see Miyazaki's films.

    Thank you.

    Sincerely,
    John Andersen

    It gives me yet another reason to hate MPAA and Disney in particular.

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