Linux And Beijing 131
Headed by an unnamed correspondent, many people have written about this story: "The China Red Flag Linux has surfaced again, this time in the
New York Times. Turns out there may be some truth to the
story that Linux is being pushed by the Chinese government." I do like this tidbit, even though it demonstrates the article's overall superficial tone: "Nonetheless, Great Wall Computer, one of China's biggest PC makers, has already shipped 200,000 desktop computers loaded with the Linux operating system, which looks much like Windows though it cannot yet match all of Microsoft's features." I can think of some features we can do without ...
conspiracy theory? (Score:1)
I thought that Slashdot contained the worlds largest concentration of conspiracy theorist when it came to Microsoft, Apparently, I was wrong.
This is especially funny in that the country that is the world leader in "big brother is watching you" is scared about "big brother watching them"
------------------------------------------
If God Droppd Acid, Would he see People???
Killing, not humanitarian (Score:1)
The humanitarian way of handling the situation would be to emprison (I think I tried 4 different spellings for emprison and none of them look right) the dope peddlers and keep them in jail until they're either reformed or too old to go back to their old ways.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Though the USA is a country with a lot of problems, it does have free speech and freedom of thought, something China lacks. I don't think you'll see too many peaceful protestors run over by tanks in the US, whatever might happen to their young in the ghettos.
China is a fascinating country with an amazing history and a rich tradition, but it's government is not the greatest in the world. But things are changing, who knows what is in the future? Perhaps one day people can move anywhere they want within it's borders, speak their thoughts freely and not worry about the consequences.
If you feel like attacking my home country now, sink your teeth in Sweden, because that's where I'm from.
Re:Linux User == Communist (Score:1)
Fascism may have been lost on the public mind as of late, but your statement:
ranging from left anarchism to right libertarian
would be far more encompassing of a few rare trolls here if written as:
luddite anarchism to technocratic fascism
Re:Systemised defects.. not on same rack (Score:1)
The point Iwas making is that given you (a) come from China and (b) clearly believe life in Chine is superior to life in the US, why aren't you in China?
I may have been mistaken in assuming you're not still in China (I just looked at altavista.net), but then, why are you using a webmail account?
Re:You need some troll practice... (Score:1)
Actually, you seemed to be arguing that execution of those who are in possession (of crack, I suppose) will save them from overdosing. I agree, it will. Is that an improvement? Nah.
Roughly half of the US still supports capital punishment for murderers. Are they fascists too? Why should we draw the line at the crime of murder? Especially when drug dealers and drug traffiking leads to deaths of all sorts?
While I'm no advocate of capital punishment (talk about being hard to say you're sorry!), I would think that there was a clear difference between putting someone to death for murder, and putting them to death for aggravated sales.
Every year, cars kill more people than drugs. Should we imprison and/or kill those who run car dealerships?
Randall.
Little Red Box (Score:1)
The Chinese Communist Party has called on all loyal cadre to "email bombard the headquarters and push the revisionist Microsoft roaders into the sea". Beijing announced Friday that it will be replacing all Microsoft technology with that of the open source Linux operating system. Party officials ordered all comrades to burn Mao's "Little Red Book" and replace it with "little red boxes".
In Tienanmen Square enormous statues of penguins appeared and the old slogans were replaced by the new;
"An Application is not a Dinner Party"
"All Power Comes Out of The Keyboard of a Geek"
"Let a Thousand Operating Systems Bloom"
George W. Bush weighed in on the announcement from a campain stop in Silicon Valley; "I knew when I heard about that RED Hat Linux company that that was something totally uncool. Any computer type thing where you can actually go in and see the code for how the thing works and stuff-that's just un-American! Those commie Red Hats probably stole the Los Alamos disks too!"
In kicking out Microsoft, officials for the Communist Party stated that there simply was only room for one Monopolistic power in China - the Communist Party. Chen Chong, a deputy minister of information industries stated; "Adopting Linux as the most favored operating system of China will free us from dependence on Microsoft and put us on the fast track to automating the whole country into one big prison labor factory." He went on to denounce the following privately registered domain names as examples of the excesses of bourgeoise decadence and counter revolutionary activity:
http://www.Marxist-Linuxist.com
http://www.RedChineseLinux.com
http://www.CommunistLinux.com
Re:Where in India do you live? (Score:1)
In Bangalore (the software capital) there are more computer users, and therefore more Linux users
I'm sorry, I fail to see the logic there. In India there are more people, therefore more computer users makes as much sense as what you just said.
A view from Beijing (Score:2)
The issue, like all such issues, boils down to money.
The problem Windows faces in China -- as well as here in Taiwan, tough to a lesser extent -- is price. Microsoft insists pricing Windows out of the reach of all but the wealthiest individuals. Street prices of a Windows upgrade in Beijing are roughly equivalent to half a year's wage for the average laborer. If Microsoft can't figure out why software piracy on the mainland exceeds 80% (a conservative estimate) it might start with its own pricing policies.
This doesn't put a legit copy of Windows out of the reach of just the individual; imagine what it does to a business's technology budget.
Couple this with the Chinese attitude toward fine print; "contemptuous" might be too fine a word for it. The kind of "licensing" championed by western "shrinkwrap" is utterly foreign to the Chinese mentality. As far as a Chinese consumer is concerned, if he buys a copy of Windows, it's his. No shrinkwrap license is going to convince him he can't install the thing wherever, whenever, and how ever often he wants.
This attitude extends to businesses, as well. Buy one copy of Windows, install it a thousand times. What Microsoft calls a 99.9% piracy rate, a businessman calls common sense.
This explains why the largest OEM in Beijing recently reported shipping 2,000 copies of Windows last year. During the same period, it shipped 200,000 copies of Linux. If Microsoft isn't worried, it should be.
Here in Taiwan -- though the price comparatively speaking isn't nearly outrageous, given the torrid economy -- piracy is just as rampant. A few months ago I went hunting for a new PC with a *legit* copy of Windows -- not because I wanted it, but just as an excercise.
I checked out over a dozen system vendors, and not ONE sold machines with legitimate copies of Windows; even here in Taiwan, the margin between piracy and legitimacy is enough to make or break a company. And even in westernized Taiwan, our attitude toward the legal system is more closely aligned to that of the mainland than the West.
Lee Kai Wen - Chiayi, Taiwan, ROC
Software isn't rocket science (Score:1)
So Eric Raymond - SO SHOVE IT.
Larry Wall made money off his Perl books and sent his kids through college as a result of the widespread use of his work.
"That all changed in the late 70's when a young programmer actually had the audacity to sell his BASIC interpreter to the other programmers rather than just giving it and the source code for it away."
The audacity?? Let me get this straight, it is bad or wrong to try to make a business out something?? When I give my software away to people will those people, in return, provide a roof over my head or some food on my plate??
Why should I pay for something when I can make my own?
That's highway robbery.
Remember people were writing interpreters already. BASIC wasn't a new Microsoft invention. That was pure elitism not capitalism.
And then there's Gates whining about protecting Typing Tutor because it was a huge monetary investment? Had he opened it, people would have more experience to create compilers and it would cost him a fraction of the original cost to develop the next version.
Besides, how the hell can a Typing Tutor cost so much when it copies the same old scheme of speed tests, game challenges, and repetitive exercises that every other teaching package uses?
But then again what can you expect from the last company to see value in the Internet?
Obligatory partners.nytimes.com link (Score:1)
If for some reason it was just a fluke on my end, here's the link. [nytimes.com]
Added Bonus: Obligatory Complaint about downplay of Linux
These people need to get a clue.
Re:conspiracy theory? (Score:1)
I just think that it's ironic that the largest non-free country will have the largest number of users of free software.
Re:BIG News from Carololina (Score:1)
I don't live in the US, but even I know the first two amendments are not amendments to the Bill of Rights -- which has never been amended.
If you knew how Americans were viewed by a good part of the civilized world, you might change your tune a bit. Gun-toting, shoot-first-ask-questions-later, card-carrying members of the posse comitatus. A country where every disagreement is punctuated with bullets, and where incidents like Columbine and drive-by shootings seem the rule rather than the exception, legitimizing the strict gun-control laws in our respective lands. A land where capital punishment (of all things!) is still practiced, and this by a people which considers itself the zenith of civilized life!
Sorry -- from this corner of the universe, your 2nd Amendment appears to be more scourge than savior.
Lee Kai Wen -- Chiayi, Taiwan, ROC
Re:New Microsoft PR (Score:1)
Szo
Re:nothing to do with Communism (Score:1)
The red star (as you are taking it to symbolise communism) has nothing to do with the things you are saying about China and the problems of living there. Communism is a system in which wealth is spread, personal ownership is disallowed, etc. etc. etc. What brings on the situation you have described is not communism, but a dictatorship by a totalitarian party. It just so happens that the leaders of many of the world's communist nations have become power-hungry and exercised totalitarian control.
Communism is related (however somewhat inversely) to Capitalism. Totalitarianism is related (inversely) to Democracy. Don't confuse the issue, because communism doesn't always mean a dictatorship and capitalism doesn't always mean democracy. Of course whether communism is good for a nation depends on your economic (and maybe social) viewpoint, but remember communism != totalitarianism.
So, back to Mozilla, I don't see any problem with the red star, as it may only be assumed to be symbolic of communism (eg. shared wealth etc. etc.), not of anything nasty like civil rights abuses.
Re:A touch of history (Score:1)
On the other hand, China shows a consistent propensity for ignoring IP piracy. While I personally find this an admirable and enlightened way of dealing with media reproduction, M$' opinion differs. In fact, it differs to the point where MS said they'd jack up the price of their software in China to cover whatever they estimated mainland piracy was costing them.
End result: semi-UNIX L-words all around. Free software doesn't matter, because everyone copies everything anyway. They won't enforce the GPL either, but it will never be worth selling closed source software there, because China will never pay any attention to reverse engineering, either. They win vs. M$ because they hold all the cards in their country. The day one chinese person GPLs a useful program, the rest of us will win, too. Assuming we can read the documentation.
Some of the high-tech manufacturers who went in there years ago to set up shop tried to register their patents with the government. Within two years chinese factories opened right down the street(!) and were competing with them USING THEIR PATENTS. See what I'm getting at? China isn't just a sovereign nation, it's a whole different way of looking at things. It's not stealing to them, you can either keep your secret or you can't. Software isn't really the sort of secret you can keep.
-jpowers
Re:confused (Score:1)
AC, Ask the native Americans how just and benevolent a government the U.S. is. By your line of reasoning the U.S. Government is evil incarnate since they carried out campaign of genocide some time ago against unsavory elements of the population within its borders. The inconvenient fact that the Trail of Tears happened over a century ago is immaterial; afterall, Mao is no longer in power either, and most of his more extreme policies have been reversed or changed since he ruled. To turn your quote against you: "Yes, the U.S. government is evil -- everyone in the current leadership could be convicted of conspiracy to commit tens of millions of murders," at least on the same grounds as one says this regarding the current regime in the PRC.
The U.S. was under martial law during much of Lincoln's time in office, and people's civil rights were suspended, sometimes egregiously, during that time. Shall we mention Lincoln in the same breath as Chairman Mao?
what's unfortunate (Score:2)
Still...it *is* a means to an end
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
What do they firewall their country with? (Score:3)
Free Porn! [ispep.cx] or Laugh [ispep.cx]
Re:Missing the point. (Score:1)
Same thing with drugs. Does Singapore have a drug problem? Sure they do. But is it nearly as bad as here? No. Because, IIRC, if they find you carrying >= 1/10 of a gram of cocaine / heroine, you get your head blown off. Does this deter drug dealers? I would hope so. The policy is similar in China.
It's obvious that crime will happen anywhere. Same with poverty. (Duh!) And that the government can't completely stamp them out. But to critize the Chinese government for torture and imprisonment of political dissenters without realizing that the Chinese government far surpasses the US government in some important humanitarian areas (like the ones mentioned above) is quite unfair.
The whole thing isn't cut and dried, obviously. Is the US more liberal and humanitarian in the area of free speech and expression? Sure. Is it necessarily more humanitarian in its protection of the safety and well-being of the average citizen? Maybe not.
I don't need to defend China to please the commies -- I live in the US. But I would like to just point out that to label the Chinese government as barbaric while implicitly trumpeting the humantarian nature of the US government, as the original poster that I responeded to did, is unfair.
What th'...? (Score:1)
I know Slashdot != Janes, but this is hi-tech and hi-mech and certainly qualifies as newsworthy, considering that NASA's every fart warrants mention on Slashdot.
Sometimes I wish Slashdot's political content wasn't so Katz-o-centric. A $60,000,000,000 weapon system and the subsequent arms race is going to have more societal impact than a Doom clone or the profiling of adolescent misfits.
k., wondering where the hate went.
--
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people
are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
New Microsoft PR (Score:3)
Re:Open Source and Communism (Score:1)
But that's not the point. The open source movement, with Linux as it gleaming frontpiece, has to do with freedom, not economics. Capitalism does not inherently equate to freedom, nor does communism. Even in a supposedly "free" nation, there are limits to what the people are allowed to do to maintain a stable society, which basically comes down to the old saying "your freedom to swing your fist ends at somebody else's face." Communism merely takes a hard look at the free market model and assumes that, since wealth and resources are limited in any closed system, the freedom of individuals to amass massive quantities of personal wealth inherently limits the safety and freedoms of others.
Really, the open source model is both amenable to capitalism and communism and amenable to neither, depending on how you look at it. But the issue here that does make one wonder about the Peoples' Republic's adoption of the OS has less to do with capitalism vs. communism than with freedom of expression vs. governmental regulation of speech and opinion (which neither capitalism or communism ever directly address, both assuming that it would all fall into place after the economic side had been dealt with, which has, IMO, been historically proven wrong).
It seems somehow hypocritical that a country that so firmly believes that its people need to be protected from their own opinions would embrace a movement that not only celebrates, but relies upon, the idea that people possess different opinions, beliefs, etc., and that these differences are not only not to be avoided, but turned into an advantage (a collectivist notion that seems more at home with Marxist dogma than both traditional capitalism and Stalinist/Maoist communism). But then again, its doubtful any of this entered into the minds of the powers-that-be in China. Leave that to the peanut gallery philosophers ^_^
Re:You need some troll practice... (Score:1)
And the crack bit --> I really don't care less about the grammatical nitpickers. They don't bother me. My general point isn't that crack doesn't kill in China, but that crack isn't at all readily available in china (execution for posession seems an effective deterrent), and thus it can't readily kill. That's all.
Reparented? (Score:1)
China vs The Cult of Microsoft (Score:2)
"Members claim to be taken where they want to go today. This is an obvious lie, and a feeble attempt at brain washing"
Instead of burning books, thousands of computers and MS CDroms are collected together in public places for burning in bon-fires.
A new and special trade treaty between Haiti and Red China leads to a new research breakthrough, and the practice of acupunture on a doll stuffed with the shredded pages of a windows manual is used to render the health of Bill Gates more suitable to chinese policy aims.
A picture of Tux in a mao suit is paraded the Tienemen square
then again, maybe not .........
this might not be a good idea after all?????
GNU Sells its CDs for $5000 (Score:1)
Capitalism is two parts: money and products.
Get a clue.
freedom (Score:1)
Anyone who thinks communism is a viable way to live has never lived under communist rule.
If you're of an intellectual bent, read Atlas Shrugged to find out what it's like when you allow the state to decide your fate. Communism is great for those who want to abrogate personal responsibility and sacrifice self-respect and individuality.
All you communist lovers, run right over to China. Yeah, I thought so. You have no conviction. And because deep down, you know the truth, but are afraid to express it.
Re:China vs The Cult of Microsoft-quite possible (Score:1)
Actually if their main concern is security they may indeed forbid the use of Windows, especially if connected to a network, saying that it may send info back to MS or the NSA. It wouldn't matter of course that none of that could be proved (like go ahead and use it and we'll watch with a packet sniffer), but the rulers there never required much in the way of facts to buttress their positions anyway. They just make the policy (no Falun Gong) and imprison and kill people who violate it. (You know, like the US does with the "War on Drugs".)
So, we will eventually see people turning into martyrs for Windows!
The headlines will read "2000 Chinese businessmen today were rounded up and taken to a re-education center as a result of their insistence on continuing to use Word and Excel on a Windows 95 system. One miscreant said: 'But I need my address book!' and was promptly beaten with a Red Flag CD."
Re:confused (Score:1)
It has been my experience (as an overseas born Chinese) there is a not insignificant number of Chinese individuals with prejudiced attitudes towards whites, blacks, and non-Chinese asians. Most of the examples I've met are from the mainland -- pride has something to do with that, I think, with Chinese from outside the PRC having had enough broadening (humbling?) experiences to teach them better.
Now it's true that the conversation thread has become increasingly off-topic, but I'd like to ask you something. You say, "You all" are a bunch of racists? Remember that on Slashdot you are addressing an international audience (including your own countrymen, perhaps). Perhaps you mean "all Americans"? I that case, think about how that sounds. You are saying that all Americans, as a group, can be classed as racists?
Is Red Flag pulic?? (Score:2)
Re:You need some troll practice... (Score:1)
I'm arguing that those who are in posession tend to sell. And that selling creates crime. (the fact that it is a crime aside, that is.) Either way, pushers peddle a product that is in high demand. But the demand for $$ in the drug market, and the inability of the far greater majority of drug users to come up with that money legitimately, creates crime in their illegal efforts to cough up the dough.
The argument is that people don't rob 7-11s for fun; they do it to get their drug and booze money. They do it when their welfare checks run out.
To use is their own problem, although I would argue that certain types of controlled substances also causes violence (not a difficult argument to make, I would think, with things like cocaine and PCP). But just by using, you create a demand. And with that demand, comes the pushers. Nor is the line between pusher and user necessarily always so clear cut. So the users are also at least partially responsible for other people's deaths and various related crimes, even assuming that they never pushed at all (which IMHO is highly unlikely.)
As for the cars: accidents happen. Are people responsible? Yeah. Is it an accident? Yes. Should we kill them? Well, maybe not.
On the other hand, should the guy with a BAC 4 times above the legal limit, and smoking a joint, that just plowed into a van full of children, should he die? IMO, yes. Not every one would agree, but I think that if you're stupid enough to drink, and smoke up, and drive, and then you kill someone (or someones), then you should die for it.
After all, they made a conscious choice to make themselves an extremely high risk group for accidents. It's no different then going out at night with an axe and rolling dice to figure out which home you should storm into to hack some heads off.
Dealerships: obviously not. Are cars used for legit purposes? Yes. Are the people on the streets using crack and weed for legit purposes? I think not. That pretty much wraps that one up, I'd think.
Re:Systemised defects.. not on same rack (Score:1)
Point is, I'm not here as a political dissident, or somesuch. Nor as a refugee fleeing from the commies. But here as a student.
Re:GPL (Score:1)
All I wanted was a reply (Score:1)
My god you're an asshole, you complain about how I have no life doing nothing but posting on slashdot, and then you waste even more time trolling.
I'll ignore the part about me being an asshole (which is true, of course). As for the rest of it:
I am a smoker. I will tell you not to smoke. I will sincerely believe that what I tell you is for your own good. That does not make me a hypocrite.
you're calling me immature? Sorry for being 15, I mean, I can't control when I was born
No, I'm calling you misguided. And don't apologize for your age. Not necessary.
at least I'm doing something productive with my time
Here's the meat of the issue, because no, you're not. Posting and reading comments on slashdot is one of the least productive things you can do on the internet. Before you jump on the hypocrisy schtick, re-read that comment about me being a smoker.
Nothing happens here. Slashdot posters are not people to emulate. All this place is is a great big circle jerk for geeks to shoot their mouths off about whatever Malda decided the issue of the day would be.
Nothing happens on slashdot.
Nothing has ever happened because of slashdot.
Which OS you use means nothing in a larger sense of the world.
Online rights mean nothing compared with real world rights.
How the music industry functions, or who they sue, just really isn't that important.
Working on a bot for a chat client is much less useful than just having an actual conversation with someone.
Spending your teen years learning programming is not something you will be thankful for when you are forty.
The internet is not the future. The internet is a tool. It is a tool that many are exploiting to make themsleves rich. They are getting rich at your expense. You have also become their tool.
You have been lied to. Your skills (impressive appearing, I'll admit) may make your teachers and parents proud, but they will not make you happy. They may make you wealthy, or at least comfortable, but not happy.
Again, you have been lied to. This is not life. It is not even an acceptable substitute for life. You are being used by your tools and those that have created them. You have made yourself a slave.
You have allowed yourself to become everything that is wrong with slashdot and the people who frequent it. You are wasting your time, and much your preciously short life, on things that do not matter.
I'm sorry you were misled. I'm sorry you've already wasted so much time. I will be very sorry to see you blow me off and continue along this path, continuing to believe that what you do here matters or is worthwhile.
I will stop harassing you because, again, what happens on slashdot has no effect. You will prove me right by ignoring me. In a month you will have forgotten this exchange even occurred.
When you are middle-aged and miserable you will remember it again and hate yourself for thinking I was just some blowhard.
Re:Open Source and the Numbers Game (Score:1)
Re:everything to do with Communism (Score:1)
In totalitarianism you have a CPU and everything obeys that CPU.
In democracy the various hardware components perform the job of the CPU by voting on "rules" that determine system behaviour.
In communism everything works in cooperation for the good of the whole. A CPU is not needed.
As you can see, communism doesn't work too well when you have non-like minded citizens. Which is why I believe it won't ever work in anything but small communities.
And democracy is far from being perfect. The bread-and-circuses problem of voting irresponsibly is a serious issue. And your proof of communism's relationship to totalitarianism is fundamentally flawed because it assumes that countries that have called themselves "communist" are in fact, while they are not - they are totalitarianistic. As I mentioned earlier and will reiterate - communism is opposite of totalitarianism because communism implies no government while totalitarianism implies a very strong and large government.
50 years of red-bashing takes its toll. But lets not forget that we are not perfect either.
Re:You need some troll practice... (Score:1)
About the crack situation..
(execution for posession seems an effective deterrent), and thus it can't readily kill. That's all.
You just contradicted yourself. Looks like a 100% fatality rate to me.
--
Systemised defects.. not on same rack (Score:1)
Some of your examples are just petty...
Yes there are tradeoffs....
I'll boil it down for you...
In China.. You have no crime.. you have no life..
In the United States.. life sucks...
I like having my own life... suck or no suck... at least it's MINE!!!
Re:You need some troll practice... (Score:2)
Which would require you to have coherent views. I'm sorry, but advocating exection for drug possesion clearly labels you as either a) a troll or b) a menace to society.
I won't support the execution of addicts, but facists/stalinists like you are another matter.
--Shoeboy
The part that was edited out of article :) (Score:1)
---
Re:GPL (Score:3)
- One of two things could happen:
- Red Flag is always a day late and dollar short as far as Linux versions, in which case you shouldn't care what they do with it (unless you REALLY want to use it for some reason)
- Red Flag comes up with some cool stuff for their version, in which case you would want to use it.
- This case has two possibile scenarios:
- Go ahead and use the Red Flag, because they will respect the open source nature of it
- Go ahead and use the Red Flag, but then China would try to pursue legal action-- in which case the original GPL acts as your defense.
Either way, the Red Flag poses no threat to the Linux evolutionary track. In fact, having an isolated 'gene pool' behind the great wall being worked on by Chinese programmers may ultimately prove to be very interesting. The Eastern mindset, including basic philosophies, problem-solving methods, and group dynamics are fundamentaly different than westerners. Who know what they'll do with their kernel?Sai Chien,
Dave
Another story (Score:2)
Re:Great Firewall and Linux (Score:1)
In China, Linux will be seen as the official OS, the one the government wants the people to use. Anytime people can have their freedom they will want something better.
Academics in the west often praise the order they see behind the sealed borders of Communist countries. They fail to recognize that the chaos of the marketplace represents freedom.
Re:nothing to do with Communism (Score:5)
Would the NSA sign off on the use of an operating system for sensitive data by the U.S. Government if they weren't allowed to audit and evaluate the source code?
Re:GPL (Score:1)
Thats why whenever you see cheapo $6 CD's of Mozart, Chopin, or whoever, they're always recordings performed by a Soviet orchestra. It worked as a two way street and they released their own recordings into the public domain.
Re:confused (Score:1)
Re:confused (Score:1)
Re:confused (Score:1)
Re:Linux User == Communist (Score:1)
Re:You need some troll practice... (Score:1)
Face it.. you don't know what's happening over in China.. no one dose.
People are executed for saying things the government dosn't like. It's not proving very effective now is it?
But it dose have one effect. If anyone IS aware of an OD they won't talk about it.
China is not devoid of criminal activity....
It's devoid of anyone willing to talk about criminal activity....
Thats not the same thing
Re:freedom (Score:1)
Re:You need some troll practice... (Score:1)
Ouch!!!
You are right
Is this about Linux or Communism? (Score:1)
Re:A view from Beijing (Score:1)
Couple this with the Chinese attitude toward fine print; "contemptuous" might be too fine a word for it. The kind of "licensing" championed by western "shrinkwrap" is utterly foreign to the Chinese mentality. As far as a Chinese consumer is concerned, if he buys a copy of Windows, it's his. No shrinkwrap license is going to convince him he can't install the thing wherever, whenever, and how ever often he wants.
This makes damn near everyone who agrees with hardcore EULA's look like a blathering idiot. Hmm, hates fine print, likes to (re-)install OSes on multiple machines, sounds like that guy I see in the mirror every morning.
I mean seriously, how many EULA's have you read? I've read *maybe* 10, and clicked through....maybe 5,000. The Fine Print is a wierd phenomenon, I can't think of an important document I've signed since uni that didn't have a ton of it. I guess it is a natural extension of property law (and China seems to take the easy way out of that one), which would also explain why it's such a chore for software. Changing an infinite product into a scarce one requires LOTS of fine print.
--
Re:Missing the point. (Score:1)
Re:From a Slashdot user in Beijing (Score:1)
Re:Why can't the chinese create their own OS? (Score:1)
RedFlag Linux...
[My opologys to the moderators... I'm responding to an obveous troll.. we both deserve a -1 for this.... I tell ya it was fun...]
OT (Score:1)
I have been a moderator several times this year...and I usually try to read every post in a topic I am interested in...but, I think it is tme for a change of some sort.
My suggestion...
Implement an option to ignore posts made by certain nicknames. Kind of like the classic IRC '/ignore'.
Even better, how about a word filter. If I add 'portman' to my filter, I don't get that post.
If we are expected to look at banner ads on every page (thus paying
(Don't tell me to go somewhere else, or to make my own site...I like slashdot, but I am sick of the noise.)
While we're at it, how about an option to ignore every thread that starts with a post by someone in our 'ignore' list ?
OK...I'm done blowing off steam...let the trolling begin...
:-)
"Don't try to confuse the issue with half truths and gorilla dust."
Bill McNeal (Phil Hartman)
If you think communism means "no government"... (Score:2)
Yes, communism has that older meaning, but it also means Marxist socialism, which will always turn out to be mass totalitarian slavery because of the fundamental flaws in Marx's reasoning (that production comes from machines and natural resources, not humans).
Perhaps it became known as communism because of Marx's belief that the state would "wither away" over time. It seemed to him so natural that in times of plenty everybody would just take what little they needed and commit not crimes, that it would eventually become a true old-fashioned communism.
Similarly, democracy used to only mean direct democracy, every person voting on every policy decision. Today, republics are called democracies, and few people recognize any distinction between the two.
As I mentioned earlier, "liberal" used to mean what "libertarian" does today. This stuff happens all the time.
I think you'll get a lot more mileage out of recognizing the profound distinction between communes and communist states. Note that nobody ever called Russia or China a "commune", just "communist". Let the word go.
After a hundred years of widespread misuse, the misuse becomes the proper use. Who knows? Maybe fifty years from now we'll all be using "literally" to emphasize metaphors (ugh, I hate that, though).
Re:All I wanted was a reply (Score:1)
Unless you get a job out of this self-taught skill that starts at $70000 a year, which is quite possible given the need for CS people today.
=================================
Re:what's unfortunate (Score:1)
How dare you deride this poster for his ignorance. For god's sake, in order to find out these facts, he would have had to click the link and read the New York Times story [nytimes.com]. Did you ever stop to think that some people can't afford to be clicking around all the time like you do because they can't afford to pay the modem tax? And did you realize that the New York Times sometimes uses long words that people who attended underfunded public schools wouldn't know? No, you didn't, mister smart guy. You didn't stop to think at all.
Let this be a lesson to all of you who would criticize someone for posting a comment based on nothing more than ignorance. It's ignorance, all right, but it's a purer and better kind of ignorance than you city folk with your book-larnin' will ever know or understand.
Re:nothing to do with Communism (Score:1)
Gather together a bunch of your friends.
Construct effigies of Marx, Engles, Stalin, and Mao.
Go into a public square in any city in China and burn them. Make sure you don't try to conceal your identity.
Wait several weeks, then poll all your friends and find out how many of them have been arrested. Track these people over the long term, to determine if any of them are ever again given the opportunities other people more respectful of 'proletarian heroes' are given.
Doing the same thing in the United States, while it might result in civil-disorder arrests for the act of lighting the fire, will not result in long term persecution.
-------------------
Mozilla, please lose the fucking red star on your logo.
Re:Use www10.nytimes.com (Score:1)
http://www 10.nytimes.com/library/tech/yr/mo/biztech/article
No Registration required.
___
Re:what's unfortunate (Score:4)
No, that is not it at all, not at all.
If you read the history of this a little, you would find that Taiwanese programmers were responsible for making Windows Chinese friendly. They inserted quite a few Easter eggs making fun of the Chinese.
If there is one thing the Chinese government hates, it is a lack of respect. They would actively hurt their own interests to avoid using Windows at this point.
Here is a quote from the (no account required) article [nytimes.com] in the NY Times
The turning point in Microsoft's image was the introduction of its Chinese-language Windows 95 operating system, which was programmed to display references to "Communist bandits" and to exhort users to "take back the mainland." Beijing, infuriated to learn that Microsoft had used computer programmers in Taiwan to write the software, demanded that the company hire mainland programmers to fix it.
Just another case of Microsoft rushing a product to market before checking it out thoroughly.
Re:Linux & Communism (Score:1)
Right, open-source/free software is more like "From each according to his desire, to each according to his desire." Unlike things like weat and bread and iron, Software is limitless. Everyone can have everything.
We don't know how bad things are in north korea, but here are some pictures of hungry children. -- CNN
Why can't the chinese create their own OS? (Score:1)
Re:BIG News from Carololina (Score:1)
Here are some quotes from Eric's webpage...
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will
preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."
-- Patrick Henry, speech of June 5 1788
Such are a well regulated militia, composed of the freeholders, citizen and husbandman, who take up arms to preserve their
property, as individuals, and their rights as freemen.
-- "M.T. Cicero", in a newspaper letter of 1788 touching the "militia"
referred to in the Second Amendment to the Constitution.
That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of
conscience; or to prevent the people of the United states who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms...
-- Samuel Adams, in "Phila. Independent Gazetteer", August 20, 1789
[The disarming of citizens] has a double effect, it palsies the hand and brutalizes the mind: a habitual disuse of physical forces
totally destroys the moral [force]; and men lose at once the power of protecting themselves, and of discerning the cause of their
oppression.
-- Joel Barlow, "Advice to the Privileged Orders", 1792-93
A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety,
is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
-- John Stuart Mill, writing on the U.S. Civil War in 1862
Every Communist must grasp the truth, 'Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.'
-- Mao Tse-tung, 1938, inadvertently endorsing the Second Amendment.
Eric is a free man living in a country that has the 1st and 2 Amendments to the Bill of Rights.
So he is entitled to express his opinion regardless of your illiterate rant.
You aren't even brave enough to user your real name. You're the disgrace. And you can't even post a msg without creating a mess...
troll (Score:1)
We don't know how bad things are in north korea, but here are some pictures of hungry children. -- CNN
Re:Great Firewall and Linux (Score:2)
Re:GPL (Score:2)
Re:GPL (Score:1)
Re:OUS study abroad program (Score:1)
- Leto-II
Non Microsoft OS in China (Score:1)
Re:Systemised defects.. not on same rack (Score:1)
Re:From a Slashdot user in Beijing (Score:1)
You know you could say the same thing about the US. All newspapers are controlled by corporations and when was the last time you read anything good about China in teh Western press? BTW, China's probably a lot different than you expected, eh?
A foreign linux user in Shanghai
Re:Missing the point. (Score:1)
And killing drug dealers a hell of a lot more humanitarian than letting them cause killings of innocents by peddeling(sp?) their wares.
Re:All I wanted was a reply (Score:1)
OK, I am not forty, merely in my late 20s. However, I can tell you this much--I make use of the fact I learned programming in my pre-teen and early teenager years almost every single day. If I did not learn programming during those years, I would probably be working in a grogery store today. Instead, I am doing very well in the computer industry here in San Francisco.
- Sam
Re:confused (Score:1)
heheh (Score:1)
but then again...you knew that already...because when you read a news article, you read between the lines. You understand that generally what a Chinese official says shouldn't be immediately taken for face value, much like any other official, US. or no.
but like i said...you're a smart one...you knew that...
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
Re:You need some troll practice... (Score:1)
Am I incoherent because I argued that execution of criminals cuts down on crime and deaths of innocents? Or am I fascist/stalinist because I advocate a systematic 'self-help' system that gives the homeless jobs and allows them to work and feed themselves? (as opposed to boozing all day, that is).
Roughly half of the US still supports capital punishment for murderers. Are they fascists too? Why should we draw the line at the crime of murder? Especially when drug dealers and drug traffiking leads to deaths of all sorts?
I've said enough. Neither of you have come up with any coherent arguments yet. I hate to say it, but at this point, either put up, or shut up.
Re:You need some troll practice... (Score:1)
Whoopsie. I come from China.
Darn, there goes that point, eh?
Re:confused (Score:1)
Re:Or, why did they choose linux? (Score:1)
BSD made no effort to remain compatable with the original Unix and when BSD added networking SysV made minimal effort to remain compatable when porting it over. Thats why we have SrV today...
Linux however made a sereous effort to maintain compatability with existing Unix...
Your right about BSD being more mature, better tweeked etc... But that little "It's not a REAL Unix" slur is one I have had just about enough of...
BSD is a fork... Unix in name only...
Linux is a nockoff.. Unix in image only...
The offical code is SCO Unix...
Being branched from Unix means nothing...
BSD works better becouse it's been around longer and had more work done to it.
Thats all...
Re:From a Slashdot user in Beijing (Score:1)
Oh, and China is certainly different than I expected, but I think I did a pretty good job of not expecting too much before I came. I was already a communist at heart, so I was quite a bit dissapointed at the amount of capitalism going around though..
-Toby
Not all wrong.. just most of it. (Score:1)
First of all, china is indeed very open. For instance, the Great China Firewall really only blocks nytimes.com and the like. (That and anti-communitic and some tian an men sites) I just moved back from china and I never encountered problems surfing. CNN worked... just the LA times and NY times could i not bring up. (and that was solved by a very well known (in china) site www.anonymizer.com
Linux in China (LiC) is a good thing. People fear linux's source (via Red Flag) being closed, what they don't understand is that would do nothing to stop the spread of "real" linux throughout the market. The Chinese people are EXTREMELY smart. They would not use Red Flag if they did not have to. No one BUYs software (not how we think of it.) You get whatever you want for 1.20 USD. If RH 7.2 is better than RF 1.2 then you can bet your money on RH Linux flying and RF dying. In the computer field, china has THE market economy.
now for the more minor issue of languages. Yes people are starting to learn pin-yin (the romanization of the chinese language) but no one prefers it. They learn it because you can type with it (and have software to turn it into chinese characters).. other than that, it is quite useless. They will not give up their chinese characters. I understand why. They are beautiful, and they are effecient once you know then well enough.
That seems like enough for one post. Feel free to email me @ djtansey@bigfoot.com
Zai Jian,
david (just had to note that the last guy to write "zai jian" spelled it incorrectly... i am picky about things like that)
confused (Score:2)
Re:Great Firewall and Linux (Score:2)
Maybe this is a good sign for Linux (Score:1)
Kinda goes with the saying about rice... 1 billion chinese can't be wrong.
Re:If you think communism means "no government"... (Score:1)
As I mentioned earlier, "liberal" used to mean what "libertarian" does today. This stuff happens all the time.
I wont't delve into the rest of your post, because I simply don't have the time, but you are being terribly myopic in your political definitions here. Liberal still means one who advocates laissez-faire Adam Smith style market economy; it's just in the USA that it is used (mostly) as a means for conservative Republicans to deride their political opponents. Libertarian still means, im most of the world, someone who champions personal freedom (not just market freedom) above all, specially those that do it in a vocal, rebellious manner.
As a side note, the ideology you attribute to American liberals, a soft version of socialism, is what's called elsewhere social-democrat politics. But the Democrats are far from being social-democrats in the European sense. In fact, most Europeans would classify both the Democrats and the Republicans as right wing, only of a different shade of blue.
Great Firewall and Linux (Score:2)
Re:Linux User == Communist (Score:1)
A lot have a problem with corporatism and some even criticize corporatism from a capitalist perspective.
Now what's your beef? don't you believe in competition? You have the Microsoft model and you have the linux model, you have the US gov view of technological progress and you have the Chinese gov view of the progress. How about "let the best one win" instead of assuming that what you happen to believe in must be right.
Re:communists need to be butchered!! (Score:1)
often can't spell a single complete sentence correctly?
Re:Great Firewall and Linux (Score:2)
Actually China and much of S.E. Asia really proves software as price isn't a factor.
Well it proves how good the marketing department is anyway "Anytime people can have their freedom"
Missing the point. (Score:3)
--Shoeboy
I'm sorry, your wrong. (Score:2)
I realize that flaming people about something you know nothing of is common practice on the Internet, but that doesn't make you any less of a moron.
We don't know how bad things are in north korea, but here are some pictures of hungry children. -- CNN
So what? (Score:2)
nothing to do with Communism (Score:3)
China is no more a communist country than the US. In fact, if you've ever lived there you'll find its probably more capitalist.
Anyway, the Chinese govt isn't embracing Linux because it is Open Source. It's embracing it because it is FREE. As in Beer.
the 50 quid a machine that Microsoft charge OEMs is a lot of money for the average Chinese. Multiply it by the number of PCs that belong to the Chinese govt and the effort they spend promoting Linux is well spent.
everything to do with Communism (Score:2)
1)because every government that has called itself communist has turned out to be totalitarian (not exactly a logical proof, but if it walks like a duck...)
2)because in a totally communist state, the government controls all productive functions, not just simple industrial or agricultural ones, but also intellectual ones.
Free markets and free speech go together, because speech, thought, and persuasion are really just more market products. Since humans are always the true basic "means of production", communism is total slavery. Communism (especially under it's inexplicably friendlier name, socialism) is always sold under the vague premise that the machines will do the work, and why should anyone but the government own the machines? Marx based his whole theory on endless plenty coming from automation (he didn't anticipate the way human desires grow with every slightest whif of prosperity; what we consider terrible hardship of the modern Russian is a paradise of material wealth compared to the widespread poverty and starvation that Marx saw).
No newspaper regularly prints articles calling its owners crooks and calling on people to attack them, so why would a government-owned newspaper act differently? After all, they own all means of production; even if you go out on your own and build a working newspaper printer out of nothing, they then own it.
Besides,democracy doesn't preclude totalitarianism, only dictatorship. Totalitarianism and libertarianism (used to be called liberalism until that term was converted into a code-phrase for moderate socialism) are the proper opposites.
Totalitarianism/libertarianism is a matter of the degree of government control versus individual choice (the liberty issue).
Democracy/dictatorship is a matter of who sets the laws of the states: the general population, or a single individual (the control of government, meaning violence, issue).
Capitalism/communism is a matter of who owns the property: the government or individuals (the control of means of production, meaning labor, issue).
They are distict, but not completely seperate. Communism and totalitarianism go together like stupidity and ignorance. Democracy tends toward liberty, until the plebs learn that they can vote for bread and circuses... and it works, for a little while ("We, the weak and stupid, contributing little anyway, and unable to earn what we think is our right (since that's what the best and brightest get and we're just as good as they are, right?), vote to have the strong and intelligent do all the work and just give us what they produce." bread and circuses? general purpose welfare and health care? it's the same message either way).
GPL (Score:3)
Problem is that we don't even know yet if the GPL holds in the US, and just because it holds in the US, doesn't mean the Chinese government will play by the rules.
Go get your free Palm V (25 referrals needed only!)
Open Source and the Numbers Game (Score:3)
Between the two of them (or even by themselves), they have numbers to (statistically speaking) produce a quite few geniouses and quite a large number of superbly intelligent people. Open Source, being software without secrets that can be understood and analyzed if one is determined to spend the time, enables these people (and anybody else who cares to) to join the programming feast of Linux, Apache, BSD, etc. I would think that over in many ways we will be starting to see the center of gravity of the software world shift away from silicon valley